HL Deb 20 November 1919 vol 37 cc323-37

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Lee of Fareham.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The EARL of DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

Penalty for failure to destroy rats and mice.

1. Any person who shall fail to take such steps as may from time to time be necessary and reasonably practicable for the destruction of rats and mice on or in any land of which he is the occupier, or for preventing such land from becoming infested with rats or mice shall he liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five pounds, or where he has been served with a notice under this Act requiring him to take such steps, not exceeding twenty pounds.

LORD BLEDISLOE moved, after—"Any person who shall fail to take such steps as," to insert "in the opinion of a local authority having power to enforce this Act." The noble Lord said: This clause, as your Lordships no doubt have noticed, contains two different parts. My fear is that, as it stands, the first part is not likely to be put into operation without some amendment. It contemplates the jurisdiction of petty sessions or some other Court of summary jurisdiction in cases where a summons is brought against an individual who is deemed not to have taken "necessary and reasonably practicable" steps for the destruction of rats or the other vermin with which the Bill deals. It appears that such a Court will have two duties thrown upon it. The first is to decide what are "necessary and reasonably practicable" steps for the destruction of rats upon an alleged offender's premises, and the second is to decide whether in a particular case coming before the Court such steps have actually been taken.

I cannot conceive of any subject on which there is more profound ignorance, particularly amongst farmers, than the best means of exterminating rats. At present the British public Is rather at the mercy of those who advertise in the Press the virtues of some poison or some other nostrum for the destruction of rats, and I cannot quite picture a petty sessional Court that is fully equipped for deciding in a particular case whether suitable and effective steps have been taken for the eradication of these pests. Whatever may be the function of such a Court in deciding whether or not an offence has actually been committed in any particular case, I suggest that it is outside their proper function to decide whether the steps that have been taken can be described as "necessary and reasonably practicable."

The object that I have in view in moving this Amendment is to leave it to the local authority, which is the operative authority provided under this Bill, to say whether in any particular case in their opinion necessary and reasonably effective steps have been taken. Then it will be for the Court of summary jurisdiction to say whether in a particular case those steps have actually been taken. I have a consequential Amendment which no doubt the noble Lord has noticed on the Paper, for the insertion after Clause 3 of a new clause which will make it obligatory upon the local authority, under this Bill. to let it be known by public notice or otherwise what are the best steps which should be taken for the destruction of rats or mice, and so make it less easy for an alleged offender in any particular case to say that he has taken such steps as he ought to have taken to rid his premises of these pests.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 5, after ("as") insert ("in the opinion of a local authority having power to enforce this Act").—(Lord Bledisloe.)

THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND-FISHERIES (LORD LEE OF FAREHAM)

Might I, in the first place, apologise to your Lordships, and to the noble Lord in particular, for my absence on a previous occasion. I feel sure you will realise that it was not wilful on my part, and I am sorry if it caused inconvenience to any of your Lordships. I hope that my noble friend will not press this particular Amendment, as I hope to be able to meet him with regard to some of the Amendments which follow. I think there is real objection to this particular Amendment, because it rather strikes at the principle of the Bill, which is that every occupier of premises should be, so to speak, responsible for his own rats—that there should not be any necessity for notice to be given him that his premises are rat-infested, but that he should of his own volition deal with the rats and other vermin on his own premises; and if he has not done so, and it is established afterwards that he has not done so, he should be guilty of an offence. I think this carries out the spirit which the noble Lord himself illustrated in his speech on the Second Reading. The Amendment, if introduced, would really make a defence depending upon the opinion of a local authority, even though such opinion had never been embodied in a notice served on the offender. I think the position is stronger without the Amendment, and for that reason I hope that it will not be pressed.

LORD BLEDISLOE

I do not press the Amendment in view of what the President has said.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD BLEDISLOE moved to increase the fine to "not exceeding £10." The noble Lord said: The President of the Board of Agriculture, on the Second Reading of this Bill, rightly stated that this plague which is over-running this country to-day requires drastic action on the part both of the Board and presumably of the Courts of summary jurisdiction. If the maximum fine for this offence, where no notice has been given, is not more than £5, I cannot conceive that in the case of a large and prosperous farmer, for instance, it is likely to prove an effective deterrent. If the Act is really to be drastic in every sense, £10 is not too large a fine to inflict.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 10, leave out ("five") and insert ("ten").—(Lord Bledisloe.)

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

This is not a question of principle, but of expediency. I know that it was very strongly felt in another place that for a first offence, in the absence of notice, it would be undesirable to impose a heavier penalty than £5. The noble Lord has no doubt observed that the case of a wilful offence—that is to say, after notice has been given—is punishable by a fine of £20, and it was felt that there should be a real distinction made between the two classes of offence. I believe that in similar offences £5 is the usual maximum. I do not know whether it is considered that an exception should be made in this Bill, but unless the noble Lord feels very strongly on the matter I would suggest that we should rely upon the really heavy penalty of £20 in cases of offence after notice has been given.

LORD BLEDISLOE

I candidly confess that I do not feel very strongly about this Amendment, because I do not think that the first part is very likely to be put into operation. Therefore I do not press the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clauses 1, 2, and 3 agreed to.

LORD BLEDISLOE had on the Paper an Amendment, after Clause 3, to insert the following new clause—

Notice by local authority of effective methods.

4. Every local authority having power to enforce this Act shall from time to time by public notice within its area give instructions as to the most effective methods that can be adopted both individually and collectively with a view to the destruction of rate and mice.

The noble Lord said: I have already explained why I desire to move this new clause. It is because I think there is widespread ignorance throughout the country as to what are the most effective measures, and that if the local authorities, particularly the county committees, which used to be described as the war executive committees, really wish to secure the extermination of rats the least they can do is to instruct the public as to the best methods of dealing with the matter.

Amendment moved— Insert the said new clause.—(Lord Bledisloe.)

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

If my noble friend will accept a slight amendment of his Amendment I shall be very pleased to accept it. I suggest that he should substitute "A" for "Every" as the first word in the clause, and "may" for "shall." When the Act first comes into force it is admitted that the issue of notices may be necessary in all districts until the situation is well understood, but it is felt that to impose this as a permanent and statutory obligation on the part of local authorities, even though the rat plague may have disappeared from their midst, would really be unnecessary, and further, that it might lead actually to defeating the object which both the noble Lord and the Government have in view. Also in the absence of proof of publication of notice in any of these cases it might be urged as an excuse, though not of course any legal defence. I think that situation is very likely to develop in a year or two's time, and therefore I think the needs will be met if the noble Lord will agree to the slight modification of his Amendment which I suggest.

LORD HINDLIP

I am a little doubtful about this clause. Might not the local authorities and the county councils give some instructions, such as the gassing of rats, which might be perfectly impossible to carry out, and might not that be taken by the petty sessional Court as evidence of not carrying out what the authority had suggested.

LORD BLEDISLOE

I, for my part, have a greater belief in the justices and in the capacity of the county councils of this country than to imagine that they would take the somewhat ignorant and shortsighted view suggested. I should like to see the greatest possible discretion given to the local authorities to carry out this and other similar Acts. My fear always is that the Government do not credit the local authorities with the very large amount of increasing experience that they possess in regard to all matters like this. I am quite sure that in leaving it to their discretion it will be more effectively carried out than if they were dictated to by a Government Department. Knowing the preference of all Government Departments in favour of "may" over "shall," I realised that my noble friend might suggest what he has suggested as a possible alternative. I am, of course, quite ready to accept it, and also the other alteration which he suggested.

Amendment moved— After Clause 3, insert the following new clause—

"Notice by local authority of effective methods.

"4.A local authority having power to enforce this Act may from time to time by public notice within its area give instructions as to the most effective methods that can be adopted both individually and collectively with a view to the destruction of rats and mice."—(Lord Bledisloe.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4:

Powers of local authorities and authorised persons, and penalty for interference.

4—(1) Where a local authority having power to enforce this Act is of opinion that the occupier of any land in its district has failed to take such steps as are required by section one of this Act, such local authority may either serve a notice on the occupier requiring him to take such steps within a time specified in the notice, or after not less than twenty-four hours previous notice to the occupier enter upon the land and take such steps as are necessary and reasonably practicable for the purpose of destroying the rats and mice on the land or of preventing the land from becoming infested with rats and mice, and may recover any expenses so incurred from the occupier of the land summarily as a civil debt.

(2) Any person authorised in writing by a local authority under this Act, or by a person empowered to act in default of a local authority, may enter any land in the district of such local authority for the purpose of ascertaining whether the steps required by section one of this Act are being taken or of executing and enforcing this Act in any other respect. Any such person must produce the document by which he is authorised if so required.

(3) Any person who shall obstruct or impede an officer or other person authorised as aforesaid in the execution of his duties or powers under this Act, or who, being the occupier of any land, shall fail to comply with any reasonable requirement of any such officer or other authorised person for facilitating the execution of his duties or powers shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds.

LORD BLEDISLOE moved, in subsection (1), after "Act," where that word secondly occurs, to insert "or that its district or any area thereof is infested or likely to become infested with rats or mice." The noble Lord said: This clause is really the most important one in the Bill, and the Amendments that I propose to move I regard as substantial ones. I hope the noble Lord may find it possible to accept the words which I have put down, or some other words; or at any rate that he will accept the intention of this Amendment. This clause appears to me not to recognise fully the fact that the rat is a gregarious animal. It is common knowledge that when corn sacks are removed from farmers' premises unless the rats are immediately destroyed they spread out on to neighbouring farms, and even without their discovery or the removal of what may be hiding them from public view they very often migrate and travel over a considerable area from one set of premises to another. What I seek by the Amendment which I have put down is to render it impossible for a local authority having powers under this Bill to serve Notice merely upon one individual. I desire the Notice to be served upon all the individuals in a particular area which may be deemed to be infested with rats, or likely to be infested, so that all may take common action. That is the principle upon which lately the voluntary campaign against rats has been carried on in some districts with great success. In other districts, owing to lack of collaboration, there has been a signal failure. I think the noble Lord will agree that where you can get combined action in destroying rats over a given area it is far more likely to be successful than if one set of premises only is dealt with at a time. With that object I move the Amendment that stands in my name.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 1, after ("Act") insert ("or that its district or any area thereof is infested or likely to become infested with rats or mice").—(Lord Bledisloe.)

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

I am in agreement with my noble friend as regards the principle of dealing with areas. The three Amendments by which he seeks to make his point are intended to raise the question of collective action over a considerable area. I think that the wording which he suggests is objectionable, because it involves the service of notice on every occupier, without exception, in the district. The local authority can, without any amendment to the Bill, serve notice on any number of occupiers, and I think it would be objectionable to make it incumbent upon them to serve notice upon everybody where they are of opinion that the area is "likely to become infested with rats or mice." That is a very difficult point to determine. While I am in entire agreement with the general principle, I have come to the conclusion that it would be better if we dealt with this matter by amendment to the existing Bill, and that it should be done in the form of a new clause which could be introduced on Report and in which it would be stated clearly that the local authorities shall have regard to the desirability of combined action in this matter. I prefer to proceed in that way, if my noble friend agrees, rather than to impose a statutory obligation to serve notice upon every occupier in the district.

LORD BLEDISLOE

I think the noble Lord has met me in a most reasonable way, and subject, of course, to seeing the actual wording of this proposed new clause. I am prepared to withdraw the Amendments dealing with this specific subject.

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

That applies to the first three Amendments.

LORD BLEDISLOE

Yes.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

I did not want to press my noble friend further than I said. As regards the Amendment in subsection (1), after "requiring him to take such steps," to insert "as are prescribed in the Notice," I am quite willing to accept that.

LORD BLEDISLOE

I should like to move that, as it is only fair to the occupier.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 2, after ("steps"), insert ("as are prescribed in the Notice").—(Lord Bledisloe.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 3, leave out ("in the Notice") and insert ("therein").—(Lord Bledisloe.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD BLEDISLOE moved, before "expenses" towards the end of subsection (1), to insert "reasonable."

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 8, after ("any") insert ("reasonable").—(Lord Bledisloe.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD BLEDISLOE moved, at the beginning of subsection (2), to insert "A sanitary inspector or an inspector of nuisances or." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is taken from the Bill which was introduced in this House in the summer by Lord Aberconway, who made it one of the duties of the sanitary inspector or the inspector of nuisances, or, as he states in another place, of the county agricultural committee, to initiate proceedings for the extermination of rats. I suggest that in this particular Bill it is not made quite clear. who is to set in motion the machinery of the Bill, and it is for that reason that I move this Amendment. I am desirous, particularly in country districts, that the county agricultural committee, as it would be called in future, should take action, and in the urban and semi-urban districts the inspector of nuisances.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 10, at beginning insert ("A sanitary inspector or an inspector of nuisances or").—(Lord Bledisloe.)

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

I hope that my noble friend will not press this particular Amendment. As a matter of fact, I believe there is no such authority in existence legally as a sanitary inspector. I believe it is merely a common expression in use for an inspector of nuisances. That in itself would make the Amendment undesirable. But inspectors of nuisances have already certain powers of entry, subject to their receiving in most cases some kind of authorisation. Where the local authority under the Act has an inspector of nuisances, which is not the case with the county council, the local authority can, of course, give him the necessary authority already, and therefore the Amendment in that direction becomes unnecessary. With regard to county councils and the agricultural committees thereof, it is obvious that they will have to institute in connection with the administration of the Bill some special officer—a rat officer we will say—who will deal with this matter. That is an administrative matter of which the Board will take note, and the necessary instructions will be sent to deal with it. The Amendment would not meet my noble friend's point, and I would ask him not to press it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD BLEDISLOE moved in subsection (2), after "person" where that word first occurs, to insert "specially." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is of some importance, especially in view of what the noble Lord has just said. It is, of course, quite true that several local authorities to-day have specially appointed persons whom they call rat inspectors. There is such a person appointed in Suffolk, for instance, and, I think, in Sussex and several other counties; but when the provisions of the Defence of the Realm Act come to an end, as I fancy they will very soon, all these appointments will, I understand, be terminated. This Amendment is intended to authorise those authorities to continue the appointment of such persons, and also to secure their appointment in such counties where they have not hitherto been appointed—persons having, of course, some real knowledge on this particular subject, which is not one on which most people are well informed.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 10, after ("person") insert ("specially").—(Lord Bledisloe.)

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

I am afraid that the object which my noble friend has in view would not be effected by the insertion of this word. It would not guarantee the appointment of some officer who would be charged with this special duty. The effect of inserting the word would be, I am informed, to raise the question as to whether the authority would not require in each case to specify the particular piece of land on which entry is authorised, which I am sure is not my noble friend's intention, nor would it be desirable. This is a matter on which I would hesitate to express a personal opinion, but I am assured on high legal authority that that would be the effect of the word.

LORD BLEDISLOE

Perhaps I might consider this point in consultation with the noble Lords legal authorities, and see whether on Report something might be introduced.

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

I wish you would.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD BLEDISLOE moved in subsection (2), after "authority" ["may enter any land in the district of such local authority"], to insert "whether suspected of being infested with rats or mice or not." The noble Lord said: This is to enable the whole question of the problem of rat destruction to be dealt with in a systematic way. If this person specially authorised by the local authority is only allowed to visit premises which are known to be infested, it seems to me that nothing effective will be done. He ought, in my judgment, to be allowed to visit—as under the Defence of the Realm Act he can visit to-day—any premises in order to find out whether this pest exists.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 13, after ("authority") insert. ("whether suspected of being infested with rats or mice or not").—(Lord Bledisloe.)

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

I am informed that these words would have no effect, because premises must be either suspected of being infested with rats or not. That appears to me to cover all cases. If my noble friend thinks that the words would have any moral effect I have no desire to resist them, but I believe they would be meaningless in law.

LORD BLEDISLOE

I do not desire to insert anything that would be meaningless. Perhaps this also might be held over until the Report stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5 agreed to.

LORD BLEDISLOE moved, after Clause 5, to insert the following new clause—

Recommendations to a local authority.

6. A local authority, in the exercise of the powers conferred by this Act, shall have regard to any recommendations which may be made to them in England and Wales by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries or a county agricultural committee acting in the area of the local authority and in Scotland by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland or a district agricultural executive committee acting in the area of the local authority.

The noble Lord said: This Amendment is merely transferring into this Bill what I believe to be one of the most valuable clauses of the Bill introduced into your Lordships' House by Lord Aberconway earlier in the session. When the war agricultural committees cease to have the powers which they have had during the war, they will under this Amendment be able to take the steps which they are taking at the present time for more efficient cultivation, for the destruction of pests, and for the preservation of food, and, so far as they ought to be perpetuated, we shall preserve the powers the value of which I think was recognised when Lord Aberconway introduced this as part of his Bill.

Amendment moved— Insert the said new clause.—(Lord Bledisloe.)

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

I should be very pleased to accept the first part of my noble friend's Amendment down to the word "Fisheries" inclusive. But with regard to the latter part, the county agricultural committee is, after all, a committee of the county council, and it seems rather irregular that we should lay it down that it should receive and act on the recommendations of its own committee—which, I assume, it would be doing in any case.

LORD BLEDISLOE

With all deference I Would point out that this Amendment would apply when the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries Bill, now under discussion in another place, becomes an Act of Parliament. Under that Bill there will come into existence what is therein called the county agricultural authority, or county agricultural committee, which is a composite committee composed only in part of the members of the county council, and which will receive instructions from the Board of Agriculture. That being so, I should have thought it was a sufficiently distinct administrative entity to justify the powers which I suggest here.

LORD ERNLE

We are always told that mice desert falling houses and that rats desert sinking ships. I hope the necessity for this Bill is a proof of the stability of agriculture. But in this particular Amendment I very much hope that the words "or a county agricultural committee acting in the area of the local authority" will not be added. Supposing that the county agricultural committee issued recommendations which were contrary to those issued by the Board of Agriculture a very awkward conflict of jurisdiction would be established, and I do not think it is at all desirable that such a state of things should be rendered possible. I should welcome the first part of the proposed new clause down to the word "Fisheries," although I myself think that after the high respect the noble Lord has already expressed towards local authorities generally they would have regard to recommendations without inserting this clause in the Bill.

LORD BLEDISLOE

I see no particular virtue in this clause, which I have taken from Lord Aberconway's Bill, unless the words desired to be omitted are left in. In the circumstances I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM moved to insert the following new clause—

Prosecutions.

A prosecution for an offence under this Act shall not be instituted except by or with the authority of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries or the local authority. Provided that this section shall not apply to Scotland.

The noble Lord said: This Amendment is to meet a criticism which has been made in another place and outside that there might be some form of persecution—spite—in proceeding against individuals, and that it would be asking for trouble to place it in the hands of individuals to apply for summonses against their neighbours. It was promised in the other House that this point would be reconsidered when the matter came before your Lordships' House, and it is in pursuance of that claim that I have put this suggested new clause on the Paper. I hope it will be accepted.

Amendment moved— Insert the said new clause.—(Lord Lee of Fareham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 6:

Interpetation.

6. In this Act—

LORD BLEDISLOE moved, before the word "sewer" to insert "cellar."

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 2, after ("any") insert ("cellar").—(Lord Bledisloe.)

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

I accept the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD BLEDISLOE moved, at the end of the clause, to insert "or under" before "land."

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 3, after ("in") insert ("or under").—(Lord Bledisloe.)

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

I accept this Amendment also.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 7:

Application to Scotland.

7.—(1) This Act shall apply to Scotland with the following modifications:—

  1. (a) The Board of Agriculture for Scotland shall be substituted for the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries:
  2. (b) The section of this Act relating to the enforcement of the Act shall not apply, and in lieu thereof the following provisions shall have effect:—
    1. (i) The local authority for executing and enforcing this Act shall be the local authority under the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897: Provided that where a port local authority has been constituted under the said Act, the local authority for executing and enforcing this Act, within the district over which such port local authority has jurisdiction shall be the port local authority;
    2. (ii) The expenses incurred by any local authority under this Act shall be defrayed in like manner as expenses incurred by a local authority under the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897.

Application to Ireland.

(2) This Act shall apply to Ireland with the following modifications:—

  1. (a) Any reference to the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall be construed as a reference to the Local Government Board for Ireland:
  2. (b) Subject to the exercise of the powers of delegation given to a county council by this Act, the local authorities for the purposes of this Act shall be, as respects so much of any administrative county or county borough as is not included in a port sanitary district, the council of the county or borough, and as respects any port sanitary district the port sanitary authority:
  3. (c) The expenses incurred by a local authority under this Act shall be defrayed, in the case of a county council, out of the poor rate as a county at large charge; in the case of a port sanitary authority as part of their expenses as such authority; and in the case of any other local authority as expenses incurred in the execution of the Public Health (Ireland) Acts, 1878 to 1917.

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

I move, at the end of Clause 7, to leave out"1917" and insert "1919." This Amendment is merely drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 4, leave out ("1917") and insert ("1919").—(Lord Lee of Fareham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 8 and 9 agreed to.

Clause 10:

Short title.

10. This Act, may be cited as the Rats and Mice (Destruction) Act, 1919.

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM moved to add to the clause the words "and shall come into operation on the first day of January nineteen hundred and twenty." The noble Lord said: The procedure under the new Act is somewhat different from that now in force under the various Orders, and as it will take some little time for the local authorities to make their arrangements it has been thought better that the existing arrangement should continue for the coming mouth.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 12, at end insert ("and shall come into operation on the first day of January nineteen hundred and twenty").—(Lord Lee of Fareham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.