HL Deb 03 August 1920 vol 41 cc711-3

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH rose to move, in connection with "The Outline of Proposals as to the Future Organisation of Transport Undertakings in Great Britain and their Relation to the State" recently presented to Parliament by command of His Majesty, for a Return showing—

  1. 1. The mileage, capital, and net receipts in the year 1913 of the railways in Great Britain included in Groups 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and the Scottish group, giving the figures for each of the railways separately and also the total figures for each group; and
  2. 2. The expenditure for each such railway in the years 1913 and 1919 and the estimated expenditure for the year 1920, giving also the total figures for each group.
The noble Duke said: My Lords, in moving for this Return I shall not detain your Lordships for more than a minute. A very interesting Command Paper has been circulated with regard to the future of railways, but we have had no statistics given. Undoubtedly the Ministry will have the figures for which I ask, and I suppose some day someone can obtain them, but I think it is very desirable that not only your Lordships but the general public should have some further knowledge before the Bill embodying these schemes comes into operation. With regard to the bulk of these statistics there will, of course, be no difficulty, with the exception possibly of those referred to in the second Question—namely, the estimated expenditure for the year 1920. That undoubtedly has been made out, because the Ministry otherwise would not have known what sums to apply to Parliament for to make up the deficiencies. I think it is also very desirable to know how the increases have been accumulating, or expanding, during the last few years. For instance, your Lordships may be surprised to know that the expenditure of the Scottish railways in 1913 was about £8,600,000. In the year 1914 it had risen to £21,760,000, and the estimate for 1920 is no less than £29,400,000, or about three and a-half times what it was in the pre-war period and before Government control came in. If this estimate is correct for 1920, and it is probably not far off, there will be an increase of 240 per cent. Other railways may not be the same, but I think it will be greatly to the advantage of Parliament and the country if the figures are given. It will afford us a proper grasp of the problem, which is a very serious and difficult one. Therefore I hope that the Government will be able to grant this Return.

Moved, That there be laid before the House a Return showing (1) The mileage, capital, and net receipts in the year 1913 of the railways in Great Britain included in Groups 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and the Scottish group, giving the figures for each of the railways separately and also the total figures for each group; and (2) the expenditure for each such railway in the years 1913 and 1919 and the estimated expenditure for the year 1920, giving also the total figures for each group.—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)

THE EARL OF LYTTON

My Lords, I agree with the noble Duke that the information for which he has asked is necessary in order to understand the policy of the Government, and I have made inquiries of the Ministry of Transport as to whether this Return can be supplied. I am told that it is not possible at the moment to give this information, and for this reason—that although the proposed grouping of railways in Great Britain shown in the Command Paper to which he refers in the Question does include the more important companies, that is only in order to give a general idea of the proposals of the Government in this matter; but the exact composition of the groups has not yet been determined; and before the composition of these groups is definitely determined the Government are anxious to ascertain the views of the railway companies and also of the representative bodies of traders and users as to the proposals now outlined, and they are at this moment taking steps to consult these bodies. Although, for these reasons, it is not possible to give this Return at the present moment, the Government will undertake that the information will be made available when the detailed proposals for carrying out their scheme are laid before Parliament. For these reasons I hope that the noble Duke will not press his Motion.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

Will the noble Earl say when the proposals are likely to be made public?

THE EARL OF LYTTON

I am afraid I cannot say.

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE

Cannot the noble Earl see that the figures are supplied a little before the actual detailed proposals are laid before Parliament? It will certainly be of interest to the noble Duke and others that they should have time to discuss and study this Return before the proposals are put in the form of a Bill.

THE EARL OF LYTTON

I will make representations to the Department, and I have very little doubt that they will give the information as soon as it can be obtained.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.