Lords Sitting of 15 December 1922

Preamble
The House met at eleven of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I beg to move the suspension of Standing Order No. XXXIX.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXXIX he considered in order to its being dispensed with for the purpose of taking the following Bill through all its stages, Consolidated Fund (Appropriation).—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

IMPORTATION OF CATTLE BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
Order of the Day read for the consideration of the First and Second Reports from the Select Committee.
The Committee reported inter alia:—

FIRST REPORT.
1. RETIREMENT OF SIR ALBERT GRAY, K.C.B., K.C., COUNSEL TO THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES, AND APPOINTMENT OF HIS SUCCESSOR.
The Chairman of Committees informed the Committee that his Counsel, Sir Albert Gray, K.C.B., K.C., had expressed his desire to resign his post as from the 1st of January, 1923.
Sir Albert Gray's long and distinguished services, extending over a, period of 26 years, are well known to the house. The Committee wish to record their appreciation of Sir Albert's devotion to duty, and their great regret that he should feel it necessary to sever his official connection with the House.
The Chairman of Committees has appointed the Hon. Hugh Godley, of the Parliamentary Counsel's Office, to be Sir Albert, Gray's successor.
2. SIR ALBERT GRAY'S PENSION.
The Committee, in accordance with precedent, have authorised the grant of a pension to Sir Albert Gray as from the date of his retirement, calculated in the usual way in accordance with the Superannuation Act, 1859. The amount of the, pension so calculated is £780. There will also be a supplement under the new Treasury agreement, amounting at present to £86 13s. 4d., but this supplement is subject to quarterly revision.
3. SEPPLY OF FITTINGS FOR CERTAIN OF THE MUNIMENT ROOMS IN THE VICTORIA TOWER.
The Clerk of the Parliaments informed the Committee that owing to certain of the muniment rooms in the Victoria Tower being required by the Clerk of the Crown for the storage of election ballot papers, it had been found necessary to transfer from them a large quantity of Parliamentary plans for which no suitable accommodation is now available. He pointed out that these plans, which am constantly increasing, are frequently consulted and should be readily accessible.
The Committee recommend that an estimate of £200 should be authorised for the purpose.
4. ARRANGEMENTS BETWEEN THE LIBRARIANS OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS AND HOUSE OF COMMONS TO FACILITATE THE DISPOSAL OF DUPLICATE BOOKS AND PAPERS.
The Clerk of the Parliaments informed the Committee that in conformity with a suggestion made by the Earl of Crawford and Balcarres, who was then First Commissioner of Works, at the last meeting of the Committee, the, two Librarians had met and arrived at an arrangement by which it was hoped that the immediate difficulty with regard to space for books in the House of Commons had been solved by the removal to the Record Office of a large number of House of Lords Sessional Papers covering the period 1800–1873. This removal had been rendered possible by the Librarian of the House of Lords giving facilities to the Librarian of the House of Commons for access to these papers, which are kept in the corridor outside the House of Lords Library.
5. RETIREMENT OF A VRINCIPAL DOORKEEPER.
The Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod informed the Committee that Mr. A. A. Edney, Principal Doorkeeper, will retire on the 27th of January, 1923, and will then have been in the service of the House for a period of forty years.
The Committee sanctioned the grant to Mr. Edney on his retirement of a pension of £133 6s. 8d. This sum is calculated on his present salary of £200 per annum, and, owing to the special circumstances of Mr. Edney's case, is not based on the three years' average. In addition to this pension, Mr. Edney will also receive a supplement under the new Treasury agreement amounting at the present time to £80 3s., but this supplement is subject to quarterly revision.

SECOND REPORT.
CORRECTION OF AMOUNT OF SIR ALBERT GRAY' S PENSION.
The Clerk of the Parliaments informed the Committee that a mistake had been made in calculating Sir Albert Gray's pension under the Superannuation Acts.
Sir Albert Gray is entitled under those Acts to 10 added years for professional qualifications, and those added years Lave not been taken into account.
Instead of the figures given in the First Report of the Committee, the proper amount of the pension is £1,080. There will also be a supplement under the new Treasury agreement, amounting at present to£120, but this supplement is subject to quarterly revision.
The Committee authorised this correction to be made in the amount of the pension.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGRMORE): My Lords, I beg to move that the First and Second Reports of the Select Committee be considered and adopted. The First Report has been circulated, and I need not refer to it. The Second Report, which arises out of a meeting that took place yesterday, has just been put on the Table of your Lordships' House, and I am sorry your Lordships have had such a short time in which to consider it, but the only effect of that Report upon the First is to correct some figures that appeared in the First Report. Those were fully explained to the Committee, and I can guarantee to your Lordships that the figures are now correct. In view of that, perhaps your Lordships would not desire that I should address you on the subject at length, but I shall be pleased to answer any questions that may be asked. I beg to move.
Moved, That the First and Second Reports from the Select Committee on House of Lords Offices be now considered and adopted.—(The Earl of Donanyhmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

POSTAL CHARGES.
LORD SOUTHWARK LORD SOUTHWARK had given Notice to ask His Majesty's Government—
(1) Whether they will grant a Return stating what the revenue was from the sale of penny stamps between June 1 and December 31, 1913; twopenny stamps between June 1 and December 31, 1921; penny-halfpenny stamps between June 1 and December 31, 1922; and
(2) Whether, as the Postmaster-General is not a member of the Cabinet, they will, during the recess, ascertain from him whether there are any departmental reasons beyond revenue why, in in the interest of trade and commerce, the penny postage should not be immediately restored without waiting until the end of the financial year.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, my Questions both relate to postal matters, and in putting them to His Majesty's Government I should like to say that I am in no way attacking the Postmaster-General. On the contrary, I desire to assist him in his recently-expressed earnest desire to restore penny postage and reduce postal rates, but I wish to impress upon
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His Majesty's Government, and especially upon the noble Marquess who is leading the House, if he will honour me by replying, that a reduction of postal charges is not a departmental question only, but is a great national question. It is a question for both the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the President of the Board of Trade, and, if I may say so, for the Government as a whole.
The President of the Board of Trade rendered very considerable service in his Office as Minister in the Overseas Trade Department, and only yesterday he gave expression to a view which I was glad to read this morning. He said what a great many other people have said—namely, that the only way to get rid of unemployment was to revive trade, and he went on to say that the extent and the rapidity of that revival must depend in large measure upon skill, enterprise and initiative. Those are qualities that I wish his Majesty's Government to exhibit. I would impress upon them that the present postal charges are greatly retarding trade revival. They are a drag on the wheels of industry, and I am sure the business world will say that there ought to be modifications at once.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, with reference to the request for a Return, my only hesitation is that I have not yet received information as to whether there would be any difficulty in granting it. I apprehend not, and in that case it shall be granted. I must put in that saving clause, however, in case there is any difficulty.
With regard to the second Question, everyone must agree with the noble Lord that cheap postage is much in the interests of trade. No one doubts it, and I will take care that his message is conveyed to the Postmaster-General so that he may consider this matter during the recess. He has but recently accepted the office which he now holds and it is perhaps rather unfair to ask him to reply through me this morning, but the matter shall certainly be inquired into during the recess. The noble Lord will understand that our financial position is such that we do not want to try doubtful experiments. That would be a very dangerous thing to do, but if it should appear that the noble Lord is well advised when he says that it would improve trade without throwing any burden on the Exchequer, I have no doubt that my right hon. friend the Postmaster-General will consider the suggestion favourably.
LORD BUCKMASTER: My Lords, I should like to support what the noble Marquess has just said. I hope that no attempt will be made to subsidise the Post Office out of other Taxes. I should regard it as ft most dangerous experiment, and although all of us would delight to see any effort made to restore trade it is difficult to understand how the real obstacle we are encountering to-day, which consists in our inability to export our goods, is removed by facilities for domestic and internal commerce. The real thing against internal commerce is the fact that people have not the money with which to buy, and if you are going to take more from them by taxation in order to obtain cheap postage they will have still less with which to buy, and you will not make their purchasing easier by flooding them with advertisements of goods they are unable to acquire. I am very glad that the noble Marquess has safeguarded himself in the answer he has given.
LORD SOUTHWARK: My Lords, may I say that I do not desire any other facilities than those spoken of by the noble and learned Lord? All I say is that you will find that a reduction of postage rates means an increase of revenue.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL.
Brought from the Commons and read 1a.
Then (Standing Order No. X XXIX. having been suspended) Bill read 2a: Committee negatived: Bill read 3a, and passed.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
The Royal Assent was given to the following Bills—

Consolidated Fund (Appropriation).

Importation of Animals.

Trade Facilities and Loans Guarantee.

Dundee High School Order Confirmation.

Glasgow (Tramways, etc.) Order Confirmation.

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Scottish Widows' Fund and Life Assurance Society's Provisional Order Confirmation.

Edinburgh Corporation Provisional Order Confirmation.

East Lothian (Western District) Water Order Confirmation.

PROROGATION: HIS MAJESTY'S SPEECH.
His Majesty's most gracious Speech was delivered to both Houses of Parliament by the Lord Chancellor (in pursuance of His Majesty's Command) as followeth—
"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons.
"The discussion of problems affecting the peace of the Near East is proceeding at Lausanne and I earnestly trust that a satisfactory solution will shortly he reached.
"The execution of the Treaty of Peace with Germany has again been the subject of conversations between My Ministers and the Ministers of the Allied Powers. These conversations will be resumed in Paris at an early day.
"The task of restoring conditions favourable to economic stability in Europe continues to give Me deep concern. Tile difficulties are great and complex, and can only be overcome by patient and sincere co-operation between the nations primarily effected.
"Members of the House of Commons.
"I thank you for the provision you have made for the public service.
"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons.
"I have given My assent to measures for the final enactment of the Constitution of the Irish Free State, and for the consequent necessary provisions. It is My earnest prayer that the passing of these measures may mark the inauguration of a period of prosperity and concord both for Ireland and for Great Britain.
"An Act has been passed to continue and extend the measures already taken for improving trade, and My Ministers will continue to examine with great care all possible measures for dealing with Unemployment.
"The condition of the agricultural industry, which is unfortunately passing through a period of serious depression, is receiving the careful consideration of My Ministers m the hope that means may be found to alleviate some of the difficulties confronting both farmers and labourers.
"I have assented to a Bill to give effect to the agreement entered into by My late Government with the representatives of the Government of My Dominion of Canada, for the amendment of the law with respect to the landing of imported animals in Great Britain.
"It is My earnest prayer that the blessing of the Almighty may rest upon all your labours."
Then a Commission for proroguing the Parliament was read.
After which the LORD CHANCELLOR said:
MY LORDS, AND MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE of COMMONS,—By virtue of His Majesty's Commission, under the Great Seal, to us and other Lords Directed, and now read, we do, in His Majesty's name and in obedience to His Commands, prorogue this Parliament to Tuesday, the thirteenth day of February, One thousand nine hundred and twenty-three, to be then here holden; and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Tuesday, the thirteenth clay of February, One thousand nine hundred and twenty-three.
End of the First Session of the Thirty-Second Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in the thirteenth year of the Reign of His Majesty King George V.