HL Deb 10 November 1921 vol 47 cc273-7

LORD SYDENHAM had given Notice to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether it has been decided that the barrage and the new canals in Sind are to be commenced simultaneously; and whether the Government of India and the Secretary of State have satisfied themselves that—

1. It is safe to disregard the opinion of the Committee of 1913 that these great works should be completed, not commenced, at the same time.

2. It is practicable in a sparsely populated country like Sind to complete works costing about 18 crores of rupees within a period of ten or twelve years.

3. The cost of these works and of their maintenance has not been greatly under-estimated, hawing regard to the immense rise of wages, etc., in India.

4. Grave unrest may not be caused in such a district as Larkana, where fine rice crops are now grown, by a rise of 60 per cent. in the rate of assessment.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, any great irrigation work in India involves questions, technical, economic, social, and political, which could not profitably be discussed in this Rouse. I therefore ask your Lordships' pardon if I detain you for three minutes for special reasons in regard to this great Sukkur project. I was familiar with the project in 1912, which I studied on the spot, not only as a Governor but as an engineer. I have not studied the new project which is now ender consideration, but I know enough about it to understand the great misgivings with which some very able engineers who know Sind feel about it. The expert Committee of 1913 was forced to the conclusion (these are their words) that "a barrage at Sukkur was necessary," which is perfectly sound; but then they laid down that "If the complete scheme is ever undertaken both canals and barrage should be simultaneously completed."

The reason is obvious. An enormously costly work like the barrage should be built as completely as possible, and should be finished at the moment when it becomes immediately reproductive. If these conditions are not fulfilled then the interest charges mount quickly to very serious proportions. The population of Sind has fallen off since 1911, and it is now under 3,500,000. I doubt very much whether labour can be found in sufficient amount to carry out these huge works in the time which is anticipated in the project. The present rice rate, including the second crop, is 5 rupees, but under the scheme there will be an increase of this rate for ten years to 8 rupees, and, after that, 9 rupees for another period of ten years. This great increase must be regarded as a terrible grievance by the cultivators, especially as they would not get a larger water supply than they have at present.

As regards the estimates, the project of 1912 was to cost 8 crores only. The present project is to cost 18 crores, and is to be completed in eleven years, and the Government of India, in their Dispatch dealing with these estimates and with the increase in rates, stated that they had provided for an increase of 20 per cent. above pre-war standard. And, as regards the head works generally, the Government of India said— We are, however, satisfied it is not necessary to provile for so large an increase as 30 per cent. I entirely distrust that estimate. The ruling rate in Bombay before the war was 4 annas; it is now 10 or 12 annas; in Sind it may be somewhat less, but I am convinced that these estimates require most careful revision.

I raise these Questions now because this great project, if it is economically carried out, will be of enormous benefit to Sind, and also to India as a whole, but if any mistake has been made, or if as I think, there has been some slight misunderstanding somewhere, the effect will be disastrous in the present rather critical financial position of India. All that I ask of the noble Earl is that these four Questions which I have put down might be looked into again, to see if there is not something in the remarks I have made.

THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE EARL OF LYTTON)

My Lords, I quite agree with my noble friend that a Question of this sort, involving highly technical considerations, cannot be discussed with any advantage in your Lordships' House. My noble friend as an engineer may be able to enter into- these details, but if he were to do so I certainly should not be able to follow him, and I have no intention of making anything like a detailed defence of this particular scheme. I understand that he is really concerned, and, I think, quite rightly concerned, to know that all the facts of the problem have been before the Government of India and have received full consideration before the decision to create this barrage was arrived at. On this point I think I can reassure my noble friend absolutely.

Not only has the whole matter—including the site of the barrage, also the relative dates of commencing the barrage and the canals, and all these matters—been exhaustively considered since 1913, but even in the last few months the arguments and proposals of Dr. Summers (who, as my noble friend knows, is one of the chief opponents of this scheme) have been considered by the Government of India and their technical advisers, with the result that the scheme proposed by Dr. Summers was unanimously rejected by the present advisers of the Government of India, and the scheme which it is proposed to carry out-has been unanimously reaffirmed and supported.

I have nothing really to tell my noble friend beyond what I was able to say in replying to the noble Lord, Lord Lamington, in August—namely, that so far as the technical side is concerned that matter is now decided, and the Secretary of State is not disposed either to reopen it or to seek any further advice. He could only be justified in doing so if lie were not satisfied with the competence of the engineers who advise the Government of India, or if there was any difference of opinion between them. Since he is satisfied that they are men of the highest engineering reputation and with the latest experience of irrigation works, and since they are unanimous in their opinion, having up till quite recently considered all the arguments that have been made, he is not prepared to reopen the matter.

On the purely engineering side of it, therefore, all these questions have been fully considered and a final decision has been arrived at. But, as I told Lord Lamington in August, there are aspects of the case which arc financial rather than technical and some which are partly financial and partly technical, and it is really mainly those particular aspects to which my noble friend to-day has referred. I agree with him that there are reasons for reconsidering the estimates upon which the whole scheme was based, and there are several financial aspects of the scheme upon which the Secretary of State was not satisfied which he has referred back to the Government of India and which are under the consideration of the Government of India at the present time. Therefore, so far as the financial aspect of the scheme is concerned, that has not yet received final approval, nor has the date for the commencement of the carrying out of the scheme been decided.

The Government of Bombay, as the noble Lord, I am sure, will readily understand, believing this to be a scheme fraught with the greatest possible benefits to Sind, are anxious to begin at the earliest possible moment. The only reason for delay is the necessity which he has pointed out of giving the most minute scrutiny not only to the technical aspects of the case, which have been decided, but to the financial provisions. Though I am not prepared to enter into any detailed discussion of this scheme in your Lordships' House, I think that persons who, like Lord Sydenham and Lord Lamington, are deeply interested in the proposals, are entitled to have a full explanation of what the case for the Government of India is, and though the matter is not of general interest, it is of great interest to the few who are acquainted with the project.

I propose, therefore, to place in the library of your Lordships' House the Despatch of the Government of India of December, 1920, and the Secretary of State's Despatch. of June 16, 1921, which will be available for any of your Lordships who care to refer to them. The Despatch of the Government of India will give the whole of the case for the erection of the barrage, and the Despatch of the Secretary of State will contain his reasons for agreeing with the Government of India that, in its technical aspects at any rate, the scheme should be approved. Those two documents will also be placed in the library of the House of Commons, mid I hope that any members of your Lordships' House who are sufficiently interested in the scheme as to require further information will find there all the information which they could desire.

LORD SYDENHAM

My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Earl for his answer to my Questions. I gather from it that practically all the four points which I have raised, being really of a financial character, will be looked into again. I am very much obliged to him for promising to lay information upon the library table.