Lords Sitting of 6 May 1919

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Several Lords—Took the Oath.

SCOTTISH BOARD OF HEALTH BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD STANMORE: My Lords, the principal object of this Bill is to set up a central Department to deal with matters concerning public health in Scotland. If your Lordships will refer to Clause 4, you will see how many different authorities are now dealing with the question of public health in that country. The Local Government Board for Scotland, the Scottish Insurance Commissioners, the Privy Council, the Scottish Education Department, the Highlands and Islands Board, and the Secretary for Scotland are all concerned in one form or another with this same question. Last week my noble friend Lord Sandhurst, in moving the Second Reading of the Ministry of Health Bill, pointed out very clearly and convincingly the considerations which render it desirable that all authorities concerned with public health should be administered by one central Department. About this there was, I think, no difference of opinion among your Lordships; in fact, I do not suppose that circumstances admit of any. I will therefore not enlarge on this matter, but attempt briefly to explain the principal clauses of this Bill.
Clauses 1 and 2 provide for the appointment of a Board, and indicate its powers and duties in relation to health; and also provide for the collection, preparation, and publication of information and statistics, and the training of persons for health services. Clause 3 deals with the composition of the Board. The first subsection sanctions the appointment of a Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health, who is to be responsible under the Secretary for Scotland for the administration of the new Board. The Secretary for Scotland will be President of the Board, and the new Under-Secretary will be Vice-President.
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The number of members will not exceed six (in addition to these two ex-officio members), and these six shall at all times include two registered medical practitioners, one or more women, and a member of the Faculty of Advocates or law agent of not less than ten years' standing. The Secretary for Scotland will designate the member who is to be chairman of the Board in the absence of the President and the Vice-President. The Local Government Board for Scotland, at present the main authority for health, to-day consists of three appointed members, of whom one must be a medical man and another an advocate, and also three ex-officio members—the Secretary for Scotland, the Solicitor-General for Scotland, and the Permanent Under-Secretary; and the proposal is that, as at first constituted, time new Board shall include the three appointed members of the Local Government Board and also two out of the four insurance Commissioners, these two to be nominated by the Secretary for Scotland, and the sixth member will probably be a woman. Noble Lords will have noticed that in future the legal member may be chosen from either branch of the legal profession.
Clause 4 is another important clause, and deals with the powers of the new Board. It is proposed to transfer to this Board forthwith all the powers and duties of the Local Government Board for Scotland, of the Scottish Insurance Commissioners, of the Privy Council under the Midwives (Scotland) Act., of the Scottish Board of Education with respect to the medical inspection and treatment of children awl young persons, of the Highlands and Islands (Medical Service) Board, and also certain powers and duties of the Secretary for Scotland under the Alkali Act, the Burial Grounds Act, the Rivers Pollution Prevention Act, the Births, Deaths, and Marriages Acts, and the Vaccination Acts. I have just mentioned the Highlands and Islands Board; and as it is one of those bodies whose powers and duties, in pursuance of the policy of unification, are to be transferred to the Board of Health, I should like to take this opportunity of expressing on behalf of the Government their appreciation of the important services which have been rendered by the Board since its constitution in 1913. In spite of the fact that its activities have been seriously hampered by war conditions, especially in the matter of adequate medical and nursing services,

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the Board, under the chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Forteviot, has done very valuable work, and various schemes which my noble friend and his colleagues have worked out will prove to be of lasting value towards the solution of the problem of alleviating and preventing sickness and suffering in these districts.
In subsection (2) of Clause 4 provision is also made for transfer to the Board from time to time, by Order in Council, of the powers and duties of the Secretary for Scotland under the Lunacy and Mental Deficiency Act, and the powers and duties of the Minister of Pensions with respect to the health of disabled officers and men after they have left the Service. These transfers will no doubt be made later but cannot conveniently be made at the present moment. Subsection (3), which is similar to a provision in the English Act, is inserted in anticipation of a revision of the Poor Law. The subsection makes it possible to transfer to other Government Departments such of the powers and duties of the Board as relate to the relief of the poor and not to the health of the people, and which would be more conveniently exercised by such other Departments.
There is only one other clause calling for special notice, and that is Clause 5, which establishes Consultative Councils for advising and assisting the Board. These Councils, which will be on the same lines as the Consultative Councils in the English Bill, will include both men and women and will consist of persons having practical experience in matters relating to health. In constituting the Councils due regard is to be had to any special interests which may be involved, such as those of local authorities and of labour. The reforms inaugurated by this Bill are both important and urgent, and I hope that your Lordships will consent to give the Bill a second reading.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Stanmore.)
THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR: My Lords, I followed very closely and very easily the clear statement of the noble Lord with regard to the duties of the new Board under this Bill, but there was one item of which I did not quite catch the significance. In explaining Clause 3 the noble Lord mentioned that one of the six members alluded to, other than the ex-officio members, would probably be a
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woman. Well, that is a hopeful utterance. But perhaps by the Committee stage we shall have something more definite as to whether it is an enacting element or merely a possibility.
LORD STANMORE: As I stated earlier, at least one must be a woman.
THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR: That is of the official members?
LORD STANMORE: Of the six non-official members.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I am not going to say very much, because I cordially concur, for what my opinion is worth, in the general policy outlined in the Bill. There are, however, one or two things in it which I do not understand. I think that the idea of having a Central Board primarily concerned with all things relating to the health of the people has been generally well received in Scotland, and the noble Lord in charge of the Bill has explained its purport and object; and taken in connection with the English Bill which was read a second time last week, I do not know that there is any real field for discussion on principles.
But, my Lords, there is one most extraordinary provision which was incidentally referred to by the noble Lord at the end of his speech, and I do not understand what to make of it. It is part of subsection (3) of Clause 4, and if your Lordships have not read it I think it would be interesting to study its wording. The second paragraph of the subsection runs—
"And it is hereby declared that it is the intention of this Act that, in the event of provision being made by Act of Parliament passed in the present or in any future Session for the revision of the law relating to the relief of the poor in Scotland and the distribution amongst other authorities of any powers exerciseable by parish councils, there shall be transferred from the Board to other Government departments such of the powers and duties under tie enactments relating to the relief of the poor then vested in the Board (not being powers or duties relating or incidental to the health of the people) as appear to His Majesty to be such as would be more conveniently exercised and performed by such other departments."
What is the object of this provision? Is it a pious opinion or is it a preamble inserted in the middle of the Bill? What object is there in giving the force of an Act of Parliament to what is said to be "the

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intention" of the Government? Even as it stands, to what does it commit us? Does it commit us to all the intentions of the Government? Shall we be held to be committed to them by having passed this clause in anticipation? Why are all these powers and duties relating to the health of the people specially exempted front transference, when this Bill is really for the health of the people and nothing else? I am bound to say that a more confused clause and one inert, difficult to understand I have never seen in any Act of Parliament, and I hope that in the Committee stage we shall have some explanation of it.
There is only one other matter to which I want to refer, and that is, I frankly admit, purely a Committee point. This Bill is avowedly connected with the health of the people, and if your Lordships will refer to Clause 5, subsection (1), you will see that "such matters affecting or incidental to the health of the people in Scotland" may be transferred. I venture to suggest that it would be an improvement if such things as housing and sanitation were specially mentioned. I know that this has caused a certain amount of heart-searching in Scotland. I have had a number of letters from those interested in repairing and plumbing trades asking why sanitation has, apparently, been overlooked, and a copy has been sent me of the letter forwarded to the Secretary for Scotland, which will, no doubt, be in the possession of the noble Lord in charge of the Bill, and will serve to indicate the points that may be raised when we come to the Committee stage.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, this Bill follows the principle which has been adopted for the purpose of the English Bill, and that follows the principle of the Committee which was presided over by a distinguished Scottish Member, Sir Donald Maclean, and I think it answers some of the criticisms made by the noble Lord who has just sat down. The principle of the Bill is to define a single service and to transfer to those who are executing it all the powers that are appropriate to that service. That is a very simple principle.
Let me take an illustration from what was said by Lord Balfour of Burleigh. It is quite true that there is in the Bill a provision which says that if it; turns out that the functions of the Departments whose activities are transferred to the
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new Board in Scotland do not relate to health they may be allocated to other Departments to be dealt with appropriately. That is not only proper but necessary. Take the case of the Poor Law. There is a large part of the Poor Law concerned with health, and there is also a part of it which is concerned with tramps and vagrants and the administration of justice. As I read the clause—which is analogous to the clause in the English Bill—that is meant by the subsection to which the noble Lord referred is that when the powers of the Local Government Board are transferred en bloc to the body which is to take its place, it should be possible to re-transfer to whatever Departments deal with them those things that have nothing to do with health at all and could not be usefully dealt with by a Health Ministry. Conversely, in the case of sanitation, as I read the Bill, all the powers of the Local Government Board are transferred, with exceptions with which I need not deal. I presume that covers sanitation, but I do not know. If so, these things are properly transferred. Doubtless the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading of the Bill will resolve any doubts that may be raised about these things in Committee.
There are other parts which I think deserve attention for a moment. The Bill differs altogether from the English Bill in this respect. The English Bill sets up a Ministry of Health; this Bill does not. This Bill leaves it to the Secretary for Scotland to net through a Board of which he is to be President. That is right enough, for a good reason. Parliamentary Ministers cannot be always in Scotland. They must be here; therefore, the scheme of Scottish government is that many functions of the Secretary for Scotland are performed by Boards over which he presides bat the members of which are in Edinburgh.
Now I come to what is, I think, a rather doubtful provision in the Bill. This Board is to be presided over by a new Parliamentary Under-Secretary. I have great misgivings about the constitution of new Parliamentary Ministers. Still, if yon can had an ideal man who can remain in Scotland, it might be a good provision. But consider what is to happen? Somebody who can stay in the House of Commons, a Scottish Member whose duties take him to Westminster, will be the Vice-President who will preside over this

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Board. Well, he will not have time or opportunity to attend to the details of the business, and it is to the details that you have to look for efficient administration in a case like this. Consequently, I doubt very much whether the Bill will be the better for the presence of that Under-Secretary. If there is an ideal man in view of the Government among the Scottish Members, who is patriotic enough to prefer the health of his countrymen beyond the Tweed to the glories of Westminster, you will do very well; but whether there is such a man, my past experience of the way in which selections for appointments are made leads me to doubt; and I am not at all sure whether it is a good provision to make a new Minister for Scotland—an Under-Secretary who is to preside over this Board.
Another point was raised by Lord Aberdeen. Women are to sit on the Board. That is quite right. But I observe no clause which says that, in making appointments to the staff of the new Ministry, there is to be an absence of discrimination on the ground of sex. We bad the question before the House the other day on the English Bill. In the English Bill such a clause was inserted in the other House, in Grand Committee, but it was promptly struck out, not by the Ministry of Health, not by Dr. Addison, but on the Motion of the Secretary to the Treasury. I took exception to that, and I have put down an Amendment—I think that Lord Selborne has put down another—endeavouring to restore the principle which the Bill had, not that women are necessarily to be appointed or that people are to be appointed because they are women, but that people are not to be refused appointment because they are women. I should like to see a similar clause here. The noble Lord will doubtless ascertain from the Lord Chamberlain, who sits next him and who is in charge of the English Bill, whether the Government are going to meet us, when that Bill conies up in Committee on Thursday, upon a matter about which we feel strongly. If so, I assume that the decision in the English case will govern the introduction of that clause into this Bill.
Subject to these things, I think this is a very good Bill which follows out a principle and has the great merit that it takes the work of the Maclean Committee and resolves the Poor Law into its constituent elements. Tramps and vagrants
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will be dealt with by those people who I should deal with them. I am sure that Lord Balfour does not wish them transferred to the Ministry of Health. On the other hand, it brings all the scattered elements of the Poor Law relating to health into the single service which the Bill establishes, and in that way carries out the principle which was produced by the Government on the recommendation of Sir Donald Maclean's Committee. On the other points I have made the observations which occur to me, and we shall, if the Committee stage be not too soon, hear of points of detail on which further questions will have to be raised.
LORD FORTEVIOT: My Lords, the noble Lord who introduced the Bill made a kind and generous reference to the Board over which I had the honour to preside, and while I take the opportunity of thanking him on behalf of that Board for what he said, there are one or two things in connection with its work that are germane to this Bill to which I should like to draw attention. I want to extend a very hearty welcome to the Bill, not so much on account of the Bill itself as that it opens the way for a more vigorous and more scientific treatment of public health in Scotland. The Bill does not do much more than co-ordinate the present services; but if it, does that, it does something which is very necessary and very much needed.
The present condition of the medical service of Scotland is absolutely chaotic. It is best illustrated by the well-known case of the Scottish family. The husband and father was an insured person and his medical necessities were attended to by the Insurance Commissioners. The wife was an ordinary patient of the medical man. The children were inspected and attended to by the medical officer under the control of the Education Department. The grandfather and grandmother also lived in the house. One of them was an old-age pensioner, whose medical man was the parish officer under the control of the parish council; the other was a pauper lunatic who was under the control of the. Board of Control; and last of all, one of the children was suffering from a notifiable disease, and his medical man was the medical officer of health for the district. Any system which permits a condition of affairs of that kind is indeed in need of reform.

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I want especially to draw attention to an aspect of public health in Scotland which does not obtain in any other part of the United Kingdom. A similar condition of affairs did perhaps exist in some parts of Ireland, but up to the year 1912 at least the Government had done far more for Ireland than for Scotland to help to put it right. I refer to the public health conditions of the Highlands and Islands, and I desire an assurance from the Government that the pressing necessities of their case will not be lost sight of or overshadowed by the larger national question. Lord Balfour of Burleigh mentioned that perhaps one of the most pressing matters connected with public health is that of the holies of the people, and I should like to show how little has been done in this Bill, or in any other Bill, to meet the housing conditions in the Islands of Scotland, or by the Bill discussed yesterday in another place, which can have no effect in the Island of Lewis. In a large area, in the Western Hebrides, housing is of the most deplorable description. The houses are of the most primitive kind, and. very little better than the cave dwellings of primitive man. How can these conditions be dealt with under this Bill or under the Bill which was introduced yesterday in another place? They cannot; for this reason. The householders in the Hebrides hold their houses and land under quite a different tenure, and the local authority there cannot be called upon (as they can be in other parts of Scotland) to act, because their resources are exhausted. The public health rate has long been exhausted in the Island of Lewis, and in the other parishes the rates are 14 s., 15 s., and in one case 19 s. in the £. It is a very pressing question, and ought to be taken up and settled without any unnecessary delay.
I want also to refer to the medical and nursing services in the Highlands and Islands, which came under the control of the Board to which the noble Lord referred. Attention was drawn to the condition of these services by the Insurance Act of 1911, and in.1912 a Committee was appointed to consider how far the medical and nursing services were inadequate. This Committee reported that the services were quite inadequate, and the evidence published was of the most startling kind. It was found, for instance, that in large areas a doctor was never present at a birth, and that a supply of maternity nurses did not exist. In one parish of 4,000 inhabitants there
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was one old woman, nearly eighty years of age, who attended for payment, and she had never been properly trained. The only assistance was got from neighbouring wives. One doctor described this as a great social danger. In many isolated cases the only help that was given was rendered by the husband, and it is not surprising that in many cases whore there was any complication neither the mother nor the child had a chance. Nor is it surprising that puerperal fever and other similar diseases were common, and that there was a great deal of suffering and illness which alight have been prevented.
Thee medical and nursing attendance in ordinary cases was no better. A considerable proportion of the population live from twenty to twenty-five miles from the nearest doctor's house. The country is rugged, sometimes almost roadless, and the weather conditions often make travel very difficult. Besides this, the income of the doctor was so small and so precarious that he very often was not able to provide the best means of transit. Under these conditions the cost of medical aid must obviously be high, and, however reasonable, must in the majority of cases be prohibitive. It is very instructive to note that while the average of uncertified deaths all over Scotland is 2 per cent., or rather under that figure, in the Highland parishes it ranges from 17 per cent. to 80 per cent., and one case was produced of a parish where there were nine deaths one year, and twelve deaths another year, and not, one was seen by a doctor. That was the condition of affairs when the Board to which reference has been made was appointed, and £33,000 a year was granted to help to put things right, with £10,000 additional for insured persons.
What I am most anxious to get is an assurance from the Government that the work which this Board began—it was meant to be a temporary Board and has now been abolished—will not be interrupted, and that the schemes which it had prepared will be carried out. Noble Lords will be interested to know that it has been able to enter into agreements with almost all the doctors in the Highlands whereby a patient, wherever he is, no matter whether he is twenty miles from the doctor, will receive medical attendance at a fee not exceeding 5s. for the first visit, and 2s. 6d. for subsequent visits. That arrangement has been largely taken advantage of. The

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Board on their part undertake that the doctor shall not suffer, and that he shall be properly remunerated. The scheme is working well, and is undoubtedly fulfilling the purpose for which it was designed. I hope that it will not be interrupted, and that it will continue under the new Board of Health.
I am also specially anxious that the schemes which were designed by this Board and have not yet been put into effect owing to the war and other causes shall be proceeded with. One scheme in particular is, I think, necessary. I have referred to the housing difficulty. However unsatisfactory the houses may be for healthy people to occupy, they are quite impossible in the case of illness, and particularly for cases of a surgical kind. There is very little chance that a surgical case will have a rapid recovery when it is carried on under such septic conditions as exist in a "black house." One doctor described to the Committee how he had to conduct an operation which was absolutely necessary, and had to be done in a hurry. He used the table of the house as his operating table; he got the schoolmaster to administer chloroform, and an old crofter to hold the candle to give him light. During the operation the crofter fainted and put out the light, with the most disastrous results. To meet cases of this kind, which occur fairly frequently, and also to meet cases where a patient perhaps needs more attention from a doctor than can be given if he lives at a distance, and also to provide for maternity cases—I think the maternity cases conducted in some of these houses is an outrage to decency—the Board have designed a plan whereby in every centre where there is a nurse accommodation should be provided in the nurse's house for an additional one or two beds for patients of that kind. This scheme will be more important than almost anything else, I think, in improving the public health of the Highlands of Scotland.
There is only one other point that I wish to mention. I heard the noble Viscount, Lord Haldane, say in reference to the English Bill that the training of doctors was not a question for the Ministry of Health but should be dealt with by the Universities and the great hospitals. This is, of course, quite true. But speaking from the point of view of the Highlands, I hope that the new Board of Health in Scotland may be able to do a little more. The supply of doctors, not only during the
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pressure of the war but under ordinary circumstances, is notoriously deficient for these Highland districts. Noble Lords may be surprised to hear that under contracts with the Highlands and Islands Medical Board there are at least two Hindu doctors practising and one native of the West Indies, and that at least one Chinaman applied, but I think his appointment was not made. However competent those doctors may be—and they are all thoroughly competent men—I do not think that it can be a satisfactory arrangement either for the doctor or for the patient. Perhaps it is more unsatisfactory for the doctor than for the patient that these I gentlemen should be practising in the latitude of the Scottish Islands. One native of India has charge of the medical arrangements of one of the most northerly of the Shetland group.
In regard to nurses the case is almost more pressing. There are two classes of nurses in the Highlands, one class having from six to twelve months' training in one or other of the homes and institutions provided for them in Glasgow and elsewhere. This is a very popular nurse, as a rule. They speak the language and assist in the housework, cook the dinner, look after the children, or even milk the cow, but they have not anything like adequate training to make them efficient, especially in a district where the visit of the doctor is bound to be very infrequent. On the other hand there are the highly-trained Jubilee nurses, and it is the intention of the Highland Medical Board that all the nurses supported by them should have this qualification. After a very careful survey it was decided that it was absolutely necessary to appoint an additional 110 nurses to the area under the control of the Board, but so far only thirty-eight have been appointed, and fifteen of them are of the partially trained variety that I have described. I think everybody who knows the district will agree that it is very important that Gaelic-speaking young women should be induced to take the course which will make them fully-trained nurses. I sincerely hope that help in this matter will not be beyond the province of the Ministry of Health; indeed, I think it does come within its province, because at the end of Clause 2 of Part 3 the duties of the new Board are stated to be to assist in the training of persons for health service. I have tried to show some of the difficulties of dealing

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with public health in the Highlands, and I hope that the Government may be able to give an assurance that the necessary steps will be taken to overcome those difficulties either by the appointment of a special Department or otherwise, so that in a matter so vital to them the people in the Highlands may be put upon something like terms of equality with the population in the other part of the country.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

SOLICITORS BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD BUCKMASTER: My Lords, this is a small and unambitious, but I hope your Lordships will think a useful, measure, designed at once for the purpose of relieving the Courts of some of the work that they now undertake, and placing the effective control of the solicitors profession in the hands of members of that profession itself. I need not occupy your Lordships long in explaining the provisions of the Bill, but it is necessary that I should state what is the present system under which solicitors are controlled. Apart from the authority that is exercised by each Judge of the High Courts over a solicitor owing to the fact that the solicitor is by virtue of his office an officer of the Court and therefore amenable to the jurisdiction of the Judge, cases that relate to misconduct on the part of a solicitor are always determined by a Committee of the Incorporated Law Society appointed for that purpose. If any charge is made against a solicitor for improper behaviour in the course of his work, such charge has to be substantiated by an affidavit. Evidence is heard and taken before this Committee to which I have referred, who then make a formal report, but having made a formal report their powers end, and they can do no more. It then becomes necessary to move a Divisional Court, which is a branch of the High Court of Justice, for the purpose of determining what is the punishment that is to be inflicted upon the solicitor after he has committed any grave breach of professional duty. Punishment consists either of striking him off the rolls or of suspending him from practice. This Bill places the power
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of punishment in the hands of the tribun which has heard the complaint, and I think your Lordships will agree that that is only right.
It seems on the face of it an unreasonable arrangement that the body of solicitors who are specially selected because of their intimate knowledge of the concerns of their own work to determine whether or not a solicitor has committed a breach of his professional duty should be robbed of all power of saying what is the proper punishment that ought to be inflicted upon him by reason of the breach. The Bill preserves to any solicitor who is dealt with under its terms, should it become law, the right of appeal to the Court against the sentence; so that in fact what the: Bill does is to place in the hands of the body who hears the case power to administer punishment, and reserves to the person who is punished the right of appeal to the Court. In other words, it relieves the Court of the necessity of considering all these cases independently, and preserves to them the right of controlling any irregularity or excess in the exercise of the jurisdiction. That is the whole purpose of the Bill.
The clauses carry out one by one what I have attempted to describe. The third clause is nothing but definition. The fourth is nothing but conferring power upon the Master of the Rolls to add to the Committee of the Council a person who is a past member of the Council practising. Clause 5 explains in detail what I have attempted to make clear to your Lordships in the course of the few observations that I have made. Clause 6 gives power to the Committee to administer this. Clause 7 is merely formal, as to the Order when it is made and how it is to be signed; and Clause 8 gives the power of appeal. Clause 9 gives the Committee power, with the concurrence of the Master of the Rolls, to make the necessary rules. I know that it has been suggested that it might be better if these rules were made by the Rule Committee that regulates the present procedure in the High Court. I do not really think that there is any very great substance in the complaint, because the rules will be made with the consent of the Master of the Rolls, the Lord Chief Justice, the Lord Chancellor, and the Committee of the body, and it seems to me that that is sufficient security that the rules will be wise and just.

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That is the whole measure. I trust that I have not broken the promise that I made that I would not keep you long in explaining its provisions, and I hope that I have not exceeded the just limits of expectation in trusting that you will grant the favour of a Second Reacting to the Bill.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Buckmaster.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD BIRKENHEAD): My Lords, it may not be inconvenient that I should add an observation to what has been said by my noble and learned friend. I am of opinion that the change recommended by this Bill is both reasonable and moderate. As I understand the Bill, what it does in effect is this. It enables the Committee which is really the governing body of the solicitors' branch of the legal profession to discharge the ditties for disciplinary purposes of a Court of first instance. That right has been readily conceded to the branch of the profession to which my noble and learned friend and I belong, and is conceded also, as your Lordships know, in ample degree to the medical profession.
I have never been able to understand why the very sagacious, experienced and responsible gentlemen who are at the head of the solicitors' branch of the profession should be denied the power of dealing in the first instance with the complaints of professional misconduct which are brought against members of their own body; and, indeed, I know of no profession which could furnish from amongst its leaders a number of gentlemen more gifted in the necessary judicial qualities to take such decisions than the profession of solicitors. The matter, as my noble and learned friend has told your Lordships, is most amply safeguarded by the right of appeal which is preserved, and I believe that the reform recommended by this Bill would have the happiest results, both upon the solicitors' branch of the profession itself and also on the Law Courts by relieving congestion.
This is not the first time that this proposal has been recommended to your Lordships, but it has, unfortunately, up to the present not made any very considerable progress in another place. The solicitors' branch of the profession is not without influence elsewhere, and I, for one, hope that they will use their legitimate influence to see that on the present occasion this Bill becomes an Act.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) (SUPERANNUA- TION) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
PUBLIC HEALTH (MEDICAL TREATMENT OF CHILDREN) (IRELAND BILL.
Bill read 3a, and passed.

AGRICULTURAL RECONSTRUCTION.
LORD BLEDISLOE: My Lords, I rise to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, seeing that the work of the new Commissioners now being appointed by him as links between his Department and the county agricultural authorities will be of paramount importance in carrying out the scheme of Land Settlement and Rural Reconstruction, and that such appointees, although originally appointed as temporary officers, are bound, in the absence of misconduct or serious incompetence, to become permanent officers of the Board, he will reconsider his decision not to advertise publicly the remainder of these appointments, so that, by giving the opportunity of application to all those possessing suitable qualifications, he may secure for the public service the best men available, whether now in this country or serving with the Forces overseas.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, the noble Lord the President of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries is unable to be present this afternoon in consequence of a very important conference which he is attending at the Board of Agriculture, and therefore he has asked me to give the answer to the noble Lord's Question. Instructions were given by the President of the Board on April 30 that all new appointments, not only to Commissionerships but to sub-Commissionships, except those of a purely temporary nature, should be advertised in the public Press. This action involves no reconsideration of any previous decision.

MILK PRICES.
LORD STRACHIE LORD STRACHIE had a Notice on the Paper to move, That there be laid upon the Table of the House the evidence and recommendations of the Travelling Commission upon which the Food Controller based his Order that in the counties of Somerset, Dorset, Devon, and Cornwall, milk producers receive 2d. a gallon less for their milk than in any other counties.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, it may be in the recollection of the House that a week ago I withdrew a similar Motion at the request of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, who suggested that I should put it down again "in about a week's time." I have done so, and I also gave the noble Earl notice of the Question which stands in my name on the Paper to-day. I suppose he must have received this on Monday morning. What was my surprise on coining down to the House to receive a letter asking me to postpone for a few days my Question with regard to milk prices. I was aware that the Ministry of Food Vote was down in the House of Commons for to-day, and that a similar Question would be addressed in another place to Mr. Roberts. I imagine that the noble Earl will have no objection to my proceeding, as Mr. Roberts will be cross-examined in another place, and I take it that the noble Earl will not object to making the same statement here that the Food Controller will have to make in the House of Commons.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: I suggest that we take the Motion and the Question separately?
LORD STRACHIE: I thought the noble Earl's letter to me referred to both, because he refers to "your notice of Motion and Question." Therefore I very naturally was under the impression that the noble Earl requested me not to make my Motion with regard to the evidence and the report. I am glad, however, to think that the noble Earl did not mean that, and that it was a mistake on the part of his private secretary. Otherwise it would have been putting this House in a very curious position, and saying that the Government were prepared to say in the House of Commons what they were not prepared to say in the House of Lords.
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Now I will deal with My Motion. I cannot see why the noble Lord, Lord Ernie, objected to giving the information I ask for, and I hope (especially as it will surely have to be given in the House of Commons) that the noble Earl will now be able to consent to my Motion I cannot see any reason why we should not know upon what grounds this recommendation has been made for penalising the four counties. I know that it has been reported—I expect the noble Earl will contradict me in saying so—that tins Travelling Commission of the Ministry of Food recommended that this 2d. a gallon should be paid over to the Ministry of Food, and I am informed that in their recommendation they said that the amount thus received was to be voted to the administrative charges of the Ministry of Food. I can hardly believe that this is so, because it seems an extraordinary thing that the Travelling Commission should report that the unfortunate farmers of these four counties should forfeit this 2d. a gallon for the benefit of the Ministry of Food—presumably, as they say it is for administrative charges, to increase the pay and the salaries of those Ministers. Further, I am told that this Report recognises the difficulties of penalising the Western counties, and that the Commission are quite ready to acquiesce in a flat rate if there are difficulties in carrying out these proposals. I should think that by now the Ministry of Food recognise that there are great difficulties in carrying out this matter. Anyhow, I hope that the noble Earl is going to allow us in these four counties to know exactly and officially the grounds upon which this recommendation has been made. What was divulged to us with regard to the climatic conditions will certainly satisfy no one; they are reasons which do not hold water at all. I beg to move.
Moved, That there be laid upon the Table of the House the evidence and recommendations of the Travelling Commission upon which the Food Controller based his Order that in the counties of Somerset, Dorset, Devon, and Cornwall, milk producers receive 2d. a gallon less for their milk than in any other counties.—(Lord Strachie.)
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (THE EARL OF CRAWFORD): My Lords, in the first place I beg leave to apologise if there was any verbal mistake

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in the letter sent at my direction to the noble Lord. I do not propose to discuss the merits of this case, as Lord Strachie invites me to do. I propose to accept the Motion. But, I must repeat why I could not accept it last week. Lord Strachie asked me why I refused then. I did so because I had had no notice of the Motion. It was announced to your Lordships only in the last few words of Lord Strachie's speech, and clearly it was impossible for a representative of a Department to pledge his Department on matters of this kind without consultation. I refused because I had received no notice. Having submitted it to Mr. Roberts he accepted without the slightest demur the terms of Lord Strachie's Motion, subject to one point. I will accept the Motion as it stands provided that Lord Strachie will appreciate the fact that there was no evidence given to this Travelling Commission in the sense that evidence is given to a Railway Committee or to a Parliamentary Committee, with stenographic notes. Papers, however, shall be laid giving the recommendations of this Travelling Commission and explaining in full the grounds upon which this proposal has been put forward, and I will give them to the authorities of the House as soon as I get the necessary documents.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
LORD STRACHIE: I am obliged to Lord Crawford for accepting my Motion. I understand that he prefers to have my Question put off.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: No. I will explain.
LORD STRACHIE: I was ready, of course, to agree that it should be postponed. However, I will put it. I wish to ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he will state what amount the Ministry of Food estimates will be produced by the 2d. a gallon payable to them on milk produced in the four counties of Somerset, Dorset, Devon, and Cornwall, and exported from those counties in the form of milk, cheese, butter, cream, or other goods manufactured from milk. I suppose they must have considered that it would be some appreciable sum, because although it is true that the Travelling Commission reported that it ought to go towards administrative expenses, they
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seemed afterwards to have changed their minds. The President said, in a letter written by him later, that this amount was to go towards the reduction of milk prices throughout the country. So they must have had some idea. But if the noble Earl tells me it is impossible to make an estimate, and that they made no estimate at all, I shall be quite satisfied.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, there was no idea of disrespect to your Lordships' House in my suggesting that this Question should be put off. Lord Strachie seems to think that an announcement is going to be made about it in the House of Commons. Questions may be asked in the House of Commons just as they may be asked here. Mr. Roberts is not in a position to answer the Question to-day, and that is why I invited the noble Lord to put it off, and why, if a similar Question be asked in the House of Commons, it will there equally be postponed. The reason is that no adequate estimate can be made or need be made until a few days or weeks have passed when actual figures will give a just ground for assessing the number of these twopennies. In a week or two something concrete will be known, and if Lord Strachie cares then to put his Question down, or consult me as to putting it down, I shall be able to give him an answer based on facts.

PRIVATE BILLS.
[From, Minutes of May 1.]
BOARD OF EDUCATION SCHEME (CROSSLEY AND PORTER ORPHAN HOME AND SCHOOL) CONFIRMATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

NORTHAMPTON GAS BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the Standing

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Orders have not been complied with in respect of the Petitions for the following Bills:

Bedwellty Urban District Council.

Walsall Corporation.

Workington Corporation.

Leicester Corporation.

Swinton and Mexborough Gas Board.

Rotherham Corporation.

The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

WEST SOMERSET MINERAL RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
A Witness ordered to attend the Select Committee.
House adjourned at a quarter-past five o'clock.