§ VISCOUNT SANDHURSTMY Lords, in accordance with tie provisions of Section (8), subsection (3), of the Ministry of Health Act, 1919, I move to resolve, That this House approves the said Draft Orders. They arise out of the Ministry of Health Act which your Lordships passed earlier in the session. I put forward then all the various arguments in favour of these Consultative Councils, and I think it unnecessary for me to repeat them. If there are any questions on the matter I will do my best to satisfy your Lordships.
§ Moved, That this House approves the said Draft Orders.—(Viscount Sandhurst.)
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I venture to hope that the Government will not press the Motion at this moment. It raises a very interesting point 619 which was a matter of considerable conversation across the Table whilst the Bill was going through Parliament. My noble friend opposite will remember that we indicated that we saw no objection to two of the Advisory Councils, but were not prepared to look with very much favour upon the other two. If my noble friend proceeds with the Motion now, I shall be obliged to move an Amendment to it.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYNo doubt the Government can arrange a suitable day, but I do not think even the Notices on which this is founded are lying on the Table—
§ VISCOUNT SANDHURSTThey were put down two or three days ago.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYAre they on the Table? They at any rate are not in the usual place where we expect to find our Papers, and I think it is doubtful whether any of your Lordships are really aware of what is proposed. If the noble Viscount presses the matter I must make a speech about it; but I suggest that he should postpone the Motion.
§ VISCOUNT SANDHURSTI might mention one thing. Great objection was taken on a former occasion, because, I think it was, the Association of Municipal Corporations strongly objected to the course proposed; but since that time, owing to a conference, that objection has been withdrawn and that powerful association has submitted names to form part of one of these Councils. At the same time if the noble Marquess wishes that I should postpone my Resolution I will do so, and name a day, in conference with the noble Marquess, when it may be convenient.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYThe noble Viscount is extremely courteous, and I think what he suggests would be advisable.
§ LORD MUIR MACKENZIEI have already mentioned to my noble friend a point which I think requires careful consideration. Great importance has been attached to the procedure that was laid 620 down in the House under the Ministry of Health Act—namely, that distinction should be drawn between those cases where after a certain number of days an Order, or whatever it may be, should come automatically into effect, and those cases where a substantive Motion should be put down to say that the Order, or whatever it is, is approved. I think it is of great importance that that should be a reality, and that it should not turn out that after all the substantive Motion is of no more value than the old procedure.
In this particular case, unless I am mistaken, what was laid down in the Ministry of Health Act was this, that every Order except one appointing the appointed day was to lie on the Table of both Houses for, I think, forty days. Then came another subsection which divided the Orders into two classes, but they all came under the first subsection. Every Order was to lie on the Table so many days. Then they were divided into two classes. One class, the minor Orders, wore at the end of forty days, if no objection was raised, to come into operation. The others, after lying on the Table for the prescribed period, were to be subject to a positive Address from both Houses before coming into effect.
I do not think the period of forty days has elapsed since these Orders were laid upon the Table, and therefore if the procedure is right you have brought in this new proposal about a positive Order in the House, and it may be put down immediately, as in this case, within the time mentioned in the previous part of the section and without anybody having had time to look into it. It is proposed to appear upon the Records of Parliament that Parliament has approved of these Orders. I think it is a matter of immense importance. I troubled the House on the same point with reference to the Church Bill, and I proposed that a period of twenty days should be stated so as to allow an Order to lie upon the Table and after that time a positive Motion could be made saying whether the House approved or not. I think to put down a positive Motion before giving sufficient time, and without having regard to the particular time mentioned in the Statute, is not really doing justice to the new proposal.
§ LORD STUART OF WORTLEYMay I suggest that, as well as having conferences with the noble Marquess, the noble Lord should have these Departmental 621 Orders circulated to members of the House in the ordinary way. I mean that members should at all events have an opportunity of getting these Papers by affixing their signatures to the Pink Form. There should be a drawing of the attention of members of both Houses to these Orders, in the same way as you circulate Bills and other proposals of that kind. Failing that, I shall remain of opinion that this procedure is quite as much a mockery as I described it when discussing the Bill.
§ VISCOUNT SANDHURSTMay I say that there is another reason for agreeing to the proposal of the noble Marquess to postpone the Motion. I understand from authority here that the Draft Orders were printed before the House of Commons, but have not been printed here. If I am to blame I regret it very much. With regard to the other point raised by Lord Muir Mackenzie, of course we all agree that anything which the noble and learned Lord says on the question of procedure, remembering his distinguished career at the Table, must naturally command respect; but at the same time we had informed ourselves, having taken opinion, that we were quite competent to make the Motion when we did. What the noble and learned Lord has said did not escape us, and while I listened to what he has said with great respect, on the other hand I was informed that I was correct in making the Motion when I did. I am also informed that in another place the Motion was carried without any comment whatever.
§ LORD STUART OF WORTLEYThey had seen the Orders.
§ Discussion adjourned sine die.