§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I rise to put a Question to the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack of which I have given hint private notice—namely, whether the Government will inform the House of the reasons which have led them to order the release of the members of the Southern Irish Parliament who have been in prison in connection with crime and rebellion in Ireland. Let me say, in the first place, that on the last occasion on which I put a Question to the noble and learned Viscount he asked me who "we" were, when I addressed your Lordships. Tit this case, there is no question of "we" I speak entirely for myself. Beyond that, I have hardly anything to say in putting the Question. It is possible that the noble and learned Viscount may be glad to have the opportunity of giving some account to your Lordships of the reasons which have led the Government to this decision, because it is a grave decision.
These gentlemen have been in prison for diverse breaches, or alleged breaches, of the law. I do not know how many of them are actually convicted, but some of them have been convicted. Certainly, in one case—the case of a man who is a member of the Southern Irish Parliament—he has been convicted of the offence of murder—at any rate, in so far as the law is concerned it was murder—and he has been released. Unfortunately, at first the release was refused, and then it was granted—I say "unfortunately," because anything like the appearance of yielding to pressure in a. matter of this kind is to be deprecated. But I should specially like to ask the Government whether this release is in connection with the terms that have been offered to Mr. de Valera by the Govern- 357 ment.I think it is very important that your Lordships should know the reason for the releases, and how far they are made in connection with the negotiations that are taking place.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT BIRKENHEAD)My Lords, Lord Salisbury was good enough, when lie gave me private notice of his intention to ask this Question, to inform me, as he has informed your Lordships, that he was asking it on his own behalf. The noble Marquess had on the Paper two clays ago Notice of a Resolution which would have challenged the whole of the policy of the Government upon a matter which he has rightly described as extremely difficult.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYIt is still down.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORI was under the impression that it had been withdrawn. It has not, however, at any rate so far, been moved, and I think that no definite day has been appointed by the noble Marquess for its discussion. In the view of the Government, Lord Salisbury rendered a public service by not moving that Motion on the date on which it stood for discussion, because whether the course adopted by the Government be Fight, as we believe, or whether it be wrong and disastrous, as the noble Marquess believes, ibis at least is evident: that it is a course to which we are committed, and the discussion at on.' time invited by Lord Salisbury would have involved, in my judgment, disadvantages on both sides. I, for one, am extremely glad that it has not so far arisen for discussion.
Your Lordships will not make the mistake of supposing that my satisfaction in that circumstance is based upon any unwillingness to justify the course on which the Government have decided. We may be right or we may be wrong in that respect, but we are satisfied that if and when a discussion is practicable we shall be able to satisfy both Parliament and the country that in circumstances of unexampled anxiety we have chosen the right course; but it is evident that I ought not to be expected, in answer to the more. particular Question which Lord Salisbury has put, to me to-night, to deal with that general discussion which would have been proper and, indeed, necessary had the Motion required decision in this House. 358 I avoid, as far as I can, the risk of involving myself in so general a discussion, and I merely deal with the situation at large in so far as it may be necessary in order to answer the particular Question which Lord Salisbury has addressed to the Government.
Some weeks ago, the position in Ireland was, however grave, an intelligible one. I have myself attempted to make it plain. It was a situation, rightly analysed, in which the principal difficulties were military ones. The Government, employing all the available resources of the military and of the police, were engaged in trying to compass the destruction of the forces which were arrayed against the Crown in circumstances very familiar to this House. The progress of the coercive attempts made by the Government had, as it is well known, proved in a high degree disappointing. The expectations formed, very often upon military or police advice, by the Chief Secretary and referred to by him in another place, bad been more than once disappointed, and it is broadly true to say that some weeks ago the position was as follows. The military effort had not; I have already indicated, succeeded, and yet there seemed not the slightest prospect of any solution of our difficulties except by a further and intensified military effort.
In those circumstances I was pressed in this House, in the course of a debate initiated by the Earl of Donoughmore, to state on behalf of the Government, and so that all Irish people might appreciate it, what, were the concessions that the Government were prim red to make. After most careful consideration with my colleagues, and in a speech which was curiously, almost unintelligibly, misunderstood in some quarters, I made it quite plain that it was not the policy of the Government in any circumstances to indicate the concessions which it was prepared to make, unless and until there were persons of obvious authority in Ireland who were prepared to undertake the responsibility for discussions with the representatives of the Government. No other sentence of my speech lent any colour to the attitude of the Government as explained by me other than the colour which I have at this moment explained.
Almost simultaneously, a day or two later, it fell to His Majesty the King to pay a visit to Belfast in circumstances well 359 within the memory of the House. The Government, accepting the responsibility which correct constitutional doctrine imposed upon them, were well aware of the sentences in the gracious Speech. which are also within the memory of the House, in which a hope was, expressed that even at this, as it seemed, eleventh hour, some brighter prospects might emerge amid the prevalent destruction and bloodshed. The response to that speech was a very remarkable one. I do not propose to describe it with further particularity than to say that it soon became evident that the situation had altered in a sense which everyone will admit to be important, and which the Government believed to be vital. It had been altered in this sense: that it was no longer possible for us to maintain that there were not in Ireland men of the highest consequence and importance who were will to treat with the Government. The moment that conviction was accepted, as it was accepted by us, we had to face a very definite decision, and if I understand the attitude of Lord Salisbury, he would at that moment quite definitely have refused to enter into any negotiations at all in the existing circumstances with any man who was responsible for the methods by which the Irish resistance to authority had been expressed in the past few months and years.
That was, and that remains, the ground of difference between Lord Salisbury and the Government. What would have been the position had we, in the circumstances described by me, accepted the view of Lord Salisbury and acted upon it, let me in a very few sentences make undeniably plain. We should have been committed for a period, indefinite in duration, to the continuance of our military and police efforts. But this also should be made plain. We should have been committed to a campaign upon a far larger scale, involving the employment of much greater numbers of men than. I believe historically, have ever been employed in Ireland in the repression of rebellion. It may, unhappily, still prove to be the case that these desperate necessities await us. Certainly, I am not anxious to exaggerate them, but we should have had to ask for and obtain the sanction of the people of this country, because without their sympathy and support so great and costly an effort could not indefinitely be sustained.
I am not one of the number who have said—I have always alleged, and believed 360 the contrary—that it would have proved impossible for us to put down this rebellion. I am certain, and, indeed, it is obvious, that the strength of this country, if unsparingly exerted with the necessary vigour and sacrifice, could have put an end to the rebellion. But within what period of time? What military adviser was bold enough to inform us with the least approach to precision of the time that would be required the resources in own that would be necessary, and the expenditure in money that would be involved? All these questions may still prove to be necessary, and if they are necessary they will be confronted. But while these efforts are being made, what would have continued before our eyes in Ireland? The butchery of the police and the forces of the Crown would have continued. Day after day that toll would have grown, and side by side the measures taken upon our side, just and necessary measures as they are, would have added to the long legacy of bitterness and unhappiness which afflicts that stricken country. Your Lordships will remember the moving emphasis with which Lord Desart told us that no one is happy in Ireland to-day.
At that moment, and in those circumstances, we reached the decision that we should be doing a wrong and indefensible thing if we refused to hold any negotiations, on grounds which are apparent to me as well as to Lord Salisbury, with men who had been instrumental in the nature of the campaign, but of whom it became known that they were prepared to enter into negotiations with us. I am bold enough to believe that if it had been possible or necessary to submit to the judgment of this House, to the judgment of another place, or to the judgment of the constituencies, the question as to whether we should utterly refuse to negotiate in the circumstances I have explained, the answer from Parliament and from the constituencies would have been overwhelmingly in the direction of attempting the negotiations to which I have referred. Let me make this perfectly plain. Whether we are challenged in this House, or in another place, we shall be prepared at all times to defend the course we have adopted.
I shall venture to found a brief further statement I have to make on the assumption that in the decision we then took we should have had the support of all overwhelming number of your Lordships. 361 I am led more confidently to form this assurance by the statement, made very candidly by the noble Marquess himself, who told us that he asks the Question and advances the criticisms on his own solitary behalf.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI have advanced no criticism.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORI do not think that interruption is entirely worthy of the noble Marquess.
THE MARQUESS OF SALSBURYThe noble and learned Viscount will forgive me. I put a Very simple Question to the Lord Chancellor, and in accordance with the Orders of your Lordships' House, I did not make any speech in connection with it; and I did not submit any arguments. I do not complain of the Lord Chancellor taking Otis opportunity to make a statement on the Government's because I think such a statement has been much too long delayed, but I should have preferred to have stated my own arguments myself rather than to have heard them stated by the Lord Chancellor.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORThe statement to which the noble Marquess took exception was that he had made a criticism of the Government. To that I venture to reply that it is a verbal point and nothing more. Every one in your Lordships House knows, and the noble Marquess knows perfectly well, that in asking this Question as to why members of the Irish Assembly have been released, he meant to convey the noble Marquess will not deny it that his attitude is a critical What other reason could there be for asking a Question, unless it meant to indicate a criticism on the part of the noble Marquess? The point taken by him is a verbal one entirely.
A decision having been taken, that course, were the Government to adopt lien again it would scent to me to be perfectly plain that when once the decision had been taken every to step equally was necessary without the taking of which the negotiations, to which as we think we were rightly committed, could not take place. How was it possible for us to negotiate with anyone in Ireland except with those who represented the Southern part of Ireland measured by the only test of that representation which was available to us, or which, 362 Indeed, existed at all? It was for that reason that we decided, and we claim we were right, I hat the members of the Southern Assembly should be released in order that discussions should take place between representatives of the British Government and the men who derive their strength from the only body of representatives who can claim any constitutional contact with the electors of Southern Ireland. The noble Marquess asked me a more specific question in relation to the case of one or two men, as to whether or not it was part of the terms between the British Government and Mr. de Valera that these men should be for the purpose of these discussions.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYWhat I want to ask is whether the release took place in order tot facilitate the discussion of the terms: whether the terms are going to be submitted to I la sc gentlemen?
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORUndoubtedly the release took place in order to facilitate the discussion of these matters, in order that. If there be ultimately an overwhelming Sanction on the part of the Irish for the proposals which have boon addressed to them by the British Government the authority of those who spoke on behalf of Ireland might not be challenged. I myself do not know of any other means by which it would have been possible to have put forward upon an unimpeachably representative ground the conclusion reached by Southern Ireland. Lord Salisbury said that a statement of Government policy was overdue and that although he was glad that a short general statement had been attempted by too, it was not- precisely invited by his Question. I take a different view. It is quite impossible for ally member of this House, or for Ito country generally, to judge of the wisdom prudence and defensibility of that which the Government have done without going back to the moment at which the first and critical decision was taken—the decision that there should be discussions at. all. If it be decided as I am sure it will hereafter be decided, that we were right in reaching that conclusion at that time, I find it: impossible to believe that it can be disputed that, the only measures by which such discussions might be made.authoritative should have been taken.
I have only this to add, as I am dealing with this subject in it somewhat general 363 way. If and when it becomes possible, as it assuredly will, in one contingency or the other, I hope within a reasonable period to make known the nature of the proposals which the Government have made to Parliament and the country. I, for one, am persuaded that it will 1w agreed by the overwhelming number of those who bring well-intentioned and reasonable judgment to bear upon them, that, while they have gone as far as it is possible to go in the direction of proving, the genuineness of the desire of this country for a real and permanent reconciliation, they have inflexibly adhered to those points which the vital interests and the safety of these islands require.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I have no desire whatever, as I said in (I am afraid) my too frequent interruptions, to quarrel in ally sense with the course which the noble and learned Viscount has taken. He always treats me with very great courtesy, and I have no desire to offer any criticism of his taking this course. I shall weigh very carefully what he said at the beginning of his remarks, before I put the Motion which still stands in my name upon the Paper or rather before I advance it to a definite date. I should like to say this, in putting a further question to the noble and learned Viscount. He replied to me, in effect, that the terms which the Government have offered to Mr. de Valera will be submitted to the representatives of the Southern Irish people, including these gentlemen who have been released; that is to say, they will be submitted to the Irish House of Commons. When will the same terms he submitted to the British Parliament? Is it to be said that the Irish House of Commons is to know the terms while the British House of Commons and the British House of Lords are not to know the terms?
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORThe noble Marquess will recall that when I was last questioned upon this matter, I attempted to make it plain that we had put forward to the representatives of Southern Ireland proposals which, in our judgment, were a suitable basis for negotiations, and, it Wright be, for settlement. The Government who had put forward those proposals was naturally completely cognisant, both of their tenour and of their scope. No one who was representing Southern Ireland, with the exception of the almost solitary 364 Negotiator who bad taken part in the discussions, was cognisant of the nature of the proposals; and in order to discover whether or not those proposals were thought suitable for further discussion, likely to prove the basis of a settlement, authority was given to Mr. de Valera to place them before the Assembly whose sanction, in our judgment, was a condition precedent even to their further consideration by us. Lord Salisbury asked me when an opportunity will be given to Parliament to consider those terms. I would say, very respectfully, that it is not so much the date that in this matter is of the first consequence, as that these proposals shall be submitted to Parliament ill circumstances which will give Parliament complete power Of imposing their prohibition if the proposals, when made, do not recommend themselves.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYWill it be before the Prorogation?
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORI should think it extremely improbable, Further than that I cannot go. It is improbable, not, because, if the Irish representatives return a reply, favourable or unfavourable, there will be one moment's delay. I assure Lord Salisbury that if the Government are informed, either that the representatives of Ireland consider these proposals suitable as a basis for discussion or that they consider them unsuitable, not only that fact, but these proposals, will be at once communicated to Parliament. If, on the other hand, in a matter which is entirely beyond the control of the Government, these proposals should not have been so submitted, it will, of course, if there is an assent to the proposals, and if the later discussions which were always contemplated prove fruitful, lie utterly impossible to give effect to them until both Houses of Parliament have had the full power of exercising their indisputable and undisputed right of veto.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, it is a very grave statement which has been made by the noble and learned Viscount. In the opinion of the Government, it is not likely that these terms, which are to be known and canvassed in all parts of Ireland are to be submitted to the British Parliament before the Prorogation. I do not say what course I shall pursue, but the noble Viscount must not 365 complain if we find it necessary to provoke a discussion in consequence of the statement which he has just made.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORI rise, net to continue the discussion, but because I wish to make it most plain by every means in my power if Lord Salisbury deems in Ins understanding of the matter that the public interest warrants old justifies such a discussion, he will find the Government most ready to meet him in reply to that charge.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYMy Lords, I should like to ask what the noble Marquess means by known and canvassed in all parts of Ireland ''? That is a very serious statement to make.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI think, perhaps, that was rather an inaccurate statement. I should have said "known and canvassed by the elected representatives in every part of Ireland"; that is, by those who correspond to the British House of Commons amid House of Lords.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWEMy Lords, I do not wish to engage in any long discussion, but as I find myself a Warm supporter of His Majesty's Government in their present attitude towards 'Ireland, I think.I ought perhaps, to say a word before this informal discussion closes. To go back for a moment to the speech to which the noble and learned Viscount alluded, the speech that, he made from the Woolsack a week ago, and for he made, not an apology, but anapologiain the strict sense, it may be, as the noble and learned Viscount said, that the terms of that speech created a degree of apprehension which was not altogether justified. But I think the complaint against the noble and learned Viscount is this, that he, being perhaps the greatest adept in your Lordships' House in creating an atmosphere, created on that afternoon an atmosphere of depression and alarm among many well-wishers of Ireland which was only dissipated by the terms of the gracious Speech made in Ireland, which then, one must assume, were within the knowledge of the noble and learned Viscount. For he did succeed in producing an entirely different impression in the minds of the public front that which was afterwards produced by the gracious Speech made in 366 Ireland. There is no need to pursue that question further, and I do not desire to do so.
As regards the general terms of the Question put by the noble Marquess behind me, I hope that lie will consider very carefully his intention of pursuing the Notice, which he has placed on the Paper for a general discussion on the present policy in Ireland: that is to say, that he will not force such a discussion unless the Government are agreed that it will be for the general advantage that such a discussion should take place. In these intensely critical times we who are outside the knowledge of what is passing in Ireland, and there ale very few who have it—even the members of His Majesty's Government have not got it in its completeness—it is impossible to walk too warily, and it will be necessary to wait on events, and see what can lie announced, either in Ireland Or here, before deciding upon any public discussion of the policy of the Government.
On the particular question of the release of all the members of Dan Eireann, including one who had been convicted of murder, I assume, without any special knowledge, that the releases, including the release of that particular man, were based on the fact that although he had been obviously engaged in guerilla warfare, and had there taken life in circumstances which I imagine would make guilty of murder, very Irishman belonging to the so-called Republican Army who had fired a fatal shot, His Majesty's Government consider that lie was one of a large number of men who technically might equally have been convicted, and that they did not consider themselves placed ill the particular difficulty in which they would, undoubtedly, have been placed if one of those men had been found guilty of cold-blooded assassination. But neither do I wish to pursue that particular topic further.
As regards the question to which the noble Marquess last drew attention, that of the time when Parliament will be placed in possession of these details, I cannot help thinking that what the noble and learned Viscount has just said is some justification for the action which I took the other day, in endeavouring to keep the session alive until such period as it might be necessary to call Parliament together, without going through tin whole procedure of starting a new session, in order to discuss these matters. It will be remembered that it 367 that time it was said. I think, in another place, if not categorically at any rate with a good deal of assurance, that these announcements were certain to be made before Parliament rose. Now the noble and learned Viscount tells us that they almost. certainly will not, and I cannot help agreeing with the noble Marquess behind me, that there may be smile danger in allowing these terms to become, as you may be sure they will become, subjects of public discussion in the Press and elsewhere, because I can scarcely believe that if a large number of Southern Irishmen are acquainted with the terms they will regard them as absolutely confidential, and not discuss them with their friends.
The result will be that they will become more or less public property; and I cannot help thinking there is some risk that the kind of discussion which will take place, both in the Irish and the British Press, and possibly also on excited platforms, may tend to endanger what we all so keenly desire, the prospects of a complete settlement. I wish, therefore, that His Majesty's Government had thought fit to sanction arrangements whereby Parliament could have been promptly called together to consider these matters, without starting, already, before this summer is over, the session of 1922.
§ LORD KILLANINMay I ask whether it is the fact that the Southern Parliament is meeting shortly for the express purpose of considering these proposals and that therefore a number of- members of that Parliament are being released for the express purpose of taking part in the discussion of these proposals; and whether the proposals will be divulged to the members of that Parliament, but will not be divulged to this Parliament?
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORIt is difficult for me to answer the noble Lord, for the reason anticipated by Lord Crewe. Certainly, I myself am very imperfectly in the confidence of those who are representing Ireland as to what precisely their intentions are, as to whether the meeting on Tuesday will come to a decision, whether their discussion will be in public or not, and whether there will be an understanding or not. If matters are discussed in public with the result that these proposals become known, of course they must be divulged at, once, and there is no reason which would induce the Government to hold them back 368 a day if they were Hot convinced that their premature disclosure would do harm. If, however, they are made known there, of course they must be made known in this country, in one form or other, and I will, of course, acquaint my colleagues of what has been said by Lord Crewe, following Lord Salisbury, as to the mischief which might ensue if these proposals were made known in Ireland and were not known here.