Lords Sitting of 20 June 1922

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (WOLVERHAMPTON EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
LORD STRACHIE: My Lords, I desire to ask a Question, of which I have given private notice to the noble Earl, the Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Health. I wish to know whether he intends to proceed with the Wolverhampton Extension Bill on June 29 if no agreement is arrived at before then between the parties concerned; and, further, if no agreement is arrived at by that date, whether he will undertake to withdraw the Provisional Order Bill for such extension.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, I am glad that my noble friend has given me an opportunity of stating what has occurred. The Wolverhampton Town Council were informed in May that in view of the action taken by Parliament in similar cases the Government had come to the conclusion that they would not be warranted in proceeding with the Second Reading of the Bill unless an agreement was reached between the Town Council and the opposing authorities. A further letter was written by the Ministry to the Town Clerk of Wolverhampton just after Whitsuntide stating that if, by June 27, an agreement had not been reached, or hopeful negotiations with the opposing authorities were not then in hand, the Bill would be withdrawn. It is not the intention to proceed with the Second Reading of the Bill unless an agreement has been reached between the parties concerned, and if an agreement is not reached the Bill will be withdrawn.

SITUATION IN IRELAND.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, it was understood that there was to be a statement upon Ireland by His Majesty's Government to-day. I understand now that this is not going to be the
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case, and I should like, if I may, to ask the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack whether it is proposed to make a statement about Ireland to-day or not.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT BIRKENHEAD): My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Marquess for having given me private notice of his intention to put this Question. It was originally the intention of my right honourable friend, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, to make a more or less elaborate statement upon the subject of Ireland in another place, but within the last day or two he has formed the conclusion, which I share, that the state of affairs in Ireland at this moment is too fluid and too indeterminate to permit, at the moment of such a statement as that which he contemplates—and which, indeed, could alone be useful—being made in another place or this House. It is too early to state completely the results of the Election, and it is too early to discuss the inferences which it is proper and safe to draw from the results even so far as they are known to-day. So far as other conditions in Ireland are concerned, I could not, at this moment, tell your Lordships much more than has appeared in the newspapers, though, of course, one could attempt some general observations in the light of additional information. The suggestion I would venture to make to the noble Marquess is that, watching the proceedings from day to day, he should be good enough to repeat his Question, perhaps when the Elections are concluded.

HOUSE OF LORDS REFORM.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack will remember that three weeks ago I asked him a Question as to the date on which the Government proposed to introduce in this House the Resolutions dealing with House of Lords reform. He then said, expressing, I think, the very general feeling of your Lordships, that it would be agreeable if these Resolutions could be moved by the noble Marquess who leads the House. Unfortunately, his health lately has been indifferent. The noble and learned Viscount also told your Lordships that although some postponement was advisable in view of the circumstances, he considered

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that the Resolutions might be brought before your Lordships' notice by the end of June or the beginning of July. I have obtained the Lord Chancellor's permission to ask him whether he can now give us any further information as to the date on which these Resolutions will be introduced.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, when I answered the Question of the noble Marquess a few weeks ago I had consulted some of my colleagues, but had not had the opportunity of discussing the matter with the noble Marquess who leads the House. It would, undoubtedly, be a great misfortune if it became necessary for these Resolutions to be moved by anyone but the noble Marquess. Not only is it convenient that proposals dealing with the constitution and political functions of this House should be moved by the one who leads it, but the noble Marquess has given a degree of personal attention to, and bestowed an amount of industry upon, this question, which would really astonish those of your Lordships who know how busily he has been engaged for months and years in the foreign affairs of this country. I do not merely use the language of compliment when I say that I know of no noble Lord who sits in this House who can move these Resolutions with anything like tie authority and knowledge that the noble Marquess can employ.
As to the date: When I answered the noble Marquess on the last occasion I said the Government hoped to be able to move these Resolutions either in the last week of June or, at the latest, in the first week of July. Since I made that announcement we have been in communication with the noble Marquess, and he now informs us that he does not think it is too sanguine a hope to say that he may be in his place in this House, at the latest, about July 15, in order to move them. We are entirely in your Lordships' hands in this matter. If you think that the assurance which I gave three weeks ago, or the statement that we hoped to move these Resolutions in the first week in July, is imperfectly redeemed by the presence of the noble Marquess by July 15, it will be respectfully considered by the Government. I hope, however, that your Lordships will be unwilling to deny to the noble Marquess, who has suffered so severely from ill-health in the last few weeks, the satisfaction of feeling that all the labour and time he has bestowed on this
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question is not thrown away, so far as his own personal explanation is concerned.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I feel sure that everyone will share the view of the noble and learned Viscount that if it is possible for the noble Marquess who leads the House to be present to introduce these Resolutions himself the House will gain greatly by his exposition of the subject. I can bear out what the Lord Chancellor has said with regard to the personal devotion paid to this question by the noble Marquess. He has given a great deal of time to it, as I have every reason to know, although, as the Lord Chancellor has said, his ordinary duties at the Foreign Office have allowed him very little leisure. It certainly would be a great disappointment to the noble Marquess, and to myself, if he were not present to state his case in his own way, as he has presided over the Government Committee which has been considering this matter in full detail.
Something, of course, depends upon the date at which the Government hope to conclude this session. Obviously, it would be a great misfortune and unworthy of this House if the subject of our future were not given the fullest consideration possible. I am sure—no one will agree more readily than the Government—that these Resolutions must have full and careful examination and discussion, with sufficient leisure after they are placed on the Table for noble Lords to study them thoroughly, and thus be able to state their views on this supremely difficult subject. Something also depends upon whether the House is likely to meet again in the autumn. We see in the public Press that there is every probability that the measures relating to Ireland may compel Parliament to meet in the autumn. I do not expect the Government to say anything about that now, but the prospect of something being done in pursuance of the Resolutions, in whatever form they may be passed and in whatever form the Government may decide to pursue the subject, is, of course, of great importance. No one can imagine that these Resolutions are to be a mere academic expression of opinion on the part of your Lordships' House. I assume it is intended that they shall be translated into legislative form as soon as possible. It is not, in my judgment, possible to say more at this moment.
We are glad to know that there is a prospect of the noble Marquess being

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restored to sufficient health to enable him to carry out this duty about the middle of July. It is so important that the noble Marquess should be here himself that I should be unwilling to see this duty entrusted even to the very competent hands of the Lord Chancellor, or to the noble Earl (the Earl of Balfour) whose presence in this House, I hope he will allow me to say, gives me personally, as to all noble Lords, so much pleasure.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, nobody knows better than I do how great are the labour and time which the noble Marquess who leads this House has given to this subject, and I entirely join with the noble Marquess who has just spoken and the other speakers, in saying how very sorry I should be if he were not able himself to introduce these Resolutions to your Lordships' notice. I cannot, however, go quite so far as I understand my noble friend who has just sat down to have gone. It seems to me to be of almost imperative importance that these Resolutions should be placed before your Lordships' House in time for ample discussion during the course of this session, and if, most unfortunately, my noble friends health is not sufficiently restored by July 13 I hope it follows, from what the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack has said, that he or some other member of His Majesty's Government will then introduce the Resolutions in the place of my noble friend, the Leader of the House. I will ask the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack that Question in the first instance.
There is another point to which I wish to draw his attention. I am not aware whether he saw in the public Press this morning a statement by Mr. Austen Chamberlain in another place—I do not know whether he was accurately reported or not—to the effect that he was afraid an autumn session could not be avoided, and that if an autumn session became necessary he would take care that Parliament adjourned early in July.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I do not think that was accurately reported.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Then I merely draw my noble and learned friend's attention to that, and point out that it would be a very sorry conclusion to our friendly negotiations on this subject if we
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were to look forward to a debate on July 13 and Parliament adjourned a day or two afterwards.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, before the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack answers there is one other observation which I should like to make. If it be the sense of the House, which appears to be probable, that we should desire to wait until July 13 before taking this discussion, I wish to observe that it is impossible that a satisfactory discussion could be concluded within the time mentioned. It would, therefore, be better, in order that time may not be lost, to have some definite understanding as to how the discussion is to progress. If, at the conclusion of his speech, the noble Marquess who leads the House could lay the Resolutions on the Table, then we should be in a position to discuss them, and it is possible that it might, suit your Lordships' convenience to resume the discussion on Monday, July 17. That would give time to study the Resolutions before proceeding to a debate. I wish to point out that I know of no questions that are likely to present larger problems of principle as well as of detail—those of detail no less important than those of principle—than these Resolutions. To think of discussing them at a single sitting, and at a first hearing, seems to me absurd. We might, therefore, definitely say that Monday, July 17, should be consecrated to the consideration of what the noble Marquess has laid before the House, in the full knowledge of that of which it consists. I would ask the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack whether he can throw any light upon that point.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, if I may deal first with some observations which fell from Lord Selborne, it is most assuredly the view of the Government that your Lordships should be allowed the most ample time in which to consider and reach a conclusion upon Resolutions which so deeply affect and modify the historic constitution of this House. Lord Selborne has uttered an apprehension that it might be the intention of the Government, in view of our obligations in the autumn in relation to Ireland, to adjourn early in July, and he thought that Mr. Chamberlain had made a statement to this effect in another place, yesterday. I read what Mr. Chamberlain said, and I certainly should be

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astonished if he said that it was the intention of the Government to adjourn early in July. I did not so read that which he said. Indeed, we should, I think, with difficulty be acquitted of the charge of disingenuousness if, after the repeated postponements of this very important discussion, we invited your Lordships to attend here on July 14, and disappeared ourselves some days previously. It is, of course, the desire of the Government that this matter should be most adequately discussed.
It must be clear, as Mr. Chamberlain pointed out in another place yesterday, that it will be necessary for us to meet in the autumn. In those circumstances, what is contemplated is that there should be a full preliminary and general discussion of the important matters which will be presented in these Resolutions, and then the subject can be exhaustively resumed in the autumn, in the interval of such discussion as becomes necessary in this House upon Irish affairs, and, if and when a conclusion is reached, as I hope it will be reached, as to the steps proper to be taken, and the date of such steps, in order to give effect to those Resolutions, if and when the Resolutions are adopted by your Lordships, those steps can be effectively taken when the House meets in the autumn. I think I have dealt with all the points which noble Lords have raised.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, I asked another Question. If my noble friend were, unfortunately, prevented from coming here on the date named, July 15, may I take it that some other member of the Government would introduce the Resolutions?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think the noble Earl may certainly assume that I or one of my noble friends will undertake, however inadequately by comparison, that task, but I know the noble Earl would not wish to tie us pedantically, for instance, to a single day, supposing that the noble Marquess said quite definitely that he would be present on Monday.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: It will be more days than one?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Certainly.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (THE EARL OF CRAWFORD): My Lords, I should like for the convenience of the House generally to say that, with your Lordships' agreement, I propose to move, at the adjournment to-day, that the House assemble for public business at 4.30 p.m. to-morrow. Ministers of the Crown, and, I believe, many other Peers as well, desire to welcome the Prince of Wales, and, should the House agree, it would be convenient to postpone the beginning of business. I shall move that the House meet at 4.15 p.m. and that public business begin at 4.30 p.m.

SOLICITORS BILL. [H.L.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to make further provision in respect of the qualifications of persons proposing to become or to practise as solicitors, and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read la.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read la, and to be printed.

MILK AND DAIRIES (AMENDMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to postpone for a further period the operation of the Milk and Dairies (Consolidation) Act, 1915, and the Milk and Dairies (Scotland) Act, 1914, to make further provision with regard to the sale of milk, and for the purposes connected therewith, and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read la.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

CONSTABULARY (IRELAND) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read 1a, and to be printed.
LAW OF PROPERTY Bill. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments.
NEATH CORPORATION BILL.
Read 2a.
SWANSEA CORPORATION BILL.
Read 2a.
FIFE TRUST ESTATE BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (No. 4) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a(according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

TREATIES OF WASHINGTON BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (LORD LEE OF FAREHAN): My Lords, the Treaties, five in number, with two supplements, which were signed at Washington, have now been published for more than four months, and I think I may assume that their general scope and provisions are familiar to your Lordships. So far as one can ascertain, they have met with universal agreement in this country—at any rate, there has been no note of dissent which I have been able to discover—and I am sure it will not be expected that on this occasion, moving the Second Reading of this Bill, I should attempt anything in the nature of a review of the Treaties as a whole.
Your Lordships might wish, however, to know what is the position with regard to ratification at the present time. It is stipulated in each one of these Treaties that it shall be ratified by the different Powers in accordance with their respective constitutional methods, and that is in process of being done. In the meantime, it is necessary to introduce domestic legislation to implement certain details of the Treaties, which, otherwise, would be in conflict with the existing law or might infringe the rights of individuals. The position with regard to ratification I believe to be as follows. It is, of course, complicated by varying national rules and constitutional requirements.
Taking the signatories to the two particular measures which are dealt with in the present Bill, in the United States the Treaties have already been ratified in the sense that they have been passed with the advice and consent of the Senate, which is of
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course essential and which has been achieved, if I may say so, with gratifying and somewhat exceptional promptitude. There is, I believe, a necessity for some minor enabling legislation in the United States, but otherwise we may say that the ratification is practically complete. In France a Bill for the ratification of the Treaties has been submitted to Parliament, and has been referred to the Foreign Relations Committee. In that case the assent of Parliament is required before the Treaties can be promulgated by the President. I believe that the position in Italy is practically the same as in France. In Japan, I understand, no Parliamentary authority or legislation is required, but to a certain extent the position there is that the Government is waiting until other Powers have ratified. I think we have every reason to suppose that there will be no question about ratification, more particularly as the principal delegate of the Japanese Government at Washington, Baron Kato, has now become Prime Minister. As we know, he is an ardent and convinced supporter of the provisions of these Treaties.
With regard to the British Empire the procedure varies. In the Dominions Parliamentary approval is required in every case, I believe, and as I was coining to this House I saw on the tape the statement that the Canadian Parliament yesterday unanimously approved the whole of the Treaties. I believe that matters are well advanced in Australia, and that the complete assent of the Dominions will follow very shortly. In any event, ratification, so far as the British Empire is concerned, is a matter of course and will be executed without question.
In the meantime, it is necessary, and I believe this is an appropriate moment, to pass the necessary enabling legislation, and that is the origin of the present Bill which I ask you to read a second time to-day. Only two of the Treaties passed at Washington require any enabling legislation. They are the Treaty for the Limitation of Naval Armament and the Treaty to protect neutrals and non-combatants at sea in time of war, and to prevent use in war of noxious gases and chemicals; and only certain isolated provisions of these require legislation. I understand that some of your Lordships were a little puzzled by the fact that no provisions appear in the Bill with regard to noxious gases and chemicals, but the reason is very simple. No Parliamentary

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legislation is required to make that part of the Treaty effective. The reason the words appear in the Preamble to the present Bill is that the Preamble is in the nature of an accurate description of the Treaty, which otherwise might be difficult to identify.
Before I come to the actual details of the present Bill I feel bound to say that its provisions and its wording can give no adequate indication of the very heavy burden of responsibility which rested upon the British Delegation at Washington, and, if I may say so, particularly upon the representatives of the Admiralty there present, because under the Treaty for the Limitation of Naval Armament we made undoubtedly a voluntary surrender of our historic supremacy on the seas; we did it in trust and in the interests of world peace and, I might add, of world solvency. It was a free-will offering on our part, as, indeed, on the part of other countries, but particularly on our part, which is certainly unparalleled in our history, if not in the history of the world, and one of profound and epoch-making significance. The basic principle was that we should accept a standard of naval strength which was equality with the United States of America, and, of course, corresponding ratios with regard to the other navies. This was not only a new orientation of naval strength, but a new portent in world politics and the relations existing, and which will exist in the future, between the English-speaking peoples.
After all, there is, I believe, a spiritual as well as a material side to these Treaties, and the fact that the British Empire and the United States of America whole-heartedly and almost spontaneously, agreed that their interests, and the interests of the future peace and solvency of the world, could be safeguarded, and perhaps best safeguarded, by sea power on the basis of equality between the British Empire and America, is, I venture to say, perhaps worth more to our security than a mere numerical margin of superiority in either ships or men. We took this responsibility with our eyes open, fully realising that we ran thereby at any rate a theoretical risk, a risk which is inherent in the fact that we, far more than any other nation in the world, are dependent upon security for our prosperity and, indeed, for our existence. But in the spirit of trust which I have described we accepted the new
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standards. And we have gone further. We are actually giving effect to them, without waiting for ratification by other signatory Powers. We are doing this because without mutual trust and confidence the Agreements concluded at Washington will inevitably break down, and the world will be thrown back once more into the old welter of suspicion and competitive shipbuilding, bringing us all inevitably to financial ruin.
With that foreword I will come to the detailed provisions of the Bill. I want to make clear to your Lordships, in the first place, that it is, of course, the duty of the Governments concerned and, in connection with the Naval Treaty, mainly of one Department, the Admiralty, to give effective force to the main Articles of the Treaties—that is to say, the Articles dealing with the limitation of total tonnage of capital ships which we shall be permitted to retain, the reduction of superfluous tonnage by scrapping under certain very clearly defined rules, restriction of the size and armament of future capital ships, aircraft carriers, and cruisers—not, I regret to say, of submarines, but to that subject I will come in a moment—and the prohibition of development of naval bases in certain areas of the Pacific. All those are matters of governmental responsibility, and require no legislation. But legislation is required in order to restrain private individuals and private firms from doing things which the Government would not be permitted to do under the terms of the Treaties. The necessity for this is obvious, and as it involves a certain restriction of the liberty of the subject the assent of Parliament is essential.
Clause 1 of the Bill provides, as a safeguard against any infraction of the Treaty by an individual, that before a warship can in future be built by a private firm a licence must be granted by the Admiralty. This licence not only covers building but sale. As will be seen in Clause 1 (1) (b), there is a provision protecting individuals from any arbitrary or bureaucratic exercise of this right of licence so long as the actual provisions of the Treaty are not being infringed. The granting of a licence without which warships cannot be constructed in future, involves, of course, in addition, the granting of full information by the builder to the Admiralty, and the right of inspection in yards where such ships are being built. I will at once relieve your

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Lordships of any anxiety with regard to the expense by stating that no extra staff will be required for this purpose, as the existing staff of the Naval Construction Department will be sufficient to deal with these cases, which, after all, will be very rare.
Clause 2 deals with the penalties which will be incurred if individuals break any of these provisions, or take action which will be in conflict with the Treaty. It will be observed that the penalties are of three kinds. There is, first of all, a fine, which perhaps would not be very effective; secondly, there is imprisonment; and thirdly—which I think will be the most effective part of the penalty—there is power to compel forfeit to His Majesty of the ship which is under construction. Clause 3 is necessary to deal with the position where this country is a neutral in any future war, and where it is essential that the existing conditions of the Foreign Enlistment Act shall not be infringed, although the Admiralty might previously have granted a licence before such a war broke out to a company or firm to construct a ship. This clause ensures that that licence is not final, and that the existing provisions of the Foreign Enlistment Act will continue to apply in order to safeguard our neutrality.
I now come to Clause 4, which is a very important portion of the Bill. That clause implements what were known as the Root Resolutions, which arose out of, and had their origin in, the submarine controversy. As your Lordships know, the British Delegation in Washington made a proposal, and did their utmost, to abolish submarines altogether for all purposes in war. They were not successful in carrying the Conference with them, but so much sympathy was excited in the United States of America by our proposal that, as soon as it was rejected, the United States Government itself came forward and took the initiative in limiting the use of submarines in war against commerce by Resolutions which would force submarines to conform in every respect to the laws of war which at present are applicable to surface craft. That was a most important and significant reform, because, if accepted and carried out, it practically rendered the submarine useless as a weapon of war against commerce.
Perhaps the best way to indicate what was the real scope of the Resolutions,
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and the Treaty based upon them, is to quote the words of their author, Mr. Root, used by him when presenting the Treaty to the Conference. He said—
"You will observe that this Treaty does not undertake to codify International Law in respect of a visit, search, or seizure of merchant vessels. What it does undertake is to state the most important and effective provisions of the law of nations in regard to the treatment of merchant vessels by belligerent warships, and to declare that submarines are under no circumstances exempt from those humane rules for the protection of the lives of innocent non-combatants. It undertakes further to stigmatise violation of these rules and the doing to death of women and children and non-combatants by the wanton destruction of merchant vessels upon which they are passengers as a violation of the laws of war, which, as between these five great Powers and all other civilised nations who shall give their adherence, shall be henceforth punished as an act of piracy. It undertakes, further, to prevent temptation to the violation of these rules by the use of submarines for the capture of merchant vessels, and to prohibit that use altogether. It undertakes, further, to denounce the use of poisonous gases and chemicals in war as they were used, to the horror of all civilisation, in the war of 1914–18."
The Treaty carries out that aspiration of Mr. Root, and the signatory Powers are bound as between themselves to observe those restrictions and to invite all other civilised Powers to adhere to them.
What Clause 4 of this Bill does is to give the necessary legislative sanction for the trial and punishment of offenders, including neutrals, against the existing rules of warfare as declared in the first part of the Treaty; incidentally, it goes further in one notable respect in that it deprives possible offenders of the old excuse that they were acting under orders. The further prohibition of the use of submarines altogether against commerce, which is contained in Article IV of the Treaty, whilst binding on the signatory Powers from that moment—at least, from the moment of ratification—is not yet part of International Law and cannot be until other Powers have adhered to it. Therefore, it does not come within the penalties in Clause 4 of the present Bill. But that is comparatively unimportant, because if the prohibition of the use of submarines for these purposes is effective, there is no need for the penalties which would be involved by a breach of the rules of war in their conduct of those operations.
Clauses 5 and 6 are purely formal, and I do not think any point arises upon them; but if any of your Lordships wish to ask questions of detail, I shall he glad to deal with them on the Committee or subsequent

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stages. Meanwhile, and in order to obviate any possible misunderstandings in America or elsewhere with regard to these apparent delays in ratifying the Treaties, which have been practically ratified in America already, I desire to point out and to repeat that the Government and the Admiralty, as the Navy Estimates of this year conclusively show, are already going ahead with the reductions both in ships and in men which are entailed in the Treaty, and are doing it precisely as if the Treaties had already been ratified. In this process the importance is recognised of carrying out scrupulously, not only in the letter but in the spirit, the provisions of the Treaty. I wish to emphasise that any attempt now to alter or vary the agreements come to and the details of the Treaty would, I feel sure, have a very unfortunate effect in arousing suspicions and delaying the general agreement with which we hope these Treaties will be received by all the signatory countries.
We are sometimes criticised for proceeding as rapidly as we are doing with regard to the implementing of these Treaties. There are some who suggest that we ought to show more caution; that we should wait and see; and I have received advice more than once to delay before proceeding any further. But we feel that it is unthinkable that any civilised nation should now go back upon the agreements which were come to so solemnly at Washington after three months of discussion, or that they should not honour the signatures of their plenipotentiaries. This being so, we think that it is only right and proper that the greatest naval Power should set the example and lead the way, as we are doing, and I trust that your Lordships' House and, indeed, Parliament as a whole, will approve and associate itself with the course which the Government are taking. I need not, I think, detain your Lordships any longer at this stage, repeating, however, that the Bill deals with many complicated matters and that many questions may arise which I shall be glad to elucidate if I have the opportunity. I ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading to the Bill.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Lee of Fareham.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, I do not think my noble friend the First Lord of the Admiralty was guilty of any exaggeration when he said that the British
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representatives at Washington had made a great sacrifice and had taken upon themselves a very heavy responsibility. That is absolutely true; but in my opinion they were absolutely right in the policy they pursued and in their willingness to take on their shoulders that grave responsibility. They must feel that they have been rewarded by the almost unanimous approval of their fellow countrymen, and, if they will allow me to say so in their presence, I think this is the most brilliant piece of diplomacy which England has had to its credit for a very long time; it stands out in very startling contrast from other efforts, not equally successful, which have been made elsewhere.
What are the reasons which so abundantly justify, at any rate in my judgment, the policy pursued at Washington by our representatives? There is, as my noble friend has said, the imperative necessity for economy, which is our first and greatest need to-day, as it was after the Napoleonic Wars. There is also this consideration to-day which did not then exist—the immense advantage, not only to the British Empire but to the world, of a clear understanding between the British Empire and the United States and our other Allies (France, Italy, and Japan) on this subject of the hitherto mad rush in armaments. Further, the example should be set, for the first time I think, of an attempt to put out of the way of nations a question so rife and so pregnant with the future seeds of war as the Pacific question. All these questions had to be considered together by our representatives at Washington, and the result clearly formed one whole.
I greatly regret that their efforts to deal with the question of the submarine have failed, though through no fault of their own. I have the greatest respect for the patriotism and intelligence of Frenchmen when they are dealing with the affairs of France, but I confess to your Lordships that I have been wholly unable to, understand the train of thought which led the representatives of that country to take the line which they took on the subject of submarines. To pursue that subject in detail would be impertinent and unnecessary, but I have made an effort to understand their point of view and I find that I cannot do so. It is, I think, a very great misfortune for us, and not only for us but for the world at large, that the policy which my noble friend suggested and pressed could not be adopted.

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There is one result of what has taken place which no one who has had the honour of being connected with the Navy, as I have, can regard without sorrow, and that is the loss to the Navy of such a very large number of officers and men of priceless value and of proved worth. It is a horrible but necessary concomitant of a period of retrenchment succeeding a period of war inflation. The only consolation one has is that the naval training is so good that I think a naval man, whether officer or seaman, or marine, or stoker, stands a better chance of good employment elsewhere than almost any other class of man.
There is one further subject on which I should like to touch. I can do so by the elastic Rules of your Lordships' House, though it is not strictly germane to the matter of my noble friend's speech. I am delighted that he, and the Admiralty, have withstood the insidious suggestions of those who asked them to believe that the days of the capital ship are numbered. The case, to say the least, is not proven. I should have said that all the lessons of the war proved the exact contrary. I should not, indeed, have thought that this country would have been safe under this Treaty if it had ended in the abolition of the capital ship. The day may come when that may be possible, but I am sure it has not come yet, and the Admiralty have done a great service by standing fast on the experience of the war.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
LORD LEE OF FAREHAM: My Lords, I should like to ask what would be the wish of your Lordships with regard to the subsequent stages of this Bill—whether you would wish to have time for reflection before proceeding with the further stages, or whether you would be willing that we should proceed without delay. I am prepared to put the Committee stage down for to-morrow, or for the first sitting next week, whichever your Lordships desire.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, the Bill, of course, is quite non-controversial, but there are one or two questions upon which one would like to have an explanation, and if the Bill could be put off till next week I think it would be better.

CELLULOID AND CINEMATOGRAPH FILM BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, this Bill, the Second Reading of which I now move, is based upon the recommendations of a Departmental Committee which sat in 1913, of which the noble Earl, Lord Plymouth, was Chairman. The legislation which was recommended by that Committee was delayed owing to the war, but temporary provision was made in London, and in some of the large towns, by the Defence of the Realm Regulations. Since that time London and Liverpool have obtained local Acts, but in the other towns nothing has been done except what was done under the Defence of the Realm Regulations, which are now lapsing. The Bill deals with premises where raw celluloid or cinematograph film is stored. Cinematograph film theatres are regulated by an Act of 1899, while factories are regulated by the Factories and Workshops Act. A Royal Commission is at present considering the whole question of fire risk and losses in wholesale shops and warehouses, and it is thought better to await the Report of this Commission before embarking upon legislation regarding those places.
The general effect of the Bill is fourfold. The premises must be notified to the local authority, who have power of inspection. The local authority will be empowered, under the Bill, to require reasonable means of fire escape, and premises must be constructed and situated so as to minimise danger to adjoining premises. The precautions against fire set out in the Schedule must also be observed. The Bill is generally asked for by local authorities, and I trust your Lordships will give it a Second Reading.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

GOVERNMENT OF THE SOUDAN LOAN (AMENDMENT) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS BILL. [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order).
AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order).
AUDIT (LOCAL AUTHORITIES, ETC.) BILL.
Read 3a(according to Order) and passed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD LEE OF FAREHAM: My Lords, I beg to move that this House do now adjourn till a quarter past four to-morrow—4.30 for Business.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at twenty minutes past five o'clock.