§ Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
§ Moved, That the Bill be now read 3ª.—(Viscount Peel.)
§ On Question, Bill read 3ª.
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THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY had on the Paper an Amendment, after Clause 2, to insert the following new clause—
3. A list of the goods prohibited under this Act shall from time to time be laid on the Table of each House of Parliament for thirty days during the sitting of the House. If within this period an Address to the Crown shall be passed by either House praying that any article shall be removed from the list, such article shall thereupon cease to be prohibited.
§ The noble Marquess said: Your Lordships will recollect that in the course of the discussion in Committee yesterday a good deal of conversation took place as to the method under which this Bill should be enforced. I spoke from the point of view of a supporter of the Bill, but it was very difficult to gather from the statements then made how it was proposed to work the Bill. It transpired in the course of the discussion that there was no list in existence of the articles which would be prohibited under the operation of the Bill, and that His Majesty's subjects had no means of knowing what were and what were not included amongst the prohibited articles.
§ It appeared that all that was known was that goods included in the categories of synthetic organic dyestuffs, colours, and colouring matters, and of organic intermediate products used in the manufacture of any dyestuffs, colours, or colouring matters would be prohibited. From the moment that this Bill, if it is passed in its present form, obtains the Royal Assent all those things would be ipso facto prohibited—that is to say, it would be a breach of the law to introduce any of them. When some of your Lordships put the question to the Government, "What are these matters that are prohibited?" the Government 888 said they had not the slightest conception beyond the definition which stood in the clause; so that none of His Majesty's subjects will know in the least what is and what is not prohibited until their goods are confiscated or at any rate temporarily taken possession of. Then it is open to them to proceed in the Courts to show that the Government have acted ultra vires. That is the only remedy which the subject has, and the only power of ascertaining what is prohibited.
§ Efforts were made by certain of your Lordships to arrive at a definition, or rather to arrrive at a limitation, of the list. We thought—and rightly thought, I think—that this was a very difficult thing to do. The Government view was that it might produce very great difficulty in working the Bill, and for my own part I did not support those efforts; in fact, I voted against them. Still the difficulty remains. I therefore ventured to suggest to the Government—and I have now put it upon the Paper—that a clause should be introduced into the Bill providing that a list of the prohibited articles should be laid before Parliament and should be open to question there. It seemed to me to be a procedure that was consecrated by innumerable precedents, and that it would not interfere in the least with the operation of the Bill if the clause were properly drafted.
§ As I have drafted the clause, the Act comes into operation to the full extent the moment the Royal Assent is given and no kind of limitation or interference with the full discretion of the Government in the matter is involved; but when they have decided what is prohibited and what is not they should then lay the list, upon the Table of both Houses of Parliament so that the public should know. Then, of course, if either House disagreed with an article that was included the will of Parliament should prevail and that particular article should cease to be prohibited. That is a perfectly clear course of procedure. If the Government desire to alter the drafting of my poor effort I shall at once fall in with their views, but that is a small matter.
§ This Bill is a new departure on a very difficult subject. It deals with the policy of the Government to protect "key" industries. I do not pretend that the circumstances attaching to this particular Bill are altogether satisfactory, but we and the majority of your Lordships thought that the Government deserved to be supported 889 in their efforts to carry out the policy which they themselves had announced with the general assent of the country and of your Lordships' House. Therefore in this first example of the fulfilment of that policy your Lordships have supported the Government. But let the Government reflect that they are setting a precedent of a very grave character. Dyestuffs are not going to be the only key industry. I hope that the list of these key industries will be a relatively small one—all of us do; and I presume that in every case the Bill will be drawn in the same form. So that what will be enacted is that a perfectly unknown number of things will be prohibited which go to the manufacture in any form, either directly or indirectly, of the articles which it is sought to protect. That will embrace, when you come to deal with all key industries, an enormous variety of subjects—in fact, no one will know what is prohibited and what is not. The whole of industry will be conducted under the menace of a possible interference by a Government official with the ordinary practices of trade, without any knowledge beforehand as to what is going to be prohibited and what is not.
§ That is a most tremendous departure, which I am sure your Lordships would not desire to sanction. Therefore I think it is a very moderate course that we should ask that at any rate the House of Commons and the House of Lords should be made acquainted with the special articles which under the powers that the Government are seeking, it is proposed to prohibit, and that the House of Commons and the House of Lords should in their discretion have some control over those articles by being invested with the power of striking out of the list any particular article. That appears to be an extremely moderate proposal, and I earnestly urge upon the Government not to spoil their policy of protecting key industries by introducing a procedure which will undoubtedly be represented out of doors as highly tyrannical, and will prejudice to a very great extent the ultimate success of the policy. When they come to consider the precedent they are setting they will do well, I am quite sure, to approach the matter with caution. I understand from this morning's papers that the Government intend to deal with the bigger subjects of key industries next session, so that the opportunity is still open to them.
890
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Amendment moved—
Clause 2, page 2, line 24, at end insert the said new clause.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (VISCOUNT MILNER)My Lords, I am going to leave the noble Viscount in charge of the Bill to reply to the special point which has been raised by the noble Marquess, and I hope we may be able to satisfy him with regard to it. But the noble Marquess has made a speech which I think needs a word of reply on more general grounds. It was a speech calculated to cause alarm, which I think is perfectly needless, and possibly to prejudice a policy which I believe finds favour with him and with most of your Lordships in principle.
This is, as he says, a new departure in so far as it is an attempt to help the building up of a key industry in this country. All interferences with trade are open to great objection; they are also open to being, by misrepresentation, made to appear very much more serious and more difficult than they are. It is always assumed if there is any restriction on trade it is some ignorant, unsympathetic Government official who is going to exercise it. I want to call your Lordships' attention to this—not for the credit of the Government, but for the sake of a policy and in the interests of the country—that in this Bill every possible precaution has been taken that any interference with trade should be made, not only with the knowledge of, but by the very people interested in the trade. That is the very key of our whole policy. We do not believe that this measure is looked upon with any alarm by the people who are principally interested in the matter, whether they are the dye users or the dye producers. They know perfectly well that the Government would be very helpless in a matter of this kind unless it had the aid and the support of the people actually interested. And the very key note of our policy, and the very basis of the whole thing is the provision which is made that all important acts under this Bill should be carried out by a Committee which is representative of the interested parties, and in which the Government is represented merely to hold the balance fairly, and also in order to be able to put the most expert chemists we can find on to that Committee.
I do not believe that the terrible things with which we are always threatened are going to happen. I do not know myself, 891 but from the best opinion that I can obtain it seems very likely that this Bill will, with the good will of the interested parties, work very smoothly. And surely there is nothing that Parliament can do to protect people in this case unless the people themselves appeal to Parliament for their support. I can assure the noble Marquess that when he gets his list it will not be of the slightest use to anybody who is not in the trade. Nor is this prohibition going to affect any ordinary mortal at all.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYThe noble Viscount will understand that there are a great number of these things included in the definition which are not only used for dyestuffs but for all sorts of other purposes.
§ VISCOUNT MILNERI quite understand.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI am not thinking merely of the difficulty of the dyestuffs people, but of other people.
§ VISCOUNT MILNERI quite understand that. The noble Viscount (Lord Peel) will explain more particularly. My point is that we cannot do anything: our having before us the list of a hundred things, not one of which is intelligible to any of us, will not enable us to protect anybody. The object of laying them before this House is that the House may strike out some of them. If you saw the list you would see how ridiculous that proposal was. This is a highly specialised trade; it is conducted through a limited number of channels. The people who are bringing these things into the country know perfectly well when a thing comes within the category of the Bill and when it does not, and if there is any doubt about a particular article there will be no difficulty for them to find out. The idea that anybody is going to be suddenly pounced upon for importing something into this country contrary to the law when he did not know it is, as far as this matter is concerned, not a practical difficulty at all. However, I do not want to go into that detail. It is the business of the noble Viscount in charge of the Bill and not mine. But I want most particularly to protest against the kind of prejudice which is always excited against legislation of this character on the ground that it is going to lead to bureaucratic interference, tyranny, and all the rest of 892 it. There is written in every line of this Bill the desire and the determination of the Government to be guided in this matter by experts, and to leave the working of the Bill as far as possible in the hands of representatives of the trades which are directly interested.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHMy Lords, I did not come down to the House with any intention of taking part in this debate, but I must say that the request made in this Amendment is extremely moderate and extremely wise. We heard what the noble Lord had to say on the technical question as to whether it would be an undue interference with discretion if it is carried, but I wish to say a word or two on the issues dealt with by the noble Viscount who spoke last. I think that the policy of safeguarding the industries has absolutely general assent. On the other hand, if you are going to keep that general assent you must give the fullest information to show that you are not unduly interfering with what I shall call the traditional trade policy of the country.
There is no doubt that, in principle, the safeguarding of these industries tends to raise abstract questions of fiscal policy. I suppose no one present has suffered more than I have from adherence to a Free Trade policy, but I am a strong supporter of anything—I do not care whether it interferes with abstract principle or not—which is for the national interest and national safety. My view is that an abstract principle is an extremely good servant, but a very bad master. I quite agree that Free Trade is and ought to continue to be the ruling policy of this country, but if it is proved that a complete adherence to it in all respects tends to make it possible for other countries to take undue advantage of us, then I think we must revise our policy. But let it be carefully done, so as to make sure that under the guise of this action we are not establishing a principle which would have a had effect.
I think it is the interest of the Government to enable the working of these provisions to be carried out with as little friction as possible. If that is agreed to it is perfectly obvious that the right way to allay apprehension is to give the fullest information. Most undoubtedly some of the extremer advocates of what used to be called the Tariff Reform policy have taken advantage of the necessity for 893 safeguarding key industries to throw a certain amount of discredit upon the Free Trade policy of the country. In the Report of our Committee on Commercial Industrial Policy after the War I think we have given full grounds for saying that there are things which require to be done. Here is the first instance in a practical way coming before Parliament. Do not let us do anything which will prejudice the policy which I believe to be for the national interest or which will cause the fear that under the guise of proposing to protect key industries we are going too far in the direction of some theoretical protection. Speaking from such knowledge as I have I very strongly advise the Government, if it is at all possible, to accept this Amendment.
§ THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT PEEL)My Lords, I certainly do not propose to quarrel—I am not so presumptuous—with the drafting of any Amendment presented to your Lordships by the noble Marquess opposite, but I hope I may be able to satisfy him, though perhaps not in precisely the form that he desires. There are some difficulties, that I think he will feel rather forcibly, which would occur if this Amendment were accepted in the proposed form.
There are two very strong objections to this particular Amendment. First of all, it is proposed that if an Address is passed by either House praying that certain articles should be removed from the list such articles shall thereupon cease to be prohibited. Therefore, after a Bill has been passed by both Houses, it would be possible for either House to make it very largely nugatory by asserting that certain articles which had been prohibited should be brought in. That is to say, the House of Commons might render your efforts nugatory, and you might pay the same compliment to the House of Commons I submit further that if these enormous lists should be laid on the Table your Lordships would really depart from your legislative and critical functions and would become an administrative body.
These matters of intricate administration involve some hundreds, nay thousands, of different dyes and a great many more names, because the same dye is often imported under different trade names, and I suggest respectfully that you would be dealing with a matter which is much better left to the Executive. Indeed, if your Lordships are going to deal with these 894 specific dyes I think it would be necessary that a number of competent chemists should be elevated to the Peerage and added to your Lordships' House. Though I know the many-sided ability which resides in so many of your Lordships, I doubt if the great body of this House—I say it with all respect—is competent to deal with these tremendously difficult and numerous and complicated organic compounds. I have a list here. Some of the names I am certainly unable to pronounce, and therefore I am not sure that I could make it clear to your Lordships if I read them out. Some of them are about twenty-five syllables in length. I will give you one. Dimethylamidohydroxybenzoylbenzoic acid. There are hundreds and thousands of them. Here is another very nice one, Tetramethyldiamidobenzophenonechloride. I hope your Lordships will consider that to deal with these prodigious compounds is hardly suitable for a legislative House.
A real difficulty has been raised by the noble Marquess. He says, "You say that by licence certain things shall be imported and everything else is excluded under this Bill. Certain people may want to know what is excluded, although they may know what is included." We reply that it is very well known in the trade. The noble Marquess then says, "But there are certain people not in the trade who require some of these particular chemical articles and use them for other purposes, and also for dyes; therefore it is necessary that something should be done." I reply on the general difficulty of providing this list. It is pointed out that there must be some sort of list because, after all, the Customs have to deal with it and if the Customs could be entrusted with it, why should not the general public know it.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYOr at any rate your Lordships.
§ VISCOUNT PEELYour Lordships and those who deal with it should know it. I thought there was a good deal of force in that contention, and I am authorised by the Board of Trade to make a statement on that subject, which I hope will satisfy your Lordships that as much as can be done is done to make it quite clear to the public and those engaged in the trade. I may say first of all that the general licences containing all the lists of those things which can be imported freely will be published. It is impossible to give a definite 895 list, and there are objections to issuing a list purporting to be comprehensive; nevertheless, after consultation with the President of the Board of Trade I am prepared to give an undertaking (a) that the Board of Trade will issue at the earliest possible date, after consultation with the Committee, as detailed a statement as practicable of the kinds of products which are covered by the prohibition, and will issue from time to time such amendment, thereto as may be found necessary—I may say in this connection that there are a good many of these articles issued under different trade names, and of course as soon as a list is published the gentlemen in Germany who are interested will invent new names and the lists will have to be altered a good deal—and (b) that the Board of Trade will similarly issue lists of products covered by the prohibition which may be imported under general licence. So that I think under either list, both prohibited list and licensed list, the public and importers and those connected with the industry will know really very well what they may import and what they may not. I trust that this will meet the very strong objections which were raised by the noble Marquess, and I hope therefore that he may see his way to withdraw his Amendment, perhaps for reasons that I have suggested, and for other reasons which may commend themselves to him.
May I be allowed to add one word on the point raised yesterday by Lord Crewe, although it is not relevant to this Amendment. Lord Crewe raised a point that "organic intermediates" was not sufficiently descriptive, and might apply to other matters besides the derivatives of coal tar. Perhaps I may be allowed to congratulate Lord Crewe upon discovering a point which all the chemists in another place, throughout the long debates, both in Committee and on report, never alluded to. I had said, and I am told that I was correct in stating, that the term "organic intermediates" was limited to coal tar derivatives, and I should like to give the noble Marquess this definite statement. I am advised that I was correct in stating that the term "organic intermediates" used in the manufacture of dyestuffs is clearly understood throughout the chemical manufacturing industry and is confined to derivatives of coal tar. I am therefore of opinion that the correct form of words has been used. That statement will, perhaps, satisfy the noble Marquess.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYYour Lordships will permit me to thank the two noble Viscounts for their very courteous reception of my Amendment. I wish to say, with reference to the last point, that I am quite sure the noble Viscount's observations will be read by Lord Crewe, although of course I do not act in any way for him, but he did ask me to mention the matter and I am afraid that I forgot. As regards the actual proposal, although it does not go so far as I suggested to your Lordships I feel that it would be only proper for me to accept the suggestion made by the Government. It does do the most part of what I wanted, because it indicates to the public exactly how the situation stands so far as the Government can do so; and the intervention of Parliament, although I value that, is not the most important part of the proposal. I may say that I agree to this all the more readily because, if this subject is going to be dealt with in a more comprehensive manner in the course of next year or perhaps the year after, all these questions will have to be reconsidered, and possibly we shall then arrive at a more complete safeguard than it has been possible for the noble Viscount to arrange in these last days of the session.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Viscount Peel.)
§ LORD CAWLEYBefore the Question is put, I should like to ask Lord Milner whether he has ascertained the legal opinion upon the Amendment which I moved yesterday. It was to add the words "and not being members of the British Dyestuffs Corporation, Limited." When I moved it the noble Viscount said it was otiose, because the three other persons are not to be directly concerned. I should like also to remark that the noble Viscount is in error in what he said just now, in supposing that this measure is not looked upon with very great apprehension by those who are possibly most concerned. I can assure him, from very good knowledge of Lancashire, that he is quite mistaken.
This Bill is looked upon with the utmost apprehension, and to prove that I may say that the only users of dyestuffs who are manufacturers and merchants of calico as well as dyers and printers oppose this measure as far as their powers will enable 897 them to do so. I allude to the Calico Printers' Association. All the other users are merely men who dye or print for hire. They do not have anything to do with calico beyond manipulating the cloth as they are told to, for which they get paid just as any other servant gets paid for what he does. Therefore I think the fact that the Calico Printers' Association have the utmost apprehension of this measure shows that Lord Milner is misinformed in making the assertion which he did. Before this Bill passes I should like to express another protest against the relentless way in which a measure which affects the greatest export trade in the country has been pushed through Parliament at the fag end of the session. I do not think it is a right thing to do when the greatest export industry of the country may be very seriously prejudiced by a measure of this sort.
I should like to give notice that next session I will move that a Committee be set up to inquire into the circumstances under which—
I have nothing more to say, but I hope that when I move for this Committee next session it will be granted.
- (1) The Board of Trade allowed a company which they had been instrumental in forming, which was limited as to dividend, and which had admittedly made great progress towards the formation of a national dye industry, to be amalgamated with Messrs. Levinstein and Company, an ordinary joint stock company trading for profit.
- (2) Under which the Board of Trade sold the factory and plant for producing synthetic indigo formerly belonging to Messrs. Meister Lucius and Company at Elsmere Port to Messrs. Levinstein for £75,000.
- (3) Whether Messrs. Levinstein immediately sold the recipe and process for the manufacture of synthetic indigo to an American firm for £250,000.
- (4) The circumstances under which the Government, without the consent of Parliament, have invested £1,700,000 in a public joint stock company unlimited in regard to profit.
§ On Question, Motion agreed to, and Bill passed.