Lords Sitting of 1 August 1922

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
NORFOLK FISHERIES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Read 3a, and passed.
TAW AND TORRIDGE FISHERIES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Read 3a, and passed.
TOWY FISHERIES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Read 3a, and passed.

LOCAL BILLS: STANDING ORDERS AMENDED.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE)THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE) rose to move, That the Standing Orders relative to Local Bills be amended as follows:
4. Leave out "notices" and insert "notice."
Leave out from "compulsorily," where that word last occurs, to the end of the paragraph and insert "and shall state (a) that on or before the 30th day of November, plans, sections and books of reference will be deposited with the clerks of the peace, and also with the officers respectively mentioned in Standing Order N as the case may be and (b) that on and after the 21st day of December a copy of the Bill may be inspected and copies obtained at a reasonable price at the office or offices mentioned in the notice.
5. Leave out "notices" and insert "notice."
9. After "for a Bill" insert "but not later than the twenty-seventh day of November."
Leave out "once in the London, Edinburgh or Dublin Gazette, as the case may be, and."
Paragraph (3) leave out from "imitation" to the end of the paragraph, and insert "the name and date of publication of each newspaper in which the notice referred to in Standing Order 9 has been or will be published in full."
Leave out paragraph (4).
After Standing Order 9, insert as a new Standing Order:
9A. In the months of October and November, but not later than the twenty-seventh day of November, a short notice of the principal subject matters of the Bill (but without particulars except as required by Standing

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Order 66) comprising also the same statements (a) and (b) as are required under Standing Order 4, and a statement of the name and date of publication of each newspaper in which the notice referred to in Standing Order 9 has been or will be published in full, shall be published once in the London or Edinburgh Gazette, as the case may be.
11. Leave out "application in writing shall be made" and insert "notice in writing of the application shall be given."
Leave out from "houses" where that word last occurs to "shall be" and insert "such notice."
12. Leave out Standing Order 12.
14. Leave out "and copies of the Gazette notice respectively."
31. Leave out Standing Order 31.
33. Paragraph (4a), after "gas" insert "water power," and after "patents" insert "designs, trade marks or copyrights."
35. Leave out "and lists of owners, lessees, and occupiers."
36. Leave out from "undertaking" to "shall be."
58. Leave out Standing Order 58.
59. Leave out from "under the Bill" to "no money."
Appendix (A), Leave out from the beginning of the last paragraph of the form to "if there."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Notice is rather formidable in length, but I think I can explain it in a few sentences. These alterations to the Standing Orders have been discussed by those immediately concerned, and I am in agreement with them in moving them. Three points only are covered. I will merely mention them, and then make the Motion. The first point concerns the notice given in the Gazette. That notice is at present in a very elaborate form—far more elaborate than is necessary for the experts who would read it and would understand it perfectly in a very much shorter form. For that reason I suggest this new course, which will result in considerable economy. The second point deals with the method of making application to landowners. This is carried out in an unnecessarily complicated form. If your Lordships pass the Amendments standing in my name I can assure you that ample notice will be given to landowners and at the same time a great deal of unnecessary correspondence will be saved. The third point concerns Standing Order No. 35 and the following Standing Orders and relates to a point on which I am in agreement with the Board of Trade. It is a necessary alteration in view of recent Acts of Parliament. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Standing Orders relative to local Bills be amended as stated.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to and ordered accordingly.

ELECTRICITY (SUPPLY) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the adjourned debate on the Motion of Viscount PEEL, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
[The references are to Bill No. 59.]
Clause 1, page 1, line 20, leave out ("and manager")
Clause 1, page 2, line 10, after ("unremunerative") insert ("but in no case for a period of more than five years from the commencement of the financial year next after that in which such expenditure commences to be incurred")
Clause 1, page 2, line 15, after ("and") insert ("all the")
Clause 1, page 2, line 18, after ("period") insert ("not exceeding sixty years")
Clause 1, page 2, line 24, leave out from ("borrow") to the end of the clause and insert ("any sums in excess of the amount so fixed, otherwise than for the purpose of paying off loans previously raised, unless authorised by an order of the Electricity Commissioners confirmed by the Minister and such order shall be provisional only and shall not come into force unless confirmed by Parliament").
Clause 3, page 3, line 18, after ("1875") insert ("the Public Health Acts Amendment Act, 1890")
Clause 3, page 3, line 19, leave out ("that Act") and insert ("those Acts").
Clause 5, page 5, line 39, after ("scheme") insert ("under the principal Act")
Clause 5, page 5, line 39, after ("authority") insert ("or other body for the improvement of the organisation of the supply of electricity in any electricity district")
Clause 5, page 5, line 42, after ("authority") insert ("or body")
Clause 5, page 5, line 43, after ("authority") insert ("or body").
Clause 7, page 7, line 25, leave out ("or") and insert ("(b) those")
Clause 7, page 7, line 28, after ("furnish") insert ("to the Electricity Commissioners not later than the first day of March in each year")
Clause 7, page 7, line 29, leave out from ("them") to the end of line 32.
Clause 8, page 8, line 17, after the second ("of") insert ("the whole or any part of")
Clause 8, page 8, line 20, after ("may") insert ("in the option of the local authority").
Clause 11, page 9, line 18, at end insert:
("Provided that the joint electricity authority or authorised undertakers may at any time whilst

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a line is so retained apply to the Minister of Transport for a revision of the said terms and conditions, in which event the provisions of section twenty-two of the principal Act shall apply as if the retention of the line in position were the placing of an electric line across land, and the authority or undertakers shall not be required to remove the line pending the decision upon such application.")
After Clause 12, page 9, insert the following new clause:
Conditions under which restriction on generating stations and obligation, to take supply from are not to apply.
The Electricity Commissioners shall not—

(a) refuse, under section eleven of the principal Act, their consent to the establishment of a new, or the extension of an existing, generating station by any authorised undertakers if it is proved to the satisfaction of the Electricity Commissioners that, having regard to all the circumstances of the case, the undertakers are or will, if the consent be given, be in a position to give a supply of electricity adequate in quantity and regularity to meet present and prospective demands of their consumers at a cost not greater than that at which they could give a supply if they obtained a supply of electricity from some other available source designated by the Electricity Commissioners; or

(b) require under section nineteen of the principal Act any authorised undertakers to enter into an agreement for taking a supply of electricity from some other specified undertakers if it is proved to the satisfaction of the Electricity Commissioners that, having regard to all the circumstances of the case, including the duration of the period during which the supply is taken, and the estimated financial results likely to be obtained during that period, the undertakers would, if they obtained a supply of electricity from some other source, be in a position to give a supply of electricity adequate in quantity and regularity to meet the present and prospective demands of their consumers at a cost not greater than that at which they could give such a supply if they obtained the supply from those specified undertakers;

unless the Electricity Commissioners determine that such refusal or requirement is necessary in the interest of the general supply of electricity in the district whether provisionally or finally determined under the principal Act.
Clause 13, page 9, line 27, leave out ("may")
Clause 13, page 9, line 28, leave out ("constituting") and insert ("establishing")
Clause 13, page 9, line 29, leave out ("suspend") and insert ("may")
Clause 13, page 9, line 30, after ("undertakers") insert ("suspend")
Clause 13, page 9, line 35, leave out from ("fit") to ("and") in line 37
Clause 13, page 9, line 39, at end insert:
("Provided that no such powers shall be suspended under the provisions of this section except with the consent of the authority or authorities in whom the said powers are vested.
(2) Where under the powers of this section the Electricity Commissioners suspend any powers of purchase relating to the undertaking of any authorised undertakers or any part thereof they may make provision as to the relation between the prices which may be charged for electricity and the dividends to be paid by such undertakers.")
Clause 14, page 9, leave, out Clause 14.
Clause 15, page 10, line 10, after the second ("by") insert ("the order establishing that authority or by")
Clause 15, page 10, line 14, leave out ("the special order") and insert, ("such order as aforesaid")
Clause 16, page 10, line 7, leave out from ("Provided") to ("In") in page 11, line 8, and insert ("that, if in any particular part of the area of supply of a power company the power company are not willing and in a position to supply electricity to any local authority, company, or person, who is prepared to enter into a binding contract with that power company to continue to receive and pay for a supply of electricity upon such terms and conditions (including the payment of a minimum annual sum) as will, in the opinion of the Electricity Commissioners, afford an adequate return to the power company and is also (in the case of a company or person) prepared to give to the power company (if required by them so to do) security for the payment of all sums which may become due to the power company under the contract, then and in such case the Electricity Commissioners may, by special order under section twenty-six of the principal Act, authorise a joint electricity authority to supply electricity in that particular part of the area of supply of the power company without the consent of the power company.")
After Clause 16, page 11, insert the following new clause:
Special provisions as to power companies.
.—(1) The Electricity Commissioners may by the order establishing a joint electricity authority, or after the establishment of a joint electricity authority by an order made on the application of that authority, exclude from the area of supply of any power company, subject to such terms, conditions, and reservations as the Electricity Commissioners may think fit—

(a) any part of that area in which any right of the power company to supply electricity is subject to the absolute veto of some other authorised undertaker, and where the order provides for or is made conditional on the transfer to the joint electricity authority of the generating station from which a supply of electricity is given to the part of the area in question;

(b) any part of that area which at the time of the local inquiry on the scheme to which the order establishing the joint electricity authority gives effect, or, as the case may be, at the time of the application for the order, is not being supplied by the power company, and

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which it appears to the Electricity Commissioners could be better served by the joint electricity authority themselves or by that authority acting through any authorised undertakers; and

(c) with the consent of the power company any other part of the area of supply of the power company;

and in any such case the order may confer on the power company, subject to such conditions as the Electricity Commissioners may prescribe, power to supply electricity for all purposes in any other part of their area of supply which does not at the time form part of the area of supply of any authorised distributors.
Provided that where on the application of a joint electricity authority it is proposed to make such an order (not being an order made under section seven of the principal Act), and the power company, or any county council, local authority, or authorised undertakers which appear to the Electricity Commissioners to be interested object to the proposed order, effect shall not be given to the proposals except by a special order under section twenty-six of the principal Act.
(2) Where in pursuance of this section any part of the area of supply of a power company is by order excluded from such area of supply—

(a) the exclusion shall not affect any rights of the power company existing immediately before the making of the order to lay mains through the part so excluded, but any such rights may continue to be exercised by the power company notwithstanding such exclusion;

(b) the exclusion shall not prevent the power company from giving a supply of electricity at any point at their remaining area for the purpose of haulage or traction on any railway, tramway, or canal, and for the purpose of lighting vehicles and vessels used on any such railway, tramway, or canal which they could have supplied if the part of the area excluded under this section had remained part of their area of supply.

(3) Section fourteen of the principal Act is repealed.
Clause 17, page 11, line 39, leave out ("shall") and insert ("may")
Clause 17, page 12, line 9, leave out ("may") and insert ("shall").
After Clause 17, page 12, insert the following now clauses:
Amendment of section 5 of principal Act.
(".Section five of the principal Act (Electricity districts) shall have effect as if after the word 'authority,' in subsection (2) of that section, there had been inserted the words or other body.'")
Amendment of section 6 of principal Act.
(". Section six of the principal Act shall have effect as if after the word 'interests' in subsection (1) of that section there had been inserted the words ('including the persons employed in connection with the supply of electricity'), and as if after the words electricity
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district' where they last occur in that subsection there had been inserted the words and the conditions of employment of persons employed by the Joint Electricity Authority.'")
Clause 18, page 12, line 18, leave out ("arrangements") and insert ("arrangement")
Clause 18, page 12, line 22, at end insert:
("(2) The Minister of Labour may make rules as to the procedure before the referee or board of referees under the said section sixteen and may by those rules provide—

(a) for limiting the amount of costs and providing for the taxation thereof;

(b) for fixing the fees to be paid to the referee or members of the board of referees and for determining by whom such fees are to be paid.")

Clause 19, page 12, line 25, after ("undertakers") insert ("is hereby repealed, and such repeal shall apply to that schedule")
Clause 19, page 12, line 27, leave out from the beginning to ("and") in line 28, and insert ("before the passing of this Act")
Clause 19, page 12, line 30, after ("1899") insert ("or incorporates it subject to an exception of the said subsection")
Clause 19, page 13, line 3, after ("1899") insert ("or incorporates it subject to an exception of the said section thirty-two")
Clause 19, page 13, line 17, leave out ("price") and insert ("cost").
Clause 20, page 13, leave out Clause 20 and insert the following new clauses:
Standby supplies of electricity.
(". Notwithstanding anything in the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1919, or in this Act, or in any other Act of Parliament, or any Provisional Order or special order made under any such Act, a person shall not be entitled to demand or continue to receive for the purpose of a standby supply only from any authorised undertakers a supply of electricity for any premises having a separate supply of electricity or a supply (in use or ready for use for the purposes for which the standby supply of electricity is required) of gas, steam, or other form of energy unless he has agreed with the undertakers to pay to them such minimum annual sum as will give them a reasonable return on the capital expenditure incurred by them in providing such standby supply and will cover other standing charges incurred by them in order to meet the possible maximum demand for those premises. The sum to be so paid shall be determined in default of agreement by arbitration.
(2) Section fifteen of the Electric Lighting Act, 1909, is repealed.")
Provision as to railways, &c.
(". Notwithstanding anything contained in any Act or order electricity supplied by a joint electricity authority or power company within their district to any company or authority being the owners or lessees of a railway, tramway, dock, harbour or canal undertaking may be used by the company or authority receiving the supply for the purposes of haulage or traction or for lighting vehicles or vessels used on the railway, tramway, dock, harbour or canal on any part of the system of such company or authority.")
Clause 21, page 14, line 11, leave out ("nor") and insert ("who before giving their consent to

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a supply to any consumer shall have regard to the interests of any undertakers (other than electrical undertakers) who may be affected thereby, or")
Clause 21, page 14, line 12, leave out ("they") and insert ("the Commissioners")
Clause 21, page 14, line 23, after ("station") insert (",or of any generating station erected under statutory authority for the purpose of working tramways or light railways")
Clause 21, page 14, line 27, after ("the") insert ("Schedule to the")
Clause 21, page 14, line 36, after ("owners") insert ("or lessees").
After Clause 23, page 15, insert the following now clause:
Expenses of London County Council.
(". Any expense incurred by the London County Council under or in pursuance of this Act or the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1919, shall be defrayed as expenses for general county purposes.")
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (VISCOUNT PEEL): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be agreed to, and, if your Lordships would consent, I would move them en bloc, because the great bulk of them are drafting Amendments, while others which are not of the nature of drafting Amendments have been agreed to by the different interests concerned. I do not think there is any controversy remaining on any of those points.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Viscount Peel.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I quite agree that, so far as the drafting Amendments are concerned, the noble Viscount is pursuing a very proper course, but to move substantial Amendments en bloc is rather a strong measure, because I think your Lordships have a right to know what you are doing. I have no objection to offer to the Amendments myself. I have been advised as to what they contain, and I do not desire to call them in question. Therefore, I leave that in the hands of the noble Viscount, who is at least as much interested in preserving the proper procedure of your Lordships' House as I am. If he thinks the matter is of no great importance I shall not oppose him.
VISCOUNT PEEL: I cannot say that any of these Amendments are of any great importance; they just smooth odd corners.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 5, page 4, line 33, leave out "accordance with regulations made" and insert "such manner as may be determined."
Clause 7, page 6, line 32, leave out "extend" and insert "have extended."
VISCOUNT PEEL: I ought to mention that, besides the Amendments printed on the Paper, there are two Amendments made by the Commons which do not appeal on the Printed Paper, as they are Amendments to parts of the Bill passed by the Lords which were privileged, and were re-inserted in the Commons. In order to right the matter I will formally move that the privilege Amendments be agreed to as reinserted by the Commons.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Viscount Peel.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Does what the noble Viscount said just now apply to the privilege Amendments?
VISCOUNT PEEL: Yes, they are just drafting Amendments.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

EXPORTATION OF HORSES BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Lambourne.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DO NOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2:
Fee for licence, &c., to export horses.
2. Notwithstanding anything in section forty-seven of the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, or in section one of the Diseases of Animals Act, 1910, and subject to section three of this Act the fee payable for the examination prior to exportation or shipment of a horse by s veterinary inspector under the above-mentioned Acts shall be the sum of twenty pounds for each animal, and such fee shall be paid before the examination takes place to the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved to leave out "twenty pounds" and to insert "five shillings." The noble Duke said: The fee payable in Clause 2 to a veterinary

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inspector is £20 for each animal. All your Lordships sympathise very much with the object of this Bill and I hope that it will be carried out. But at the same time I do not think that your Lordships can intend, in passing this Bill, that the export of all horses except those under five years of age shall be prohibited. It is a very serious matter and will affect the breeding of horses which is difficult enough to carry on now with success. There are a very large number of perfectly sound and good horses exported which probably could not be sold with advantage otherwise.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 7, leave out ("twenty pounds") and insert ("five shillings").—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
LORD LAMBOURNE: I hope the noble Duke will not press this Amendment now, because we are intensely anxious to stop this traffic in old horses and I am sure he is, too. When the Bill goes down to another place during the recess I promise that I will endeavour with those who are working with me to meet the noble Duke's wishes in this respect.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Is the noble Lord prepared to agree to the point made, which seems to me to have considerable importance? If the noble Lord does not sympathise he might as well face the point and discuss it now.
LORD LAMBOURNE: I could not agree to the Amendment. We are of opinion that it would quite upset the whole Bill and that the traffic would go on exactly as it does now. For that reason I could not accept the Amendment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: May I suggest to the noble Lord that he had much better say plainly now, instead of postponing it, that he cannot accept the Amendment, and then we shall know where we are.
LORD LAMBOURNE: I have said so. I said that I could not possibly accept it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3:
Fee for licence, &c., in particular cases.
3. The fee payable for examination by a veterinary inspector prior to exportation or shipment of a horse shall be five shillings in the following cases:—
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(a) On the shipment of any horse which is certified to be registered in the recognised stud book of its breed by the official registrar or keeper of the said stud book:

(b) On the shipment of any horse certified by the veterinary inspector of the Ministry to be not more than five years of age:

Provided always that the certificate of the veterinary inspector of the Ministry shall contain a statement that the horse is of greater value than forty pounds and all necessary certificates shall be delivered at the time of shipment to the master of the vessel on which the animal is shipped, who shall, on demand, produce the same to any constable or any inspector or other officer of the Ministry or the local authority and allow such person to take a copy of or extract from each certificate.
LORD TENTERDEN LORD TENTERDEN moved, in the proviso to Clause 3, after "Ministry," where that word secondly appears, to insert "or of any recognised humane society." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is really in the nature of a suggestion to your Lordships. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 27, after ("Ministry") insert ("or of any recognised humane society").—(Lord Tenterden.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) it was moved, That these Amendments be now considered.—(Lord Lambourne.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Is it necessary that the Report stage should be taken now? I do not want to inconvenience my noble friend, but the Amendment which was last inserted was almost undefended and I should think it would be wise that we should look at it again tomorrow. If my noble friend presses his Motion I do not want to stop him, but I should think it would be wise to postpone it in view of the small Amendment which was put in by the noble Lord, Lord Tenterden, just now. I was rather surprised that my noble friend did not have something to say upon it. It is now in the Bill, and it cannot be altered again unless we have another day to consider it. Therefore, I suggest that the noble Lord would be wise to put the Bill down for to-morrow.
Motion, by leave, adjourned.

POST OFFICE (PARCELS) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD STANMORE: My Lords, the object of this small measure is to give sanction to an agreement which has been arrived at between the, Post Office and the railway companies, by which the companies have agreed to accept 40 per cent. instead of 55 per cent. of the actual postage as prescribed by the Parcels Act of 1882 on condition that the Post Office does not transfer the parcel mails to road transport. This will effect a considerable saving. Clause 1 (e) gives the railway companies the right to require a revision of their remuneration if the number of parcels conveyed otherwise than by rail exceeds 10 per cent. of the total number of parcels transmitted by post. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Stanmore.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

RAILWAY AND CANAL COMMISSION (CONSENTS) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (LORD GORELL): My Lords, this Bill is to extend by six months the time within which application has to be made and consent received to such application by the Railway and Canal Commissioners under certain Acquisition of Lands Acts. There are, I believe, over fifty cases awaiting decision. The date fixed under present legislation is August 31, and it will be impossible to consider them without an extension of the time. I beg to move.
Moved, that the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Gorell)
On Question, Bill be now read 2a, and committed to a committee of the Whole House.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) it was moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Gorell)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly: Bill reported without amendment.
Bill read 3a, and passed.

EXPIRING LAWS BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, this Bill is a hardy annual which comes up for consideration every year. It has already passed through all its stages in another place, and I beg to move that it be now read a second time by your Lordships' House.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Hylton.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX, having been suspended) it was moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Hylton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL of DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clauses 1, 2 and 3, agreed to.
Clause 4:
Amending enactments.
4. Any unrepealed enactments amending or affecting the enactments made permanent or continued by this Act shall, in so far as they are temporary in their duration, become permanent or be continued in like manner, whether they are mentioned in the First or Third Schedule (as the case may ho) to this Act or not.
LORD GAINFORD LORD GAINFORD moved, at the end of Clause 4, to insert "except the Workmen's Compensation (War Additions) Amendment Act, 1919, which shall not be continued by virtue of this Act." The noble Lord said: I wish to draw the attention of your Lordships to a point which appears to have escaped notice in another place. It is in connection with compensation for accidents. In 1906 a Bill was passed which compensated men in the event of accidents incurred in the course of their calling. In 1917, owing to the cost of living, that Bill was amended by an Act which increased the compensation by one-fourth. In the year 1919 a further Bill was passed through Parliament which increased the compensation by 75 per cent. over the amount paid under the Act of 1906.
The Mining Association of Great Britain asked me to direct your Lordships' attention to the very high compensation which is now being paid, at any rate to men engaged in the coalfields of Great Britain. I cannot speak for other industries, but I

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can speak for the coal milling industry, and what we have found in recent months has been this. A large body of men, and especially the younger men, instead of returning to work after their disablement has ceased, continue to draw benefit allowances from benefit societies as well as secure the amount of compensation paid under the Act of 1919, which is 75 per cent. greater than the amount which was originally intended to be given.
It has been difficult for me in the course of a few hours to obtain any definite statistics to enable me to make my case quite clear to your Lordships, but I have obtained figures relating to one small district. In this district the number of men receiving compensation is very similar to the number of men receiving it for the same three months ending April, 1914, but the amounts are very different. The amount of compensation paid by the industry to these men in the 1911 period was £3,066; it is now £7,609; so that, although the compensation has gone up by only 75 per cent. the amount of compensation paid is more than double that paid in the 1914 period. It is suggested by the coal-owners of that district that this is due to malingering, and the facts appear to bear that out, because, whilst a similar number of accidents have taken place, the number of those who apply for compensation for a period of under eight weeks has decreased from 761 to 640, and the number of those who have applied for compensation for a period of over eight weeks has increased from 164 to 226.
If these figures are an indication of what is going on throughout the country it is obvious that an unreasonable amount of compensation is being paid at the present time to men who have suffered accidents. I know your Lordships will feel that in such a matter as compensation for accidents one would rather be on the generous than on the ungenerous side, but after all it is unfair to the men who work that they should be receiving less money than those who are fit for work but who, having met with accidents, do not care to resume work, although they are fit to do so. Under the law as it at present exists I understand that there is practically no inducement for a workman to return to work unless he is compelled by a decree of the Court to do so.
In these circumstances I suggest to your Lordships it would be right and fair that the increased amount given by the Act of 1919 over the amount given by the Act
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of 1917 should be chopped, and that we should continue to pay an increased rate of compensation of 25 per cent. over and above what was originally intended. If that be done it will correspond very much with the cost of living that prevailed in 1917. Since 1919 the cost of living has gone down considerably. This change will, at any rate, put the industry in a better position, and, although the men themselves might not admit it, I am sure that it is in their interest that the cost of working coal should not be increased by items of this character which prejudice the hard worker and favour the malingerer. It is with a view to meet that position that I beg to move the Amendment which stands in my name.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 4, at end insert ("except the Workmen's Compensation (War Additions) Amendment Act, 1919, which shall not be continued by virtue of this Act.")—(Lord Gainford.)
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH (The EARL OF ONSLOW): The Amendment which the noble Lord seeks to make in this Bill is, I understand, to omit the Act of 1919. The Act of 1919 is a complement of the Act of 1917, which increased the benefits received under the Act of 1906. I think the object of the noble Lord is really to amend the law in regard to the amount of compensation to be paid, and I would submit that to omit from the Expiring Laws Continuance Act this Amending Act of 1919, which in effect only increased the benefit received under the previous Act, is not a very convenient method of dealing with the situation. The effect of the Amendment would be to go back to a 25 per cent. increase on the prewar scale, while the cost of living is still 80 per cent. above the pre-war scale. I admit that since 1919 the cost of living has decreased, but not, I submit, sufficiently to make it convenient or fair to go back absolutely to the 1917 level. As I think I explained three years ago when I introduced the Bill, it is in the nature of a temporary measure.
The Government, in 1920, appointed a Committee to go into the whole of this question with a view to general legislation, and that Committee reported in favour of substantial increases in the benefits. The Government have in view now a comprehensive measure to amend the Workmen's Compensation Act, and my right honour-

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able friend the Home Secretary is in touch with the representatives of employers and workers with a view to settle a Bill. I would suggest, therefore, to the noble Lord that the moment for the exhaustive consideration of this question is when a measure of general legislation is introduced, and not on the Expiring Laws Bill. The noble Lord touched on the question of malingering, and, of course, it is true that if a man is earning 40s. a week and is able to get 35s. a week by doing nothing there may be a temptation to him to malinger, but I think that would only be the case where a man is receiving some comparatively small sum such as 40s. a week as wages. If he is earning 50s. a week or more he does not gain very much by malingering, and I doubt whether malingering is generally practised.
LORD GAINFORD: The amounts which he gets from benefit societies will really induce him to absent himself from work.
TUE EARL OF ONSLOW: Even if the man is earning as much as 70s. per week? I rather doubt whether this is the moment to change the legislation on this matter. I admit that it requires consideration, and the Government are looking into When general legislation is introduced the question of fixing a better system of compensation will certainly be considered—such as adopting a sliding scale—but it is impossible at the moment to make a change in the existing system. There is the further point that the noble Lord's proposal would cut down the compensation received from 35s. to 25s. per week. Summarily to introduce a change of this nature would inflict hardship and injustice on a number of perfectly deserving persons. The only way to do it is by a general review of the law, and I trust a Bill will be introduced without any avoidable delay. I cannot give any undertaking as to when this Bill will be introduced, but the whole position will be reviewed by the Government. I trust the noble Lord will not insist upon the Amendment.
VISCOUNT LONG OF WRAXALL: It would be almost unprecedented to introduce into this Bill such an Amendment as is suggested by the noble Lord. This Bill exists for a totally different purpose, and may be fairly described as an omnibus Bill. But there is another objection to the Amendment. It deals only with a
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fragment of what is undoubtedly, a great difficulty; I had almost said a great evil. We are confronted now with a problem, in greater dimensions and more serious in its effect upon society than any which has confronted us for a long time—namely, the question of unemployment. It would be undesirable to deal with one small branch of the subject. on a Bill like this when the whole question calls for the most urgent and careful consideration by the Government. What is the effect upon unemployment of the present contributions made by the State, and from other sources to aid those who are temporarily out of work? And how far has the original intention of the "dole" to the unemployed passed from what it was intended to be—a bridge between service in the Forces and employment in civil work—and become a powerful attraction which induces those who can work, and have work offered them, not to take that work or not to work to their fullest extent? This is a serious evil just now, and it has a bearing on unemployment which is not recognised by those who have not taken the trouble to look into the subject.
I hope the noble Earl represented the view of the Government as a whole when he told us that the matter was being carefully considered. I hope the Government will be able to deal with it, and that they will deal with it in a comprehensive way. So long as from State resources, or from charity, or from benefit societies, an inducement is given to men not to take work because they can easily get what they regard as sufficient money without working, you will have the unemployment problem before you in little reduced degree from what it is now. The noble Earl asked a question as to whether a man who can earn good wages is likely to be tempted to remain out of work because he could get a lesser sum by not working. That is not a hypothetical question at all; that is a fact at the moment. Both men and women are content to take smaller sums, which they can easily get without working, than a larger sum by working. That was never intended by the State; it should not be allowed to continue, as it is a serious menace to the reduction of unemployment and to the manhood and womanhood of our people. It is thoroughly bad that they should be induced to remain out of work because they can get a "dole" which gives them enough to live upon. I hope the Government will take the whole question into consideration. Unless some-

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thing is clone the question of unemployment will continue to be one of the greatest evils with which we have to contend.
LORD GAINFORD: I do not propose to deal with the larger question to which the noble Viscount has just alluded, but I regard the matter as somewhat serious so far as some industries are concerned. Under this Bill, I understand, these rates will prevail until October, 1923, unless legislation is introduced between now and then. The noble Earl has said that the Home Office intends to introduce at an early date a Compensation Bill which will put all these matters on a more satisfactory basis. In asking leave to withdraw the Amendment I rely on the Government looking into this question between now and the autumn. I hope the Bill will be introduced then, or, if not, very early in the following session, and that it will deal promptly with these unjust and unreasonable rates which should not exist any longer than is necessary.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: It would be premature for me to say whether it will be possible to pass such a Bill this session. It is one of considerable perplexity and difficulty. But no unavoidable delay will be permitted.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 4 agreed to.
Clause 5 agreed to.
First and Second Schedules agreed to.
Third Schedule:

EXPIRING LAWS BILL.

  THIRD SCHEDULE.
  Enactments continued.

  1

  2

  3

  4

  Session and Chapter.

  Short Title.

  How far continued.

  Amending Acts.

  LORD HYLTON LORD HYLTON moved, after item 7, to insert the following—

  4 &5 Geo. 5, c. 78.

  The Courts (Emergency Powers) Act, 1914.

  So far as it relates (a) to enforcing the lapses of policies of insurance, and (b) to orders made by any Court before the thirty-first day of August, 1921.

  5 & 6 Geo. 5, c. 17. 6 & 7 Geo. 5, c. 13. 6 & 7 Geo. 5, c. 18. 7 & 8 Geo. 5, c. 25. 9 & 10 Geo. 5, c. 64. 10 Geo. 5, c. 25.

  The noble Lord said: It is necessary to continue for the present the provisions of the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act, 1914, so far as they prevent the enforcement of the lapse of policies of insurance (except by order of the Court). If these provisions were allowed to expire, a very large number of insurance policies could be cancelled in cases where premiums were not paid during the war—all of which cases were to have been dealt with by the industrial Assurance Bill if it had been proceeded with.
  Amendment moved—
  After item (7) insert the said words.—(Lord Hylton.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Third Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
  Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Amendment reported, Bill read 3a, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) (SUPERANNUA- TION) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Beading read.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, under this Bill Scottish teachers will be required to contribute 5 per cent. of their salaries towards the cost of their pensions. The Bill, in short, does for Scotland precisely what the corresponding English Bill does for England. Your Lordships have already passed the English measure, and I will therefore refer only very briefly to two respects in which this Bill differs from the English Bill.
In the first place, the Scottish Bill is partly an enabling Bill. While the Bill specifies the amount of contribution to be levied, the circumstances in which contributions will be returned will be left to be detailed in the scheme to be framed under Clause 2. In this we are simply proposing to follow the procedure adopted with success in connection with the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908, and, later, in the Scottish Superannuation Act, 1919. Clause 4 has no corresponding provision in the English Bill. It is, however, a purely formal financial provision for the payment of certain annuities purchased

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under the Elementary School Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1898.
There is only one further point of which I need remind your Lordships. The Burnham scales do not apply to Scotland, and consequently any questions which have been raised regarding those scales have no bearing on the present Bill. In Scotland a minimum scale of salaries was fixed under the Education (Scotland) Act, 1918, but there was no understanding as to the duration of those scales, which axe open to revision at any time. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Duke of Atholl.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the whole House.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) it was moved, That the House do forthwith resolve itself into Committee.—(The Duke of Atholl.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly: Bill reported without Amendment.
Bill read 3a, and passed.

ALLOTMENTS BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day read for the consideration of Commons Amendments.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF ANCASTER): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
THE EARL OF ANCASTER: Before we enter into consideration of these Amendments I think it might be for the convenience of the House if I were to state in a very few words what are the chief alterations that have been made in the Bill. The first is on page 2, line 5, which deals with the re-entry of railway companies and also of local authorities upon land which has been cultivated as allotments. The second of the chief Amendments refers to the period during which compulsory orders for hiring land will require confirmation from the Ministry. The third of the principal
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Amendments deals with the composition of the allotments committees. Those are the three chief alterations in the Bill, and, with one or two minor exceptions, I shall ask your Lordships to agree with the Commons Amendments.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Does the noble Lord wish to move that the Commons Amendments be agreed to?
THE EARL OF ANCIASTER: With one or two exceptions.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
[The references are to Bill No. 95.]
Clause 1, page 1, ling 19, after ("in") insert ("or affecting")
Clause 1, page 1, line 25, after ("in") insert ("or affecting").
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Ancaster.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 1, page 2, lire 5, after ("provision") insert ("but so that, except in a case of emergency, three months' notice in writing of the intended re-entry shall be given to the tenant; or
"(d) re-entry under a power in that behalf contained in or affecting the contract of tenancy, in the case of land let by a local authority (being land which was acquired by the local authority before the passing of this Act under the Housing Acts, 1890 to 1921) on account of the land being required by the local authority for the purposes of those Acts, and, in the case of other land let by a local authority, after three months' previous notice in writing to the tenant on account of the land being required by the local authority for a purpose (not being the use of bind for agriculture) for which it was acquired by the local authority, or has been appropriated under any statutory provision").
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Ancaster.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 1, page 2, line 7, leave out ("breach of the contract of") and insert ("non-payment of rent or breach of any term or condition of the").
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Ancaster.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I hope the noble Earl will explain to US whether there is anything of substance in these Amendments.
THE EARL OF ANCASTER: The Amendments which have just been agreed to—
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Do not go back to what we have done.
THE EARL OF ANCASTER: This is the question of re-entry.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Allow me to reassure the noble Marquess by saying that the Amendment to line 7 does not involve a point of grave substance.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Perhaps I should explain. I do not desire to interfere with the noble Earl in any way wantonly or unnecessarily. So far as I know there is nothing to be objected to in the Amendment, but I think that, in the interests of your Lordships' House, I ought to say that it is a growing and rather an evil practice that we should be asked to agree to Amendments of considerable substance without any explanation at all from the Minister who is responsible. I do not refer, of course, to drafting Amendments, or even to Amendments of small import, but wherever my noble friend moves to agree with an Amendment of importance which the other House has inserted, I think it is only due to the dignity of your Lordships' House that he should explain exactly what we are doing.
THE EARL OF ANCASTER: In response to what the noble Marquess has said, I shall have great pleasure in doing so.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: In the meantime the noble Earl moves to agree with the Amendment to line 7 in the conviction that no such point arises.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 1, page 2, line 14, leave out ("re-entry made").
THE EARL OF ANCASTER: This is a drafting Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Ancaster.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Does that apply to the whole of the Amendments until you come to page 3?
THE EARL OF ANCASTER: They are all drafting.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 1, page 2, line 24, after ("any") insert ("such")
Clause 1, page 2, line 26, at end insert:
("(4) This section shall not apply to land held by or on behalf of the Admiralty, War Department, or Air Council, and so let as aforesaid when possession of the land is required for naval, military, or air force purpose.")
Clause 2, page 2, line 37, after ("and") insert ("is so terminated either—
"(a)")
Clause 2, page 2, line 38, at end insert ("or
"(b) by re-entry at any time under paragraph (b) or paragraph (c) or paragraph (d) of subsection (1) of the last preceding section").
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Ancaster.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 2, page 2, line 43, leave out from ("land") to the end of subsection (3) and insert:
("(4) A tenant whose tenancy is terminated by the termination of the tenancy of his landlord shall be entitled to recover from his landlord such compensation (if any) as would have been recoverable if his tenancy had been terminated by notice to quit given by his landlord.
(5) Any sum due to the landlord from the tenant in respect of rent or of any breach of the contract of tenancy under which the land is held, or wilful or negligent damage committed or permitted by the tenant, shall be taken into account in reduction of the compensation.")
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Ancaster.)
THE EARL OF MIDLETON: My Lords, I do not know whether your Lordships understand what is intended by the change made by the House of Commons in this clause. Under this clause, notwithstanding any agreement to the contrary, the tenant is to get compensation, but under subsection (4) "a tenant whose tenancy is terminated by the termination of the

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tenancy of his landlord shall still be entitled to recover from his landlord such compensation (if any) as would have been recoverable if his tenancy had been terminated by notice to quit given by his landlord." It does seem to me a very extraordinary provision that a landlord having sublet to a tenant on the clear agreement that no compensation should he claimed, is to be liable to pay compensation even although his own tenancy in connection with the holding has disappeared. The superior tenancy lapses, and yet he, in respect of the subletting which under agreement was not to be subject to the payment of compensation, is forced to pay compensation. I think it is really carrying the matter too far, and I therefore move that this House cloth disagree with the Commons Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth disagree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Midleton.)
THE EARL OF ANCASTER: My Lords, I hope the noble Earl will not continue his opposition to this Amendment. The words left out limit the compensation for manure to such manure as was applied to the land since the taking of the last crop therefrom in anticipation of a future crop. It was pointed out elsewhere that there might conceivably be value to the landlord or incoming tenant of manure not so applied. By a subsequent Amendment in the interpretation clause the value is to be ascertained on the basis of the value to the incoming tenant, and therefore I think there is no objection to the Amendment. Subsection (4) which has been inserted is necessary to secure to the allotment holder compensation for crops where the tenancy is terminated not by the landlord automatically but by the termination of the tenancy under which the landlord or superior tenant holds the land. It follows subsection (4) of Clause 9. Subsection (5) is the same provision as is already found in the analogous case dealt with in Clause 3, subsection (3).
THE EARL OF MIDLETON: My Lords, I do not think the argument of the noble Earl is very conclusive. The landlord may have let to a tenant with the knowledge that his own tenancy will terminate in two years, and he lets with the clear understanding that there is to be no compensation payable in consequence of this termination. But by this subsection, for the first time,
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so far as I know, in any Act of Parliament, it is provided that where a man has made an agreement knowing his own tenure is limited, and that therefore he does not wish to be, and ought not to be, held assessable for compensation when his own holding lapses, it is still to be held that the tenant who had no rights against him is to have rights against him after he, the landlord, has terminated his connection with the holding.
VISCOUNT LONG OF WRAXALL: My Lords, I hope the noble Earl in charge of the Bill will reconsider his decision. We are making new departures in this Bill with regard to compensation which I think are extremely dangerous. As I understand—I have not seen this Amendment and I do not know anything about it, beyond what we have been told— it is the case that the superior tenant, after he has ceased to have any connection with the property, is to be held liable to pay compensation to the allotment tenant. If that is the case, and my noble friend goes to a Division, I shall support him, because I think it is not only unfair to those who may be in the position of a superior tenant, but I think it is thoroughly bad in the interests of the allotment system. If you want to extend the allotment system, and to supply the demand for allotments, you want to make the law as simple and as little burdensome as you can. This points in a wholly opposite direction, and unless we can hear something more satisfactory than we have heard so far I hope that my noble friend will press his Motion to a Division.
THE EARL OF ANCASTER: I do not know that I have much to add to what I have already said, except that under this Bill, as it now stands, nobody can contract out of having to pay compensation, and I think it would be dangerous not now to agree to this Amendment.
THE EARL OF MIDLETON: Seeing that the Commons Amendments have only been circulated to-day I must press my Motion.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I am going to make a suggestion to the Government. I do not know whether they will take it. Two or three noble Lords approached rue before the meeting of the House and suggested that it was rather unreasonable to take the Commons Amendments to-night. They said they

1027
had had no time thoroughly to examine them, and that they had to take them on trust. I made the reply which I think would have been made by any experienced member of your Lordships' House, that if there was any objection of substance I thought they had a strong case, but that if it was a matter of form I did not think it was worth while asking your Lordships to postpone the Bill.
It now appears that there are objections of substance, and I think it is clear from the short discussion that several of your Lordships are rather in doubt as to the exact effect of the Commons Amendments. I am certainly not in a position to enlighten them. I saw the Amendments for the first time five minutes ago, and I think that the Government will not lose any time by postponing the further consideration until to-morrow. In the time that will elapse those interested in the Bill will be able to make themselves acquainted with the facts, and I think that probably the noble Earl, Lord Ancaster, if he agrees to this postponement will find that the Bill will then go through without any more trouble. If, however he presses the acceptance of the Commons Amendment now, we shall probably have to divide against him.
THE EARL OF ANCASTER: If it is the general wish of your Lordships I shall be pleased to postpone the consideration of the Commons Amendments until tomorrow. I do not think this actual Amendment is one of great importance, because in cases like this it is perfectly clear that allotments would be let to a council or allotment authority, who would sublet them to sub-tenants, and it is hardly fair that the sub-tenant should lose his right to compensation.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I beg to move that the debate be now adjourned.
Moved accordingly, and on Question Motion agreed to.

GREEKS IN ASIA MINOR.
LORD LAMINGTON LORD LAMINGTON had the following Notice on the Paper, To ask his Majesty's Government whether the telegram in The Times of July 27 is correct in saying that the Greek Government will not abandon her ties with Asia Minor; whether great
1028
distress does not prevail in the territories occupied by the Greeks; whether any financial assistance is being given by this country with the sanction of the Government; and, whether the permission given to Greek ships of war to pass through the Bosphorus was not a breach of that neutrality which the Government stated would be observed as between Greece and Turkey.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the question in my name is rather prophetic of a step which has been taken in the last few days—a very bold step taken by the Greek Government, in asking that they should be allowed to march to Constantinople. From the reply of the Government I am very glad to see that a strong remonstrance has been addressed by the Allied Powers to Greece, and that they have pointed out that serious consequences would ensue if Greece persisted in her desire. Personally, I should have liked a stronger course to be taken. The simpler course would have been to state that our ships would blockade her ports. What I have said covers the first part of my Question, and I hope I shall get in the reply some information as to what is taking place. Events have been moving pretty rapidly, and it is to be hoped that the Government will show that they do not intend that any further affront should be placed on Turkey.
The second portion of my Question refers to the condition of the people who are living in Asia Minor and elsewhere under Greek occupation. I know it is the general view that Turkey's rule is absolutely barbaric, and that nothing but cruelties result. I think that if any attempt at all were made to ascertain the truth it would be realised that that view was incorrect. Notable statements have been made by various people showing that what the Turks have suffered at the hands of the Greeks has been quite as bad as any treatment which has been inflicted upon the Greeks by the Turks. We know that very great cruelties were inflicted on the absolutely innocent Moslem population living in Smyrna and the adjacent district in 1919. A Commission was appointed to inquire into that, and presented a Report, but we have never been allowed to see that Report. Other Reports have been made, one signed by representatives of the United States, France, ourselves, and Italy, who one and all condemned Greek action at that time.
I have had personal word from people who were eye-witnesses of the ravages and horrors perpetrated by the Greeks, and within the last two or three days various documents have been sent to me to show that the Greeks have behaved with the greatest oppression and cruelty towards the Turkish inhabitants. The most notable evidence of all is in a book written by Mr Arnold Toynbee, who, I think I am right in saying, originally went out to those parts rather as a pro-Greek, if anything. I have only had time to dip into the book, but I came across this passage:
"The atrocities have been revealed in their true light as crimes incidental to en abnormal process which all parties have committed in turn."
I should also like to know when the Commission of Inquiry which the Moslems, and particularly the Moslems of this country and India, desired some months ago should be sent to Asia Minor, is to be appointed. I do not know why it should have taken so long. I see that Mr. Lloyd George, in a statement made in another place, said that there had been difficulties with other Powers. It seems inconceivable that these massacres should be allowed to continue simply because the Powers cannot agree as to who should be on this Commission. There must be some other reason than that.
My next Question refers to the fact that we have broken the undertaking of neutrality which we made at the outset of these hostilities between Greece and Turkey. I am informed on fairly good authority that last year we certainly allowed arms to be supplied to Greece. But, whether that can be substantiated or not, it is a fact that we have been conniving at the giving of financial assistance to Greece. I brought up this matter some months ago, and the Government could not dispute that under the Trade (Facilities) Act Greece would be allowed to obtain some financial help. I do not, however, know what the present position is, and hence I have put this Question to the Government. I saw in the Press not very long ago that some money had been sent for so-called development in Macedonia. But once money is supplied to Greece in any form you cannot be sure that it will be earmarked for the specific purpose for which it is apparently going to be used.
I think it is time that the Government became alive to the monstrous state of affairs which has been allowed to continue
1030
ever since the Armistice. They have followed an absolutely indecisive policy, and they have never adhered to any given undertaking. The Prime Minister, in 1918, said:
"Nor are we fighting … to deprive Turkey of its capital, or of the rich and renowned lands of Asia Minor which are predominantly Turkish in race … We do not challenge the maintenance of the Turkish race, with its capital at Constantinople."
I regard that as a pledge and so did millions of Moslems, more particularly the seventy millions of Moslems in India who had been fighting against their co-religionists, giving the best of their blood to help the Allied cause. They were getting anxious, and that declaration was made more or less to reassure them. Very recently we had a discussion here about a pledge. The noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, in a forcible speech, said he had intended to give a pledge himself about the admission of Canadian cattle to this country, but I think he regretted that the Government had been committed by what was termed a pledge, but what, to my mind, was merely a declaration of policy—and, moreover, one which did not call for any corresponding obligation from the other party.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Is it the noble Lord's view that if a statement of intention, formally expressed, might properly be described as a declaration of policy, it may not be considered a pledge?
LORD LAMINGTON: Not a pledge in the ordinary sense of the word.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am sure the noble Lord would desire to reconsider that.
LORD LAMINGTON: That, at all events, is my view. But this is a far stronger case. There was nothing given by Canada to us, but here is a case in which the Moslems have poured out their blood to fight out battles, and to reassure them you make the statement that their co-religionists will not be deprived of certain possessions and certain religious privileges. If the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack feels so strongly about pledges, I wish he would impress his views on the Government, and urge them to carry out, before it is too late, those promises which have been made to

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the Moslems throughout the world. If ever there were pledges given and not acted up to they were the pledges given to the Turks and the Arabs.
It was on March 26 last that the noble Marquess, Lord Curzon, issued a Memorandum stating that Greece would be given four months to clear out of Asia Minor. The four months have gone and the Greeks are still there. In the first part of my Question I ask whether it is true that "the Greek Government will not abandon her ties with Asia Minor." What is this will-o'-the-wisp policy? I have asked several people how they account for the fact that the Government connives at the support of the Greeks. You are not acting in harmony with your French Allies in the matter, and I am confident that you are doing no good to Greece. Greece herself would never for a moment have thought of this march on Constantinople, and she could not stay there a day, unless she had some moral if not direct support from us. We are only encouraging her in a most dangerous enterprise. I would again refer your Lordships to that very notable book by Mr. Toynbee in which he said that not only the Turks but the Greeks, too, watch every move and expect every help they can get from the Western nations. Our influence is so enormous all over the East, especially in the Near East, that it is essential that we should reassure the Moslem world that we are not further breaking our word. I beg to move.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (THE EARL OF CRAWFORD): My Lords, I must apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Lamington, in the first place for the absence of Lord Balfour. I cannot, I am afraid, go into the large questions of policy which the noble Lord has raised, but I can give general answers to the four Questions which he has placed on the Paper. As to the first, His Majesty's Government is not in a position to make any statement to the House as to what may or may not be the intentions of the Greek Government. As regards distress, the information naturally is not very specific, but it goes to show that there is no great distress prevailing in the territories occupied by the Greeks. At any rate, so far as information is in the possession of the Government, it would appear that the conditions in the Greek districts are better than those prevailing in the Turkish districts, though, naturally enough, in both
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districts, in fact over the whole country, suffering must exist owing to the continuance of a state of war.
LORD LAMINGTON: When the noble Earl says "the Turkish districts," does lie mean in Asia Minor or in Europe?
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: No; I mean the districts which were or are now occupied by the Greeks. I was not talking about ex-Turkish districts like Palestine, for instance: I was speaking in relation to Greek occupied territory. As regards the third Question, the answer is in the negative.
LORD LAMINGTON: There is no financial assistance?
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: That is the financial question. Finally, as to the permission given for the passage of Greek ships of war through the Bosphorus, that passage was not a breach of neutrality. The noble Lord said on several occasions that we had broken our pledges, and when I invited an explanation it appeared to me that his definition of the word "neutrality" was of a decidedly oblique character. I certainly do not accept offhand the charge that this country has broken its pledges right and left as the noble Lord indicates. In any case it has been often stated, and I think it must be general property, that no special permission is required or is given for the passage of Greek ships of war through the Bosphorus. It does not involve any breach of Allied neutrality in regard to the Greco-Turkish conflict. The pre-war arrangements respecting the neutrality of the Straits were terminated by the passage of the "Goeben" and "Breslau" through the Dardanelles in 1914, and by the gratuitous entry of Turkey into the war against the Allies. Pending fresh international arrangements, the Straits are open to warships of all nations except in so far as this may be incompatible with the Armistice with Turkey of October, 1918.
The last question put by the noble Lord, Lord Lamington, related to the Commission of Inquiry, and I am afraid that without Notice he must excuse me from giving any reply. I am not in a position to make any statement on that subject.
LORD LAMINGTON: My Lords, I do not quite understand the position when it is said by the noble Earl that there was no breach of neutrality by the passage of

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Greek ships through the Bosphorus, both shores of which are at present I imagine distinctly Turkish. Certainly if there were not a High Commissioner and Allied Forces in Constantinople those ships of war would not have been allowed to pass. It may be considered that it is owing to the force, the latent force perhaps, at Constantinople that these ships of war have been allowed to go through to the Black Sea and to bombard Turkish towns. Even the Soviet Government, with which some members of His Majesty's Government want to open up friendly relations, protested very strongly indeed, as I understand from a French newspaper, against these ships of war going up the Bosphorus. There is a saying that might is right, but it is not enough to state that this act was not a breach of neutrality. I think it is a great pity indeed that ever that permission was accorded by His Majesty's Government.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

BAGDAD RAILWAY.
LORD LAMINGTON: My Lords, I beg to ask whether the Bagdad Railway is open to traffic; and, if so, what country is or countries are responsible for its management. I placed this Question on the Paper for the purpose of obtaining infor-
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mation. A few years ago when this work was under construction it excited a great deal of attention in Parliament and was the subject of much negotiation between ourselves and Germany, and it is very remarkable that now no one knows anything of it. I want to ask the noble Earl what has happened to this line of railway. I have seen what a wonderful work it is and what a strong link it should be between nations and even between Empires. It is wonderfully constructed and one would like to know what is its present condition, whether it is maintained in good repair, and so on.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, I can give the noble Lord fairly accurate information about certain parts of this railway. As far as can be ascertained, the portion of the Bagdad Railway south-east of Konia and nearly as far as Adana, is in the hands of and is worked by the Kemalists, while the remaining portion of the line to the Euphrates is controlled by the French and is worked by them. The section lying beyond the Euphrates is understood to be in a neglected condition, and the small section which was built between Bagdad northwards to Samara is controlled by the Iraq Administration, and, I believe, is in good working order.
House adjourned at twenty minutes before six o'clock.