Lords Sitting of 5 November 1919

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
EARL BEATTY.
Admiral of the Fleet Sir David Beatty, G.C.B., O.M., G.C.V.O., D.S.O., having been created Baron BEATTY of the NORTH SEA and of BROOKSBY in the County of Leicester, Viscount BORODALE of WEXFORD in the County of Wexford, and Earl BEATTY—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
LORD RAWLINSON.
General Sir Henry Seymour Rawlinson, G.C.B., G.C.V.O., K.C.M.G., having been created Baron RAWLINSON of TRENT, in the County of Dorset—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
LORD BYNG OF VIMY.
General the Honourable Sir Julian Hed worth George Byng, G.C.B., K.C.M.G., M.V.O., having been created Baron BYNG of VIMY, and of Thorpe-le-Soken in the County of Essex—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
LORD RUTHVEN OF GOWRIE.
Lord Ruthven of Freeland, having been created Baron RUTHVEN of GOWRIE, in the County of Perth —Was (in the usual manner) introduced.

HIGH PRICES AND PAPER CURRENCY.
LORD D'ABERNON LORD D'ABERNON had the following Notice on the Paper—
To ask His Majesty's Government to present a Return showing the amount of paper money in circulation in each of the principal countries of the world in August 1914 at the outbreak of war, in November 1918 at the date of the Armistice, and now.
Further, to present a statement enabling a comparison to be made between the increase of paper money in each country and the rise of prices of the
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principal consumable commodities in that country.
Further, to present a statement showing how far the rise or fall of exchange on London in each of the principal countries of the world compared with 1914 corresponded with the increase of paper currency in each particular country compared with the increase of paper currency in Great Britain.
Further, to present a statement showing the increase or decrease of the total world production of the principal consumable commodities, comparing the last available figures with the amounts produced in 1918, 1914, and 1913, and enabling a comparison to be made for each period between the decrease of world production of commodities and the increase of world production of paper currency.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, since putting down these Questions I have been in communication with the department of the Board of Trade which is charged by the Supreme Economic Council with the preparation of their monthly statistics, and I understand that the figures for which I have asked can in the main be furnished without long delay. I therefore think that it is preferable to postpone a full debate on this subject until your Lordships are in possession of the data asked for.
It may, however, be convenient if I state the matters on which I seek information, which information, I think, ought to be discussed by your Lordships. They are as follows—Are current prices (from which we are all suffering) due in the main to a shortage of production of commodities and crops or to any other cause, and, if they are due to another cause, are the high prices mainly due to the enormous issues of paper currency which have been made throughout the world? The second question is whether the rate of exchange between various countries is mainly due to the redundancy of currency in those countries or to the balance of trade between them? The third question is whether the rise of prices in various countries is in any way dependent upon the increase of their indebtedness, whether in the form of a permanent debt or of a floating debt?
It is obvious that these are questions of very great difficulty, but the whole economic future of the world depends on the right answers being given, and I think they

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are questions worthy of the fullest debate in your Lordships' House. If, therefore, the Government are in a position to promise the data for which I ask, I would suggest that a full debate on the subject should be postponed until the House is in possession of the figures.
LORD BUCKMASTER: My Lords, I certainly do not rise for the purpose of promoting debate upon this question at this moment, but merely for the purpose of expressing my appreciation of the service rendered by the noble Lord in calling your Lordships' attention to this matter, and to express my hope that at the earliest moment he will place before the House some subject for debate upon which the whole question can be thoroughly discussed. It is no use attempting to minimise the importance of this matter; it lies, as I believe, at the very root of the whole of our industrial trouble and distress at the present moment; and unless and until we have achieved some means by which we can stem the torrent of paper that is pouring into our circulation we shall never be able to reduce the prices which are one of the chief causes of industrial difficulty, nor shall we be able to return to the sane finance upon which alone I believe the future of this country depends.
LORD SOMERLEYTON: My Lords, I think that the answer I can give to the noble Lord who has put these Questions to-day is one which will be satisfactory to him, and, I trust, satisfactory also to others of your Lordships. His Majesty's Government are already in possession of a considerable part of the information required, and instructions have been given that this information should be made as complete as possible and presented to the House with the least delay.
I am very glad that the noble Lord has asked these Questions, and the replies will show that the Government, and the Board of Trade in particular, have already prepared most of the information required. In September and last week bulletins on this matter were published. In these days when so many publications take place it is not infrequent that they escape the notice even of those who are most deeply interested in the subjects involved. A further bulletin dealing with these statistics has been published, and others will follow. As was stated by the noble Lord, these statistics are published by the
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Supreme Economic Council. Fully to meet the desires of the noble Lord, much more information than is at present obtainable on the world's production of the principal consumable commodities will be required. This information it is at present impossible to obtain, but the fullest statistics possible shall be made available, and as time goes on and more information is obtained more can be made known. Various countries are still behindhand in supplying details required, and more time in this matter is, therefore, unavoidable.
I believe that the noble Lord will be satisfied that the Board of Trade are giving all the facts they can today supply, and that their earliest desire is to conceal nothing of interest. I understood that the noble Lord wished to know whether the Tables would include a comparison between price movements and the National Debts in various countries. The answer to that is in the affirmative. They shall include such comparisons, and the Board of Trade will gladly supply such Tables as can be of use for this purpose. With regard to what fell from the noble Lord opposite, Lord Buckmaster, these matters concern the Treasury more largely than the Board of Trade as being a question of policy rather than the carrying out of a policy. I have no doubt if, on a later opportunity, this matter is raised, the fullest discussion can take place.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I do not know whether I might ask the noble Lord how soon the information he foreshadows will be in our possession. I quite realise that the matters are very difficult and intricate and may require a little time, but the state of things is very urgent indeed, and we are anxious to get as much information as we can so that for the discussion in your Lordships' House your Lordships may be fully equipped with information before it takes place. I would venture, therefore, to ask whether the noble Lord can give us any idea as to the time when the Paper will be laid.
LORD SOMERLEYTON: As the matter depends rather on the information obtainable from foreign countries, it is difficult for us to say now the exact date when it can be obtained, but what is now available shall be presented to the House within a week from today. No effort shall be spared to give the fullest information to your Lordships' House.

MILK PRICES.
LORD STRACHIE: My Lords, I beg to ask the noble Earl the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster the Questions standing in my name on the Paper—namely, What is the amount received by the Ministry of Food from the four western counties by the deduction of 2d. on the gallon of milk exported from those counties up to the time the deduction ceased; what is the amount up to date of such deduction which has not been paid, but which the Law Officers can be enforced, and if the Ministry of Food are taking or intend to take steps to enforce the payment of such amount; and when payment is made, how does the Ministry propose to apply this large sum.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (THE EARL OF CRAWFORD): My Lords, the total amount received up to the present by the Ministry of Food in respect of the sums of 2d. per gallon charged in the summer months for milk produced in the four south-western counties, which was exported from those counties and utilised in the manufacture of milk products, is £31,901. The total amount due is estimated at £240,000, leaving a balance of £208,099 still outstanding. The Law Officers of the Crown having given their opinion that the collection of this sum is within the powers given to the Food Controller under the Defence of the Realm Regulations, the Ministry of Food, as a test case, is taking action against the Wilts United Dairies, Ltd., for the recovery of the amount due on milk imported by them from the four south-western counties. In view of this position the amount which has already been received has not yet been applied, but is credited to a special fund which will be used for the future reduction of the price of milk production to the general public. The precise application of the fund has not yet been determined, but I can assure the noble Lord that no part of it will be spent directly or indirectly in foreign countries.

PRIVATE BILLS.
[From Minutes of November 4.]
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill:
Water Provisional Order.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

CANNOCK URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The Order made on Tuesday last discharged, and Bill committed.
GOSPORT AND ALVERSTOKE URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
AMMANFORD GAS BILL.
The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bills was withdrawn: The Orders made on Thursday last discharged, and Bills committed.

SWINTON AND MEXBOROUGH GAS BOARD BILL.
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, no parties having appeared in opposition thereto; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The Orders made on the 30th of July and the 28th of October last discharged, and Bill committed.

MANCHESTER CORPORATION BILL.
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bill; (viz.),

E. Eldon.

L. Kintore (E. Kintore) (Chairman),

L. Nunburnholme,

L. Armaghdale,

L. Wyfold;

agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly: The Committee to meet on Tuesday the 18th instant, at eleven o'clock; and all Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bill to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bill.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, there is no business on the Paper for tomorrow, and I suggest that to meet the convenience of your Lordships we should adjourn, except so far as judicial business is concerned, until Tuesday next.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at twenty five minutes before five o'lock.