HL Deb 01 December 1920 vol 42 cc906-10

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—,(The Earl of Lytton.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clauses I to 6 agreed to.

Clause 7:

Short title

7. This Act may be cited as the Unemployment (Relief Works) Act, 1920.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY moved to add the following new subsection—

(2) This Act shall continue in force for six months and no longer unless Parliament otherwise determines, provided that the expiry of this Act shall not—

  1. (a) affect the previous operation thereof or of anything duly done or suffered thereunder; or
  2. (b) affect any right, privilege, obligation or liability acquired, accrued or incurred thereunder; or
  3. (c) affect any legal proceeding, arbitration, remedy or investigation in respect of such right, privilege, obligation or liability as aforesaid
and any such legal proceeding, arbitration, remedy or investigation may instituted, enforced or continued as if this Act had not expired.

The noble Marquess said: My Lords, as the noble Earl is aware, this Bill has been brought forward as a matter of great urgency. I was not present when the Bill was read a second time last night, and I apologise for my absence, but I know quite well that the Bill is looked upon as urgent. I am not prepared to contest that view, which must be a matter for the Executive to decide, and your Lordships would be willing to accept it. No doubt the question of unemployment may be a very urgent matter indeed, but it is a corollary to the urgency of the Bill that it should not he made a permanent Statute.

If the Bill is so necessary and urgent that the Government think it right to take its stages on successive days, it seems to me to follow that it should not be permanent. Beyond that the Bill deals with intricate matters involving points of great delicacy—compensation, notice, rights of property and matters of that kind—which are quite open to be dealt with, and possibly your Lordships may wish to deal with them in the way the Government propose. If they are to be dealt with on a permanent basis they require time and care. Therefore, I have put down an Amendment to make the Bill a temporary measure, so that it will last for only six months.

I have had the privilege of a private conference with the noble Earl, and I am given to understand that if the period were twelve months instead of six the Government would not find it altogether difficult to accept the Amendment. There is one pitfall which lies in the road, and that is that these annual Bills have a habit of finding their way into the Expiring Laws (Continuance) Bill. Of course, in one sense the Expiring Laws (Continuance) Bill is a measure which is submitted to your Lordships' approval, and it is always open to Parliament to strike out particular items from it, but those of us who have been in Parliament as many years as the noble Earl and I have been, know that generally speaking, by the time the House comes to consider the Expiring Laws (Continuance) Bill it is not always very easy to get public attention and the attention of a large number of noble Lords to the legislative proposals that are being made. It therefore very often happens that once a thing is in the Expiring Laws (Continuance) Bill it goes on from year to year, and it is almost impossible to focus public attention sufficiently upon the question to make it easy to deal with.

If I consent to alter this Amendment from six months to twelve months and the House is willing to accept that, what I should like is a declaration from the Government that they propose to treat Parliament fairly in the matter and not subject this to a sort of formal insertion in the Expiring Laws (Continuance) Bill from year to year, which would really be to defeat my object, which I believe is a perfectly proper object, of making this a temporary Bill. Therefore if the noble Earl can satisfy me upon this point, then I will of course meet his wishes both as to the form in which this Amendment shall be moved, and also whether it shall be done on this stage of the Bill or a future stage. But if I cannot get a proper declaration from him, I am afraid I shall be obliged to persist with the Amendment as it stands on the Paper.

Amendment moved— Clause 7, page 6, after line 10, insert the said new subsection.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE EARL OF LYTTON)

I appreciate the point put by the noble Marquess, and I admit there is great force in his argument. As I explained yesterday, this is regarded by the Government as an emergency Bill, and we had no intention of making it permanent beyond the period of the emergency itself. As, however, it is not possible to see exactly how long the emergency may last, I should prefer to accept the Amendment in the form of 12 months instead of 6 months.

With regard to the request that the noble Marquess has made on the point of continuing the Bill in the Expiring Laws (Continuance) Bill I hope I can satisfy him on that point too. The noble Marquess will understand that I am unable to bind future Governments. I can only give him an assurance on behalf of the present Government who have introduced the Bill. On their behalf I am prepared to say that we have no intention of putting this Bill into the Expiring Laws (Continuance) Bill as a matter of course merely because it may be convenient to use these powers at some future date. I will undertake, on behalf of the Government, that during the period under which this Bill runs, we will carefully consider whether there are any clauses which ought to be made permanent, and also whether there is any need to continue the Bill beyond the period for which it has been introduced and to which it will be limited. I cannot undertake, if it is found a year hence that it is necessary to continue the Bill for some short time longer, that the Government will not ask Parliament to continue it under that Bill in that form. I will, however, undertake to say it will not be put into that Bill unless there is a very special reason at that moment for continuing the measure for a further period; in other words, unless the emergency for which it has been introduced is still, in the opinion of the Government, continuous.

I think the noble Marquess will be a little unreasonable if he presses me to say that, supposing the emergency were such as to require the Bill to be continued for a few months longer, we should introduce another Bill of a temporary character or even a Bill of a permanent character to take powers which are not required permanently. The convenient way, I feel sure, of prolonging it for a short period should that be necessary would be under the procedure of the Expiring Laws (Continuance) Bill, but I hope that the noble Marquess will be satisfied with my assurance that it is the intention of the Government to regard this as a temporary Bill and to treat Parliament fairly in the matter.

I would like to conclude by making one appeal to the noble Marquess, and it is this. It is very important that this Bill, if possible, should receive the Royal Assent before the end of this week. If the Bill passes through Committee unamended to-night, it will be possible to take the Report stage immediately, and the Amendment moved by the noble Marquess could be carried on the Third Reading. That would enable the Royal Assent to be received to-morrow or on Friday. I would therefore ask the noble Marquess if he will be good enough to withdraw his Amendment now, and I will undertake, if he moves it on the Third Reading—which I believe will be the first Order to-morrow—in the form which I have suggested, to accept it then.

THE EARL OF SELBORNE

I am very sensible of the courteous and complete manner in which the noble Earl has met our reasonable suggestions, and I am authorised to say that my noble friend (Lord Salisbury) will certainly fall in with the suggestion made that he should move his Amendment in the form agreed upon on the Third Reading. There is only one point which the noble Earl has missed. In case the Government find it necessary to continue this Bill or part of it in the Expiring Laws (Continuance) Act for however short a period, will they give us notice beforehand of their intention to do so?

THE EARL OF LYTTON

Yes, my Lords, I will give that undertaking.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn—

Clause 7 agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment, and to be read 3a to-morrow.