HL Deb 19 July 1922 vol 51 cc595-620

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Strafford.)

House in Committee accordingly.

[THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

Commencement of Act.

1. This Act shall come into operation as respects any local authority as from such date as may be specified in the resolution of that local authority adopting this Act, which date is hereinafter referred to as the appointed day.

LORD ABINGER moved, at the end of the clause, to insert the following proviso: Provided that a local authority shall not have power to adopt or continue this Act at any

be ready to support me when I go into the Division Lobby.

On Question, Whether the Motion shall be agreed to?—

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 29; Not-Contents, 42.

CONTENTS.
Bath, M. Allendale, V. Monckton, L. (V. Galway.)
Bathurst, E. O'Hagan, L.
Devon, E. Ailwyn, L. Parmoor, L.
Eldon, E. Askwith, L. Raglan, L.
Malmesbury, E. Barrymore, L. Redesdale, L.
Mayo, E. Bledisloe, L. St. Levan, L.
Mount Edgcumbe, E. [Teller.] Denman, L. Strachie, L. [Teller.]
Northbrook, E. Dynevor, L. Sudley, L. (E. Arran.)
Portsmouth, E. Lawrence, L. Vivian, L.
Waldegrave, E. Meldrum, L. (M. Huntly.) Wharton, L.
NOT-CONTENTS.
Birkenhead, V. (L. Chancellor.) Strafford, E. Illingworth, L.
Argyll, D. Farquhar, V. (E. Steward.) Killanin, L.
Abercorn, M. (D. Abercorn.) Burnham, V. Lee of Fareham, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Lansdowne, M. Abinger, L. Muir Mackenzie, L. [Teller.]
Ancaster, E. Annesley, L. (V. Valentia.) Rathereedan, L.
Bradford, E. Armaghdale, L. Ritchie of Dundee, L.
Chesterfield, E. Buckmaster, L. [Teller.] Roe, L.
Clarendon, E. Clwyd, L. Sempill, L.
Harrowby, E. Colebrooke, L. Somerleyton, L.
Lucan, E. Donington, L. Stanmore, L.
Midleton, E. Glenarthur, L. Templemore, L.
Onslow, E. Granard, L. (E. Granard.) Treowen, L.
Plymouth, E. Hatherton, L. Wigan, L. (E. Crawford.)
Stamford, E. Hemphill, L.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

time at which the total annual rates levied within the area of that local authority amount to twenty shillings or more per pound of rateable value.

The noble Lord said: This Amendment proposes that the Act should not be adopted in the case of county councils, borough councils, and so on, where the rates exceed 20s. in the £. I was rather surprised that on the Second Reading there was not more criticism of the Bill, seeing that the ratepayers of the country have only recently expressed their opinion against further high expenditure, and extremists throughout the country have been rather vigorously thrown out by the electors, which is a clear indication that they want every possible economy to be practised. If this Bill comes into force, so far as I can see there is no reason why the rates should not be very considerably increased, and extremist boroughs, for example, could apparently appoint as many permanent officials as they liked, and give them as high pensions as they liked. There is absolutely no limit then to the expenditure of the ratepayers' money.

I have not seen any discussion of this Bill in the public Press. I believe certain English county councils have been approached, but I have been told that the Scottish County Councils' Association has not been approached. I should have thought that before a Bill of this nature came before the House, we might have had some statement as to its cost.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 10, at end insert the said proviso.— (Lord Abinger.)

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

I hope your Lordships will not accept this Amendment. The Bill aims at establishing uniform schemes of superannuation throughout the country, and that object would undoubtedly be prejudiced if the Amendment were carried. I submit that the interests of the ratepayers are sufficiently safeguarded under Clause 2, where an actuarial estimate is required, and the resolution adopting the Act has to be confirmed not only by the authority, but by the Minister. The noble Lord who has just sat down seemed to think that the Amendment was perfectly simple. But I would point out that one objection to it would be that though an authority adopted the Act, if and when the rates went up to 20s. in the £ the Act would have no effect at all, with the unfortunate result that those who had retired on superannuation allowances might be left without the means of subsistence and would have to come on the rates.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

I may say on behalf of the Government that we agree entirely with what has fallen from my noble friend who has just sat down. Although, of course, the Government are extremely reluctant to oppose anything which is designed to protect the ratepayers, if, as Lord Strafford points out, the rates were suddenly to go up to 20s. in the £, the unfortunate recipient of a pension would automatically lose his income and the result would be that he would come on the rates in another form.

On Question, Amendment negatived.

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2:

Adoption of Act.

2. This Act shall not apply to a local authority unless and until—

  1. (a) it shall have been adopted by such local authority by a resolution passed by a majority consisting of not less than 598 two-thirds of the members of such local authority, present and voting at a meeting called for the purpose, of which a month's previous notice shall be given to each member of such local authority, together with an estimate certified by an actuary of the cost to the local authority of adopting this Act; and such resolution shall also have been confirmed by such local authority at a regular meeting held not less than one month after the passing of such resolution:
  2. (b) such resolution shall have been approved of by the Minister of Health.

EARL GREY moved, in paragraph (a), to leave out "members" and insert "total membership." The noble Earl said: The object of my Amendment is to make sure that no Council shall adopt this Bill unless the motion to do so is carried by a majority of two-thirds of the total membership of the Council. It is a very important measure to be adopted by any council and, as Lord Abinger has already pointed out, a very considerable sum is involved in many cases at a time when we are anxious not to put any more charges on the rates than we can help. When the measure was first introduced in another place there was no suggestion that it should be adopted in the manner which is now proposed, but I believe it was intended that it should be adopted by the votes of the ratepayers. In any ease, the subject matter of the scheme to be adopted is so important that I venture to think that we should be wise to press for the acquiescence of two-thirds of the total membership of a council before it is adopted. A great many of the officials who will benefit by the Act, if it is adopted, are or will be doing work which is largely paid for out of the Imperial Treasury; yet the whole of their superannuation will fall on the local rates. Therefore, I hope that the House will accept my Amendment.

Amendment proposed— Page 1, line 16, leave out ("members") and insert ("total membership").—(Earl Grey.)

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

I hope the noble Earl will not insist upon this Amendment. If we could be sure that all the members of a council would be present there would be no objection to it, but we know that, from a variety of causes, it is seldom the case that they are all present and it might well happen that the minority defeated the wishes of the majority. As it stands, Clause 2 is the outcome of very full discussions in another place, and of conferences between the Minister of Health, the Association of Municipal Corporations, and the promoters.

EARL GREY

When the noble Lord says that the effect of my Amendment might be for the minority to defeat the majority, I really fail to follow him.

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

May I explain to the noble Lord why I made that statement? If, for the sake of argument, there was a total membership of one hundred, seventy would, perhaps, be a fair average attendance. Under this Amendment, it would be necessary to obtain the assent of sixty-six members, and a minority of five would defeat the Motion in that case.

THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK

May I say, from my experience as chairman of a county council, that I hope your Lordships will not adopt the noble Earl's Amendment, because I believe it will make it practically impossible for any county council to adopt this Bill. As a matter of fact, the noble Lord need be under no very great mis-apprehension on the matter, because I do not think he will find that a great number of county councils will adopt it.

THE EARL OF MIDLETON

I hope the noble Earl will persist in his Amendment. There is a very great danger lurking in the next clause—namely, that this operation cannot be put into force unless the authority employs at least fifty officers or servants, and there would be a great tendency in some cases to increase the number of those employed in order to enable an authority to take advantage of this measure. Unless it is absolutely clear that the vast majority of the county council or the council in question is determined to adopt the Act, and is anxious to do it in the interests of the ratepayers, I really think that smaller bodies ought to have the power of falling back on the existing system. It is not a very popular thing to vote against these schemes, and, therefore, there are many people who may be inclined to stay away on such an occasion. However desirable the Bill is in itself, a very large charge must result, and I think we ought to have the security of the noble Earl's proposal.

THE MARQUESS OF BATH

I venture to hope that your Lordships will not assent to this Amendment. This is a very valuable Bill, and the only effect of the Amendment will be to prevent a good many councils taking advantage of it. If I may give an instance from my own experience, some twenty years ago the clerk of our council retired after forty years' service. There was no power to pension him. Frankly, we tried to establish a consultative office for him, but the council were so keen on economy that they refused to assent to the proposal which the finance committee had made, with this result, that since then we have had more than one case of head officials outliving their usefulness, and even more so, and these men have refused to consider the question of retirement till the council have come to an arrangement with them in regard to doing something in lieu of a pension. We have been able to do that without the auditor objecting. I think this Bill will avoid an extremely undesirable state of things, and will enable men to retire who feel that they have done their work, and whom the councils recognise as having done their work. I would appeal to my noble friend, Lord Grey, to allow this clause to stand as it is. I suggest that two-thirds majority of those taking part in the work of the council is surely a sufficient safeguard, coupled with the assent of the Ministry in London.

LORD BLEDISLOE

I should like to say that I should have considerable sympathy with the Amendment proposed by the noble Earl if it were not for the very large number of careful safeguards that are introduced into this particular clause. It will be noted that not only must the majority be that of two-thirds of those present, but the meeting must have been called for the purpose, a month's previous notice given to every member of the council, and a careful estimate made and certified by the actuary of the actual cost to the local authority. Even when the resolution has been passed by a two-thirds majority it has to be confirmed at the regular meeting of the council. With those safeguards I should have thought it was perfectly safe.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

If I may mention what occurred in another place, I would point out that this clause was accepted by the Government on the Report stage, and that it represents a compromise between the Government proposal (which was defeated in Committee) requiring a poll of the ratepayers, and the original form of the Bill.

I am glad that my noble friend, Lord Bledisloe, has drawn attention to the safeguards, because; they provide ample security against any attempt to rush the local authority. I therefore hope that your Lordships will support my noble friend Lord Strafford, but the Government, of course, leave it entirely to the individual judgment of your Lordships.

EARL GREY

In view of what has been said I do not press the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments moved— Page 1, line 23, at end insert ("and") Page 1, line 26, leave out ("of") Page 1, line 27, leave out ("of Health").

—(The Earl of Strafford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3:

Adoption of provisions relative to officers.

3. A local authority may, subject to the provisions of the section of this Act of which the marginal note is "Adoption of Act," adopt the provisions of this Act so far only as they relate to officers:

Provided that such local authority may, subject to the provisions of the said section of this Act, subsequently also adopt the provisions of this Act so far as they relate to servants, and the resolution to be passed and approved in accordance with the provisions of that section for the purpose of such adoption may provide for the inclusion of both officers and servants in one fund or for a separate fund in respect of servants.

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD moved to leave out Clause 3. The noble Earl said: I propose to leave out this clause here, and put in, after Clause 4, a new clause which will contain the provisions of Clause 3.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 3.—(The Earl of Strafford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4:

Definitions.

4. In this Act unless the context otherwise requires— Contributing service" means service rendered by an officer or servant while he is a contributor to the superannuation fund; Joint appointment" includes any office or employment the tenure whereof is determined by the death, removal or incapacity of another holder of office under or of another person in the service or employment of the local authority; Local authority" means the council of any county, county borough, municipal borough, metropolitan borough, urban district, or rural district, and any other authority within the meaning of the Local Loans Act, 1875, and includes any combination of local authorities under this Act: Provided that this Act shall not apply to any such local authority, or combination of local authorities, which, at the time when this Act is adopted, employ less than fifty officers or servants proposed to be designated as officers or servants for the purpose of this Act. Non-contributing service" means service rendered by an officer or servant in respect of which he is not a contributor to the superannuation fund; Officer," or "servant" means an officer or servant in the permanent service of the local authority on the appointed day or thereafter appointed, and in each ease designated an officer or servant in an established capacity for the purposes of this Act by a resolution of the local authority, and whether in receipt of salary or wages; Salary" or "wages" means all salary, wages, fees, poundage, and other payments (including any war bonus) paid or made to any officer or servant as such for his own use, also the money value of any apartments, rations or other allowances in kind appertaining to his office or employment, but does not include payments for overtime; nor does it include any allowance paid to him to cover cost of office accommodation or clerks' assistance; Service" as respects an officer or servant of any local authority means whole-time or part-time service in the permanent employment of a local authority after such officer or servant has attained the age of eighteen years—

  1. (a) Rendered to that local authority whether before or after the appointed day; and
  2. (b) Rendered before the appointed day to any ether local authority of a kind which would have been reckoned as service for the purpose of paragraph
  3. (a) hereof; and
  4. (c) Rendered after the appointed day to any other local authority which is under this Act permitted to be calculated for the purpose of calculating superannuation allowances.
The expression "service," when used in relation to service after the appointed day, means continuous service, and, in relation to service rendered before the appointed day, means any service, whether continuous or not; Superannuation fund" means a fund to be established by the local authority in the manner prescribed and provided in the section of this Act of which the marginal note is "Superannuation fund"; Actuary" means a fellow of the Institute of Actuaries or the Faculty of Actuaries in Scotland.

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

The Amendments which I have put down for this clause are drafting.

Amendments moved— Page 2, line 14, at end insert ("'Service' means whole-time or part-time service in the permanent employment of a local authority after an officer or servant has attained the age of eighteen year; other than service in respect of which the officer or servant is entitled to any superannuation allowance or gratuity under any other enactment and when used in relation to service after the appointed day means continuous service, and when used in relation to service rendered before the appointed day means service whether continuous or not") Page 2, line 16, leave out ("while") and insert ("in respect of which") Page 2, line 17, at end insert ("'Non-contributing service' means service rendered to any local authority before the appointed day by an officer or servant occupying, on the appointed day, a post designated as an established post

Leave out lines 18 to 22.

Page 2, leave out lines 29 to 34 and insert: ("Provided that no local authority or combination of local authorities shall be entitled to adopt this Act unless there are in the service of such authority or of the authorities so combining as the case may be not less than fifty officers or servants occupying posts proposed to be designated as established posts for the purposes of this Act")

Page 2, leave out lines 35 to 47. Page 2, line 40, leave out from beginning of line to ("for") in line 42 and insert ("occupying a post designated as an established post").— (The Earl of Strafford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

EARL GREY moved, in the paragraph defining "salary" or "wages", to leave out "including any war bonus." The noble Earl said: It is rather difficult to argue this Amendment, because it is not easy to understand exactly what it is that the Bill lays down. The present definition of salary, so far as it includes bonus, is qualified in Clause 7. So far as I can understand it, the proposal to include war bonus in salary was inserted on the suggestion, I think, of the Ministry of Health, in another place. The result of adopting it would be that at present officials who come under this Bill would be called upon to pay five per cent, not only on their normal salaries, but also five per cent, on whatever they may be receiving as a war bonus, and perhaps in ten years' time, or later, when they come to receive their superannuation allowance, they will receive no benefit whatever from the five percent, which they have contributed in respect of their war bonus.

So far as I can see the proposal takes a certain amount of money from the officers now for which those officers will receive no consideration in the future. I do not think that is a good or proper proceeding. Apart from that, it seems to me to be a great pity, when you are adopting a permanent scheme, to introduce into it any temporary conditions. I think it is regrettable, when you are laying down the scale of a superannuation scheme, that- you should adopt war bonus or similar temporary payments. Surely if in some future time the temporary conditions necessitate a readjustment that had better be left for the future and not be incorporated now. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, lines 4 and 5, leave out ("(including any war bonus)").—(Earl Grey.)

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

War bonus has been introduced into this clause in order to bring the Bill into line with the Civil Service superannuation scheme. It is perfectly true, as the noble Earl has pointed out, that the time might come when it would be a distinct disadvantage to the officer or servant to have paid his proportion of this war bonus; because at the time of his retirement, owing to a fall in the cost of living, the bonus may have been extinguished altogether. At the same time I would point out that the ratepayer would get an advantage. The noble Earl has stated an objection to this Bill on the ground that it imposes a burden on ratepayers, but in this particular instance the ratepayers will be the gainers. I would also point out that in some cases war bonuses have been made a permanent addition to the salary.

EARL GREY

I agree that the ratepayer will be the gainer, but it is not a sufficiently good argument to say that it brings us into line with Civil Service superannuation. I should prefer not to see any war bonus included in any permanent scheme.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

May I make one observation? The object of the provision is to safeguard the superannuation fund in the probable event of a consolidation of a substantial part of the bonus in a new and permanent post-war scale of salaries. Unless this fund is built up by adequate contributions in this way it will not suffice to meet the bonus charges in the future, and if the war bonus were excluded the fund would receive contributions based on pre-war salaries to meet pensions based on the salaries of the last five years.

LORD STRACHIE

I have in Amend ment on somewhat similar lines to that of the noble Earl, but having heard the argument of the noble Earl who speaks on behalf of the Department, and also having heard from the Government actuary that the intention of the clause is to safeguard the interests of ratepayers, I admit, that I must support the view put forward on behalf of the Government. In the interests of the ratepayers I think we ought not to accept the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment negatived.

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

The rest of my Amendments to the clause are drafting.

Amendments moved— Page 3, line 10, leave out ("nor does it in clude") and insert ("or")

Page 3, leave out lines 13 to 33 inclusive Page 3, line 36, leave out ("the") and leave out from ("Section") to the end of line 38 and insert ("eighteen of this Act") Page 3, line 40, at end insert ("'Minister' means the Minister of Health").—(The Earl of Strafford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD moved, after Clause 4, to insert the following new clause: .—(1) Where a local authority who have adopted this Act propose to designate at any subsequent date any further posts as established posts for the purposes of this Act. the date of such subsequent designation shall be deemed to be the appointed day as respects the officers or servants occupying the posts so designated at the date of designation, and the provisions of section two and of paragraph (e) of subsection (1) of section eighteen of this Act shall apply accordingly, unless and to the extent to which in any particular ease the Minister otherwise directs. (2) A local authority may with the consent of the Minister and in accordance with a scheme approved by him establish separate superannuation funds for officers and servants respectively and any such scheme may provide for the transfer of officers or servants from one fund to the other and for making such financial adjustments between the funds in the event of such transfer as may be necessary.

The noble Earl said: This is a new clause to provide for the subsequent designation of posts, and the establishment of separate funds for officers and servants. At the beginning of the clause the Government actuary suggested the addition of the words "propose to," and I move the Amendment with the addition of those two words.

Amendment moved— After Clause 4 insert the said new clause.— (The Earl of Strafford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 5:

Combinations of local authorities.

5.—(1) The following local authorities, namely

  1. (c) The council of any county and any local authority whose area is wholly or partly situate within the county; and
  2. (b) Any two or more local authorities whose areas are situate wholly or partly in the same county
may inter into combination for the purposes of this Act:

Provided that such combination shall not take effect unless a combination scheme has been submitted to and approved by the Minister of Health.

(2) A scheme of combination under this section may provide for making such modifications in this Act as appear to the Minister to be necessary or expedient for the purpose of applying this Act to combinations of local authorities, and may contain such supplemental and consequential provisions as appear necessary or expedient.

(3) Any local authority to which this Act applies may, on such terms and conditions as they think fit and with the approval of the Minister of Health, admit any officers or servants of—

  1. (a) any local authority, not being a local authority to which this Act applies, whose area is situate wholly or partly within the area of such first-mentioned local authority; or
  2. (b) any undertakers exercising any of their powers within the area of such first-mentioned local authority under any Act of Parliament or any Order having the force of an Act;
to participate in the benefits prescribed by this Act in the like manner as though they were officers and servants of such first-mentioned local authority.

Any authority or undertakers any of whose officers or servants are admitted as aforesaid shall have all such powers as may be necessary for the purpose of giving effect to such terms and conditions as aforesaid, and any payments under those terms or conditions shall be made out of the rate, fund, or revenues, out of which the salaries or wages of such officers or servants are paid.

LORD STRACHIE moved in subsection (1) (a), after "county" ["within the county"], to insert: (b) The council of any county and any local authority whose area adjoins the county".

The noble Lord said: This Amendment is to meet an objection that might be taken, that under this Bill it will not be possible for a small county like Rutland to amalgamate its fund with that of a larger adjoining county. Under the Bill small local authorities within the county are allowed to amalgamate, two boards of guardians and two urban authorities, but they are restricted entirely to the inside of a county. It is thought that there might be hardship in such a case as Rutland and smaller Welsh counties who might be desirous of amalgamating in order to make the fund watertight and sufficient. The clause is purely permissive and imposes no obligation on the county council to amalgamate unless it wishes.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 4, after ("county") insert: (b) The council of any county and any local authority whose area adjoins the county").—(Lord Strachie.)

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

This clause already allows combination between local authorities whose areas are wholly or partly in the same country. If local authorities combine for superannuation purposes there should be a common financial interest—a cash nexus—provided in this case by the fact that they contribute to the same county rate. If they are in separate counties that cash nexus would not exist. It is a proposal which was not recommended by the Departmental Committee, and I have consulted the Government actuary, who considers it undesirable.

On Question, Amendment negatived.

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

My Amendments are all drafting.

Amendments moved— Page 4, line 10, leave out ("of Health") Page 4, line 20, leave out ("of Health") Page 4, line 38, leave out ("rate fund") and insert ("same funds, rates") and after ("revenues") insert ("as those").—(THE EARL OF Strafford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 6 (Title to superannuation allowances):

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

The Amendments to this clause are also drafting.

Amendments moved— Page 5, line 5, after ("completed") insert ("forty years") and leave out from ("service") to ("or") in line 6 Page 5, line 26, leave out from ("any") to the end of line 27, and insert ("such extended period") Page 5, line 28, after ("such") insert ("extended").—(THE EARL OF Strafford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 7 (Scale of superannuation allowances):

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

All my Amendments to Clause 7 are drafting.

Amendments moved— Page 5, line 31, leave out the second ("the") and leave out from ("section") to ("and") in line 33, and insert ("sixteen of this Act") Page 5, line 36, leave out from ("scale") to end of line 37 Page 5, line 40, leave out ("precedes") and insert ("precede"). Page 6, line 15, leave out from ("be") to end of line 17 and insert (treated as though it were whole-time service for a proportionately reduced period").—(THE EARL OF Strafford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8:

Reckoning service in case of transfer.

8.—(1) Where an officer or servant transfers from the service of one local authority who have adopted this Act, with the consent of that authority, to the service of another local authority who have adopted this Act, within six months of leaving the service of the first-mentioned authority, the first-mentioned local authority shall pay out of the superannuation fund to the local authority to whom the officer or servant so transfers, a transfer value ascertained in accordance with rules made for the purpose by the Minister of Health, and in that case an officer or servant shall be entitled to such rights in respect of service before the date of transfer as though such service had been with the local authority to whom he has transferred:

Provided that any officer or servant may appeal to the Minister against, the refusal of a local authority to give their consent to any such transfer, and the Minister after consulting the local authority may give his consent, which shall be equivalent to the consent of the local authority.

(2) Where an officer or servant transfers from the service of a local authority who have not adopted this Act to the service of a local authority who have adopted his Act within six months of leaving the service of the first-mentioned authority, he shall, if he pays in lieu of transfer value a sum or sums to be ascertained in accordance with rules to be made by the Minister, be entitled to reckon service with that authority in whole or part in accordance with the amount of t he sum so paid.

(3) No service with another local authority shall be reckoned under this section unless the officer or servant transferring has within six months after the transfer satisfied the local authority to whom he transfers that ho has been in the service of another authority or authorities.

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

My Amendments to this clause are drafting.

Amendments moved— Page 6, line 20, after ("to") insert ("a designated post in") Page 6, line 23, after the first ("authority") insert ("and has been a contributor to the superannuation fund of that authority") Page 6, line 27, leave out ("of Health") Page 6, line 28, leave out ("an") and insert ("the") Page 6, line 30, leave out ("though") and insert ("he would have been entitled to if"). Page 7, line 4, at end insert ("and in accordance with such rules").—(THE EARL OF Strafford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Lord STRACHIE moved, at the end of subsection (2), to insert:— (3) Where an officer or servant transfers from the service of a local authority who have not adopted this Act to the service of a local authority who have adopted this Act, the last-mentioned authority may, if they think fit, pay to the superannuation fund in lieu of transfer value a sum or sums to be reckoned in accordance with rules to be made by the Minister and thereupon such officer or servant shall be entitled to reckon service with the first-mentioned authority in whole or in part in accordance with the amount of the sum so paid.

The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment, which again is quite optional, is to provide an opportunity for a local authority, which is anxious to obtain the services of a man coming from another authority, of making good his contribution, in order to put him in the same position as that in which he found himself under the local authority from which he came. If that were not done, he would either have to pay the amount out of his own pocket or would find himself in a worse position than if he had remained in the service of the I other authority, from which he transferred himself. There might be cases in which a local authority is so anxious to get the services of some good man that they would be quite ready to make good the pension, so that he may suffer no loss by the transfer. The Amendment is simply an enabling one, and it seems to me that there could be no harm in putting it in, because cases might arise where some invaluable official could be obtained only on the consideration that there was no loss of his superannuation allowance.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 4, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Stretchie.)

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

I understand that the Minister objects to this on the technical ground of privilege, as imposing a charge on the rates.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

I gather that that is the case. This Amendment would raise difficulties in another place, because, as we are advised, it raises a question of privilege, and, in addition to that, the Amendment would allow an adopting local authority, employing an officer or a servant transferred from a non-adopting authority, to pay a transfer value, or the equivalent, into their superannuation fund in respect of him, instead of requiring him to pay it himself, and that would give him a full superannuation rate in respect of his previous service with the non-adopting authority. The Amendment would, I think, impose burdens—undue burdens, if I may say so—upon the rates. Another objection, to which I might call your Lordships' attention, is that it would enable a local authority to attract a good officer or servant from the service of another authority.

Lord STRACHIE

After what the noble Earl has said, I shall not, of course, press the Amendment. I was under the impression that the Ministry of Health did not object to it, but evidently I was mistaken.

Amendment, by have, withdrawn.

Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 9:

Forfeiture for fraud, etc.

9. An officer or servant who is dismissed or resigns or otherwise ceases to hold his office or employment in consequence of any offence of a fraudulent character or of grave misconduct shall forfeit all claim to any superannuation allowance under this Act:

Provided that in the case of any such officer or servant, the local authority may, if they see fit, return to him out of tie superannuation fund a sum equal to the amount of all his contributions thereto under this Act or to such part thereof as the local authority shall think fit.

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD moved, in the proviso, after "fund," to insert "or pay to his wife or family out of that fund." The noble Earl said: This provides for cases of dismissal or resignation as the result of misconduct. The authority may, if they think fit, return to the officer or servant the amount of his contribution, or any part of it, but there might be cases where it would be desirable to repay the contribution to the wife and family, rather than to the delinquent, in a case of misdemeanour. It is entirely permissive.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 18, after ("fund") insert ("or pay to his wife or family out of that fund").—(THE EARL OF Strafford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 10 agreed to.

Clause 11:

Return of contributions in certain cases.

11. In the event of an officer or servant voluntarily resigning his office or employment or being dismissed for incapacity (fraud or misconduct not being alleged) before he has under the procisions of this Act become entitled to a superannuation allowance the local authority shall pay to him out of the superannuation fund a sum equal to the amount of the contributions made by such officer or servant under this Act.

Notwithstanding anything in this or the last preceding section, the local authority shall not make any return of contributions with or without interest in the case of an officer or servant who transfers to the service of another local authority, where on such transfer a transfer value is paid by the first-mentioned local authority.

LORD STRACHIE moved to leave out the first "shall" and insert "may." The noble Lord said: This is to give an option to a local authority to decide whether to return a contribution or not. As the clause stands, the return is compulsory, but there might be eases where it was thought desirable to exercise the right which I propose. This mandatory obligation to return the money might lead to voluntary resignations. A man might be inclined to resign in order to obtain the return of his contributions, in order to take some better job that has been offered to him. That seems rather hard upon the county council or local authority, because the very object of the superannuation allowance is to encourage men to remain in their service in order to get their pensions, and not to leave without very good and sufficient reasons. I hope the noble Earl may feel inclined to accept this Amendment, though he has not previously accepted any Amendment of mine.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 40, leave out ("shall") and insert ("may").—(Lord Strachie.)

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

I am afraid I am unable to accept the noble Lord's Amendment. After all, the money in this case is only contributed money, and not county money, and it is returned to the man without any interest being paid, so that the county would benefit to the extent of the interest on the money which had been received up to the date of resignation. I hope the noble Lord will not press the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 11 agreed to.

Clause 12 (Return of contributions in case of death):

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

My Amendment to this clause is drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 8, lines 20 and 21, leave out ("an aggregate amount equal") and insert ("an amount equal in the aggregate").—(THE EARL OF Strafford).

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 13 (Notice of certain proposals):

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

I beg to move drafting Amendments.

Amendments moved— Page 8, line 35, leave out ("time") and insert ("meeting") Page 8, line 36, after ("resigns") insert ("or to make any payment") Page 8, line 37, leave out the second ("the") and after ("section") leave out to ("or") in line 39 and insert ("nine of this Act").—(THE EARL OF Strafford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 14 agreed to.

Clause 15 (Officers and servants to contribute):

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

My Amendments to this clause are also drafting.

Amendments moved— Page 9, line 11, after ("(2)") insert ("Subject to the provisions of subsection (2) of section eight of this Act") Page 9, line 18, leave out from ("appointment") to the end of line 19. Page 9, line 21, at end insert ("unless such officer or servant shall be appointed after the appointed day, and his service or any part of his service with any other local authority is under the provisions of this Act reckoned as contributing service").—(The, Earl of Strafford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 16 (Allowance for previous service):

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

My Amendments are drafting, except the last, which is consequential.

Amendments moved—

Page 9, line 28, after ("case") insert ("of any officer or servant")

Page 9, line 29, leave out ("special")

Page 9, line 33, leave out ("or aggregate service")

Page 9, line 40, after ("exceeds") insert ("one").

Page 10, line 1, after ("same") insert ("funds") and leave out lines 12 to 15.

Page 10, line 18, leave out ("successfully") and insert ("successively")

Page 10, line 33, leave out ("of Health")

Page 10, line 35, at end insert: (4) In the case of an officer or servant occupying a designated post on the appointed day who is fifty-five years of age or more on that day, service after the appointed day in a designated post shall be deemed to be non-contributing service").—(The Earl of Strafford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 17 (Contributors for less than ten years):

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

My Amendment is drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 10, line 40, after ("office") insert ("or employment").—(THE EARL OF Strafford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 18 (Superannuation Fund):

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

My Amendments are drafting.

Amendments moved— Page 11, line 32, after ("values") insert ("or payments in lieu of transfer values") Page 11, lines 35 and 36, leave out ("adoption of this Act") and insert ("appointed day"). Page 12, line 2, after ("same") insert ("funds").—(The Earl of Strafford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 19 (Actuarial Investigation):

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

Again, my Amendment is drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 12, line 8, after ("valuation") insert ("of the assets and liabilities").—(The Earl of Strafford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 20 and 21 agreed to.

Clause 22 (Arbitration):

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

I have a drafting Amendment on this clause.

Amendment moved— Page 14, lines 1 and 2, leave out ("of Health").—(The Earl of Strafford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 22, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 23 (Gratuities):

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

My Amendments are drafting.

Amendments moved— Page 14, line 16, leave out ("these") and insert ("the") and leave out ("all") and insert ("the aggregate") Page 14, line 23, leave out ("special") line 28, leave out ("Provided that") and insert ("(3)") Page 14, line 30, after ("same") insert ("funds").—(The Earl of Strafford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 23, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 24:

Scheme to be submitted where this Act adopted by local authority having a superannuation fund in operation.

24. If this Act be adopted by a local authority having an existing superannuation fund or scheme in operation, such local authority shall prepare a scheme for substituting for such superannuation fund or scheme a superannuation fund under the provisions of this Act and providing for (among other things) the application, transfer, or disposal of any then existing funds, securities, or policies of insurance or the proceeds thereof, and for adequately protecting the rights and interests of the various parties interested in such existing superannuation fund or scheme.

A scheme under this section shall be submitted by the local authority to the Minister of Health for his approval; and this Act shall not become operative in the case of such local authority until such scheme, with or without modification, shall have been approved by the Minister of Health.

LORD RATHCREEDAN moved to leave out "an existing superannuation fund or scheme," and to insert "any superannuation scheme or other scheme for ensuring benefits to an officer or servant on retirement." The noble Lord said: I think your Lordships will agree with this Amendment. Its simple object is to remove any ambiguity as to the position of authorities having existing superannuation schemes, of a private nature or otherwise. I might point out that certain authorities have what are known as thrift funds, and this Amendment is designed to secure the full rights of existing officers. The whole object of the Amendment is in fact to place the authorities in such a position that they shall have one fund only to deal with, instead of a variety of funds.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 34, leave out ("an existing superannuation fund or scheme") and insert ("any superannuation scheme or other scheme for ensuring benefits to an officer or servant on retirement")—(Lord Rathcreedan.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 30, leave out ("fund or").—(Lord Rathcreedan.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD

My next Amendment is drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 37, after ("fund") insert ("or scheme") and after ("Act") insert ("with such modifications and adaptations as may be required").—(The Earl of Strafford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 42, leave out ("existing superannuation fund or") and insert ("first mentioned").—(Lord Rathcreedan.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendments moved— Page 15, line 2, leave out ("of Health") Page 15, line 6, leave out ("of Health").—(The Earl of Strafford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 24, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 25 (Payments and expenses under this Act):

Amendment moved— Page 15, line 12, after ("same") insert ("funds").—(The Earl of Strafford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 25, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 26 and 27 agreed to.

Clause 28 (Provisions as to existing Clerks of the Peace):

THE EARL OP STRAFFORD

All my Amendments on this clause are drafting.

Amendments moved—

Page 15, line 30, leave out ("whole-time") and insert ("permanent")

Page 15, line 31, leave out ("his office") and insert ("any office held by him as such clerk")

Page 15, line 40, after ("day") insert ("and this Act shall not apply to any such Clerk of the Peace who has given such notice").

Page 16, line 6, at end insert the following new subsection: ("() Save as otherwise expressly provided in section six of this Act, nothing in this Act shall affect the tenure of office of any Clerk of the Peace to whom this Act applies").—(The Earl of Strafford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 28, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 29 (Saving for Superannuation (Metropolis) Act):

Amendment moved— Page 16, line 16, after ("day") insert ("any") and after ("officer") insert ("or servant").—(The Earl of Strafford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD RATHCREEDAN moved, at the end of the clause, to insert the following new subsection: (2) Where this Act is adopted by a local authority to whom the said Act of 1866 applies, a scheme made under section twenty-four of this Act may provide that any allowances already granted under the said Act may as from the appointed day be charged upon the superannuation fund.

The noble Lord said: The object of this I Amendment is to assist the Metropolitan boroughs, because under the Superannuation (Metropolis) Act, 1866, the boroughs had power to retire their officers and give them a pension, which was charged upon the rates, without exacting any contributions from the officer. Now it may happen that authorities who want to adopt the new Act-have already the responsibility of superannuation, and it is thought that in such cases the authorities may wish to provide for all superannuation out of one fund, and by so doing they will, so to speak, regularise everything which comes under the head of superannuation.

Amendment moved— Page 16, line 23, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Rathcreedan.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 29, as amended, agreed to.

THE EARL OF STRAFFORD moved, after Clause 29, to insert the following new clause:

Saving for express provisions affecting officers or servants.

". Nothing in this Act shall prejudice or affect any express provision contained in any Act of Parliament or any Order confirmed by or having the effect of an Act of Parliament relative to any superannuation or retiring allowance or any other allowance of a similar character in the case of any officer or servant referred to in such provision."

The noble Earl said: This is a saving clause.

Amendment moved— After Clause 29, insert the said now clause.—(The Earl of Strafford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 30:

Application.

30.—(1) This Act shall not apply to Ireland.

(2) This Act, in its application to Scotland, shall be subject to the following provisions:—

  1. (a) "The Secretary for Scotland" shall be substituted for the Minister of Health.
  2. (b) "Local authority" means any county council, town council, parish council, or other authority whatsoever having power to levy or to borrow on the security of a rate and includes any combination of local authorities under this Act:
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  3. (c) "Rate" means an assessment or rate the proceeds of which are applicable to public local purposes and which is leviable on lands and heritages, and includes any sum which though obtained in the first instance by a precept certificate or document requiring payment from some authority or officer is, or can be, ultimately raised out of a rate:
  4. (d) This Act shall not apply to any county or town clerk who shall be fifty-five years of age or more at the appointed day if within six months after such appointed day he gives notice in writing to the council of his desire to continue to hold his office on the same terms as he held it prior to the appointed day;
  5. (e) Section twenty-nine of this Act and references to the Arbitration Act, 1880, shall not apply.

LORD STANMORE

These are drafting Amendments.

Amendments moved— Page 16, line 20, leave out ("provisions") and insert ("modifications") Page 16, line 30, leave out from ("parish council") to ("and") in line 32 and insert ("education authority or district board of control").—(Lord Stanmore.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD STANMORE

The next Amendment is also drafting, but with your Lordships' permission I should like to make a slight verbal alteration in the Amendment as it appears on the Paper, in order to bring it into exact conformity with the Amendment moved by Lord Strafford in Clause 4. I propose to leave out the proviso to paragraph (b) after "Provided that" and insert: no local authority or combination of local authorities shall be entitled to adopt this Act unless there are in the service of such authority or of the authorities so combining as the case may be not less than fifty officers or servants occupying posts proposed to be designated as established posts for the purposes of this Act.

Amendment moved— Page 16, line 34, leave out from ("that") to end of line 40, and insert the said words.—(Lord Stanmore.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD STANMORE moved to leave out paragraph (c) and insert: () Subsection (1) of section five of this Act shall apply to the councils of any two or more adjoining counties in like manner as it applies to the local authorities therein mentioned, and subsection (3) of the said section shall apply to the officers or servants of any local authority within the meaning of the Local Authorities Loans (Scotland) Act, 1891.

The noble Lord said: The omission of paragraph (c) is consequential on the two foregoing Amendments. The insertion of the words on the paper is, in part, drafting, and consequential on the two previous Amendments, and is, in part, designed to enable the councils of two or more adjoining counties to combine for the purposes of the Act. In some cases in Scotland, the county is so small that the power of combination only with local authorities whose areas are situate in whole or in part in the county would not be sufficient. The point was raised in the House of Commons when the Lord Advocate undertook to meet it.

Amendment moved— Page 17, lines 1 to 8, leave out paragraph (c), and insert the said new paragraph.—(Lord Stanmore.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD STANMORE moved, in paragraph (d), after the word "day," where it first appears, to insert "or to the town clerk of any royal burgh holding office at the appointed day." The noble Lord said: The town clerks of royal burghs in Scotland hold their offices ad vitam aut culpam, and the object of this Amendment is to enable a town clerk in office, when his burgh adopts the Act, to have the option of coming within the superannuation scheme, and being required to retire at sixty-five on a pension, which might be small, or of continuing to hold his office on his present tenure. Similar provision is made for clerks of the peace in England by Clause 28, proviso (a).

Amendment moved— Page 17, line 11, after ("day") insert ("or to the town clerk of any royal burgh holding office at the appointed day").—(Lord Stanmore.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 17, line 10, leave out ("twenty-nine") and insert ("twenty-eight").—(Lord Stanmore.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 30, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 31 agreed to.

THE LORD CHAIRMAN

May I express my obligation to the noble Earl, Lord Strafford, for having provided me with copies of his Amendments, and elaborate notes, which have enabled, me to understand the Amendments and to save the time of the House?