Lords Sitting of 6 March 1919

Preamble
Several Lords—Took the Oath.
SOUTH SHIELDS GAS BILL.
Read 2a.

PUBLIC-HOUSE IMPROVEMENT BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
LORD LAMINGTON: My Lords, I beg to propose the postponement of the Committee stage of this Bill. In the discussion upon the Second Reading most of your Lordships who took part approved of the general object and intention of the Bill, but there was considerable criticism upon the proposal for the removal from the justices of their licensing functions. To meet that objection I and other noble Lords have been framing an Amendment, but it has not been possible to get it printed and circulated. Therefore I ask your Lordships to postpone the taking of the Committee stage of the Bill until it has been possible to have this Amendment printed and circulated.
Moved, That the Committee stage of this Bill be postponed.—(Lord Lamington.)
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (THE EARL OF CRAWFORD): I think that the course which the noble Lord has adopted is a very convenient one.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and Committee stage postponed accordingly.

LONDON HORSES.
LORD-RIBBLESDALE LORD-RIBBLESDALE rose to call the attention of His Majesty's Government to the great number of over-loaded, over-aged, and under-fed horses now being worked in the streets of London.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, perhaps to begin with I had better say, for the convenience of the noble Earl who is to answer me, that I do not propose to go at length into the question and to trouble him about under-fed horses. I believe that the noble Earl replies for the Home Office, and of
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course the under-feeding of horses depends on the Forage Controller, and will not come in any way within the purview of the Home Office. I shall not, therefore, expect the noble Earl to say anything about that aspect. I believe that I am to have the honour of being replied to this evening by the Senior Steward of the Jockey Club, an important position in a horse-loving country like England, and one which I know my friend Lord Jersey has done a great deal to raise, if it could be possible, in the general estimation. I also feel that the high-mettled racer which is more or less under his charge is a very different animal from the poor helots whose cause I am pleading to-day.
In these days of motors the horses which have to conduct the heavy and light-wheeled traffic and transport of a great city like London are not popular. They represent, I think, what the psalmist described as "him that hath no helper." They obstruct traffic. If they are doing their best they have their noses nearly cut off by some Rolls-Royce motor, or some taxi, and altogether everybody is sick of everything but motor traffic, and very few care about the horse that drags the wheeled traffic. What is more, my unfortunate clients cannot look for help either to reconstruction, self-determination, a levy on capital, or even the League of Nations which is to put everything right for almost all people in all sorts of ways.
I should like to say to the House, and to my noble friend Lord Jersey, that I quite recognise the many difficulties under which the heavy wheeled traffic of London must have been carried on, and also that of all great cities—but I am speaking more particularly of London—during the four years of war. You have had practically the depletion of the general utility horse all over England, and I know that in my part of the country at the beginning of the war everything with four legs and a tail, however bad or however good, was bought at a very flattering price. I sold five myself that were worth very little money, but the buyers would have them. Then you have had the difficulties of feeding horses under the Food Controller. I think the Food Controller has done well, speaking from the point of view of hunting. I cannot speak with accuracy of the food which was given to the wheel traffic horse of London—to the jobmasters, and so on—but I believe the allowance was not bad. I

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think the difficulty was that, the price being very high, the carmen and owners did not buy the food to give to these horses. But so far as hunting was concerned we were given 10 lbs. of oats, and I think that was a fair allowance. Then there was the difficulty of labour. Heavy horses have to be groomed like other horses, but that was a difficulty inherent in the war. Further there were a great many incompetent drivers. But we are nor at war now, and I think something is due to the honest animals who have borne the brunt of over-loading and over-work and under-feeding for the last four years.
I heard with surprise the other day from some one who knew that it was seriously proposed that representations should be made by the Foreign Office to foreign Govermnents—our Allies I suppose, for I do not know that we are selling to people who are our enemies—as to the treatment that the horses were to receive when they were bought by the French or Belgian or Italian Governments. I really do not think Mr. Pecksniff could go much further than that. But I am also glad to hear that the Foreign Office would have nothing to do with anything so ridiculous, and that they gave our Allies the credit of assuming that they would treat the horses properly.
I do not want to labour at any length either the general or particular aspects of this question of the London streets, and I should think that most of your Lordships, unless you have been immured in the quiet contentment of your country homes, must have noticed that I am not overstating the case when I say that there are an immense number of horses of the kind that I have described in my Motion at present working in the London streets. What happens when suddenly there is an obstruction? A horse is not able to take his load. A crowd quickly collects. I generally look on myself, and I notice that the attitude of the crowd is quite enigmatical. People who come look on with curiosity, some smoke, and nothing is done, nothing is said, but the spirit of that crowd seems to be saturated by the spirit of a once popular song of 25 years ago, which ran in this way—
"Two jolly black eyes,
Oh! what a surprise,
Only for telling a man he was wrong,
Two jolly black eyes."
That is the general impression of people who look on at anything of this sort. At
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last, Heaven knows how, the obstruction is removed, the cart gets on somehow, and no more is heard of it. But, as I say, these cases are constantly occurring and nothing comes of them unless some one intervenes, when they are very likely to be had up for assault.
Now take the general case. I have had two lately before me. Two ladies, both perfectly well acquainted with horses, came across a wagon carrying 2½ tons of coals. One of the ladies I know quite well. She made her own inquiries and was able to judge of what she had seen. The wagon was stranded; it was not drawn by horses, but by two small pit ponies. The wagon had no brakes. At last after super-human exertions the pit ponies, which were quite willing, turned round down the hill on which the brakes did not act and the ponies could not keep the wagon back. There was a policeman there to whom appeal was made. The policeman did not appear to be unsympathetic, but he stood there and took the stoical attitude which I described of the larger crowd, and all he said was "He knew nothing about horses; it is very tiresome; these bad horses obstruct the traffic." But that is all he had to say about it. There again I suppose, somehow or other, the pit ponies got on or got home and nothing more was done about it.
This morning I was in the City, and in Queen-street, where Queen-street runs out of Cheapside over Southwark Bridge, I passed going up the hill a heavily loaded cart dragged by a pony of about thirteen hands. The pony was as game as a pebble and he was collared every yard of the road; but with that kind of pony put to that kind of work it is only a question of a few weeks and he is broken down. On this cart two great fat men were sitting who never offered to move or help him up the hill. I do not think that is right. But the difficulty is the same as that which, I am afraid, we are going to appreciate and discover as regards the German indemnities. What are we to do about it? I do not think that it is very easy to find a cure for this kind of thing. In four years of war people, like the owner of the pony in question, probably find that they can buy a worn out horse for £4 or £5, they can work him to death, and they can buy another; and that is beaten into the temperament of the people who are conducting the wheeled traffic of London. I have very

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little doubt about that. As for saving they cannot buy them now, they can buy them because the Government are selling lots of useful horses. I do not believe that any of those useful horses are at present finding their way on to the streets of London, for this reason—that the price of a good horse is high, and as these people have been able to get on by overworking over-aged horses and horses which no one wanted, they will go on doing that and putting the extra turn into their pockets.
As I say, I do not anticipate that we shall get very much out of His Majesty's Government about this, because I think the question is difficult. I remember bringing it before this House once before, and I was struck by the extraordinarily little sympathy which was exhibited by the House in anything of this kind. I remember when the Bishop of Hereford was much concerned about the gambling proclivities of those committed to his charge, he always used to appeal to this House as a House of sportsmen. No doubt that was a flattering compliment which we all rose to. I do not at all appeal to this House as a House of sportsmen; I do not appeal to it as a House of humanitarians; but I do appeal to it as a House of people who live a good deal in London, who are probably proud of London, and who are probably sorry to see the kind of thing which is going on in the streets of London, due to the causes I have set out in my Motion.
There are three ways, perhaps, of dealing with the matter. One was suggested to me just before I came into the House. It was that the drivers of traffic should be to some extent certificated so that you would be sure to have a good driver. Very often we see a heavy under-bred horse hugging the pole while a well-bred horse is killing himself and dragging the whole weight. I saw one the other day in those circumstances dragging a brewer's dray over Blackfriars-bridge, up that slope, and the driver was hitting the blood horse. He was a horse probably as purely bred as Eclipse. And speaking to Lord Jersey, whose family before him have done a great deal for the blood of this country, I would observe that it is a curious thing if you watch the traffic of London how blood comes out. You see heavy wagons drawn by the blood horse, whereas the underbred horse will not try and do it. This establishes the great value of English blood
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in horse-breeding. But that is not right. These horses are killed by the process, and we are having horses killed under our very eyes by over-working and over-loading, and no one taking the slightest interest in the matter or the slightest care over it.
I see great difficulties in the certification of drivers. I also see considerable difficulty in scheduling the gradients of London and providing horses to help the heavy traffic up them, because a great deal of this over-loading is due not to the very heavy traffic but to the medium traffic, and I do not see who would pay for the help horses. I believe there is a friendly society in regard to horses who do provide a certain number of horses for that particular work. If that could be done it would be a very good thing, but it raises the question of who is to do it and how it is to be done; and though, as I say, we live in the age of reconstruction the last thing that is likely to be reconstructed is anything of that sort. From what I know of my countrymen they will talk a great deal of their love for horses, but when it comes to doing anything they will do as little as any Latin race. The only thing I think might be done—and I would recommend it to the noble Earl who is to reply to me—is this, whether as representing the Home Office it would be possible to devise a means by which a little more supervision in particular places and all over the streets of London could be given under proper Home Office regulation.
I do not think I have overstated my case. This morning I had a long letter from a gentleman, a stranger to me, but who evidently knows his business. It is not worth while reading it to you, but he makes point after point, speaking as a technical man, very much better than I have been able to do. He writes from Wolverhampton—he is a traveller—saying how much he goes about all over England. He says that all his friends who come up to London notice these horses. It is not so bad in the great North country towns. I know Manchester; I know Leeds—you will not see this state of things there. It is London, the centre of this horse-loving country, where these unpleasant scenes and these unpleasant episodes are constantly happening, and where a person who tries to interfere or to help is looked upon as a curious animal, or, in the vernacular of the day, as being "up the pole."
LORD LAMBOURNE: My Lords, I should like to be allowed to say a few words in thanks to the noble Lord who has brought forward this Motion to-day, and I speak not only as one who has devoted many years and a great deal of time to this question of horses, but also as Vice-President of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. This question of the condition of horses in London is one that has occupied my Society for some time. I honestly confess that for the last six months certainly I have paid very close attention to the subject, and I do see a marked improvement in the condition of the horses of London. Not that it does not leave much to be desired. I confess that it does.
First of all, as regards the question of feeding, I do not see very many horses underfed. Take, for example, the railway horses which I happen to know better than any other class of horse, being connected with them to a certain extent. I have always taken particular notice of those horses. During the war they have had the same forage allowance as other horses, yet I do not remember ever having seen a case of an underfed railway horse about the streets of London. That was simply owing to the fact that the forage allowed was given to the animal at a certain time, and this I believe is at the bottom of the mischief of the under-fed over-driven horses in London at the present time. My society think—and I agree with them entirely—that there are three great faults, which are perfectly possible of correction. One is going too fast, the second is the load being too big, and the third is the greasy roads. The first two my society would like to deal with by licensing the drivers, and we are now promoting a Bill in Parliament in that connection.
I am quite aware, as Lord Ribblesdale said, that there are objections, but objections can be raised to any course. I am sure your Lordships are entirely in sympathy with anything affecting horses, and I believe you are ready to assist in passing any measure which you think will assist the society in bettering their conditions. Therefore our proposal at present is that the driver should be licensed. We think that this would certainly assist to a great extent because at the present time one sees young and inexperienced boys smoking cigarettes and not paying any attention to their horses. We have always found the
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crowd extremely sympathetic; and we have been endeavouring as a society to interest ladies as well as men in stopping any carter and asking the name of the driver; and we have given them badges to show that they belong to the Royal Society. I am also bound to say that have received every help and assistance from the Police. My society will be delighted to double the number of inspector if the funds are provided; and my knowledge of appeals to the public for dumb animals is so encouraging that I have every reason to believe that the public generally, your Lordships in particular, would assist the Royal Society in every way when they attempt to increase their inspection in regard to horses. I am of opinion that the licensing system is the best.
With regard to greasy roads, this is a great factor in causing strain upon horses. One can see horses coming up the hill by St. George's, or other hills, on wet days, when it is impossible for the animals to get a proper footing; and we have offered prizes, well worth the having, for the best system of shoeing which will enable a horse to get a proper grip on the roadway. I am sorry to say that up to the present time we have not found anything really suitable to recommend to the public in this direction. I am deeply grateful, as indeed is everybody connected with equine protection societies, certainly my society, to Lord Ribblesdale for bringing this question forward for your Lordships' consideration.
THE EARL OF JERSEY: My Lords, may I first of all thank the noble Lord who introduced this question for the kind references to myself with which he prefaced his remarks, and may I assure him—I am confident he will believe me—that I sympathise with the very humblest horse as much as I do with the thoroughbred racehorse. After all, all classes of horses do their work in their own sphere, and neither horse nor man can do more. The noble Lord will, perhaps, allow me to say that he has rendered a great service not only to humanity but to the reputation of this country—which has a tradition to maintain, as he truly pointed out, as a horse-loving nation—by introducing this question. He rightly told us that when we seek to instruct others in kindness to animals in general and to horses in particular we must be specially careful to cast the beam out of our own eyes before we look for the mote elesewhere; and he will believe me

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when I say that I am as anxious as he is to see the scandal to which he has referred remedied at the earliest possible moment.
I am not going to try to minimise or to explain away facts, the existence of which it would be idle to deny. There is no doubt that during the last two years the condition of horses in London has left much to be desired when compared with pre-war conditions. Before the war over-laden and under-fed horses were very rarely to be seen on our streets. The change may be largely attributed in the first place to war conditions, especially to the shortage of feeding-stuffs and the consequent need of the policy of rationing; in the second place, to the fact that many of the most skilled drivers were called away and their places taken by inexperienced drivers, sometimes even boys, who through ignorance or carelessness did not pay sufficient attention to the condition of the horses in their charge. A third cause was that many of the best horses were requisitioned by the Army and their places taken by animals either too old for the work required or in a very bad and inferior condition.
I observe that the noble Lord in his Notice refers to three distinct classes of horse—over-loaded, over-aged, and underfed. As he has said, the matter of feeding opens up the whole question of rationing. That does not come under the Department which I have the honour to represent in your Lordships' House, but I am not going to attempt any evasion on that score. I hope to show your Lordships that all Departments concerned recognise the necessity for securing proper treatment for our horses, and that they have endeavoured to co-operate in this matter. The noble Lord no doubt recognises that a certain measure of rationing was absolutely necessary for horses as for mankind—
LORD RIBBLESDALE: Hear, hear.
THE EARL OF JERSEY: And although all may not agree with the exact details of the policy, it is satisfactory to note that the restrictions on the use of cereals has recently been withdrawn. The notice, which appeared recently, read as follows—
"The Food Controller has revoked the Horse Rationing (No. 2) Order, 1918, which restricted the amount of cereals to be allowed to horses. The Board of Trade draw the attention of all horse-owners to the fact that the Horses Rationing Order (No. 2), 1918, restricting the amount of
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cereal food to be allowed to horses, has been revoked. The Hay and Straw Order (No. 4), 1918, however, which limits the amount of hay allowed to be fed to horses, and prohibits the feeding of long hay and the bedding of horses on oat straw, remains in operation and must still be strictly observed."
It is something to have withdrawn the restriction on the use of oats: and, speaking for myself, I hope that the restriction on the use of long hay may be revoked at an early date, though I would call your Lordships' attention to the fact that I have no authority whatever to speak on that matter. There is no doubt that certain horse-keepers have taken advantage of the difficulties in obtaining sufficient food for their horses, and have paraded it in certain cases as an excuse for deliberately starving their animals; and I am sure that your Lordships will all agree that this is a state of affairs which certainly ought not to be allowed to continue.
I take it that the noble Lord would prefer that I should deal with this matter in a wider and more general sense. There are, as I think is generally admitted, three degrees of cruelty. There is, first of all, deliberate callousness; there is, secondly, thoughtlessness and ignorance; and there is again the class of man who honestly cannot afford to keep a good horse or to feed him properly. I think I should only be voicing the opinions of every member of your Lordships' House when I say that for the first class, that of deliberate callousness, no punishment can be too severe. I wish, and I have often wished, that very much more drastic measures could be adopted and much heavier penalties enforced in such cases. As for the second class, that of those who are ignorant or thoughtless, I think we shall probably agree that it would be very well that they should be made to realise that the infliction of needless suffering cannot any longer be tolerated. The third class to which I have referred, those who, very likely against their will, are compelled to under-feed their horses, is very difficult to deal with; but I am sure your Lordships will all agree that horses who have done their share at home during these trying years are entitled to the fullest protection and consideration that can possibly be shown them.
It may, perhaps, be convenient if I now read to your Lordships the instructions which have been issued on this matter by the various authorities during recent years. I hope thereby to show the noble

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Lord that, as I have already said, every Department has done its best, in so far as its powers lay, to enlist the sympathies and assistance of the public in this matter as well as to issue all adequate instructions to its own officials. In November, 1917, the Controller of Horse Transport issued a public notice drawing attention to the need for economy in the use of feeding-stuffs, and the, consequent need for easier working of horses. The notice was as follows:—
"The Controller of Horse Transport calls the attention of horse owners and horse users to the necessity for exercising a strict supervision over the manner in which their horses are worked at the present time. The amount of grain allowed by the Rationing Order, while it is the utmost that the available supplies will permit, is in many cases less than the normal quantities given to horses in the winter, and the quality is often not so good as at other times. It is therefore imperative that loads should be lightened as much as possible, and that, whenever circumstances permit, horses with heavy loads should be allowed to walk. Light horses drawing small vans and carts should be trotted only at a slow pace and never pressed. The Controller urges these suggestions upon the notice of horse owners, particularly as many horses are at present necessarily in the hands of inexperienced men and women. Attention to them is desirable, not only from a humanitarian but also from an economical point of view."
The Home Office was asked to co-operate by bringing the matter to the notice of the Police. A circular was sent to the Police enclosing a copy of the Press notice—
"At the request of the Controller of Horse Transport, Board of Trade, I send you the accompanying copy of a notice issued by the Controller to the Press with regard to easier working of town horses. The Controller will be much obliged if the Police on street duty can be instructed to take such opportunities as present themselves to remind persons in charge of horses of the necessity for attention to this matter. It has also been pointed out that much waste of food takes place in the streets from careless adjustment of nose-bags, and this is also a matter which might have the attention of the Police as opportunity offers. In view of the prospective shortage of cereals it is important to avoid waste by all practical means."
In March, 1918, the Home Secretary (Lord Cave) received a deputation on this subject from Members of Parliament who were anxious to effect an improvement in the deplorable state of so many horses at work in the streets of London. The Home Secretary expressed great sympathy with the views which had been put forward by members of the deputation, and said that he would do everything in his power to assist so far as Police action was concerned. The special attention of all ranks of the Metropolitan Police was again drawn to
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the matter by the Commissioner of Police, and a circular was sent out to provincial chief constables. The circular was as follows—
"10th May, 1918.
"I am directed by the Secretary of State to say that the Director of Horse Transport has asked that the Police may again be reminded of the importance of checking the over-working of town horses. The issue of the Horses (Rationing) Order, 1918, reducing by 2 lbs. the maximum amount of cereal foodstuffs which may be fed per day to horses used in trade or business, renders it more than ever necessary that the work of such horses should be adjusted to the amount they are able to perform, and that over-loading and overdriving should be prevented. All possible measures should be taken to stop cruelty or overwork, and to prevent the wastage of horses; and the Police can render valuable assistance by warning horse owners and persons in charge of horses, and, when it becomes necessary, by instituting proceedings. I am to request that you will issue instructions to your force accordingly."
In the Metropolitan area steps were taken to have special observation kept at a large number of points in order to discover any cases of cruelty. The matter is not a very easy one for the Police to deal with, as it is not possible to fix a standard load; for instance, a load which is reasonable on a fine day for a particular horse to draw on the level may be excessive a little later if rain has made the roads slippery and a gradient has to be surmounted; and it must be remembered that in order to prosecute in any case of cruelty the Police have to have sufficient evidence to sustain a charge under the Protection of Animals Act, 1911.
LORD LAMBOURNE: Was that circulated to other towns outside London?
THE EARL OF JERSEY: It was sent to provincial chief constables. With the best will in the world it is very difficult to ensure, in spite of the special instructions given to the Police, that a prosecution should follow in every case where it is warranted. It must be remembered also that the Police force is much depleted by war conditions; the number of officers on point duty and on beats who in normal circumstances would have been able to detect such offences is much smaller. It may, perhaps, be reassuring to the noble Lord if I give him the figures which I have just received, showing the results of the special observations as to cruelty to horses. On December 31, 1918, and also on January 2 and 4 of this year, as a result of the special observations on those three

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days, seventy-seven persons were convicted and twenty-three discharged, and one cautioned; so that action was taken in 101 cases.
LORD PHILLIMORE: In London?
THE EARL OF JERSEY: Those figures show that the Police are doing their best to deal with these cases. I gather that the noble Lord knows of cases where police-constables declined to intervene on the ground that it was outside their duty. I only wish that such cases would be reported, and I am sure the officers concerned would be given to understand in no unmistakable way that they had a very inadequate conception of what their duties really entailed. I am authorised to state that if the noble Lord has particulars of any cases in which he thinks police officers failed to act when circumstances justified their acting, and if he gives information privately to the Home Office, the Home Secretary will be glad to ask the Commissioner of Police to make a strict investigation. To some extent the public have the remedy in their own hands, and if they would only co-operate with the Police a good many cases which at present go undetected might be brought before the Courts. As we know, many persons are very reluctant to associate themselves with action in these cases. It may be that they do not wish to take the trouble to initiate proceedings, or wish to avoid publicity, which to a certain extent would be consequent upon their so doing. But I again say that the authorities would welcome any assistance which they may receive from the public in dealing with these cases. I am informed that there have been some cases in which Members of Parliament and others have with much public spirit taken the trouble to bring cases to the Courts, and there is no doubt that action of this kind produces a good effect and makes these people much more careful to observe the laws.
In conclusion, I may say that to my mind the difficulty of obtaining food should no longer be any excuse for starving horses, because, whatever the conditions may have been in 1917 and 1918, the special circumstances which I mentioned at the beginning of my observations have very largely disappeared. May I also assure the noble Lord that nothing would give me personally greater pleasure than to co-operate with him in this matter, and
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that if he cares to bring any cases to my notice I will see that they are transmitted to the proper authorities, and that, so far as lies in my power, I will use every endeavour to see that they are properly investigated.
LORD RIBBLESDALE: May I, with the indulgence of the House, say a word? First of all, I should like to thank the noble Earl for the most handsome way in which he has met my inquiries and for the promises he has made. I should like to make one comment with regard to what fell from the noble Lord just now. He seemed to think that stopping the carter would have a very good effect. A little time ago I followed a carter up to Marylebone Police-court. The carter was not actually ill-treating the horse. There is a great deal of difficulty in getting assistance in these cases. One does not find people inclined to go and give evidence. I followed up this case, and the carter was fined £1. But in this way you do not reach the man who overloaded the cart, the man to whom the horse belongs and to whom the cart belongs, and the man who is making money out of the load. What happens? The unfortunate carter is a man earning probably 25 s. a week; he has a wife and children to keep. He is summoned, and the owner does not appear. The carter is fined, and the carting contractor pays the fine. That is all that happens.
You will never do anything by reaching the carters. I have not really much to say against the carters. I have seen ignorant driving, but I have not seen many bad cases from the carters. Those people who put the horses into the loads and insist on the carters carrying out the work are the people you have to reach. I am bound to say that I have seen a good many of the instructions to which the noble Earl referred given out from time to time, and on the figures he gave us I must agree that a great deal has been done. Otherwise, I should have said that these instructions were much more honoured in their breach than in their observance. As to Police intervention, when I saw this pony which was over-loaded going up Queen-street there were two magnificent specimens of the City Police standing at the bottom of the gradient. I will admit that they were at the bottom, and did not see where the little pony was stopped. They appeared to be talking over the weights of the Lincoln Handicap. I asked them if they

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had noticed it. "Oh! no." I said, "Have You no authority to notice these things?" "Ah well," one said, "it depends." So I said, "Well, I am going down to the House of Lords this evening and I am going to mention this case." He looked at me then with pity, and evidently thought I was a lunatic. As I was extremely angry I dare say that was justifiable.
I must say I have no doubt that the London police are good men in their own way, but, having followed this business for many years, I think they are no good on this particular job. I have never seen a policeman do anything in regard to the over-loaded wagon unless some passer-by takes the trouble to put his nose into the matter. I feel that the horses for which I am appealing have got a new lease of life and perhaps of happiness, now that the noble Earl has gone to the Home Office and has promised to interest himself in their cause; but I think really you will not do very much unless you put the London police—if they are the proper people to do it—under much stricter covenants of supervision than they have observed so far.
LORD RANKSBOROUGH: My Lords, if I may be allowed I should like to make one remark on the subject of nosebags, which affects the food. Horses can be very well fed out of nosebags only on one condition, and that is that when the horse ceases to eat the food in the nosebag that nosebag is removed. I perpetually see horses standing with their nosebags on, though they are not feeding. The horse breathes on the food, and after he has breathed on it the food is spoilt and he will not eat it. That is where food is wasted.

PRISONERS OF WAR.
EARL FORTESCUE EARL FORTESCUE rose to ask His Majesty's Government if any statement can be made as to the search made in Germany for prisoners of war who had not been repatriated or otherwise accounted for.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, it is common knowledge that there is very strong feeling in this country on account of the representations that were received as to the treatment of our prisoners in Germany, and that feeling is not diminished by the rumours which reach us that
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immediately alter the Armistice men who had been the worst treated of all were being hidden away out of sight in mines and secret camps. These rumours appear to have received some confirmation from the statement that the Government were sending search parties about with ambulances and so forth to discover and rescue these men. There is considerable feeling in the country about the matter, and it will relieve that feeling if my noble friend is able to make the statement which I invite.
THE CONTROLLER OF THE PRISONERS OF WAR DEPARTMENT (LORD NEWTON): My Lords, a statement upon this question has already been made in another place, but I am quite ready to give my noble friend all the information that lies in my power. I am all the more willing to do so because I do not think the country in the least appreciates the great trouble which His Majesty's Government have taken in regard to this particular matter. As I have frequently explained to the House, every prisoner, either on being repatriated to this country or on being interned in a neutral country, has always been closely examined and he has always been particularly closely examined with regard to this question of missing men, and all possible information was extracted from him. As the number of prisoners either repatriated or interned in neutral countries in the course of the war amounted to something like 16,000 or 17,000 it must be quite obvious to the noble Lord that a great deal of information is received from these prisoners with regard to missing men.
This brings me up to the Armistice, and in connection with the Armistice and the repatriation that then ensued, perhaps I may be allowed—in view of the abuse, occasionally of a very malevolent nature, which has been constantly levelled at everybody connected with the repatriation of prisoners of war—to draw attention to the extremely satisfactory manner in which that repatriation was carried out. By the end of the year—the Armistice, as will be recollected, took place on November 11—by the end of the year, in spite of the almost appalling difficulties which existed, no fewer than 130,000 prisoners had already been repatriated, and it is no exaggeration to say that by the middle of January practically every prisoner had been repatriated who was capable of being

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transported to this country. I have no hesitation in saying that the greatest credit is due to the following persons, amongst others—to the Dutch representatives who looked after our interests at Berlin; the British officers who were sent to Berlin to organise the repatriation; the British officers and the British Red Cross officials in neutral countries such as Denmark, Holland, and Switzerland; and also, I should like particularly to add, to the Minister of Shipping, who provided a large number of ships in spite of the great shortage which prevailed at that time. We are also greatly indebted to the Government of the States I have mentioned, more especially to the Danish Government, the Dutch Government, and the Swiss Government, and also to the Swedish Government, for their benevolent co-operation in carrying out the work of repatriation. I think I may fairly claim that the repatriation of British prisoners of war was carried out more quickly and more efficiently than any other of the Allied prisoners of war, and I venture to add that more was done to promote their comfort, both on their journey to this country and upon their arrival here, than was done in the case of any of the other Allied prisoners.
As soon as the camps were cleared, search parties were at once organised and sent into Germany from the British Expeditionary Force. These parties consisted of fully equipped and self-supporting motorcar parties, composed of medical officers with their attendants, and a separate party was sent to each army corps district in Germany. These parties, with the assistance of the German authorities, made a thorough search of all camps, prisons, hospitals, asylums, and other places where it was thought there might be found British prisoners of war, and the result of this exhaustive search was to discover something like 120 prisoners, some of whom expressed their intention of remaining in Germany and of not returning to this country at all. Of these, all except a few sick and wounded men have been removed, and the incapacitated prisoners will be evacuated in hospital trains under medical supervision. In addition to these elaborate search parties, other search parties were sent from the British Forces in Italy to Southern Germany. These parties have now completed their work, and they have reported that all the districts are clear, as I have already stated, except for a few sick and wounded men and those few men
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who have signified their intention of remaining permanently in Germany. The other Allies have sent similar parties, and the Allies communicate the results to each other.
I think it right to add that there is no indication whatsoever that the Germans are keeping any prisoners of war in hiding. The German Government have given the most categorical assurance that no men are being kept back, and they have also threatened severe penalty on any German employers and other persons who are illegally retaining prisoners. Possibly in the opinion of some noble Lords this assurance may not amount to much, but in addition to that we have had the opinion strongly expressed by the Dutch Minister, who represents our interests in Berlin, that no prisoners are being kept back. This is also, I understand, the opinion of the British officers who have taken part in the search, and, as noble Lords probably are well aware, the existence of those secret camps in which British officers were believed to be confined—the pathetic belief was persistently held—has been entirely destroyed.
But in spite of this assurance and there being no evidence that any prisoners are being concealed, we are not taking anything for granted. There are still a number of missing to be accounted for. They probably amounted about a month ago to something like 7,000 men—I am speaking of men who have been reported as prisoners and who have not yet been traced. That number, 7,000, has already been reduced to 2,900, and no doubt it will be reduced still further. But the names of these missing men have been forwarded to the Armistice Commissioners at Spa, and they have been forwarded to Berlin for communication to the German Government. The German Government will be called upon to account for every one of these men. In addition to the steps I have described, it is also intended to organise a special investigation by British officers of the Records at Frankfort, which is the Headquarters of the German Red Cross, and it is highly probably that special inquiries will be instituted in Belgium and the North of France. I would like, in conclusion, to assure my noble friend that all inquiries which arrive at the Department with regard to missing men are attended to. A special Committee was appointed not long ago for the express

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purpose of assisting the War Office in tracing men who had disappeared in France and Belgium; and I can assure the House that every clue which is received, however vague and inconclusive it may be, is followed up, and forms the subject of most careful investigation on our part.
EARL FORTESCUE: May I ask the noble Lord one further question. Can be tell us anything about the prisoners in Turkey?
VISCOUNT GALWAY: I am sure we are glad to hear from the noble Lord that every step is being taken to trace these missing men, but, rightly or wrongly, there is a general idea in the public mind that there are many men who are still buried in mines in some parts of Germany. I do not know whether the search parties have gone into these mines, but it would be a great relief to the public, and to the relatives, if we were assured that this step has also been taken.
THE EARL OF MEATH: My Lords, we owe a debt of gratitude to my noble friend for having, by his Question, elicited from the Government what I consider a very satisfactory report. I know there is a great deal of feeling amongst many people that the Government did not do all that they ought to have done in former days, but I believe that that was a mistaken idea. I think the more we hear of what really has been done the more grateful we must be to the Government for what they have done to find any men who are left in Germany, and personally I should like to express my thanks to Lord Newton because he is the genius who really has effected such a complete clearance of those who are reported as having been missing in Germany. Of course, the 2,900 still missing is not a large number, and I believe we shall find that a great many of those have unfortunately died in some way without its being known.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I can assure my noble friend that we are taking particular care naturally to ascertain that no prisoners were left in mines. The first business of the search parties, and the first business of the German authorities, was to see that all men were immediately brought back from all working camps and
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more especially from mines. Not only was that separately attended to, but we have received long and most categorical assurances that there are no prisoners retained in mines. It is the case that we found a few instances in which individuals were kept in mines after the Armistice. These are circumstances which we are carefully inquiring into, and for which I hope the proper responsibility will be fixed, and the proper punishment inflicted. But I am only too glad to think that the belief, which apparently prevails, that there are large numbers of prisoners concealed in Germany is, so far as our information goes, quite unfounded.
My noble friend opposite asked me if I could give him any information about Turkey. It is not easy to give exact information about Turkey because, as the noble Lord probably knows, it has always been extremely difficult to obtain figures from the Turks. But we believe that the number of men unaccounted for in Turkey is comparatively small, and is not believed to amount to more than 200 or 300. The High Commissioner in Turkey has been asked to take whatever steps he may consider necessary in order to trace any men who are missing. I am not sure whether the point was raised, but perhaps the House would be interested to learn that the distribution, so to speak, of prisoners, and the number who have been captured during the entire war, so far as I am able to gather—I do not answer for the figures being perfectly accurate—is roughly 8,000 officers, 167,000 of other ranks, British; 10,000 Colonials, 11,000 Indians, and 3,000 of the Royal Naval Division—making a total of 199,000. I should be sorry to commit myself to the exact figures, but it is to be feared that something like 12,000 of those reported as having been taken prisoner by the Germans must be dead.
EARL FORTESCUE: May I ask one other question, by leave of the House? The noble Lord spoke of 200 or 300 men being unaccounted for in Turkey. Would those be British or Indian troops?
LORD NEWTON: They would not include both.
EARL FORTESCUE: I should like to thank my noble friend for his statement.

FOOD SITUATION IN CENTRAL EUROPE.
VISCOUNT WIMBORNE VISCOUNT WIMBORNE rose to ask His Majesty's Government what steps, if any, they propose to take to relieve the food situation in Central Europe.
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I have put down the Question which stands in my name in the hope of eliciting from the Government some information on this subject, as to the facts of which there is deep and I think well-grounded concern. A statement on this subject would be welcome if, and in so far as, it is possible in the public interest to make it. For a long time we have seen reports in the Press and elsewhere as to the food situation in Central Europe. It has been depicted as being serious for some considerable time, but a good deal of uncertainty naturally has existed because all these reports, as far as I know, have been unofficial newspaper reports.
But this week evidence of a more substantial character has come to hand. Sir John Beale, who, as the House will remember, was the British representative on the Inter-Allied Food Distribution Organisation in Paris, has recently resigned for reasons which are not quite clear, unless, as it seems to be at first sight, it is due to a protest on his part as to the inaction of the Allies in dealing with the subject. The House will remember that Sir John Beale was for the two most critical years of our food condition chairman of the Wheat executive, and therefore he is a gentleman who obviously can speak with great authority on this subject. In an interview which he accorded to The Times newspaper, reported yesterday, speaking of the situation he said that there would be difficulty to prevent widespread famine even if the most vigorous measures are immediately adopted. I would remind the House that he is not here referring only to Germany or Austria, but also, and very much so, to Poland. Then on Monday the Secretary of State for War, speaking in another place, said that from the special sources of information which were open to him he was convinced that Germany is very near to starvation. I suppose, therefore, that we must conclude from these two important sources of information that the earlier reports with regard to the growing scarcity of food in Central Europe have not been exaggerated.
I presume that this situation is due, in the first place, to disorganisation of the
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transport system in Central Europe, but also—and I dare say mainly—to the maintenance of the Allied blockade of the Central Empires. The effect of this situation has also been described in recent observations which have fallen from various Ministers. Mr. Churchill, in the speech to which I alluded, declared that Germany was in danger of collapse. Mr. Bonar Law only yesterday spoke of the danger of Germany falling into Bolshevism; and the Prime Minister, addressing the Executive Committee of the Industrial Conference, I think on Wednesday, spoke of the possibility of this old country being entrusted with the duty and privilege of saving civilisation. Events that have recently taken place in the city of Munich and also in the city of Berlin go a long way to confirm the possibility of such an internal condition arising out of a shortage of food, and I think that it should be remembered that this Bolshevist germ becomes very infectious in countries which are suffering from food shortage. There is, I think, a fear that the whole of the vast area East of the Rhine may gradually sink down under the menace of that terrible scourge.
I would like the House to bear in mind in this connection that it is not only the enemy countries which are concerned, but Poland and Bohemia and the other new States that we are hoping to set up in Eastern Europe. The fact is that there is a grave risk if this state of affairs is allowed to go on and develop, as it may, of our being cheated of the possibility of making the peace which we hope will end the situation through which we have been passing; because it may easily happen that we shall not find any Government in Germany or Austria competent to sign a peace, and we may find that we are confronted with a situation which is graver and more terrible than that from which we have only just emerged.
I am quite aware that the whole question is of a delicate and complicated character, but the danger is so imminent and so appalling that I think I shall not be going too far if I invite the Government to give us some more coherent and exhaustive statement of their policy than that which we are allowed to pick up from the Ministerial obiter dicta to which I have alluded.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I should like to say a word in support of the appeal which may noble friend

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beside me has just made for further information upon this grave subject. I confess that I look with the utmost dismay upon the condition of things which prevails in Central Europe at this moment. It seems to me that we are approaching—I am afraid rapidly approaching—a catastrophe which may prove to be one of the most disastrous that has ever occurred in the history of the world. That catastrophe may be inevitable, but at any rate I think we in this country ought to feel sure that we are at least doing what we can to avert it; and certainly that we are not standing in the way of any measures which might be taken to alleviate the pressure of adversity in these regions.
As to the facts, I do not think there is any doubt. My noble friend beside me has sketched them. We cannot pretend that we have been unprepared for these events. We were warned of them in the autumn of last year by Mr. Hoover, who, your Lordships will remember, made a very important report shortly before his return to America in that month. Summed up briefly, what Mr. Hoover had then to say was that of some 520,000,000 of people whose case was present to his mind, there were only 40,000,000 who had the prospect of getting enough food to carry them to the harvest of this year—that is so long as imports were prevented from reaching them; and that is a very important reservation.
More lately than that we have had, for example, the remarkable statement which appeared a few days ago in the columns of the Daily Telegraph, written obviously by some one who had had special opportunities of carefully studying the German situation on the spot. We also had the report made by fourteen officers who were specially sent out to investigate the condition of things. All these reports have told us the same story. They all tell of rations sufficient perhaps to keep body and soul together but not sufficient to nourish a human being, of scarcity of fuel, of the break-down of transport arrangements, of the impossibility to get clothing, and—following upon all these things—of the terrible debility and inertia which is spreading amongst the sorely afflicted population. Then there are old diseases, such as tuberculosis, and new diseases engendered by extreme privation; children dying in numbers, many born dead; and with all this a steadily growing despair which seems to bring closer every day the spectre
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of Bolshevism which threatens all these countries.
My noble friend referred just now to a very striking contribution to the literature of this subject made two or three days ago by no less an authority than the Secretary of State for War. I would like, if your Lordships will permit me, to dwell for a moment on that statement, which seems to me to be one of the most significant that has been made for a long time. Mr. Churchill dwelt upon the fact that the greater part of Europe and the greater part of Asia are plunged in varying degrees of disorder and anarchy: vast areas in both these continents inhabited by immense and once thriving populations are convulsed by hunger, bankruptcy, and revolution. The Minister went on to urge the importance of the speedy enforcing of the peace terms upon Germany. He said—
"We are holding all our means of coercion in full operation or in immediate readiness for use. We are enforcing the blockade with rigour.… Germany is very near starvation. All the evidence I have received from officers sent, by the War Office all over Germany shows, first of all, the great privations which the German people are suffering, and, secondly, the danger of a collapse of the entire structure of German social and national life under the pressure of hunger and malnutrition."
Here is Mr. Churchill's conclusion—
"Now is, therefore, the moment to settle. To delay indefinitely would be to run a grave risk of having nobody with whom to settle, and of having another great area of the world sink into Bolshevik anarchy."
Mr. Churchill felt, as he was speaking, how odious it must be for any Englishman to contemplate the free use of such weapons. He declared that it was "repugnant to the British nation to use this weapon of starvation (which falls mainly upon the women and children, upon the old, the sick, and the poor) after all the fighting has stopped," one moment longer than was necessary to secure the just terms for which we have fought. That is a conclusion which I venture to think no one will dispute.
Now, my Lords, we may ask ourselves, How long is this process of turning the screw, of using the weapon of starvation, likely to last? It is apparently intended to use it until Germany has accepted the terms which we desire to impose. What I rather hope to gather from my noble friend who will reply presently is whether by that is meant that we are to go on with this

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policy of blockade and starvation until a final and complete settlement of all outstanding claims has been reached. If that is intended, then I venture to say that the prospect before us is indeed a most disquieting one. A final and complete settlement would mean, let us remember, not only a settlement as between the Allies and the Central Powers, but a settlement of a number of questions, some of them very controversial, between the Allies themselves. We are, as far as can be judged, making good progress at Paris in regard to great questions like the League of Nations, like the question of disarmament, and so forth; but I have not been able to see any accounts tending to show that in regard to the acute territorial questions which must necessarily form a part of the final settlement, much progress has been made. If we are to go on with the starving policy until all that welter of difficult international questions has been cleared up, I am afraid we shall find, as Mr. Winston Churchill feared, that there will be nobody left with whom to come to terms at all. He spoke, further on in his speech, of the danger of "starving everybody into Bolshevism." That is the danger of which I am afraid.
I am aware that I have touched upon a very delicate and difficult question, and I quite understand that my noble friend may find it impossible to give me anything like full and complete information with regard to it; but I should be more grateful to him than I can say if he were able to utter a few reassuring words which would show the country that we have not embarked upon this ruthless policy except with the idea of bringing about a rapid and satisfactory arrangement upon certain main points, leaving others to be decided deliberately and in a more leisurely fashion here after.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, before the noble Earl replies I should like to add a word or two on what appear to me to be the terrible conditions on the Continent as regards food supplies. We have not only the statistics that have been referred to and published, but there is also a Committee in this country which has obtained much information from persons who themselves have visited what I may call the afflicted districts; and I am sure that nobody who has studied this question at all can think that there is any over-statement in what was said by the Secretary
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of State for War in his speech on Monday, and no graver statement, I think, could possibly have been made by any responsible Minister.
I may, perhaps, allude to two matters which have already been referred to incidentally, in order to emphasise them. Rumania is our Ally. There were statistics published the other day that actual starvation to a considerable extent was going on from day to day in Bucharest; and I believe that Rumania is not the worst case. Portions of Poland and Macedonia are living under conditions even worse than those obtaining in Rumania. As regards Germany, I hope that most of the members of your Lordships' House read and carefully considered the Report, to which the noble Marquess referred, made by fourteen perfectly independent British officers with regard to the conditions in certain parts of Germany. What did that Report come to? It came to this, that wherever they went those officers found that the populations were on the verge of starvation. Not only did they say that they were on the verge of starvation, but that conditions were rapidly getting worse owing to the want of employment and to the impossibility either of an adequate food supply or of producing commodities which might be exchanged for an adequate food supply.
Let me give one statistic—I am speaking from memory, but I think I am perfectly accurate—in reference to the Bolshevist movement to which the noble Marquess has referred. These officers stated that from their inquiries they found that there were 200, 000 unemployed in Berlin, and that the rate of unemployment was increasing—I do not want to exaggerate, but I think it was about 5,000 a day, or some figure of that kind. They reported further that, as regards the possibility of the distribution of a food supply amongst the afflicted districts, there was an entire inadequacy of transport facilities with regard to both trucks and engines, and they gave specail statistics as regards the conditions in Hanover. The statistics were specially given with regard to Hanover, with an indication that similar conditions prevailed in other parts of the Continent. What was the, result? That the provision of railway wagons and railway engines was totally inadequate for the distribution of food in the Hanoverian district.

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I should like to emphasise what the noble Marquess has said as regards the horrors of a possible catastrope. There has never been a great war at a time when the food supply of the world has depended to the same extent that it now depends upon transport facilities. Huge populations are collected in industrial centres which have never been collected together in the same numbers in the case of previous wars, and those populations can be protected against wanton starvation only by what has become the artificial system of inter-communication which has been produced, of course, by the gradual development of our railway system. Therefore you have at the present time, without any question, large populations—I need not go into the very large figures quoted by Mr. Hoover—admittedly on the verge of starvation, admittedly unable to obtain food, admittedly with increasing unemployment, and, as far as I can see, with no immediate prospects of any improvement.
I am anxious to indicate shortly three way in which I think we are creating an artificial addition to the natural horrors of the situation. Your Lordships are aware that we found during the course of the war what was called the "strangling blockade" one of the most efficacious weapons against our enemies. I do not question for a moment either the justification of its employment or the decisions which have been given that the "strangling blockade" was certainly allowable as a reprisal order against the steps taken in connection with the submarine warfare by our German enemies. What I want to ask the noble Earl is this. Can be give an answer which may suggest the hope that this blockade may be brought to an end or relaxed as soon as possible? The noble Lord has referred to what is of extreme importance—namely, the settlement of the peace terms. But before the peace terms can be settled, is there not a case for relaxing the blockade of the Allies? What does it mean? Has not every observer said that unless this blockade is relaxed we are bringing the horrors of actual famine home to millions of people on the Continent? It would be the most fearful crime in history if it were brought home to any country that they encouraged a result of that kind. I know perfectly well that we in England would naturally at all times do what we could to relieve conditions of this kind. But you cannot relieve them merely by temporary measures. You must reinstate
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as soon as possible the ordinary trade conditions. Whatever you may do in a temporary way, you can never permanently deal with the terrible conditions as they exist at the present moment; and I hope the noble Earl will be able to say that now that the actual conditions of warfare are over and that the reasons for the reprisal order, on which these strangling blockades were justified, have gone by, there may be an immediate chance of some relaxation.
The second point that I wish to make is this, and I will quote from memory, because I had not intended to speak on the subject, what was said by Marshal Foch. There were demands made as regards the delivery up by Germany of trucks and wagons, and it was suggested that he had not, under the terms of the Armistice, enforced to the utmost the giving up by Germany of their transport wagons and engines. On that he was interviewed about three weeks ago by the representative of a French newspaper. The result of the interview was this, that both Germany and Austria were on the verge of starvation, and that any further interference with these transport facilities might have the most terrible results. Therefore I want to make certain, as far as the attitude of this country is concerned, that nothing will be done to increase either the area or the difficulties of this great famine question by insisting on the delivering up of transport wagons, and engines, without which no food supplies can really be distributed in the distressed districts. I must say that I think the question of starvation is one which goes before all others.
The last question I wish to put no doubt raises a rather wider question, but there are two great difficulties from which Central Europe is suffering at the present time. One is unemployment, and the other is the want of productive commodities which, as soon at any rate as the blockade is raised, might be exchanged for food supplies. You cannot deal with this matter artificially. These huge populations must either be in a position to supply themselves with food or to produce commodities which they can exchange for the food supplies which they desire and demand. What I want to ask the noble Earl is whether he can give any intimation on the point of interference with what I may call the natural course of trade, and more particularly with the supply of raw material. What is going to happen, apart from

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temporary measures in the next six months, so that these normal industrial conditions may be revitalised and in order that in the normal industrial manner a great misfortune of this kind may be averted? You cannot do it artificially. You may make up for a time for want in particular districts, but the areas are too large and the difficulties too great, and what we want to do is to encourage industrial reconstruction and general industrial production in Central Europe at the earliest possible moment. At least what I plead for is that nothing should be done to put any artificial restrictions on reconstruction of that character. This is a matter which those who have looked into it carefully feel very deeply. They do not believe that there is any desire in this country except to use our national resources and our national influences to prevent this great catastrophe of a European famine, and I urgently hope, as I have no reason to suppose the contrary, that the Government will look upon this as a great and pressing matter and will do what they can in the real cause of humanity and of suffering.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, I have been asked to make a comprehensive statement on the general position, but this Question only appeared on the Paper this morning, and during the debate it has been enlarged into a discussion on foreign affairs of first-class importance. I regret that I can only answer your Lordships in very general terms. I think Lord Wimborne is aware that the British Government does not act alone in these matters, but that the arrangements for the relief of distress in Europe are in the hands of what is called the Supreme Economic Council, now sitting in Paris, on which Lord Robert Cecil is the British representative, and of which Mr. Hoover is, or up to perhaps a day or two ago was, what is called Director-General of Relief. These matters, therefore, are not settled in London or by the British Government.
As regards the statements made this afternoon, there is no concealment of the fact that the situation in Central and South-Eastern Europe gives cause for grave anxiety. The Question only refers to Central Europe, which presumably would mean Southern Germany, Bohemia, and Northern Austria, and so on. But what I say applies to Northern Europe as well as Southern Europe, notably the Balkans,
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equally. I say the situation throughout Europe is very serious. I do not mean to convey to your Lordships that since the Armistice nothing has been done to relieve distress. On the contrary, at the present moment Austria is being fed partly from British Army resources, partly from supplies advanced by Italy and by Switzerland. Effective steps have been taken both from this country and from the Supreme Council in Paris to send food to Rumania. As regards Germany itself, 30,000 tons of bacon are on their way there, or are due at Rotterdam for German account by the middle of this month, and very large quantities of condensed milk are likewise on their way to the same destination. Arrangements have been made to assist the Serbian position, and steps have also been taken with regard to distress in Lithuania, Esthonia, the Caucasus, Turkey, Montenegro, and Finland, and I think I am correct in saying Bulgaria also, but I am not quite sure about Bulgaria. I wish your Lordships to understand that what one of your Lordships referred to—namely, the internal difficulties of the country—may be such as to paralyse, if not to eliminate altogether, the employment of relief from outside the country. The Russian case I quoted to your Lordships a few days ago. Russia is starving. People are starving in Russia by the thousand, owing to the new dispensation of politics. But it is no good our sending foodstuffs to Russia, because those foodstuffs cannot reach the suffering population. That equally applies to other countries as well, transport having collapsed in some cases and everywhere having been seriously impaired.
Although arrangements such as I have described have been made and are still being made, it is no use suggesting that they are adequate to meet the needs of the situation. They are not. One must, in the first place, remember the technical fact that it is difficult to relieve countries which are bankrupt—very difficult, especially when internal distribution is such that their transport (as I described it) is worse than it has been ever before, after several years of war; and, finally, when one has to make these arrangements with Governments which are apt to change from month to month. In the case of Germany there is this particular difficulty—and I invite the very special attention of your Lordships to this fact—that the tonnage, the mercantile marine of Ger-

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many, which has been demanded by us from her ports in order to relieve distress is not yet forthcoming. It is a most significant fact. I do not pretend to explain it. I do not know how much German tonnage there is, but I doubt not it is a couple of million tons. Yet, although in the first terms of the Armistice (which I read to your Lordships on November 11 last) the Allies expressed themselves as ready to do something effective for relieving German distress, from that day to this we have not got one ton of the German mercantile marine delivered in Allied ports. That puts an entirely new complexion on the whole situation of Central European distress, and it is one to which, when the supreme body in Paris is blamed, attention should in fairness be given.
Lord Lansdowne asked when the blockade was going to be raised. I am afraid I cannot possibly answer a question like that except by consulting the supreme authority in Paris, and clearly I could not even then reply without obtaining from them a most carefully written and considered Note to communicate to Parliament. But in view of what I said to your Lordships just now about tonnage—that Germany has failed to surrender any of this tonnage—I imagine that fact is taken into account by those, Marshal Foch and others, who take the view that the time is not yet ripe for completely raising the blockade. I would ask your Lordships to take note of this point, that so far as our own Allied requirements are concerned we have only just sufficient tonnage to meet our own needs and those of our Allies. This tonnage is not sufficient in quantity to give us a free choice of market. It is still inadequate in bulk to allow us to choose our markets for foodstuffs, to go, if you like, to the most distant markets for grain. We ourselves simply have not got enough tonnage to pour food into enemy and ex-enemy countries. We fed a great part of Europe throughout the war, and we are not in a position to feed the whole of Europe immediately after the war. So far as tonnage is concerned we shall have, for the moment at any rate, to look largely to the efforts of the United States of America for providing deficiencies.
In conclusion, I repeat that the Supreme Economic Council in Paris is fully aware of the profound seriousness of the whole situation, and it is hoped that during the course of the next few weeks, pending the
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transfer of the German mercantile marine, it may be possible to concert some emergency measures which may stave off an impending disaster.
LORD HARRIS: My Lords, I cannot help rising to express my surprise at one suggestion made by my noble and learned friend on the other side in his final remarks as regards the restoration of manufactures and the means of employment in Central Europe (as I understood him). Not one word of sympathy came from the noble Lord as regards the state of affairs in Belgium and France.
LORD PARMOOR: I mean generally.
LORD HARRIS: What has Germany suffered? Her factories have not been destroyed. Her capacity for turning out munitions has not been destroyed by any enemy, unless it be on the borders of the country which our aeroplanes were able to reach. She ought to be in full capacity for turning out material. But what of Belgium? I rise only for this reason, that I happened in the course of business to interview quite recently a gentleman from Belgium. He had returned from two years internment in Germany, and he had arrived in Belgium. His description of it to me was: "There is not one single thing in Belgium; absolutely nothing to be got. I wanted a suit of clothes, and had to go to England to get it." Belgium wants very urgently—and I imagine Northern France also—
LORD PARMOOR: Hear, hear.
LORD HARRIS: Belgium and France want the means to restore their factories, the actual buildings, but they cannot do that because they have not the transport. The lines have been destroyed. All they have is the river transport. The canals have been destroyed, the railways have been destroyed, and the roads have been destroyed; and until these are restored they cannot get the material to rebuild their originally thriving factories. Surely, they come far before Central Europe! Belgium is endeavouring now to make arrangements in this country which will enable her to buy the machinery without which it is impossible for her to start any of her industries. Even then, until the interior means of communication can

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be restored, it is impossible for her to re-start her factories. There is the real difficulty, and there the country that is suffering; and I must say that I am surprised that the noble and learned Lord should speak in such sympathetic terms of Central Europe, which ought not to have suffered, and should have not one word of sympathy for the country which was first outraged.
LORD PARMOOR: May I say one word by way of explanation? I had not the slightest desire not to express my most intense sympathy with the conditions in Belgium. All I said was—and I did not know I had limited it—that I hoped there would be no interference upon securing the essential conditions which I think are necessary in order to reconstruct the industries—the very point to which the noble Lord has referred.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I agree entirely with Lord Harris, that our first duty is to our despoiled and maltreated Allies before we think of the communities of Central Europe, and I hope and believe that this is the view of the great authorities in Paris. I confess I am appalled at the amount of human suffering which we are witnessing at this moment, and I was very much gratified to hear my noble friend the Chancellor of the Duchy say that it was very much at the heart of His Majesty's Government to do what they could to prevent the awful catastrophe of general starvation befalling these unfortunate people. Although our enemies have behaved wickedly to us, and although we have deep reason to complain, yet we cannot but be deeply sorry for the women and children and the poor who may be reduced to these awful straits. In anything that the Government can do to relieve this misery, let me assure them they will have the sympathy of the great mass of our people. We are not vindictive as a people, and speaking as an Englishman to Englishmen—and may I say as a Christian to Christians?—we must do what we can, consistently with the other great obligations upon us, to relieve the
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misery even of our enemies. I am greatly gratified that this is also the view of His Majesty's Government.
VISCOUNT WIMBORNE: Perhaps I may be permitted to say that in using the expression "Central Europe" I included all that part of Europe which lies east of the Rhine, and which embraces not only the country of our enemies, but the country also of friendly races, such as Poland and Bohemia. I was not thinking only of our enemies but of the general conditions of Europe, to which the Chancellor of the Duchy in his reply has alluded. I should like to say how much I thank him for his statement, which I think is on the whole of a very satisfactory character. I quite realise the immense difficulties, the enormous complexity, and the almost superhuman task which the feeding of Europe involves, but in view of the statements which have fallen from Ministers during the course of the last week or so I thought that it would be an advantage to give the Government an opportunity of making the sort of statement which has fallen from the Chancellor of the Duchy to-day.

PRIVATE BILLS, &c.
[From Minutes of March 5.]
BECCLES WATERWORKS.
(Petition for Bill.)
SHEFFIELD CORPORATION BILL.
LEEDS CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Examiner's Certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Tuesday next.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
First Report from the Select Committee made; to be printed, and to be considered on Thursday the 13th instant.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes after six o'clock.