HL Deb 18 December 1919 vol 38 cc427-36

FORMERLY

AGRICULTURE (COUNCILS, &c.) BILL.

Amendments reported (according to Order).

THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (LORD LEE OF FAREHAM)

The first two Amendments that are down in my name to Clause 5 and also the one which follows in the name of my noble friend Lord Bledisloe, have been put down to carry out what I understood was the undertaking that I gave to your Lordships on the last occasion that this Bill was before us. The effect of them would be that the Minister or Parliamentary Secretary will be entitled to attend any meeting of the Advisory Committee and also be entitled to act but not obliged to act as Chairman of the meeting, but without any power to vote. That is the effect of the Amendments which I hope carry out the undertaking that I gave to your Lordships.

Amendments moved— Page 3, line 10, leave out ("a councilor") and insert ("the advisory") Page 3, line 11, after first ("and") insert ("to") and leave out ("an ex officio member and").—(Lord Lee of Fareham.)

THE EARL OF SELBORNE

I am much obliged to the noble Lord, but I should like to know how he proposes to provide power for the council to elect its own chairman?

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

That is done under the regulations in the previous section.

LORD BLEDISLOE

I am satisfied with the amendments, and I presume that the noble Lord is prepared to accept mine to insert after "chairman" the words "ex officio."

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

I hope that my noble friend will see that his Amendment is superfluous, because it is obvious from the wording of the subsection that the President or the Parliamentary Secretary will act as chairman by virtue of his office and not as a member of the Committee. I think that it would be tautology to accept the noble Lord's Amendment.

LORD BLEDISLOE

I want it to be quite clear that the President or Parliamentary Secretary is there as President or Parliamentary Secretary to consult his advisers and not in any sense as a member of the Advisory Body.

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

I think that the wording carries that with it.

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

The next two Amendments in my name are consequential.

Amendments moved— Page 3, line 12, leave out ("and have a casting vote, but save as aforesaid") and insert ("but") Page 3, line 13, leave out ("council or").—(Lord Lee of Fareham.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

THE EARL OF SELBORNE

On behalf of my noble friend Lord Strachie, I move the two Amendments standing in his name.

Amendments moved— Page 3, line 22, leave out from ("annulled") to "it") in line 23. Page 3, line 24, after ("thereunder") insert ("or the making of a new regulation").—(The Earl of Selborne.)

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

I accept both of these Amendments.

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

The next Amendment on the Paper standing in my name to Clause 7 seeks to define the point which was under discussion in the Committee stage, and I hope that the form of words now proposed will cover all that we had in view.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 7, leave out ("or interest in agriculture") and insert ("agriculture or an interest in agricultural land").—(Lord Lee of Fareham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

The first Amendment on the Paper in my name to Clause 8 is drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 5, lines 39 and 40, leave out ("those Acts") and insert ("the Small Holdings and Allotments Acts, 1908").—(Lord Lee of Fareham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

In regard to the next Amendment in my name to Clause 8 I may say that I did not give an undertaking to vary this clause, but I was anxious to meet the point of my noble friend Lord Bledisloe and I put down this Amendment in order to limit the operation of this delegation to the period during which the Ministry is responsible for the expenditure. I hope that my noble friend will feel that this meets his point.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 42, at end insert ("until the thirty-first day of March nineteen hundred and twenty- six, notwithstanding that the exercise of such power has not been delegated to the sub-committee under this section").—(Lord Lee of Fareham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

The next Amendment in my name is drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 3, leave out from ("allotments") to end of subsection (3).—(Lord Lee of Fareham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM moved to insert the following new clause:—

"10. In this Act the expression 'agriculture' includes horticulture and forestry, and the expression 'rural industries' means local industries connected with agriculture."

The noble Lord said: This Amendment is another attempt at definition which I hope will meet the difficulties we felt on the Committee stage. I do not profess that the definition is really precise, but I do not think it is necessary for the purposes of the Bill that it should be, and I hope it will meet the criticisms which have been made.

Amendment moved— After Clause 9, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Lee of Fareham.)

LORD BLEDISLOE

As I was one of those who raised this question, I may say that, although the Amendment is not precise, in my judgment it is very ingenious.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM had on the Paper the following. Amendments to the First Schedule—

Page 7, leave out from the beginning of line 5 to ("in'') in line 6, and insert ("(a) Two members of each agricultural committee established by a council of a county and one member of each agricultural committee established by a county borough")

Page 7, line 17 to line 21, leave out paragraph (c), and insert as a new paragraph: (c) Thirty-six persons nominated by the Board of whom at least eight shall be representative of workmen engaged in agriculture, four owners of agricultural land, four tenants of such land, three women, six representative of the industry of horticulture, and three representative of agricultural education or research.

Page 7, line 24, leave out from ("each") to ("in") in line 25, and insert ("Agricultural Committee established by a council of a county and one member of each Agricultural Committee established by a county borough")

Page 7, line 38, leave out ("eleven") and insert ("twelve") and leave out from ("whom") to ("women") in line 40, and insert ("at least five shall be representative of workmen engaged in agriculture, two owners of agricultural land, two tenants of such land and two")

Page 8, line 3, leave out ("four") and insert ("five")

Page 8, line 7, leave out ("four") and insert ("five")

Page 8, line 11, leave out ("another") and insert ("one")

Page 8, line 12, leave out ("and a third") and insert ("one")

Page 8, line 13, at end insert ("one shall be an owner of agricultural land and one shall be a tenant of such land")

The noble Lord said: My Lords, we now come to the First Schedule. This is the most important section of the Bill, and there is a series of Amendments standing in my name which I should like your Lordships to discuss together, because they are intended to carry out, so far as I can ascertain them, the general views of the House as to the position of the councils and the advisory committees, so far as I am able to adopt them. It is hardly necessary that I should explain the different Amendments, but I think they carry out the undertaking that I gave to Lord Selborne and others of your Lordships who are interested in this matter.

THE EARL OF SELBORNE

We are greatly indebted to the noble Lord for the way in which he has carried out the undertaking he gave. I venture to think the Amendments are a great improvement in the Bill. There is one point that I should like the noble Lord to say something more about. I know that he clings very much to leaving the Wages Board to appoint six members themselves. I have always felt very doubtful about that; he knows the reason. I can only repeat my summary of the other day, that the Agricultural Wages Board has nothing to do with anything much except wages, and that this council will have nothing whatever to do with wages. Therefore it is not easy to see, on the face of it, why the statutory privilege of electing members to this council should be conferred on the Wages Board.

There is also the technical objection that the Wages Board is not a permanent institution at present. No doubt there will be a Wages Board of some kind which will become a permanent institution, though not necessarily in the same form. My third criticism is, if you do have six members of the Agricultural Wages Board, why limit the representation as stated? I can understand why you should say that the workmen should have three representatives, but I cannot understand why you should allow the Wages Board to elect one of the nominated members. I should greatly prefer that the whole of that sub-clause should be cut out, and those members added to the members nominated by the Board of Agriculture, leaving the President perfect discretion to nominate whom he feels disposed. I should like to hear what Lord Lee has to say about that. I have one purely verbal criticism to make. It is provided that thirty-six persons shall be nominated by the Board of whom at least eight shall be so-and-so; the words "at least" do not seem to be required there at all.

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

It covers all the people concerned under the section.

THE EARL OF SELBORNE

I should have thought it was not necessary to have those words.

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

I hope the noble Earl will not press his objection to the specific mention of the Agricultural Wages Board. I have given the most anxious consideration to this matter, and on the broadest possible grounds I attach immense importance to the mention of the Agricultural Wages Board. I cannot conceive of anything more fatal than that the Wages Board should be in any way detached from the general body of agricultural opinion. It cannot do the Board anything but good to keep it in the closest touch with purely agricultural questions, with all of which the question of labour is bound up although it may appear in the background. I have expressed this view strongly before; I feel it as strongly as ever, and I hope that my noble friend and your Lordships will allow this provision to stand. With regard to "at least," that is intended to cover not only the representation of workmen engaged in agriculture, but owners of agricultural land, tenants, women, the representation of horticulture, and the representation of agricultural education. My noble friend will observe that that accounts for only twenty-eight representatives, which leaves eight in hand for the Minister to meet the very point which Lord Selborne suggested where there is a deficiency in some other section.

THE EARL OF SELBORNE

Very well.

LORD BLEDISLOE

I also welcome this new scheme as an improvement on the one embodied in the original Bill as it came to this House. I hope that, even at the eleventh hour, the noble Lord opposite will reconsider this question of specifically referring to the Wages Board, because, first of all, they are a temporary body set up under a temporary statute. In the second place, there are no other institutions or organisations of agriculturists referred to, and stress is, for some reason or other, put upon this particular organisation whose sole function is to settle in private conference the standard of wages for the time being. It is quite obvious to me that those particular persons who come as representatives of the Wages Board in contradistinction to those who come as representing farmers or agricultural workers, will come there with the settled intention of referring specifically to wages questions. I cannot believe that is going to facilitate the work of the council or render the atmosphere of their deliberations calm, and I venture to think it is going for all time to bring these differences on the subject of wages as between employer and employed unnecessarily to the front.

This Wages Board is only another form of Trades Board. Trades Boards up to now have been set up only in such industries as are sweated on the one hand, and, on the other hand, have not had sufficient labour organisation to put the workers' point of view Agriculture, one is glad to think, is no longer a sweated industry, although I am afraid it was before the war, and so far from agricultural workers being unorganised, they are very well organised to-day, and their organisation would be perfectly capable, as in the case of other trade unions, of fighting their domestic battles with the employer. I hope this domestic question of wages between employer and employed will not for all time be dragged to the front in public discussions such as will take place at these council meetings, but will be matters of domestic discussion and conference as they are now, and as I hope they are going to be to a greater extent in the future, when the whole machinery of wages boards in agriculture comes to be scrapped and you leave it to the organisations of employers on the one hand and of workers on the other to settle these domestic questions. I hope the noble Lord will alter the words "tenants of such land," meaning, of course, tenants of agricultural land. Evidently he means to give proper representation to practical farmers, but a very large proportion of the most enlightened and progressive prac- tical farmers are no longer tenants, but have become owners of their farms. I venture to say that better words to effect this purpose would be "occupiers of such land" rather than "tenants of such land," so as not to rule out altogether the very cream of the agricultural profession, who have to a very large extent purchased their farms during the last few months.

I hope that the words "at least" will be either cut out or will reappear before each class of persons here referred to, because I am sure it is open to the construction which the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, put upon it. But may I point out that if by any chance in the future the Minister of Agriculture for the time being were to give the full representation that is open to him to give to the workers under this Schedule, without giving any fuller representation to the other interests concerned, it would be possible to have no less than twenty of the total thirty-six representing the workers in the industry, with a minority of sixteen all told of the other industries represented on this body. For that reason I hope that there will be some modification of this clause, if not now, then on the next stage of the Bill, so as to render it impossible for a Minister in the future—being a member possibly of a very different Government from this—to create a preponderance of agricultural workers to the disadvantage of the other interests which it is proposed should have full representation under this amended Schedule.

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

I attach great importance to the opinion of my noble friend, but I am sorry that I find myself in disagreement with him in regard to some of these points. I cannot withdraw the reference to the Agricultural Wages Board. I attach great importance to it as a principle, and I hope that my noble friend will not press his objection. But with regard to the question of tenant and occupier, I think he will see, on reflection, that the occupiers to whom he referred—those who are already also owners—will be eligible as owners, and will be included under the heading of "owners." I want to deal with the case of the tenant who is only a tenant, because it is felt that he should be represented and should be given separate representation. Those tenants who purchase their holdings and become owners will be eligible under the head of "owner," and I think that is sufficient provision. With regard to the words "at least" I am inclined to agree with my noble friend. I believe as a matter of strict legal drafting the words would cover all the classes referred to, but I confess that, reading it as an ordinary layman, it would appear only to apply to the first class. Therefore I am quite prepared, even if the words are superfluous, to insert the words "at least" before the classes specifically referred to in my Amendment.

LORD BLEDISLOE

With regard to the owners of single farms who used to be tenant farmers, I would point out that the representation of owners which obviously was intended originally to refer to a very different class would be all too small if it is intended to refer to those who own a single farm which they used to occupy as tenant farmers.

THE EARL OF SELBORNE

Will the noble Lord accept an Amendment after "Board" to insert "Provided that three of the number but no more shall be representatives of the workmen."

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

I am prepared to accept that. But I would suggest that the words would be a little less objectionable if we said "not more than three."

LORD BLEDISLOE

I move that "at least" be inserted before each of the clauses, that is "at least four owners of agricultural land, at least four tenants," and so on.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

If it is a point of substance let it be taken now, but as we are concerned with drafting it would be a little unfortunate for that to be taken now.

THE EARL OF SELBORNE

How would it be to put in the words "not less in each case than."

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

We can pass it now in its present form, and leave it to regulate on the Third Reading.

On Question, Amendments standing in the name of Lord LEE of FAREHAM agreed to.

LORD BLEDISLOE

I have a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 1, leave out ("Advisory Agricultural")and insert ("Agricultural Advisory")

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD BLEDISLOE

The next is really a drafting matter, my only object being to put in what I deem to be their proper place the owners and occupiers of agricultural land. I understand that the noble Lord would prefer the word "tenant" instead of "occupier," and, subject to that amendment, I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 10, after ("be") insert ("an owner and one shall be a tenant of agricultural land, and one shall be").—(Lord Bledisloe.)

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

I accept that.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD BLEDISLOE

The next Amendment, the last on the Paper; is purely drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 8, lines 14 and 15, leave out ("in equal numbers from representatives of") and insert ("representing respectively").—(Lord Bledisloe.)

LORD LEE OF FAREHAM

I accept the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Lee of Fareham.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Amendments moved— Line 2 of the new paragraph just inserted in page 7, lines 17 to 21, leave out ("at least") and insert ("not less than "). Line 3 of the new paragraph, after ("agriculture") insert ("not less than"). Line 4 of the new paragraph, after ("agricultural land") insert ("not less than"). Line 4 of the new paragraph, after ("such land") insert ("not less than"). Line 4 of the new paragraph after ("women'') insert ("not less than").—(Lord Lee of Fareham.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Amendments moved— Page 7, line 38, leave out ("at least") and insert ("not less than"). Page 7, line 38, before ("five") insert ("not less than") Page 7, line 39, after ("agriculture") insert ("not less than") Page 7, line 39, after ("agricultural land") insert ("not less than") Page 7, line 40, after ("land") insert ("not less than").—(Lord Lee of Fareham.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Moved, That the Bill do now pass.— (Lord Lee of Fareham.)

On Question, Bill passed and returned to the Commons.