HL Deb 04 May 1921 vol 45 cc143-50

Order of the Day read for the Message from the King to be taken into consideration.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON) had given Notice to move to resolve—

" That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, thanking His Majesty for His most gracious Message communicating to this House His Majesty's Declaration that a State of Emergency exists within the meaning of the Emergency Powers Act, 1920."

And also to move to resolve—

"That the Regulations made by His Majesty in Council under the Emergency Powers Act, 1920, by Order dated the 30th April, 1921, shall continue in force, subject, however, to the provisions of Section 2 (4) of the said Act."

The noble Earl said: Yesterday the noble Earl, the First Commissioner of Works, gave Notice in my name of two Motions which it would be my duty to make to-day, and the terms of those Motions appear in their place upon the Order Paper. I thought that, immersed though I am in other subjects which do not leave much leisure to consider matters of domestic concern, however important they may be—and the importance of this internal issue no one can doubt—it would yet be disrespectful on my part if I did not come down here in order to move these Motions that stand in my name.

What your Lordships are asked to do is practically to continue in operation, with certain modifications and alterations, the Regulations which you saw fit to pass some weeks ago. The Regulations in their present form are practically the same as those to which you gave assent on April 5 last, but there have been a few additions intended to give the Government Departments powers to make Orders in respect to certain matters should the necessity for doing so arise. I may now say, however, as I said on the previous occasion, that it is hoped that it will not prove to be necessary to make extensive use of those powers. The matters in question to which I refer are these: Further restriction of trans services; restrictions on the use of excursion and other steamers and vessels; further restriction of lights; extension of summer time by an additional hour; and billeting. Reference to these will be found in the new Emergency Regulations as printed in the form which I hold in my hand.

The first four of these restrictions are directed, as is obvious, towards the economy of coal and fuel; and in using them, if they have to be used, the Government will, of course, bear in mind the convenience of the public, so far as this is possible consistently with the fuel resources of the country, as the latter may exist from time to time. The provision as to billeting has been asked for by the War Office, and your Lordships may like a word of explanation about it. It is not intended that the powers relating to billeting should be used unless absolutely necessary. It will be recognised, if particular localities are to be guarded and protected, that the troops stationed in such localities must have some accommodation, which must always be of a suitable nature and location for the carrying out of the duties which, in any particular case, they may be called upon to undertake. The first of the Emergency Regulations, as at present framed, gives the War Office power to take possession of any land, building, works or property. The exercise of these powers—which it is understood carries with it the right to take possession of any building, or requisition it—would, it is thought, cause far more dislocation and discontent to the owners of such build- ing than would the requiring of such owners, while continuing to occupy their property, to accommodate troops billeted on them during the emergency. One of the main objects of this new provision, which evil be used as sparingly as the exigencies of the sit nation permit, is to enable, troops employed on protective services, in the interests of the community, to be accommodated on premises with as little disturbance as possible to the civil population.

The only other noteworthy Amendment is Regulation 3 (8) which gives the Army Council concurrent powers with the Ministry of Transport under Regulation 3 for the purpose of providing transport for His Majesty's Forces. The effect of this Amendment is to avoid the necessity, which might be inconvenient in the case of urgency, of making a special arrangement with the Ministry of Transport, under Regulation 21. That is, J think, all that I need say in explanation of the particular form in which the Regulations have now been framed.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

Can the noble Earl say whether it is intended to use the power to lengthen summer time, or is that only to be kept in reserve in case it is wanted?

EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON

I should like to consult the Department before I give a definite answer to that question. As regards the general situation, in the earlier phases of this unhappy crisis I came down here and made a statement almost from day to day. The last occasion on which, in my absence, this was done by my noble friend, Lord Crawford, who was acting for me, was on April 25—at the beginning of last week. On that occasion he alluded to the offer which had just been submitted by the mine owners, and under which, over a temporary period of three months, reductions in wages in each area should be a uniform amount per shift for all workers, and should in no case exceed such an amount as might be fixed by the Government, the owners, and the men, for each of the three months respectively, while in any district in which it was necessary for the Government to assist in the payment of wages the owners in the aggregate should forego all profits.

That arrangement had only just been put forward when my noble friend spoke. Negotiations upon it continued between I all the parties concerned for three or four days, and, to the infinite distress of all those concerned, they the ultimately broke down on April 28. As to the part which the Government played in the matter— I speak not so much of the Government's handling of the negotiations as of the actual contribution that they proposed to the solution of this difficult question—I should like to add these words. They offered a sum of £10,000,000 to assist in the payment of wages until the end of August, on condition that an agreement was reached for the regulation of wages, for a reasonable period thereafter. This offer was published in the Press, and is familiar to your Lordships. Further, they under' took that during May and June in no case should wages be reduced by more than 3s. per day and 3s. 6d. per day respectively, and though they remained opposed, for reasons which have often been stated here, to any pooling arrangement, the object of which should be that profitable pits should subsidise unprofitable pits, it was definitely stated by them that there was no objection to the institution of a system whereby the wages earned in the industry could be more equally divided as between district and district.

The offer in question also contemplated the institution of a National Board to fix the principles on which wages should be determined in the districts, and to act as a Court of Appeal from the districts on wages questions. Unhappily, however, on April 28, the date that I have named, the delegates' conference passed the following resolution— That this Conference rejects the Government's proposals as they do not concede the fundamental principles of a National Wages Board and a national pool, for which we stand. It is clear, therefore, that the stoppage continues because recognition has not been granted to the fundamental principle for which the miners have throughout contended—namely, that there should be some national arrangement whereby the weaker pits should be subsidised by the stronger. The negotiations are, therefore, I grieve to say, at any rate in London, at an end for the time being, and the matter has now been referred to the districts where it is being threshed out between the miners and their representative organisations.

What may happen I am not at all in a position to say. I was reading the latest reports that reached the Government this morning, and while I observed in them symptoms in some places of a desire to return to work on the part of the men, and evidence in a good many quarters that the proposals of the Government, which I have summarised to the House, are regarded as not unreasonable, yet I should not like to build upon those symptoms, scattered as they arc, too confident an inference as to the possibilities of a satisfactory solution. I am afraid that I cannot truthfully say to your Lordships that I see at this moment any immediate prospect of a termination to this disastrous dispute.

As to the attitude of the Government, the proposals that I mentioned just now indicate, I think, a sufficient desire on our part to make what contribution we can to a pacific and equitable settlement, but, for the reasons which have been repeatedly stated by me and others in this House, and which, I think, have been acquiesced in broadly speaking by the general sentiment of your Lordships, it is impossible for the Government to recede from the position they have taken up on the question of the national pool of profits, since they remain convinced, after the most careful consideration and reconsideration, that the establishment of any such pool would be fatal to the success of any system of private ownership, and would require legislation winch they are not prepared to propose and which they do not think that either. House of Parliament would be prepared to pass. I am sorry that I cannot give your Lordships a more sanguine account of the situation or a more hopeful estimate as to the immediate future.

Moved, That the Message from His Majesty be now considered.—(Earl Curzon of Kedleston.)

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE

My Lords, the announcement made in the latter part of the noble Earl's speech, that he is not able to see any daylight through the gloomy prospect of this industrial dispute, will not surprise your Lordships, because we had gathered so much so far as we had been able to follow its course in the daily Press and from private sources. It stands to reason, of course, that so long as the two parties stand to the assertion they have made—the one, His Majesty's Government., explaining that they will not admit the existence of a national pool for profits; and the other, the miners, saying that they will not consent to consider the question of wages apart from the institution of such a pool—it is quite clear that nothing can be done, that the deadlock is absolute. That is, of course, a position which cannot continue indefinitely. The time will come when further negotiations will have to be instituted.

I may take it, I am pretty sure, that they are not likely to be instituted by any retrocession on the part of His Majesty's Government from the position they have taken up, that they are not prepared to consider this question of a national pool. But there may be ways of getting round the difficulty by dividing the consideration of the different questions and obtaining some agreement to consider them separately. I imagine that if the question of wages could be determined with a fair prospect of its not being merely a settlement for a few weeks or months, but bearing promise for the future, His Majesty's Government might not refuse some further impartial inquiry into the whole economics of the coal trade in the future. Whether that is likely to be brought about it is impossible to say, but at present we have to admit that His Majesty's Government adhere to the view that a national pool of profits is impossible, and, so far as my personal opinion is concerned, I confess I entirely agree with them, and equally, for the time being, the miners will not deal with the wages question apart from that.

I wish to make one observation with regard to the Emergency Regulations to which the noble Earl alluded in the first part of his speech. I suppose it may be assumed that the extra billeting powers which His Majesty's Government have asked will be used with great caution and discretion.

EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON

And very likely not at all.

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE

And very likely not at all. I am sure that His Majesty's Government will realise that a free and indiscriminate use of them would be unpalatable to a. great many persons. The only other point is the matter which was mentioned in a question by my noble friend, Lord Salisbury—that of the application of an extra hour of summer time. The noble Earl was not in a position at the moment to reply to the noble Marquess's question, but I should like to call his attention to this. The noble Earl knows, and at any rate there are two noble Lords here (the First Lord of the Admiralty and Lord Ernie on the second bench) who know very well, that even as summer time now exists it is a very unpalatable institution to farmers as a whole, and the addition of an extra hour to summer time would cause something like consternation so far as that part of the community is concerned. I am not at all supposing that it might not have to be done in the common interest and for the purpose of economy of fuel, and I have no doubt a very large number of persons, including probably most of us, would be in no way inconvenienced by it. I merely wish to remind the noble Earl that there is that by tic, means unimportant body of opinion which would be bitterly hurt by the addition of another hour to the present system.

LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE

My Lords, may I point out, with reference to what has been said, that the question of summer time is even more important in Ireland? There, already, we have been given English time, which is twenty-five minutes in advance of the time in Southern Ireland, and forty-five minutes in advance in the West of Ireland. If it is further advanced it would mean that the time in the West of Ireland would be nearly three hours head, and the result would he very much worse for Ireland. Perhaps the noble Earl will bear that in mind if any changes are to be made.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON

My Lords, it is now my duty to move to resolve—

"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, thanking His Majesty for His most gracious Message communicating to this House His Majesty's Declaration that a State of Emergency exists within the meaning of the Emergency Powers Act, 1920."

On Question, Motion agreed to nemine dissentiente, and Address ordered to be presented to His Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON

My Lords. I beg to make the other Motion standing in my name which reads as follows—

"That the Regulations made by His Majesty in Council under the Emergency Powers Act, 1920, by Order dated the 30th April, 1921, shall continue in force, subject., however, to the provisions of Section 2 (1) of the said Act."

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.