Lords Sitting of 10 April 1922

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The EARL of DONOUGHMORE on the Woolsack.

AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS BILL. [H.L.]
THE EARL OF ANCASTER: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to consolidate certain enactments relating to agricultural holdings in England and Wales, and to move that it he read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Earl of Ancaster.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

NAVAL DISCIPLINE BILL. [H.L.]
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, on behalf of the First Lord of the Admiralty, Lord LEE Of FAREHAM, I beg leave to introduce the Naval Discipline Bill, and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Hylton.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

EAST INDIA LOANS (RAILWAYS AND IRRIGATION) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read 1a, and to be printed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (THE EARL OF CRAWFORD): My Lords, with regard to the East India Loans (Railways and Irrigation) Bill and the Unemployment Insurance Bill, may I say that, to-morrow, I shall put down a Notice asking your Lordships to pass these Bills before the House rises on Wednesday next. It is possible that I may make the same request with regard to the Kenya Divorces (Validity) Bill, but I am not sure about that. It may, however, be a great source of consolation to the parties that this Bill should likewise be passed at the earliest possible moment. The Army and
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Air Force (Annual) Bill will be read a second time to-day, and I shall ask your Lordships to take the Committee and ultimate stages to-morrow.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I do not suppose there will be any objection to the course suggested by the noble Earl except, possibly, in regard to the Unemployment Insurance Bill, as to which I think your Lordships will require some justification for the suspension of the Standing Order.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: I think perhaps it would be well to offer that justification when a Motion to that effect is put down.
LORD MUIR MACKENZIE: May I ask whether the Unemployment Bill is certified to be a Money Bill?
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: It is not so certified. May I also mention to your Lordships in general, and to Lord Muir Mackenzie in particular, that the Committee stage of the Lunacy Bill will not be taken to-day.

UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read 1a, and to be printed.
KENYA DIVORCES (VALIDITY) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read 1a, and to be printed.
LAND DRAINAGE PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read 1a, and to be printed.

MERCHANDISE MARKS BILL. H.L.
LORD GORELL: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to amend the Merchandise Marks Acts, and to move that it now be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Gorell.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

TORQUAY CORPORATION (ELECTRICITY) BILL. [H.L.]
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, with reference to the first Bill on the Paper—the Torquay Corporation (Electricity) Bill—which is down for Second Reading, I beg leave to postpone it until to-morrow.
LEICESTER FREEMEN BILL.
Read 2a, and committed.
TRAFFORD PARK BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

R.I.C.PENSIONS AND GRATUITIES.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE had given Notice to ask His Majesty's Government if they will state the amounts of the pensions or gratuities, and also of any grant or grants on disbandment to which officers and men of each rank in the Royal Irish Constabulary are now entitled, and how far these amounts will be charged to Imperial and how far to Irish funds.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I do not desire to raise any discussion on this subject this afternoon. Indeed, I would have starred my Question, indicating that I had no such intention, but for the fact that I desired to mention to your Lordships that the matter is one which has raised a good deal of interest, not to say anxiety, throughout the Royal Irish Constabulary, who are the people concerned. We were anxious to raise a debate upon the whole subject of the terms of disbandment, which have not by any means given satisfaction to a loyal and splendid force, but we felt that the facts should he fully before us before we did so. For this reason I put the Question which stands in my name.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, the terms on which the Royal Irish Constabulary will be disbanded are set out in detail in a Paper (Cmd. 1618) presented to Parliament on Thursday last. In addition to the terms set out in the Paper, it has since been decided that, during the next three months, separation allowance at the rate of 14 s. and 28 s. per week shall be granted respectively to any man or officer of the Force whose home is outside Northern Ireland, and who goes to Great Britain and leaves his family
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in Ireland. It is hoped that this grant, in addition to the disturbance allowance and free travelling allowance already provided for, will enable every member of the Force who may be in danger if he returns to his home to avoid such danger.
As regards the incidence of the cost of these terms, under Article 10 of the Treaty the total cost of compensation allowances payable to members of the Force, except those payable in respect of members of the Force recruited in Great Britain during the two years preceding the date of the Treaty, and except those payable in respect of such proportion of the Force as were stationed at the date of disbandment within the area of the Northern Government, will be recovered from the Free State Government, while, as regards compensation allowances payable in respect of such proportion of the Force as were stationed within the area of the Government of Northern Ireland, it has been agreed that that Government will repay to the Imperial Government so much of the cost as they would have been required to pay had the provisions of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, relating to the R.I.C. remained in force.
The compensation allowance payable to members of the Force recruited in Great Britain during the two years preceding the date of the Treaty, as well as the disturbance allowances, travelling expenses and separation allowances payable to the Force on disbandment, and also so much of the compensation allowances payable in respect of those members of the Force stationed within the area of the Government of Northern Ireland as that Government would not have been required to pay had the provisions of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, relating to the Royal Irish Constabulary, remained in force, will be payable by the Imperial Government.
THE EARL OF DESART: May I ask the noble Earl whether the Command Paper to which he has referred will be circulated without application? I have not seen it up to the present.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: I am informed by the Clerk of the Parliaments that this document will be circulated to your Lordships without application.
THE EARL OF DESART; Will the reply which the noble Earl has given also be circulated as a Command Paper?
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: I am afraid not, because a Command Paper is already printed and is in circulation. My reply will appear in the OFFICIAL REPORT tomorrow, and I think it would be a pity to have to recall the Command Paper in order to make this addition.
THE EARL OF DESART: I quite follow that.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, perhaps I did not fully understand what the noble Earl said, but I gathered that certain payments which are to be due to the disbanded Constabulary will be recoverable from the Free State Government by members of the Royal Irish Constabulary enlisted earlier than two years ago. I am not quite sure of the meaning of the noble Earl's phrase. Does it mean that this money can be recovered by the Imperial Government, or does it refer to the man himself? If it is to be recovered by the man himself, I am afraid it is not certain that he will ever get it. The question is whether, in the first instance, the Imperial Government will hold thems elves responsible for all these payments. If that is so, then by all means let them recover from the Free State what; the Free State ought to pay under the Treaty.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, I appreciate what Lord Salisbury says, but I hesitate to construe the words, because, as your Lordships may have observed, the phrase I used was somewhat complicated and lengthy. I fancy, however—I put it no higher than that—that it is the duty of the British Government to recover in the adjustment of finance that takes place between the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Free State Government. I will make inquiry, however, and communicate directly with Lord Salisbury upon the subject.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am very much obliged to the noble Earl.

DISEASES OF ANIMALS BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF ANCASTER): My Lords, the reason for
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this Bill is the unfortunate outbreak of foot and mouth disease which has occurred during the last, few months and which, as most of your Lordships are aware, has unhappily thrown a very considerable charge upon the country. The Bill is intended to suspend the limitation imposed by Section 10 of the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, upon the amount of money which may be provided by Parliament towards defraying the cost of stamping out foot and mouth disease. Under that section the amount of money which may be paid by the Ministry in any one financial year is£140,000. This Bill proposes that the limitation of£140,000 shall not apply to moneys provided in the financial year which ended on March 31 last. I may say that the money has already been provided in another place, and this is only a Bill to give legislative effect to that Resolution. We hope that the disease is now well in hand, and although the country is not entirely free from outbreaks of foot and mouth disease, their number has been diminishing every week. Last week, according to the latest return, the number was ten, and the week before twelve. These figures show a very satisfactory fall from the highest total of 280 outbreaks in one week.
Unfortunately, in addition to this money, I am afraid that a certain amount will fall upon the local rates. Of the sum of£140,000 stipulated under the original Act,£40,000 was for stamping out swine fever. Therefore, only£100,000 is left for dealing with foot and mouth disease. During the last thirty-two years the expense which has fallen on the Local Taxation Account has averaged only some£9,000 a year, and it is of course a most unfortunate thing that such a heavy burden should come this year. We still believe that the policy we have adopted of slaughtering is the right one to pursue in order to exterminate the disease, and I only hope that your Lordships will think the money well spent in this direction. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.— (The Earl of Ancaster.)
LORD STRACHIE: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Earl whether he can give us any idea what the amount will be that will fall upon the local rates. He said that the Bill would not entirely relieve the local ratepayer of any charges, but he gave no indication of what the charge was

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likely to be. I have heard various estimates ranging from a halfpenny to a penny in the£. While we are now on the question of animal diseases, I should also like to ask if he has had any communication from the Central Chamber of Agriculture as to whether this outbreak of foot and mouth disease came from Ireland or not. I was not present at the last meeting of the Central Chamber, but I have noticed a statement made there by Lord Dewhurst that according to his information the outbreak had been traced directly to Ireland, and that they had communicated with the Department on the subject.
Therefore, I would ask the noble Earl whether he has had any communication from the Central Chamber; whether he is absolutely satisfied that the disease did not come from Ireland; whether the Department are satisfied that the arrangements now made by the Irish Free State for detecting any outbreak of the disease is efficient; whether the system of control of disease of animals exercised before by the Irish Board of Agriculture is now being exercised by another staff of officials; what arrangements are made by the Irish Free State to control outbreaks of disease in that country; and, further, whether the Department is satisfied that all precautions are being taken in Ireland to prevent any disease being imported into this country.
I think it is all the more necessary that precautions should be taken in this matter because I notice that an Order has been laid upon the Tables of both Houses, permitting the importation of one hundred Friesian cattle into this country from South Africa. Of course, they will come in under quarantine, but when we have had this tremendous outbreak of disease the agriculturists in this country are thoroughly frightened. Moreover, the dairying interest is being carried on under great difficulties, as the noble Earl knows, and it seems rather a curious time to choose for admitting these hundred cattle from South Africa. I suppose the noble Earl is quite satisfied that there is no foot and mouth disease, or any other cattle disease, in South Africa, and that he is aware that his predecessor said that only Friesian cattle would be imported that had a record of 1,000 gallons of milk a year, and therefore were the finest animals. I should like to have some assurance on these matters.
THE EARL OF ANCASTER: My Lords, the noble Lord has asked a great many questions, which I will try to answer as well as I can. As regards expenditure, I think it is fairly clear that the vote out of the Local Taxation Account this year will eat up the whole£100,000, and, in addition to that, by the permission given by this Bill Parliament has voted another£400,000. It may please the noble Lord to know that it was done by a dummy Vote, and that the money will be found by savings in other directions. It has been estimated that the total cost will be something in the nature of£1,000,000—we think it will be less—and that will leave another£500,000 to come upon the rates. I cannot say how much in the£ it will put on the rates, but I cannot conceive that it would be anything like a halfpenny or even a farthing in the£.
I do not know that it has any bearing actually upon this Bill, but the noble Lord asked a question with regard to the position in Ireland. I believe that at one time ninety-nine farmers out of every hundred were fully convinced that this outbreak came from Ireland. Of course, human knowledge is always liable to err—there is no certainly about anything—but I have attended a great many meetings at which the whole matter was discussed, and I have heard a great deal of evidence, but I have never heard a single piece of solid evidence showing that this outbreak originated in Ireland. On the contrary, there is a good deal of evidence that there can be no foot and mouth disease in Ireland. During the whole of this period fat cattle have been coming into this country from Ireland. They are brought into this country and remain in the lairages for from twenty-four to forty-eight hours. A period of nearly five days elapses between the time they leave Ireland until they are slaughtered, and it is an astonishing thing, if foot and mouth disease exists in Ireland and has been there for the last three or four months, that it is not now raging throughout the country. Not one of these fat cattle imported into this country has shown any signs of foot and mouth disease. That is a very striking proof, even if none other were forthcoming, that there was no foot and mouth disease in Ireland.
The noble Lord also asked me about the means that we have of ascertaining the state of health of cattle in Ireland at the present time. I am afraid he must give

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me Notice of that question. As a matter of fact, I believe that at the present moment the officials who acted previously to the Treaty are still acting as regards that question.
The noble Lord then referred to the question of the Friesian cattle which have been imported from South Africa. They have been imported because many people in this country believe that these Friesian cattle are enormous milk yielders, and though, unfortunately, the producers of milk in this country are not in a very good position at present, and there is a rather heated controversy raging, at the same time I do not think it would be wise for the Ministry of Agriculture to prevent the introduction of a strain of good milking herds into this country. It was strongly urged upon us that the Friesian cattle in this country required a new strain of blood. Every care was taken that these Friesian cows and bulls brought from South Africa were of the very highest milking strains, and therefore likely to produce the greatest milk-yielding progeny. Full precautions have also been taken as regards quarantine. I think the cattle are placed in quarantine before they leave South Africa; they are a long time in quarantine on the ship; and they have another period of quarantine on reaching this country. I can assure the noble Lord that all our scientific advisers have stretched the point as far as they could possibly go in order to make it absolutely certain that these animals shall not bring cattle plague or other disease into this country.
On Question, Bill read 2a.
THE EARL OF ANCASTER: My Lords, this Bill has been certified by the Speaker as a Money Bill, and I hope that your Lordships will dispense with the Committee stage in the ordinary way. I move that the Bill be now committed.
Moved, That the Bill be committed.—(The Earl of Amager.)
On Question, Committee negatived.

ARMY AND AIR FORCE (ANNUAL) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (LORD GORELL): My Lords, when this Bill was in your Lordships'
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House last year the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading referred to the fact that the Bill comprised both the Army and the Air Force. At that time finality of decision with regard to a separate Air Force had not been reached, and it had been hoped that it might have been possible to confirm that separateness by having an annual Bill for the Army and a separate Bill for the Air Force. Owing to the amount of public business to be despatched, that has not been possible this year, but it may be hoped that it will be on a subsequent occasion.
I do not think it is necessary to go into the clauses at great length, though I can do so on the Committee stage if any of your Lordships desire. The Amendments are not of any great moment. There is an Amendment in Clauses 4 and 5 for the purpose of removing an anomaly under which, at the present moment, any officer whose promotion depends on his length of service does not suffer any real punishment when he comes before a Court Martial by the loss of his relative seniority. An Amendment to the Army Act is included to enable the Army Council to impose the penalty of forfeiture of service. Under Clauses 6 and 7, the first for the Army and the second for the Air Force, Amendments are included bringing the practice in the Army and in the Ail Force into line with that of the Admiralty with regard to the enlistment of boys under eighteen, in order to enable the twelve years' enlistment to run from the time they reach eighteen. Clause 8 is included to bring the law into line with the present practice. Under the present form of attestation there is power to retain a soldier in the colour service for an extra year if he is serving abroad at the time when he would otherwise have been transferred to the Reserve. This places it on a basis of law. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Gorell.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

GAMING BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD MUIR MACKENZIE: My Lords, this Bill is in exactly the same words as the Bill which passed your Lordships' House about four months ago. I think there was not a dissentient voice with

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regard to that Bill in the shape that it had reached when the Third Reading of the Bill was moved. Therefore, I do not think there is any occasion for me to say much about this Bill.
But there are two things which I should like to mention to the House. One is that a good many actions, I regret to say, have been brought as a result of the position that was disclosed by the Judgment of this House in the case of Sutters v. Briggs. One case was brought by the trustee in a bankruptcy case before a Judge of the Chancery Division. I have no doubt your Lordships have seen a report of the case in the newspapers. The application was one on the part of the trustee to recover the money that had been paid by the bankrupt in cheques, and the Judge said that he would not allow an officer of the Court to do that which no honest man would do. I think that after such a pronouncement as that from the High Court of Justice the case that I put before your Lordships last session seems stronger than ever, and I should think there was no one in the House who would not wish to put a stop to actions being brought in what the Judge called a dishonest manner.
The other thing I desired to say was this. Unfortunately, being taken by surprise on the Committee stage of the Bill last session, I consented to an alteration of the Bill which took away the power of stopping the bringing of any action under the section, and left the Bill in the position in which I have put the present Bill—namely, that the mischievous section under which these actions are brought would be removed from the Statute, and also that trustees, the Official Receiver and such persons would not be in danger of having proceedings brought against them because they did not proceed under that section. Strongly as I disagreed with the noble and learned Lord who persuaded me to consent to this Amendment, I did not feel that I could go back upon what I then consented to in bringing foward the Bill again, and therefore it is in a form in which I very much regret to find it. If any member of your Lordships' House would move an Amendment in Committee to restore the Bill to its original form I should be very glad. As far as I could judge the feeling of the House last session, the noble and learned Lord—as, indeed, the noble Marquess, Lord Crewe, said at the time—was probably alone in his objection to the Bill as it then stood. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Muir Mackenzie.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

PLACES OF WORSHIP (ENFRANCHISE MENT) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a(according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

PAWNBROKERS BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order) and passed.
[From Minutes of April 6.]
Lord Glenconner—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

YORKSHIRE ELECTRIC POWER BILL. [H.L.]
Committee to meet on Tuesday next.
BRADFORD CANAL (ABANDONMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.

TRAFFORD PARK BILL. [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
The LORD CHAIRMAN acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
Leicester Freemen.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

DARTMOUTH HARBOUR COMMISSIONERS (RECONSTITUTION) BILL. [H.L.]
Petition for Additional Provision; of Dartmouth Harbour Commissioners; together with proposed amendment annexed thereto; read, and referred to the Examiners.

CONSOLIDATION BILL COMMITTEE.
A message was ordered to be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint them therewith, and to request them to appoint Six Members of that House to be joined with the said Committee.
House adjourned at five minutes before five o'clock.