HL Deb 17 December 1920 vol 39 cc418-38

Clause 11, page 13, line 19, after ("fisheries") insert ("and the administration of the Diseases of Animals Acts")

Clause 11, page 13, line 22, after ("fisheries") insert ("and the contagious diseases of animals")

Clause 11, page 13, line 23, after ("fisheries") insert ("and the contagious diseases of animals")

The Commons disagree with these Amendments for the following Reason:

Because the administration of the Diseases of Animals Acts and the power of making laws with respect to the contagious diseases of animals should not be vested in the Council of Ireland to the exclusion of the Irish Parliaments and Governments.

Moved, That this House doth not insist on the said Amendments.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

THE EARL OF MAYO

These Amendments were moved in order that there should be one authority to deal with diseases of animals all over Ireland; and it is really only a matter of administration. The Lord Chancellor said just now that it was a question for the Irish Parliaments to deal with. Of course the Parliaments of Northern and Southern Ireland can pass any laws they like, but it is a matter really of administration and I do not think there should be two authorities in Ireland. There would be a veterinary service in the North and in the South in a country where there is no frontier and where flocks can pass backwards and forwards as they like. There could be no central authority over the matter.

VISCOUNT BRYCE

I should like to support the noble Earl. Every one knows that in Ireland the live stock is of the first possible importance, and any one who has had to do with administration knows the difficulties which arise with two separate administrators dealing with the same problem. It would be extremely inconvenient and might be dangerous if there were different administrators. The same thing would apply to fisheries. There are places on the West Coast where questions will arise, very important questions, and in County Down the administration of fisheries might collide with the administration of Southern Ireland. I regret that the House should not insist on both these Amendments.

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE

I share the view of my two noble friends. This is an unfortunate insistence on the separatist policy between the two parts of Ireland. In one respect Ireland will not gain by this in the relations between the Ministry of Agriculture in this country and the two administrations in Ireland. If there is an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in the County of Cork I am certain that the Minister of Agriculture will not be prepared to receive animals from Belfast any more than he would if the country was under one administration.

THE EARL OF DESART

The Lord Chancellor has said that the administration should not be divorced from the Parliament. Would it be possible to set up a Board to deal with this question consisting of the Presidents of the Agricultural Departments in Northern and Southern Ireland with another Member of the Privy Council so that the administration should be uniform. It is a very important matter. I hope we may obtain single control and create some body which would act for all parts of Ireland.

THE EARL OF CLANWILLIAM

Has the Government considered the possibility of reserving this service to the Imperial Parliament? It is not a matter which affects Ireland only. It affects England, Scotland and Wales.

LORD BLEDISLOE

I rise to emphasise the point that this is not solely an Irish question. I had the experience of sitting upon the Departmental Committee on foot-and-mouth diseases in 1912, and from the evidence we found that something like half the total outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease which had occurred during the previous thirty years came into this country from Ireland. Those foreign countries who are importing our valuable pedigree stock treat the whole of the United Kingdom as one unit, and when their ports are closed against stock owing to outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease they in no way discriminate between outbreaks in Ireland and outbreaks in Great Britain. In the best interests of our own live stock and the valuable trade which is springing up in pedigree stock I hope your Lordships will insist on this provision.

LORD WOLVERTON

There is also to be considered the horse breeding industry in Ireland. At the present time it is perfectly well known that there is a free passage for thoroughbred horses between England and Ireland, and there are many diseases which affect horses as well as cattle. This subject should also be considered from the horse breeding point of view.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

It is a very erroneous view if it is supposed that there is the slightest objection on the part of the Government to the Council administering the Diseases of Animals Act if the Governments agree to delegate that power to the Council. You are setting up in the North and South of Ireland two Boards of Agriculture. These two Boards will have their own staffs. You are setting up a Council not to do this kind of work unless and until the Parliaments of the North and South commit it to them. If you asked the Council to discharge functions of this kind, which it is not contemplated they should discharge, the result would be that they would have to set up some kind of duplicated staffs of their own.

I should have thought that it would have been more in the direction of unity to leave it to the two Parliaments to recognise the importance of the functions of the Council and the desirability of adding to them at all points on which there was obvious unity in the interests of Ireland and which had nothing to do with politics. When the noble Viscount, Lord Bryce, and other speakers say that this is less convenient, of course it is less convenient. Everything is less convenient. As I said in my Second Reading speech if one were thinking only of administrative simplicity one would never dream of dividing Ireland. I expect that if the noble Viscount expressed his view now he would tell us that we should not divide Ireland but have a single Ireland under Home Rule and Ulster held against her will. You cannot have it, and as you cannot have it you have these proposals which are now made.

TUE EARL OF MIDLETON

I desire in a word to suggest that the alteration made by the noble Lord just now by taking out Proportional Representation will enable the Prime Ministers of the North and South entirely to control the composition of the Council. Therefore you would have, that which you had not before, the power of the Executive behind the Council if they chose to exercise it.

On Question, Motion negatived, and Amendments insisted upon.

LORDS AMENDMENT.

Clause 14, page 17, line leave out ("three") and insert ("six").

The Commons disagree with this Amendment for the following Reason:—

Because it is desirable that the Irish Parliaments should not be precluded from altering the election laws during the continuance of the first Houses of Commons to be elected under the Act.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I beg to move that your Lordships do not insist upon this Amendment.

Moved, That this House doth not insist upon the said Amendment.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

LORD PARMOOR

My Lords, I should like to call attention to one point in relation to the substitution of three years for six on the question of proportional representation. I quite agree, and I have read carefully the debates in the other House, that there are various reasons why three years would be a proper number of years for certain matters of detail as to the new elective body, but as regards proportional representation surely it should be preserved for six years. I think that was the chief motive which led us to put in that term here. One's opinion is made stronger, I think, by what was said by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. The noble and learned Lord dwelt on the fact that the House of Commons, or the Lower House—I forget the proper signification of it—was elected by proportional representation and that made it a suitable body for electing the Senate, because you have a truly representative body obtained in that way. I do not want to take up the time of the House, but if I am in order I should like to propose that at the beginning the subsection should read "After three years and after six years in the method of election of proportional representation from the day of the first meeting"—and so on. That would preserve the six years only as regards proportional representation in order that minorities should he properly safeguarded, and in other respects would leave the three years as inserted in the other House.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I think the noble Lord would find it very inconvenient to do that at this stage, and I suggest that on the whole, this having been carried by a small majority, the sense of the House is that we should not insist.

VISCOUNT BRYCE

My Lords, before the question is passed I should like to call attention to another difficulty which has not been mentioned. If I read aright Clause 14 of the Bill it gives the Parliaments of the North and the South power to rearrange constituencies. It is, of course, stated that due regard shall be had to the population of the constituencies other titan university constituencies. One of the first devices that comes into the mind of any politician who desires to secure a majority is to treat the constituency by the method which is called jerrymandering. I do not know whether the technical term is familiar to your Lordships. It means arranging the constituencies, not on a geographical standard, but by putting the largest possible number of your opponents into other constituencies in order that you may have a majority in your own constituency. As everybody knows there is no more happy hunting ground of the politician than the jerrymandering of constituencies.

I think there is a considerable danger that if this unlimited power is given within three years it will be exercised so as to take the second Election not under the schedules in the Bill, which have been drawn up with fairness in this country, but according to the political ideas which may commend themselves to the members of the two Parliaments respectively. In any case it surely would be undesirable to allow the change to take place before there has been proper time to gain experience of the working of this scheme. Three years is a very short time. More than one election ought to take place before a thing so vital as the re-arrangement of constituencies, methods of voting, and so forth, are decided ultimately. Therefore, I respectfully hope that your Lordships will think twice and three times before you withdraw from the Amendment which you have inserted on this point.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The noble Viscount has often told us to trust the people. Apparently the only people he will not trust are the people of Ulster.

VISCOUNT BRYCE

I do not refer to one part of Ireland more than another.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

Then the people of Ireland, which is still worse. I dissent from the noble Viscount's view. What does he say? As the result of a crowded life, rich in experience, he says that the first thing that politicians will do is to turn their minds to jerrymandering. That was never the experience of the Party in which I was brought up. I could not, without the warmest protest, in the least allow his observation to pass as a true picture of our national political atmosphere. Observe also that the noble Viscount's proposal will only save us three years. All the vicious consequences which he foresees are going to happen in six years at any rate. I confess I would rather that the noble Viscount were proved wrong in three years than in six, and therefore I hope your Lordships will agree with the Motion.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

LORDS AMENDMENT.

After Clause 69, insert the following new clause:

Certificate of Speaker with regard to Irish members of the House of Commons.

.—(1) On the passing of this Act the Speaker of the House of Commons of the United kingdom shall communicate with the members returned by constituencies in Southern Ireland and in Northern Ireland respectively to serve in the Parliament of the United Kingdom, and shall invite them to state whether they accept the constitution established under this Act. Such acceptance shall be signified in writing to the Speaker and certified by him to the House of Commons for record in the proceedings of the House.

(2) If within two months after the date of such communication by the Speaker, such acceptance is certified by the Speaker as regards a majority of such members returned by constituencies in Southern Ireland or Northern Ireland, this Act shall come into operation on the appointed day in manner and subject as provided by this Act, but, if at the end of the said period, a certificate has been given by the Speaker as regards a majority of the members so returned by constituencies in one part of Ireland, but not as regards a majority of the members so returned by constituencies for the other part of Ireland, His Majesty in Council may by order provide for the exercise of the powers of the Government of the other part of Ireland by the Lord Lieutenant with the assistance of a Committee consisting of such persons (who shall be members of the Privy Council of Ireland) as His Majesty may appoint for the purpose and of the powers of the Parliament of such part of Ireland by a legislative assembly consisting of the members of the said Committee, together with such other persons as His Majesty may appoint for the purpose. And the Order may make such modifications in this Act in its application to the part of Ireland affected as may appear to His Majesty to be necessary for giving effect to the Order and may contain such other consequential, incidental and supplemental provisions as may appear necessary for the purposes of the Order and any such Order shall have effect as if enacted in this Act, but may be varied by any subsequent Order in Council:

(3) Provided that after the appointed day has been duly fixed under this Act for the part of Ireland in respect of which such acceptance has not been certified by the Speaker and at any time within two years after the passing of this Act His Majesty may issue a Proclamation for summoning a Parliament to meet for that part of Ireland, but unless the Lord Lieutenant, within one month of the date for which such Parliament was sum- moned to meet, certifies that a majority of the members of the House of Commons of that Parliament have signified in writing to him that they accept the constitution established under this Act, His Majesty in Council may provide for the dissolution of that Parliament, and the provisions of the second subsection of this section in regard to the exercise of the powers of the Government and Parliament of the part of Ireland affected shall have effect.

The Commons disagree with this Amendment for the following Reason:

Because the coming into operation of an Act passed by Parliament should not be made contingent upon the approval thereof by a section, of the Members of one of the houses of Parliament.

Moved, That this House doth not insist upon the said Amendment.—(The Lord chancellor.)

THE EARL OF MIDLETON

The noble and learned Lord has given reasons why the clause which I put in should not be carried. The original Clause 70 was that there should be an appeal to the people of Ireland as to whether they would accept Crown Colony government in Ireland. Then in the last subsection, if that fails, from time to time proclamations may be issued. If the proposal of the noble and learned Lord is accepted it would have the effect of enabling the Government, if they fail on the first occasion, to make one more application to the electors by a general election, and if that fails there shall be no further applications, and no further attempts to impose the Act upon an unwilling part of the country. I have made, in accordance with what I think is not far removed from his own view, a proposal that on the second occasion they should require an application to this House by Resolution and to the House of Commons before they make it. That is a very simple proposition, and I really think that if Martial Law—I mean Crown Colony government—is to be part of the recognised curriculum in Ireland it is right that this House should have the opportunity on the second occasion of expressing their view. While I would not dissent from the removal of my clause, I would ask the noble and learned Lord to put this Amendment to Clause 70 which it is proposed to restore.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I quite understand the position of the noble Earl. The Motion is that this House doth not insist upon the said Amendment.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

LORDS AMENDMENT.

Leave out clause 70. The Commons disagree with this Amendment but propose the following Amendment to the Bill: Clause 70, page 56, line 28, after ("Order") insert ("and for making the provisions of this Act (including provisions as to the Council of Ireland) operative in all respects in that part of Ireland").

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I move that your Lordships do not insist upon this Amendment, but propose the following Amendment to Clause 70—viz.: Page 56, line 10, leave out from "for postponing" to "order" on line 13; line 14, leave out "in the meantime." Perhaps it would be convenient if I explained the effect of that in a sentence.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

Will the noble and learned Lord read again the actual form of amendment?

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I will read out the whole Amendment, and then say a word or two upon it. Clause 70, page 57, line 3, leave out subsection (3) and insert a new subsection as follows— (3) At any time within two years after the date of the Order in Council providing for the exercise of the powers of the Government and Parliament of Southern Ireland or Northern Inland as the cast may be in manner provided by subsection (1) of this section His Majesty may, upon a resolution declaring that it is expedient so to do passed by both Houses of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, issue a Proclamation for summoning a Parliament as constituted by this Act to meet for the part of Ireland affected by such Order in Council. Provided that if the Lord Lieutenant certifies, that the number of members"… And then it repeats the provisions of the Bill. Your Lordships will see the effect of that. I think the noble Earl has already explained it, and certainly the noble Marquess has. The effect of it is that supposing we fail in our initial attempt to constitute a House of Commons in Southern Ireland, then Crown Colony government supervenes. At present it is entirely in the power of the Executive at any moment it thinks proper to say, We will have another election. The noble Earl, and I gather the noble Marquess, are very concerned that it shall not be in the power of the Executive, but that it shall require a Resolution from each House of Parliament. I have not said, nor could I say because it is a great modification of the Bill, that that is a change which the House of Commons will accept, but it is at any rate one which is by no means inconsistent with the fundamental scheme, and I think it is a matter that can be very properly submitted to the House of Commons.

Moved, That this House doth not insist upon the said Amendment, but proposes the Amendments to Clause 70 read by the Lord Chancellor.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I am not quite clear on the subsection. I understand all the earlier part of this Amendment. I do not quite understand the paragraph which my noble friend proposes to insert in place of subsection (3), but personally I should be quite satisfied if subsection (3) were cut out quite simply, and nothing else put in.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The effect of it is this. Supposing two years have elapsed after the date of the Order in Council which provides for the exercise of the powers of Parliament, then the Government may after a Resolution of both Houses of Parliament have been passed, and not before, issue a Proclamation. It gives the noble Marquess exactly what he asks for.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I shall not resist it.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

If there is anything verbal that requires alteration it shall be put right. The drafting has been done hurriedly.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

LORDS AMENDMENT.

Clause 71, page 57, line 9, leave out from the first ("day") to the end of subsection (1) and insert as new subsections: ("(2) With the intent that the Parliaments of Southern and Northern Ireland shall not be established until the Parliament of the United Kingdom is satisfied that the authority of His Majesty the King in Southern Ireland and in Northern Ireland respectively, and the protection in their rights and liberties of all persons in Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland respectively are fully assured and that otherwise it is expedient that the said Parliaments, or either of them should be established in Ireland, the appointed day for the purposes of this Act shall be such day as regards Southern Ireland and such day as regards Northern Ireland as may be respectively fixed by a resolution or resolutions, as the case may be, passed by both Houses of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, and by such resolution different days may be appointed for different purposes and different provisions of this Act in its application to the part of Ireland affected by the resolution.

(3) In the event of the appointed day being fixed for Southern Ireland only, or for Northern Ireland only, or being fixed at different times by different resolutions under this section, His Majesty may, by Order in Council, make such modifications in the provisions of this Act in its application to the part Of Ireland affected by a resolution under this section as may appear to His Majesty to be necessary for giving effect to the said provisions in such part, and such Order may contain such other consequential, incidental and supplemental provisions as may appear necessary for the purposes of the Order, and any such Order shall have effect as if enacted in this Act, but may be varied by any aubsequent Order in Council.

(4) Before any Order under this section is submitted to His Majesty in Council a draft thereof shall be laid before both Houses of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, and, if an address is presented to His Majesty by either of those Houses within thirty days on which that House has sat next after any such draft is laid before it against such draft or any part thereof, no further proceedings shall be taken on the draft or the part thereof to which the address relates; but this provision shall be without prejudice to the making of a new draft.").

The Commons disagree with this Amendment for the following Reason: Because it is desirable that the Bill should come into operation without delay and because it is inexpedient that an Act passed by both Houses of Parliament should be suspended until those Houses have again approved it.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

If your Lordships will be good enough to look at Clause 71 of the Lords' Bill, subsection (3), you will see that in the third line of that subsection there is the word "section." I propose to insert— Paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of Clause 70 shall apply in respect of that part of Ireland for which the appointed day has not been fixed, until it is fixed and the House of Commons for that part of Ireland has been elected and". The effect of that Amendment is that until the appointed day is fixed for Southern Ireland—of course Northern Ireland, although it is included in terms, is not really in question—the provisions of paragraph (b) of the Amendment we have just been discussing will apply, that is to say Crown Colony government will apply. So that the Government will have all the advantage of being able to govern Ireland by what my noble friend called, with a very pardonable lapsus linguae, Martial Law. It will have the opportunity of doing that, and at the same time all the provisions of the Bill which enable them to create their Council and the rest of the machinery of the Bill will be kept in being for that part of Ireland even before the appointed day has been settled by both Houses of Parliament. So that it will cover that lacuna which the noble and learned Lord so properly called our attention to when he spoke at the beginning of our proceedings this afternoon. I beg to move.

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE

I confess I should have preferred the formula originally proposed by the noble Marquess behind me, which would appear to have given His Majesty's Government more discretion as to the manner in which Ireland should be governed in the event of Southern Ireland refusing a Parliament, than the form in which it appears in the Bill, and which appears to involve what, has been so improperly and wrongly described as being Crown Colony government, but which is, as I endeavoured to explain before, a system of very severe and autocratic government. But as my noble friend consented, in deference to the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, to abandon his paragraph (3), it is obviously useless to press it upon him or the House.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

As I understand the object of the noble Marquess it is to propose that his Amendment stands as printed on the Paper.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

As printed on the Paper with this Amendment, in lines 3 of subsection (3) to add the words which I read out. The noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, when he spoke earlier this afternoon, said that until the appointed day was fixed for Southern Ireland there would be a lacuna— there would be no proper means of governing the country, and it would not be possible tit create the Council, and all the rest of the machinery of the Bill, because there would be nothing which would act in place of the Parliament of Southern Ireland. The scheme of the Government, of course, always has been that until the Southern Parliament can be established this Committee of the Privy Council which succeeds to all the powers of the Southern Parliament shall be able to do everything that the Southern Parliament could have alone, and amongst other things can choose members to serve on the Senate, and put in force all the machinery of the Bill. Well, said the noble and learned Lord, if the Amendment is agreed to we cannot create a Council; there would be no body able to choose members to join the Council, because there would be no power for giving anybody authority in the place of the Southern Parliament until it is created. In order to cover that point I propose to insert these words, and thus make good the lacuna. I believe it meets the point completely.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I am much obliged to the noble Marquess for his explanation. In the original observations which he made when there was some general discussion, the noble Marquess said he had two objects. One object was contained in the earlier part of this clause, and that was to provide that the appointed day should be dependent upon the assent of Parliament. I indicated that as far as that was concerned it was a concession which I could not make. The other object which the noble Marquess said he had very close to his heart was that when we had decided that the time was ripe to have the elections, if our anticipations were fortified by events, so that we had to resort to Crown Colony Government, we should not make a second attempt until Parliament had assented to it.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

That has to do with the last Amendment.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I certainly did not gather that he intended or wished to insist upon that part of his Amendment which provided that the appointed day could not arise until Parliament gave its assent. I am sorry that that is a matter to which I cannot agree. It means this. In the House of Commons this Bill has been debated for many months, and concurrently with those debates the Government has day by day and week by week had the responsibility of maintaining, or attempting to maintain, law and order in Ireland. As long as we are a Government we shall be confronted with the same responsibility, and I put it to your Lordships, as a fair and reasonable thing, that the Government to whom are entrusted the powers and the duties of suppressing disorder and putting down crime in Ireland should not be denied the right at the same time of judging as to the moment when powers given by Parliament can be put in operation. We have had difficulties enough, as any one who has listened to the debates knows, in reaching this stage of this Bill, and it is really impossible, after all these debates, conferences and amendments, that, if the moment arrives when in our judgment it is time to put this Bill into operation, we should have to come to Parliament and have Second Reading debates, protracted to I know not what length, before a decision can be reached. The Constitution of the House of Commons might very greatly have altered. There might be there a body which did not sympathise, as the present House of Commons, and on the whole, it must now be assumed, this House also, sympathise, with the view that the time has arrived, owing to a variety of causes, when this experiment can be made, and you would put yourselves completely at the mercy of the House of Commons in the circumstances which I have proposed. I do not think that any Government could be expected to agree to such a limitation of its authority when it has obtained the sanction of Parliament after the fullest debate to this proposal. The House of Commons, and I hope the Government, have shown or attempted to show the greatest reasonableness in treating the Amendments which your Lordships have sent down to them. If I am not wrong this particular Amendment was carried by a very small majority—I think it was a majority of 1—

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

What was carried by a majority of I was the Motion to strike out Clause 70. This Amendment was allowed to pass without a Division.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The reason I think, was that the Amendment which was carried by a majority of I was preparatory of this Amendment.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

No, I was careful to explain that it was more preparatory of the Amendment moved by Lord Askwith, and that was the reason why he moved to strike out Clause 70.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I do not pit my recollection against that of the noble Marquess, but I would say that in a matter in which there has been a most sincere attempt on the part of the Government to meet the views of the noble Lords I earnestly express the hope that your Lordships will not put upon us a disability which, having regard to the responsibility that we are attempting to discharge, we should feel to be one that was not really consistent with the main object of this Bill or with the powers which we thought your Lordships, by reading the Bill a Second time, were giving to this Government and not to a Parliament two years hence.

LORD SUMNER

I hope your Lordship will support the proposal of the noble Marquess, and I say that upon what think are constitutional grounds. As the Clause stands which the Government wish to replace they have fixed rigidly a time within which the appointed day is to be fixed, if at all, by Order in Council; that is to say, they have pat it in the power of disaffected persons in Ireland, if they can manage to prolong the period of disorder sufficiently, to frustrate the bringing of this Act into force, unless the Government are prepared to take the responsibility of advising His Majesty to appoint a day at a time when the circumstances of Ireland are obviously unfitted for it. In that event the Government will be compelled to come back to the Legislature, to both Houses, and be compelled to ask them to take up the question again at some time or other, and carry it through all these stages which have occupied so much time with the present Bill, in fact to begin a Home Rule discussion all over again.

On the other hand, the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack says that the Government must claim the right to be left to advise. His Majesty as to when that day is to be fixed, upon the ground that they bear the responsibility of the government of Ireland, and must be left free to choose their own time. He used expressions protesting against being left at the mercy of the House of Commons, or protesting against its being necessary to go through what he appeared to regard as a very protracted matter—Second Reading debates in both Houses. Those I must say, seem to me to be, as practical difficulties, of small importance. The time that can be occupied in debate upon the question "Is this an opportune moment for bringing the Act into force and appointing the day?" must either be very short, if both Houses are agreed that, it is the opportune moment; or can only be protracted because one or both Houses are satisfied that it is not an opportune moment. In the latter case time is not wasted, because the day ought not to be fixed at all. In the former case, I should think it could be done in an afternoon. It is a new doctrine I think for the Government to claim the right to be independent of the legislature, and particularly to be independent of the House of Commons, upon the ground that when the time comes at which they wish to act the House of Commons may no longer wish that action to be taken, and may have so far changed as not to be willing to support them. In circumstances like those, I think that, before the war at any rate, Governments fell. I thought that Governments derived their support from the legislature, and particularly from the other branch of the legislature, and that it was only by retaining the confidence, at any rate of that branch of the legislature, that they continued to survive. I do not, therefore, appreciate what the particular importance is, apart from amour propre, of insisting, as the noble and learned Lord does, upon the claim of a right in the Government to decide independently of any further discussions within the walls of Parliament what time is appropriate for the fixing of the appointed day.

I regard with some alarm the prospect of having the Government tied down to a limited period of about fifteen months as a maximum within which if at all the Act is to be brought into operation in regard to the more controversial parts of it. I think it is extremely likely that they would find themselves compelled, rather than let the thing fall to the ground, to bring it into operation upon the chance of its succeeding, so that time might be saved. On the other hand, it does not appear to me, with great respect to the opinion which is expressed in the Commons Reasons, that it is at all an exact way of stating the case to say that it is inexpedient that an Act passed by both Houses of Parliament should be suspended until those Houses have again approved it. It is an ingenious way of putting it no doubt. I say that with all humility. I do not wish to accuse another place of ingenuity in a matter like this. But it seems to be scarcely in accordance with the actual position. It is not that the Act is suspended. By the terms of the Act itself it does not come into operation until something further has been done.

The whole question is whether that something further should be done by the legislature from which the Act proceeds or by the Government without further consultation of the legislature. And certainly the selection of a time for bringing the Act into force in Southern Ireland is a matter requiring the gravest consideration, and I am unable to understand why the Government should be reluctant to take the opinion of both Houses upon that matter. The support of both Houses at such a moment will add greatly to their confidence, and greatly to their authority. On the other hand, the fact that there was no consultation of either House upon the subject would diminish their authority, and if it were the case that it was known that there was a strong body of opinion in either I House which held that the moment was inopportune, it would be an invitation to the forces of disorder to contest what the Government had brought into force, and to do their best, upon this promising occasion, to defeat the operation of the Act. I hope, therefore, that your Lordships will support the proposal of the noble Marquess.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, I have looked into the debate in the OFFICIAL REPORT of the previous discussions, and I find that I began my observations by saying that, having regard to the position which has just been reached, I should not put the House to the trouble of a Division in order to say whether the Government is right or wrong in its view of the facts. The noble and learned Lord who has just sat down is entitled to speak with great authority on this matter—

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I do not wish to interrupt the noble and learned Lord. I am quite certain that your Lordships wish to listen to him; he always makes a great impression on the House; but I should like to know before the learned occupant of the Woolsack enlightens our debate whether, if he is allowed to speak several times on one question, we shall all be allowed the same privilege. If the noble and learned Lord wants to make an explanation, of course we shall listen to him. I hope he will believe that I speak with the greatest possible respect.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

As the noble and learned Lord who has just sat down intervened on a subject of great importance, and has made a suggestion that a somewhat grave constitutional question is involved, I should have welcomed the opportunity of saying such was not the case.

EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON

I hope that the noble Marquess will not be too stiff in his insistence.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

No, I will not.

EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON

Your Lordships will recognise that the noble and learned Lord is in charge of the Bill, and that he is more competent than anyone else to advise upon it. I am sure your Lordships will not insist too much upon the strict rules of debate.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I think Lord Cave wishes to speak.

VISCOUNT CAVE

My Lords, I shall not rise if the noble and learned Lord wishes to conclude his remarks. I hesitate to intervene in a matter of this kind, but it is one of so grave a character that I venture to address to your Lordships a few words. The noble Marquess invites you to insist upon his Amendment, which is resisted by the Government; and the effect may be extremely grave upon the fortunes of the Bill. Where do we stand? Your Lordships have passed the Third Reading of this Bill, and you are, I think, about to pass it through its other stages. But a proposal is made that you should keep a hand upon the Bill for the future. That is an entirely new proposal, and it seems to me that it involves uncertainty on the part of your Lordships upon this great question of policy.

What you are asked to say is this. You are asked to reserve this point, that the Bill shall have no operation unless both Houses of Parliament at some future time agree to confirm once again the principle of the Bill. Look at the terms of the clause itself. When complying with the clause, the two Houses have to be satisfied that the rights and liberties of all persons in Southern and Northern Ireland are fully assured. How can one say at some time to come, when other considerations, political perhaps, have intervened, that both Houses will take the same kind of impartial view of the matter which, to the satisfaction I think of the whole country, they have taken to-day? I think that this new experiment should not be tried, and should not be insisted upon, but that we who have supported the Bill in some cases very reluctantly to begin with but with no hesitation, should go on to the end and pass the Bill in the form which it has now reached.

May I add that it is proposed by the clause that different days may be appointed for the two parts of Ireland or indeed that the Act may, if Parliament so pleases, be allowed to operate in Northern Ireland and refused to Southern Ireland. Then what is to happen according to the clause as now proposed to be amended? Simply because this House or the other House refuses to fix a day for Southern Ireland what is called Crown Colony government or what the noble Marquess Lord Crewe called arbitrary government shall come into operation in that country. That would happen through no fault of Southern Ireland; not because Southern Ireland refuses the Bill, but because this House or the other House thinks that the time has not come to put the Bill into operation. You would put this House in the position of imposing that form of government on a part of Ireland. I do not see how your Lordships can put yourselves in that position, and for the reasons I have given and for others which are indeed very serious I hope that the noble Marquess will not ask the House to take the step which is suggested in his Amendment.

LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE

I cannot help thinking, my Lords, that we have already succeeded in obtaining a great deal in what has been granted to us by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. I understand that the suggestion of my noble friend Lord Midleton has now been accepted, and it is settled that the Government shall have an opportunity immediately of seeing whether the Home Rule Bill which they are now in the act of passing does or does not appeal to the people in the North and South of Ireland. It is going to be accepted by the people of the North no doubt, but supposing it is not accepted by the people of the South, before the Government can on any future occasion submit this question again, they will have to have a vote of both Houses of Parliament upon it. It seems to me that that gives us in the South of Ireland very great protection, and I would ask the noble Marquess whether he does not think that we are sufficiently protected by the Amendment which has been accepted.

THE EARL OF SELBORNE

May I say in reply to the noble Lord who has just spoken that in my opinion and in the opinion of many noble Lords, that does not meet the case. The issue can be put very clearly and succinctly. I do not agree in the way the noble Viscount Lord Cave has stated it. Here is a matter of supreme importance for the future of the United Kingdom and the defence of these islands. Is Ireland in a proper condition to refuse self-government or not? Is that a decision which should rest with Parliament or with the Cabinet? Before the war nobody would have doubted that it should have rested with Parliament because then the Cabinet had not assumed functions belonging to Parliament.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

Surely a fundamental fallacy underlies the observations which the noble Earl has just made. It is not that these powers are now conceded to the Cabinet, as against Parliament. It is Parliament here and now that is giving authority to the Government, and if the Government exercise those powers it will not exercise them in the unconstitutional manner mentioned by the noble Earl, but in virtue of the power of Parliament which is recording its decision in this House to-night and has already done so in another place. It is not to be imagined that we are going to delay the submission of this matter to the South of Ireland for the indefinite period which the noble Lord supposes. Our Irish advisers are of opinion that it may be possible in the course of a few months. Temper is changing so quickly and the decision of victory is being so clearly determined on the side of law and order that we shall be able to put it to Southern Ireland without the interminable delay which is suggested. It has been said that if an election is held only Sinn Feiners will be found at the ballot box. We feel strong enough to say that if there is a Sinn Feiner at the ballot box there will be somebody else there too. We feel ourselves quite confident enough to predict that in a not very long period we may be able to hold an election with absolute safety in Ireland. Supposing we are able to do that in the course of five or six months, we ask for power to exercise our discretion to do it then without a further application to Parliament. If it is not accepted, we think that we should not be forced to come to Parliament whenever we want to do it again. I hope your Lordships will not accept the noble Marquess's Amendment.

Moved, That this House doth not insist upon the said Amendment.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Drafting Amendment agreed to.

LORDS AMENDMENT.

THIRD SCHEDULE.

COMPOSITION OF SENATE OF NORTHERN

IRELAND.

PART I.

Offices entitling holders to be Senators:

The Lord Mayor of Belfast;

The Mayor of Londonderyy.

PART II.

ELECTED SENATORS.

Twenty-four senators to be elected by the members of the House of Commons of Northern Ireland in such manner as that House may determine.