HL Deb 18 March 1919 vol 33 cc714-23

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.

LORD PARMOOR

My Lords, before the Motion to go into Committee is put, I think I ought to make an explanation to your Lordships. This Bill was originally in the hands of Lord Lamington. As your Lordships are aware, he is abroad—I think he has gone to Syria on urgent public business—and he asked me in his absence to take charge of the Bill. The reason why I could not support the Bill in its original form was that in my opinion it interfered much too much with the jurisdiction of the licensing magistrates and the licensing committee; but after consideration among the various persons interested in the Bill, and after considering the criticisms made by, among others, Lord Harris, the Bill has been modified very drastically so far as that part of it is concerned. In fact, there is a proposal now to leave out all the clauses which would have in the initial stages interfered with the licensing committee or the licensing magistrates. The only proposal is that we shall have a certain board or committee from which general orders, which they could be asked to obey, should be issued. The rest of the Bill, which relates to the constitution of improved public-houses, I understood met with the consent of your Lordships on the last occasion, and it is not necessary for me to say anything more about it; but I thought that the explanation which I have given was due to your Lordships before going into Committee. I hope your Lordships will allow the Bill to go into Committee, and that it may be dealt with.

House in Committee (according to Order).

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

Appointment of Commissioners.

1. For the purpose of granting licences for the sale by retail of excisable or intoxicating liquors, and for the exercise of the other powers hereinafter referred to in this Act, it shall be lawful for His Majesty in Council from time to time to appoint Commissioners (hereinafter called "County Commissioners") with the powers and duties defined in this Act.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 1.—(Lord Parmoor.)

LORD HARRIS

I am glad to see that the promoter of the Bill and his supporters have drastically altered it, so that it is hardly recognisable as the same Bill. In those circumstances I am almost surprised that the promoters of the Bill proceed with it; but I can raise no possible objection to its proposed new form, because the quite unmerited censure of the licensing justices is, I understand, entirely withdrawn. At present as the Bill is before your Lordships it continues to have with it the explanatory Memorandum, and the Bill was based originally upon that explanatory Memorandum, which contained this very severe censure of the justices, and asserted, as an argument for the introduction of the Bill, that it was necessary to change something which the justices had been doing for many years, which I submitted to your Lordships was entirely untrue. That reason for the introduction of the Bill having been withdrawn, it might, be argued that there remains no basis upon which the Bill could be founded; but, as I said on the first occasion, I entirely agree with the policy put forward in the Bill—namely, to encourage licensees to alter the character of their houses and introduce other attrac- tions to the public besides the consumption of alcohol. I shall have a word to say as regards Clause 11, but I have no objection to the Bill as it now stands; indeed, I think that if a change is to be made at all it is reasonable to get an appeal from the licensing justices to a central body where the licensing justices have refused a licence for an improved public-house.

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE

I am very glad that Lord Harris sees his way to support the Bill in its new form. I was not altogether surprised at the criticism he advanced—that the Bill is in fact, strictly speaking, by no means the same Bill as that which we considered on the Second Reading. That is perfectly true. At the same time the principal framework—its structure—made it possible to proceed by eliminating certain clauses altogether, and therefore it was not necessary to go through the process of re-committing the Bill, which might easily have been necessary in certain other cases. I ventured to tell my noble friend Lord Lamington, when he asked that the Bill might be read a second time, that he was taking a very bold step in suggesting the complete destruction of the jurisdiction of the licensing justices without being able to produce, apparently, a large body of evidence showing that their functions had not been properly fulfilled. I have no doubt that other noble Lords made similar representations to Lord Lamington, with the result that he cheerfully consented to alter the form of the Bill in the way which your Lordships now observe. I am very glad that the noble Lord opposite agrees that the invention of a body of Commissioners, who will be able to put pressure upon any quite inert bench of justices who may be indisposed to give any effect to the provisions of the Bill, is a useful one.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2:

Areas, &c., of Commissioners' jurisdiction.

2.—(1) The County Commissioners shall exercise their powers within the counties, or groups of counties, to which they shall be appointed, and the delimitation of such county areas shall be made by His Majesty by Order in Council.

(2) To each county area there shall be appointed three Commissioners, of whom one, to act as chairman, shall be judge of one of the county court districts, or a police court or stipendiary magistrate, within the said area.

(3) There shall be paid cut of the Consolidated Fund by the Treasury to each of such Commissioners (except the chairman) remuneration at the rate of one thousand pounds a year, and to the chairman remuneration at the rate of five hundred pounds a year, which said remuneration shall be additional to their salaries as judges or magistrates: Provided that it shall be lawful for the Treasury to allow each Commissioner such sum as the Treasury shall deem needful to defray his travelling expenses.

(4) The appointments of the Commissioners shall be for such time as His Majesty in Council may deter tine, and any Commissioner may be removed by Order of the Council for inability or misbehaviour on the recommendation of the Secretary of State.

(5) There shall be allotted to each group of Commissioners such clerks and other assistants, and such office accommodation, as shall be from time to time determined by the rules to be made under this Act, and such expenses shall be paid by the Treasury in respect thereof as the Treasury, in accordance with such rules, or otherwise where not provided for in the rules, shall determine.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 2.—(Lord Parmoor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3:

Transfer of licensing authority to Commissioners.

3. The County Commissioners shall exercise all the powers hitherto exercised by licensing justices at, annual and other licensing meetings and by the confirming authorities under the Licensing (Consolidation) Act, 1910, in respect to the grant, transfer, and taking away of licences for the sale by retail of intoxicating liquors, and the grant of protection orders, & c., in respect of the same, subject to such regulations as to procedure as shall be made from time to time in the rules to be framed as hereinafter provided: and on and after a date to be determined by His Majesty by Order in Council, the powers and duties so exercised hitherto by the said justices and authorities shall cease and determine.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 3.—(Lord Parmoor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4:

Committee to frame rules.

4.—(1) So soon as convenient after the passing of this Act, the Secretary of State shall nominate a Rules Committee, consisting of five members, one of whom shall be a. judge of the High Court of Justice, one a county court judge and one a police court or stipendiary magistrate, who shall compile rules for the regulation of the procedure of the County Commissioners and any other matters concerned with the carrying into effect of the provisions of this Act, in so far as they are not specifically provided for in this Act.

(2) The rules referred to in subsection (1) shall, when framed, be submitted to His Majesty in Council, and when approved by Order in Council shall have effect as though their provisions were specifically enacted in this Act.

(3) The Rules Committee shall continue in being subject to any alterations which may be made in its membership from time to time by the Secretary of State, and it shall amend or alter or add to the rules from time to time when required so to do by Order in Council, and subject to the like confirmation and approval as in the case of the original rules.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 4.—(Lord Parmoor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 5:

"Improved public-house" certificate.

5. Where licensed premises are not merely places for the consumption of intoxicating liquors, but contain adequate provision, in view of the character of the house and the wants of the neighbourhood, for the supply of other refreshments, and are airy, commodious and comfortable, and have proper seating and sanitary accommodation, and contain provision for suitable recreation to the satisfaction of the County Commissioners, the Commissioners shall, on the application of the licence holder, when the application for the grant or renewal of the licence is heard, issue a certificate to the effect that the premises form an "improved public-house"; and thereupon, until such certificate shall have been lawfully withdrawn, such premises shall enjoy all the privileges and exemptions attaching to an improved public-house under this Act or any Act to be hereafter passed. Such certificates shall not be withdrawn except after reasonable notice to the holder thereof and to the owner of the premises, and alto' reasonable opportunity has been given to the said holder and owner to be heard in opposition to such withdrawal.

LORD PARMOOR

The first two Amendments in Clause 5 are really verbal, involved in omitting the first four clauses. Instead of leaving matters to the satisfaction of the county commissioners, as proposed, they are now left to the satisfaction of the licensing justices.

Amendments moved—

Clause 5, page 3, line 9, leave out ("to the satisfaction of the county commissioners")

Clause 5, page 3, line 10, leave out ("commissioners") and insert ("licensing justices").—(Lord Parmoor.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD PARMOOR moved the addition of a new subsection to Clause 5.The noble Lord said: This Amendment is necessary for this reason. As the Bill was originally drafted it left these matters to a central board. Now, as I have pointed out, they are left to the licensing justices. Therefore it is necessary to deal with Section 71 of the Licensing (Consolidation) Act, 1910, in order that the restrictions of that section should not interfere with the proper exercise of their jurisdiction by the licensing justices; and the new subsection, which is the present Amendment, is put in merely for that purpose.

Amendment moved—

Clause 5, page 3, line 20, at end insert as a new subsection: (2) Notwithstanding anything contained in section seventy-one of the Licensing (Consolidation) Act, 1910, the licensing justices before whom an application for an 'improved public-house' certificate is heard shall not refuse to grant such a certificate merely on the ground that alterations in the premises proposed by the applicant would give increased accommodation or facilities."—(Lord Parmoor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

LORD PARMOOR moved the insertion of a new clause. The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment is to appoint a Central Board of Commissioners, and the proposal is that it shall be lawful for His Majesty in Council from time to time to appoint five Commissioners, to be called the Central Board of Commissioners for the Control of Public Refreshment Houses, to act as an appellate tribunal on questions of fact and the exercise of judicial discretion, and to make rules for and issue instructions for the guidance of licensing justices in the granting of the improved public house certificates and matters appertaining thereto. The object is to give sufficient powers to the Central Board to enable the general principles of the Bill to be carried through.

Amendment moved— After Clause 5 insert as a new clause:

"Central Board of Commissioners.

".—(1) It shall be lawful for His Majesty in Council from time to time to appoint five commissioners, to be called the Central Board of Commissioners for the Control of Public Refreshment Houses (hereinafter called the central board') to act as an appellate tribunal on questions of fact, and the exercise of judicial discretion and to make rules for and issue instructions for the guidance of licensing justices in the granting of the 'improved public-house' certificates referred to in the preceding section and matters appertaining thereto.

"(2) Any person aggrieved by a decision of licensing justices or an application made by him to such justices for an improved public-house' certificate or by a decision of such justices withdrawing such a certificate or by a decision of such justices under section three of this Act may appeal to the central board, and the board may confirm or reverse, or vary in any particular, the decision so appealed from, or refer the matter back to the justices for further consideration.

"(3) The central board shall make rules determining the procedure to be followed on appeals to the board from the decisions of licensing justices."—(Lord Parmoor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 6:

Entertainments in licensed premises.

6. Notwithstanding anything in any public or private Act contained, every licence for the sale of intoxicating liquors to be sold on the premises, if the holder thereof is also the holder of an "improved public-house" certificate, shall be deemed to comprise all licences which would otherwise be necessary in order that theatrical and musical and similar entertainments might be given, or dancing permitted, upon the licensed premises (including buildings or gardens attached thereto), save that the County Commissioners, if they think that good order or public morals would be endangered by dancing on the premises, may prohibit such dancing; and the Commissioners may in any case impose upon the conduct of dancing, as well as of other entertainments upon licensed premises, such conditions as may appear to them to be required in the interests of order and public safety.

LORD PARMOOR

The two Amendments standing in my name to Clause 6 are merely formal.

Amendments moved—

Clause 6, page 3, line 29, leave out ("county commissioners") and insert ("licensing justices")

Clause 6, page 3, line 31, leave out ("commissioners") and insert ("licensing justices").(Lord Parmoor.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 6, as amended, agreed to

Clause 7:

Children on licensed premises.

7. No prohibition of the presence of children upon licensed premises contained in any Act for the time being in force shall apply to premises to which an "improved public-house" certificate is attached.

LORD HARRIS

I think I ought to notice here that this provision is a change in the present law. The law at present is that children below a certain age are not to be admitted to a public-house. These public-houses will have the right to sell spirituous liquors, and children are, apparently, to be admitted to any part of the improved public-house, including that part where the spirituous liquors are to be sold. I do not propose any alteration myself, but this is evidently an evasion of the existing law and of the intention of the country as regards the exclusion of children.

LORD PARMOOR

Let me say, in answer to the noble Lord, that the idea of the improved public-house is that the man and his family might go there, as they do abroad, without any harm happening to them. If the noble Lord wants words to make it clearer, I am sure we could adopt them before the Report stage.

EARL LOREBURN

I would suggest that there should be an alteration, because it cannot be right that children should be admitted.

LORD PARMOOR

I will see that an Amendment is introduced giving effect to the limitation suggested.

EARL RUSSELL

Would it not be possible to meet the wishes of the promoters and also the objections which have been made? What I understand the promoters desire is that, so far as the public-house is not a drinking shop but a tea garden, children and families should go there, and so far as it is a drinking shop that they should be excluded. Could not we allow justices, in granting a public-house licence, to consider that, and to say in what part of the house children should be allowed to go?

LORD PARMOOR

We will consider that and put in limiting words.

Clause 7 agreed to.

Clause 8:

Plans of licensed premises.

8. Section seventy-two of the Licensing (Consolidation) Act, 1910, relating to structural alterations of licensed premises, is hereby repealed, but the County Commissioners may, upon any application to them for the grant or continuance of a licence or an "improved public-house" certificate, demand that the applicant shall produce before them plans of his premises, or of any proposed alteration in them, and may take the nature of the premises as thus indicated into consideration in determining whether they are suitable for the grant of a licence or of a certificate.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 8.—(Lord Parmoor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 9:

Appeals.

9. Any person aggrieved by a decision of the County Commissioners may appeal on a question of law (including the question whether judicial discretion had been exercised by the Commissioners) to the High Court of Justice, by way of case stated in like manner as from a court of summary jurisdiction; and the provision of the Summary Jurisdiction Acts relating to the stating of cases for the opinion of the High Court shall apply, mutalis mutandis, to appeals from the County Commissioners.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 9.—(Lord Parmoor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 10 agreed to.

Clause 11:

Remission of compensation charge.

11. No charge shall be payable lo the compensation authority under section twenty-one of the Licensing (Consolidation) Act, 1910, in respect to premises by die holder of the licence for which an "improved public-house" certificate has been granted.

LORD HARRIS

I do not understand why the remaining licensees are to pay the whole of the charge for the houses which are de-licensed. As we know, the whole of the cost of extinguishing licences and the compensation paid to the licensee and other persons interested in the licence is contributed pro rata by the other licensees in the area concerned. By this clause the noble Lord proposes to give the holder of the improved public-house licence the advantage of not having to contribute towards that levy. I do not quite understand why. They have still got licences to sell spirituous liquor in perhaps a considerable part of the licensed premises, and I do not quite see why, unless it is to encourage licensees to adopt this improved house idea, they are to be exempted from contributing to the levy. I hold no brief whatever for either breweries or licensees. I have no interest personally in any brewery or public-house. Simply from the point of view of equity I do not understand why they are to be altogether relieved from the contribution. Clause 10 exempts them from one-half the licence fee. I should have thought it would have been fairer that they should contribute to the levy 50 per cent.

LORD PARMOOR

The principle is this, that these improved public-houses are not the houses of which the licences are either likely to be surrendered, and therefore they will not be the houses in respect of which any levy could be made. Therefore it was thought fair in these circumstances to exclude them from the levy, as they had no opportunity of getting the advantages which the ordinary licensed house might get out of the levy when the licence is taken away. I agree with the noble Lord that it might to a certain extent encourage improvement. I hope it would; but surely it is quite fair that they should not contribute to the levy when there is no possibility that they could get any advantage from it.

LORD HARRIS

I do not know why they should not get some advantage. If there is a less number of licensed houses in any neighbourhood and an increased demand for liquors, they are likely to get an advantage from it.

Clause 11 agreed to.

Remaining clause agreed to.