§ LORD CARSON had the following Question on the Paper—To ask His Majesty's Government if attention has been called to the case of certain pensioners of the Royal Irish Constabulary, who have been compelled to leave their homes under threat of assassination, and who have been refused any assistance to enable them to come to this country or elsewhere for safety on the grounds that they do not come under the demobilisation scheme; and whether the Government are prepared to assist such men having regard to the position in which they find themselves by reason of their loyal services in the past.
§ The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I have put this Question upon the Paper in consequence of a communication I have received signed by six ex-sergeants and ex-constables of the Royal Irish Constabulary whose position is as follows. They are retired members of that loyal force who arc living in various parts of the south and west of Ireland with their families. In each case they were threatened that unless they left their homes in obedience to notice they received they would lie assassinated. Your Lordships are aware That in many cases where the Royal Irish Constabulary have tried to settle down in their old homes such, assassination has been carried out.
§ I think your Lordships may take it from me that, in the south and west of Ireland, no retired police constable is safe, just as no man who fought in the war is safe. These unfortunate men were obliged, in these circumstances, to remove their families. They proceeded to Dublin, hoping that there they might receive such assistance as would enable them to come into some place of safety. I understand that His Majesty's Government have a scheme for helping members of the Constabulary who were demobilised under the new arrangements which become necessary by reason of the Irish surrender, under which they are allowed to come to this country or go elsewhere into a position of safely, and are meanwhile assisted as regards the families from whom they are separated.
§
Here is the account, in their own written document, which they have sent to the Government.—
We left home and took refuge here in Dublin. We reported our arrival, and gave copies of our notices to the Inspector-General. To our great
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surprise he told us that we did not come undor the schomo already referred to. We thereupon I interviewed Mr. Cope, the Under-Secretary, and petitioned him to endeavour to have us brought under the same conditions which applied to our comrades, or, as an alternative, that a sum of two or three shillings a day might be granted to us, and also our train fare here. He did not hold out any hopes that he would do so, and therefore we are obliged to make this earnest appeal to you to bring us within the demobilisation scheme or the scheme relating to civilian refugees.
They continue thus, and I am reading their own words—
Our position is unique and deplorable. The I Government whom we served, and for which service we are now banished, refuses us aid, because we are not in active service, and the civilian I scheme rejects us because we have been. We I respectfully submit that we are refugees by reason of faithful and active service to His Majesty's I Government, and thereforo claim assistance from that Government. Furthermore, we contend that we come within the ambit of all that relates to I the refugees, for whoso disturbance and maintenance the Irish Provisional Government holds itself responsible, and I His Majesty's Government will not suffer financial loss. Sir, realise if you can how desperate our circumstances are. Each of us is approaching sixty years of age, and beyond our labour. We are trying to maintain ourselves here and our families elsewhere. These families are hounded down, whilst each of our countrymen j is our potential assassin. We pray you, therefore, I to move on our behalf. We, the old members of the R.T.C., who never failed in loyalty, petition I your Government in this the hour of our greatest misfortune, to come to our aid.
These are men any one of whom may be I assassinated any day.
§ They are not Field-Marshals, and I dare say they could be assassinated without very much attention being called to the matter in this House or elsewhere, but I think that if the Government fail to provide for these men the assistance for which they have asked, they will be taking upon themselves a responsibility, and they will be held responsible in your Lordships' House and, I hope, in the country, if anything untoward should happen to these men. I hope the Government will see | their way, in such cases as these, to make ' no difference between men who are demobilised under the present scheme and those who have been pensioners for some time, for the position in each instance is exactly the same—because they have served their Government loyally, they cannot live in Ireland.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDMy Lords, the attention of the Government has been drawn to cases similar to those now mentioned by the noble and learned Lord— 51 cases of members of the Royal Irish Constabulary who are now pensioned and retired, and who, in the natural course of events, settled down in their homes in Ireland, and have now been driven out, or are being driven out, and compelled to seek refuge in this country. I hope that my information is correct, and that the information conveyed by Lord Carson is exaggerated. So far as the Irish Office is concerned, our information is that these cases are not, as he indicated, very numerous. By fax the larger portion of men in this position have, happily, remained unmolested, though the number of cases similar to those quoted by Lord Carson is very serious indeed—serious enough to cause the Government grave concern.
The difficulty of dealing with the matter as Lord Carson suggested was that it is difficult to select one class of refugees, and accord to that particular group what, at the present moment, is not accorded to others who are suffering from similar difficulties. In the special cases mentioned by Lord Carson, the trouble seems to be in every case the same—that it is loyalty to the British Crown, or refusal to take part or lot in the misdemeanours which have taken place in Ireland, which has brought these men into this serious difficulty. The problem of dealing with these people, whether or not they be members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, is the same problem, and that is why I say there is this difficulty of selecting any special class of refugees for specially favourable treatment. Lord Carson referred to the Committee which is sitting under an honourable Member of the other House, Sir Samuel Hoare, which deals with cases of all persons who are refugees here, irrespective of the cause, whatever it be, which has made it impossible for them to remain in Ireland. The policy in pursuance of which that Committee has been established, is that the Provisional Government is responsible for seeing that every individual within its area of jurisdiction is left undisturbed in his rights, in his person, and in his property. Your Lordships have before you correspondence on this subject, in which the Provisional Government agree in terms that they accept that responsibility.
That correspondence is before your Lordships, and has been presented to this House, and Sir Samuel Hoare's Committee is empowered, while these troubles continue, to afford such help to refugees as 52 may be necessary in the circumstances of any individual cases, but it is not the function of that Committee to compensate the victims of persecution for the losses which they have sustained. That Committee does not, and cannot, relieve the Provisional Government of the liability which rests upon them, and which they have themselves deliberately accepted. I hope that the expectations may be realised, and that these troubles may diminish. If, on the other hand, at any future period it becomes clear that the undertakings solemnly given are not being implemented, a different question will arise, although at the present moment I do not think the time has come when it is possible to say that that is the case.
The pensioned members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, as I have already stated, are entitled to the assistance and help of Sir Samuel Hoare's Committee, as are all other persons who have been compelled by intimidation, or direct violence, to leave Ireland and seek refuge in this country, but any special assistance which is given to any particular class of refugees must, I think, be extended to all, and I therefore feel that the constables in question cannot he placed in a different category from those who are suffering from similar difficulties in Ireland.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWEMy Lords, the noble, Earl's reply is not, I am sure, intentionally unsympathetic, but I do not think the noble and learned Lord behind me can regard it as meeting the case. Personally, I do not regard it as meeting the case, owing, indeed, to the reason which makes me intervene in this debate —namely, that I was for a time head of the Irish Government, and some of these very men may very well have been constables while I was Viceroy of Ireland. Therefore I am not at all prepared to take the line which the noble Earl opposite and the Government take, of saying that these men can only be treated precisely as any civilian might be treated, who, for some reason or another, does not get on with the Provisional Government, or cannot be protected by the Provisional Government, and wants to come away. I can quite appreciate that it may not be possible for the Government to say they will pay the expenses of, or in other ways support with money, private persons, however pitiable their condition may be, who for one reason or another want to leave Ireland; but I should have 53 thought that the proper course to take was to treat these men, for this purpose, as though they were still members of His Majesty's Forces.
After all, in those oases where they are in danger, they are in danger because they have been members of the Royal Irish Constabulary. Surely that does give them a claim upon His Majesty's Government totally different from that which can be advanced by any ordinary civilian. I trust, therefore, that the noble Earl will see that this question is reconsidered, so far as it applies to these particular people. When the noble Earl says that it is difficult to classify different cases, I confess I cannot see that, because the classification is quite simple owing to the fact that these men are constabulary pensioners.
§ LORD CARSONMy Lords, with your Lordships' permission I should like to make a few observations in reply to what has fallen from the noble Earl opposite. Before I do so, may I thank the noble Marquess who has just spoken, for the manner in which he has treated my Question. It is a strange thing to find myself getting some assistance for the abandoned heroes who served your country in Ireland from a lifelong political opponent, and getting nothing but sneers and objections from those who used to fight the battle of the Union as if they were sincere.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDLord Carson is only speaking with the permission of the House. It is not usual in those circumstances to make an attack such as Lord Carson has just made upon me, of sneering. I have never done anything of the kind, and I repudiate his allegation with emphasis.
§ LORD CARSONMy Lords, I care nothing for the noble Lord's lectures. I have known him long enough to know the value of them, and to know the value of his opinion, and therefore it is no use for him to try to lecture me here. I am dealing with realities, with tin; case of six men who have written to me, who have been driven out by reason of the policy of this Government after faithful and loyal service, and are being driven away from their wives and families, and hounded out of Ireland because the noble Earl and his Government ordered the troops to leave. No matter what the opprobrium or the lectures given me by the great man on the 54 seat opposite, I can assure your Lordships that I will speak for these men with all the vigour than I can command. 1 will tell your Lordships why.
It is very easy for the noble Earl to sit there and make a speech in peace, quietness and safety, making concessions to this murder gang in Ireland, but these are; five or six policemen who are on the run from the assassins. When I ask that they should get their fare over to this country and a separation allowance in order that they may be able to support themselves away from their families, what is the answer that the noble Earl gives me? That there are so many of them that we cannot do anything. Yes, there are so many of them that it does not matter how many of them are murdered. That is what it means. That is the reality of it. Let the noble Earl go over to Dublin; let him go and see these men and stay there for a while, and let him understand the reality of the situation. The Government ought to be ashamed of such an answer as has been given here. All I can say is that if anything happens to these men it is the noble Earl and those with whom he acts who are responsible and will be held responsible.
THE EARL OF DESARTMy Lords, if any of us speak with warmth on this subject my noble friend (Lord Crawford) must remember that it may be these very men, or at any rate men like these, who have I protected us in the past and served the: country faithfully, and whom we have known personally, and I would venture, following the Question put down by my noble and learned friend, to beg the Government to reconsider, and reconsider earnestly, their decision that these men should not come within the demobilisation scheme. It is true that there are many who may be able to stay in their homes, but even if there is the necessity of adding a large number of men to those who have the benefit of the demobilisation scheme, I most earnestly submit that that ought to be no objection whatever. I have only risen to ask my noble friend to urge on the Government that the cases of these men should be dealt with exactly as if the men were serving and about to be demobilised.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDI will take note of what Lord Desart has said, and see if it is possible to treat these men, as he 55 says, as if they were ordinarily demobilised constables under the existing scheme. I give no guarantee that the Government can see its way to change the decision that I have announced this evening, but I am ready to go into it again. I repeat to Lord Carson that he did not treat me fairly in saying that my answer conveyed anything in the nature of a sneer. I feel much too profoundly on some of these things to allow me to do anything of that kind.
§ LORD CARSONI beg to give notice that I will at an early date raise again the question of the disgraceful treatment of these police pensioners in Ireland.