Lords Sitting of 8 August 1919

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
COAL MINES BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 5) BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 6) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 4) BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No, 7) BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).

POLICE BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order).
Clause 4:
Power of Secretary of State to regulate pay, etc., of police forces.
4.—(1) It shall be lawful for the Secretary of State to make regulations as to the government, pay, allowances, pensions, clothing, expenses and conditions of service of the members of all police forces within England and Wales, and every police authority shall comply with the regulations so made.
(2) A draft of any regulations proposed to be so made as aforesaid shall be submitted to a
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council, consisting of the joint central committee or a deputation from the joint central committee of the Police Federation and representatives of the chief officers of police and police authorities selected for the purpose by the Secretary of State, after consultation with the county councils association and the association of municipal corporations, and before making the regulations the Secretary of State shall consider any representations made by such council.
LORD MONK BRETTON LORD MONK BRETTON moved, in subsection (1) of Clause 4, to leave out "government," and to insert "promotion, discipline, mutual aid." The noble Lord said: I owe some explanation to your Lordships for moving an Amendment on Third Reading. This is an Amendment which is for the most part promoted by the County Councils Association whom I represent. It is not particularly easy for a body corporate, particularly one which has its representatives all over the country, to keep track of a Bill that is passing through your Lordships' House so fast as this Police Bill, which has gone through its successive stages in four successive days. I gave notice of an Amendment yesterday, and was in conference with the noble Earl in charge of the Bill. After consulting with him and his official advisers, I put this Amendment off, in order that it should be submitted to the Secretary of State to ascertain whether he would accept it or not. The Amendment I wish to move is to leave out the word "government" and to insert other words.
When this Bill was in another place a Motion was made to omit the word "government" and Mr. Shortt, the Secretary of State, begged that it should not be pressed. He did so on three grounds. He said that he wished to have power for the Home Office to make Regulations as to disciplinary codes for the Police and Regulations as to the methods of promotion, and that he also wanted to standardise promotion from one force to another—from a smaller to a larger force—which could only be done by Regulation at a central source. In this Amendment we attempt to accomplish what the Secretary of State desires without the insertion of the word "government." The County Councils Association objects very much to the word "government" because it implies executive powers. I cannot conceive the word "government" without executive powers; and Mr. Shortt distinctly said in the House of Commons that he does not want executive powers. But if he wants to regulate promotion of policemen from one county to

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another it seems to me he is assuming executive powers. Supposing it is a case of Sergeant Jones, of Dorsetshire, being promoted to Inspector in Cornwall; that is a matter of executive, and if it comes under the word "government," then I submit he is using the word "government" for the purpose of obtaining executive powers.
I know where this word came from. It came from the old Police Act of eighty years ago, and it is rather dangerous to assume that the word "government" will not be taken more advantage of in this Bill than it was in 1839. It is a dangerous word, and I hope the noble Earl will consider whether it cannot be taken out. If the Government has executive powers with regard to the Police then the nationalisation of the Police is complete. On the Second Reading the noble Earl, Lord Jersey, told us that it was to carry out the recommendations of Lord Desborough's Committee. I should like to read to your Lordships what Lord Desborough's Committee says with regard to what practically means the nationalisation of the Police—
"The adoption of direct central control of the Police would be foreign to the constitutional principle to which we have referred, by which the preservation of law and order in this country is primarily the function of the proper local authority. It would alter the whole basis of the Police system and, in particular, would prejudice the intimate relations between the Police and the localities where they serve, which many experienced witnesses have regarded as one of the most desirable characteristics of the present system, and to which they attribute in great measure the happy relations which have existed between the Police and the general public in this country."
If, as I believe, the word "government" contains in it the germs of complete nationalisation, and if Mr. Shortt is not anxious to assume these executive powers, then I ask the Government to accept this Amendment which gives all that Mr. Shortt asked for in another place.
I would also call the noble Earl's attention to the fact that I have words at the end of my Amendment—"mutual help"—which, I think, strengthens the Home Secretary's powers in periods of difficulty in moving police from one part to another. That being so, I ask the noble Earl to accept the whole of this Amendment. If it is accepted it will mean a consequential Amendment in the last clause. That is perfectly clear and plain. I have not put
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it on the Paper because I thought the Home Office would do it.
Amendment moved—
Clause 4, page 2, line 27, leave out ("government") and insert ("promotion, discipline, mutual aid").—(Lord Monk Bretton.)
VISCOUNT SANDHURST: My Lords, I am sorry that my noble friend Lord Jersey is imperatively absent. He would have been able to deal more fully with the Amendment than my noble friend will expect me to deal. I am instructed that there is no objection to the insertion of the words "mutual aid," but I am also instructed by the Secretary of State to say that I cannot accept the omission of the word "government" and the insertion of the words "promotion, discipline." Section 3 of the County Police Act, to which the noble Lord has referred, empowers the Secretary of State to make rules with regard to the government of the County Police, and this clause in the Bill only extends this power to Borough Police. The rules did not apply to Borough Police, and therefore were of very little use. I may also point out that the local Borough Police authorities wish for this extension.
This power does not enable the Secretary of State to alter the statutory provisions as to the control of the Police by the local autuority, but it would be in the opinion of the Secretary of State undesirable to alter the wording in a way which may be held to limit the scope of the existing power, which is not confined to promotion and discipline. These terms were used only as examples by the Home Secretary. It is necessary that there should be power to deal with such matters as the organisation and duties of the several ranks, with a view of effecting the greatest degree of standardisation as recommended by the Desborough Committee, and to prescribe the books and records to be kept by the Police. These matters would not be covered by this clause as it is proposed to amend it, and it is important that the Secretary of State should have power to deal with them and with other matters of general Police organisation which may be the subject of subsequent recommendations by the Desborough Committee.
I can give this definite assurance, that only general regulations will be made, and that the clause cannot be used to transfer to Whitehall the control of the Police now

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exercised by Standing Joint Committees and by Watch Committee. Moreover, the clause itself provides for Police authorities being fully consulted before any regulations are made. With the exception of the words "mutual aid," to which I propose to agree, I therefore hope that my noble friend will not think it necessary to press his Amendment.
LORD MONK BRETTON: I am much obliged to the noble Viscount for his assurance, which I understand confines the powers of the Secretary of State under this clause to regulations, and explicitly excludes executive functions or interference either with the Standing Joint or Watch Committees. I am much obliged to the noble Viscount for what he has said. With regard to his remarks about "mutual aid," personally I think it is an excellent Amendment. I do not propose that on behalf of the County Councils Association, but I have put that in on my own authority. If the Government are prepared to accept it, I beg to move it.
VISCOUNT SANDHURST: I am able to accept that, as I said. Will the noble Lord therefore move?
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments moved—
Clause 4, page 2, line 27, after ("government") insert ("mutual aid").
Clause 14, page 5, line 19, after ("government") insert ("mutual aid").—(Lord Monk Bretton.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
VISCOUNT SANDHURST: I beg to move that the Bill do pass.
On Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

AGRICULTURAL LAND SALES (RESTRICTION OF NOTICES TO QUIT) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
VISCOUNT PEEL: My Lords, the Preamble says that this is "an Act to amend the law as to notices to quit given to tenants by owners of agricultural land prior to the sale of such land." The object of this Bill, which I may remind your Lordships was originally introduced
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by a private member in another place, is to deal with the situation that has arisen in consequence of the serving of notices to quit prior to the sale of agricultural estates, or on the completion of purchase. As your Lordships know, very large numbers of sales of agricultural estates are taking place at the present time, and the bulk of these sales occur during the summer months. The result is that tenants who have had notice to quit often find that they are kept in considerable uncertainty until the sale takes place, and afterwards, as to whether they will or will not have to leave their holdings. Many of these are Michaelmas tenancies, and when the land is bought by a private purchaser there is very little time between the sale and the expiry of the notice for the tenants to be able to find out whether or not the notice is to be a good notice and they are to leave their tenancies.
As your Lordships know very well, a great number of these sales are to syndicates, who of course only buy with the object of re-sale, and in that case it is even more difficult for the tenants to know whether or not they will have to leave their tenancies. This is being felt by farmers throughout the country as a legitimate grievance. Generally they are anxious to remain upon their holdings, and owing to the state of uncertainty they therefore cannot make arrangements some time before to move if necessary to other farms. This condition of uncertainty is obviously very bad for good agriculture.
The short effect of this Bill is that notices to quit are made void if the land is sold before the notice expires. The result of that will be that this land could not be sold with vacant possession. To that extent there will be a limitation on the freedom of sale. There is an exception to this general rule in Clause 3, which provided that "this Act shall not apply to a contract for sale to a Government Department or local authority for the purpose of providing small holdings or allotments, or for any other public purpose." I think the reason of that exception is clear, because where the Government is trying to obtain land for some immediate purpose it would be contrary to public policy for this delay to occur. Moreover, where a Government is obtaining land for housing or small holdings, or what not, it is obvious that the notice to quit will be valid, and therefore no such tension or uncertainty will exist and there will be no necessity to give pro

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tection. I think your Lordships will see that there is, owing to the large number of sales which are taking, place, a legitimate case for protection of tenants in the event of those sales to which I have alluded.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Viscount Peel.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, my noble friend has explained the purpose of the Bill so clearly that I have very little to add to what he has said. There have been a great many additional sales of land in the last few years, and personally I believe that is a very good thing. I think it is a very good thing that landed property should be disseminated into as many hands as possible, and also held by those who have capital adequately to equip and. maintain it, and not remain in the hands of those who are too impoverished to do so. But while I think that these sales are in no way contrary to the national interest., I do deplore, more than I can say, the custom which has grown up only in the last, few years of giving every tenant on the estate notice to quit before the sale. I think I am right in saying that such a thing was hardly known ten years ago, and certainly twenty years ago was wholly unknown. It has now become very customary, and it has had two deplorable effects.
The first is that it has given a feeling of insecurity in their tenure to a great number of occupiers of land, who were conscious that they had been doing their duty by the land and who had no wish to be disturbed or to break their relations with their landlords. In the second place, it has given most unwholesome facilities to syndicates to speculate in land. If land passes from its present owners to future owners We want it to go into the hands of men who as owners will feel responsible for the land and do their duty by it; but in too many cases land is bought by a syndicate who have no intention whatever of holding the land or fulfilling any responsibility towards it, but who simply use their temporary possession in order to sell the farms or portions of the farms at the greatest possible profit to themselves, a process which has still further increased the sense of insecurity and injustice on the part of existing occupiers.
As I understand this Bill, it is so devised that while it puts no impediment in the way of sale, it renders void a notice to quit given prior to the sale, so that the onus
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of giving the notice will no longer fall on the seller but will rest on the purchaser. As the notice cannot be given till the next, Michaelmas or Lady Day—whenever the tenancy commences—it may mean that the purchaser may have to wait for eighteen months or two years before he can get possession. That will, I venture to think, be a very strong deterrent to many of these syndicates. It will not suit them to hold the land so long, and they will be less keen on their speculation. Therefore on all grounds I welcome this Bill. I have expressed publicly on the platform, and I am glad to be able to express here, my very real sympathy with the occupiers of land in the position in which they have found themselves by the growth of this habit of giving wholesale notices to quit preceding the sale.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: I should like to ask a question. Assuming that the negotiations for sale had taken place, and that notice was given between then and the actual date of the sale, would the Bill apply in that case?
VISCOUNT PEEL: Yes; if the notice was given before the contract of sale.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: I mean if the contract was signed but the date of sale had not been reached?
VISCOUNT PEEL: If the contract were signed, it would apply.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

LABOURERS (IRELAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, this is a Bill which I think is non-contentious. It passed through all its stages in the House of Commons in a single sitting. Its effect is to extend the definition of "agricultural labourer" as applied to the housing question in Ireland from its present status in the Act of 1903, in order that men who are bona fide agricultural labourers may enjoy the privileges under the Labourers (Ireland) Act connected with rural housing. The parent Act limits the advantages of its operations to those earning 17 s. 6d. per-week, and this Bill extends the definition

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in order to allow the large class of agricultural labourers who are now earning over that sum to get the benefit of the Act.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Crawford.)
On Question. Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

HOUSING, TOWN PLANNING, ETC. (SCOTLAND) BILL.
House again in Committee (according to Order).
[The EARL OF KINTORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Duty of local authority to prepare housing schemes.
1.—(1) It shall be the duty of every local authority within the meaning of Part III of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890 (in this Act referred to as the principal Act), to consider the needs of their district with respect to the provision of houses for the working classes, and within three months after the passing of this Act, and thereafter as often as occasion arises, to prepare and submit to the Scottish Board of Health (in this Act referred to as the Board) a scheme for the exercise of their powers under the said Part III.
(2) A scheme under this section shall specify—

(a) the approximate number and nature of the houses which, in the opinion of the local authority, are required adequately to supply the needs of their district;

(b) the approximate number and the nature of the houses to be provided by the local authority, and wherever possible the average number of houses per acre;

(c) the approximate extent of land to be acquired and the localities in which land is to be acquired;

(d) the time within which the scheme or any part thereof is to be carried into effect;
and the scheme may contain such incidental, consequential, and supplemental provisions (including provisions as to the subsequent variation of the scheme) as may appear necessary or proper for the purpose of the scheme.

(3) The Board may approve any such scheme or any part thereof without modification or subject to such modifications as they think fit, and the scheme or part thereof when so approved shall be binding on the local authority; but if the Board consider the scheme inadequate they may refuse to approve the scheme and require the authority to prepare and submit to them an adequate scheme within such time as they may fix, or they may approve the scheme or part thereof subject to the condition that the authority prepare and submit to them a further scheme within such time as they may fix.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved, at the end of subsection (3), to insert "Provided that local authorities in preparing, and the Board in approving, any scheme shall take into account., and so far as possible preserve, existing erections of architectural, historic, or artistic interest, and shall have regard to the natural amenities of the locality." The noble Duke said: I do not wish to detain your Lordships un-necessarily—
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If the noble Duke would allow me I might shorten this discussion, unless he wishes to add an explanation. If he does, perhaps he will find it convenient to do so afterwards. I will inform him now that I am able to accept his Amendment, but I think he will appreciate that it is desirable that the Institute of Scottish Architects should be substituted for the Institute of British Architects. If the noble Duke will move it in that form I will accept it.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: The Architects' Institute does not come in here.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will move it as a separate Amendment when we come to the passage.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: I desire to point out that this Amendment is not the same as the one inserted in the English Bill. The English Bill referred the question for decision to architects. I was asked by the Scottish Office not to put it in that way in this Bill, because in Scotland we have a panel of architects, and a large number of bodies have taken their advice on this question. It is thought that the question of architects might be left out, because the bodies concerned are more likely to do what we desire without compulsion than by compulsion. There is one point of interest in this. I know that the local authorities are not the worst offenders. The worst offenders in this particular case are the Government. The Board of Agriculture in Scotland, in erecting houses, have put up not only structures which are monstrous in appearance but which are also bad in construction and design. I could inform your Lordships of one particular case on my property, and it is probably not so bad as many others. The Land Court, which is not particularly biassed in favour of land owners, have reported unfavourably on this, and have

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sympathised with the landowner, not only because these houses are inferior in structure but also because they are a great eyesore. As the Government have already set this bad example, it will make it very difficult to enforce local bodies to Fit up a better style of house and one more presentable.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 18, at end insert ("Provided that local authorities in preparing, and the Board in approving any scheme shall take into account, and so far as possible, preserve existing erections of architectural, historic, or artistic interest, and shall have regard to the natural amenities of the locality").—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 35, leave out ("have regard to") and insert ("make inquiry respecting and take into account").—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
On Question Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 2, 3, and 4 agreed 10.
Clause 5:
Power to recoup losses.
5.—(1) If it appears to the Board that the carrying out by a local authority of any scheme approved under section one of this Act, or the carrying out of a rehousing scheme in connection with a scheme made under Part I or Part II of the principal Act, including the acquisition, clearance, and development of land included in the last-mentioned scheme, and whether the rehousing will be effected on the area included in that scheme or elsewhere, or the carrying out of any scheme approved by the Board for the provision of houses for persons in the employment of or paid by a county council, has resulted or is likely to result in a loss, the Board shall, if the scheme is carried out within such period after the passing of this Act as may be specified by the Board with the consent of the Treasury, pay or undertake to pay to the local authority or county council, as the case may be, out of moneys provided by Parliament, such part of the loss as may be determined to be so payable by regulations made by the Board, with the approval of the Treasury, subject to such conditions as may be prescribed by those regulations. Such regulations shall provide that the amount of any annual payment to be made under this section shall—

(a) in the case of a scheme carried out by a local authority, be determined on the basis of the estimated annual loss resulting from the carrying out of any scheme or schemes to which this section applies, subject to the deduction therefrom of a sum not exceeding the estimated annual produce of a rate of four-fifths of one penny in the pound levied in the area chargeable with the expenses of such scheme or schemes; and

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(b) in the case of a scheme for the provision of houses for persons in the employment of or paid by a county council, be an amount equivalent to thirty per centum of the annual loan charges as calculated in accordance with the regulations on the total capital expenditure incurred by the county council for the purposes of the scheme

Provided that the regulations shall include provisions—

(i) for the reduction of the amount of the annual payment in the event of a failure on the part of the local authority or county council to secure due economy in the carrying out of a scheme, or otherwise to comply with the conditions prescribed in the regulations;

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved, in subsection (1) (i), after "carrying out," to insert "and administration."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will accept the Amendment of the noble Duke on this clause if he thinks there is any advantage in it. My own view is that the words "carrying out" would cover "administration," but if the noble Duke and those who are advising him have any doubt about the matter, I have no objection whatever to accepting the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 12, after ("out") insert ("and administration").—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved in subsection (1) (i), after "carrying out of a scheme" to insert "to charge sufficient rents." The noble and learned Lord said: This Amendment was inserted by this House in the English Bill on Report, and it ought of course, for uniformity, to be in this Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 12, after ("scheme") insert ("to charge sufficient rents").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 6 and 7 agreed to.
Clause 8:
Provisions as to assessment of compensation.
8.—(1) Where land included in any scheme made under Part I or Part II of the principal Act (other than land included in such a scheme only for the purpose of making the scheme efficient

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and not on account of the sanitary condition of the premises thereon or of those premises being dangerous or prejudicial to health) is acquired compulsorily, the compensation to be paid for the land, including any premises thereon which are in an insanitary condition or are dangerous or prejudicial to health as aforesaid, shall be the value at the time when the valuation is made of the land as a site cleared of buildings and available for development in accordance with the building regulations for the time being in force in the district:
Provided that if the scheme requires that provision shall be made for the re-housing of persons of the working classes on the land or part thereof, when cleared, or that the land, or part thereof, when cleared shall be laid out as an open space, the compensation payable to all persons interested in any land included in the scheme (other than as aforesaid), including any premises thereon which are in an insanitary condition or are dangerous or prejudicial to health as aforesaid, for their respective interests in such land or premises, shall be reduced by an amount ascertained in accordance with the rules set forth in the First Schedule to this Act.
(2) The provisions of sections twenty-one and forty-one of the principal Act shall cease to apply as respect, lands to which the provisions of this section apply in so far as such first-mentioned provisions are inconsistent or in conflict with the provisions of this section.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (1), at the commencement of the proviso, to leave out "the scheme requires that provision shall be made" and insert "in the opinion of the Board it is necessary that provision should be made by the scheme." The noble and learned Lord said: Amendment was moved by myself on Report on the English Bill. Its purpose is to make it clear that the question of clearing a site for re-housing should depend in the last resort on the Board.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, lines 31 and 32, leave out ("the scheme requires that provision shall be made") and insert ("in the opinion of the Board it is necessary that provision should be made by the scheme")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 9 to 14 agreed to.
Clause 15:
Powers of promoting and assisting public utility societies.
15.—(1) A local authority within the meaning of Part III of tire principal Act, or a county council, may promote the formation or extension of, or subject to the provisions of this section, assist a public utility society whose objects include the erection, improvement, or management of houses for the working classes.
(2) Any such local authority or county council with the consent of and subject to any regulations or conditions which may be made or imposed by the Board, may, for the assistance of such a society—

(a) make grants or loans to the society;

(b) subscribe for any share or loan capital of the society;

(c) guarantee or join in guaranteeing the payment of interest on money borrowed by the society or of any share or loan capital issued by the society;

on such terms and conditions as to rate of interest and repayment or otherwise and on such security as the local authority or council think fit, and notwithstanding the provisions of section four of the Industrial and Provident Societies Act, 1893, where local authority or county council assists such a society under this subsection, the local authority or council shall not be prevented from having or claiming, any interest in the shares of the society exceeding two hundred pounds.
(3) Any expenses incurred by a local authority under the provisions of this section shall be defrayed in the same manner as the expenses of the local authority under Part III of the principal Art, and the raising of money for the purpose of making grants or loans to or subscribing for the capital of a society under this section shall be a propose for which the authority may borrow under that Part of that Act.
(4) Any expenses incurred by a county council under this section shall be defrayed out of the general purposes rate, and the raising of money for the purpose of making grants or loans to or subscribing for the capital of a society under this section shall be a purpose for which the county council may borrow, subject to the provisions of section sixty-seven of the Local. Government (Scotland) Act, 1889: Provided that—

(a) notwithstanding anything contained in that Act, the ratepayers of a police burgh shall not be assessed by the county council for any such expenses and

(b) where money is borrowed by the county council for the purpose aforesaid, the maximum period for repayment shall be fifty years, and as respects money so borrowed "fifty years" shall be substituted for thirty years in subsection (2) of section sixty-seven of that Act.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert "and where such a society is desirous of erecting houses for the working classes which, in the opinion of the Board, are required, and the local authority of the area in which the houses are proposed to be built are unwilling to acquire land with a view to selling or leasing the same to the society, the county council on the application of the society, may for this purpose acquire land and exercise all the powers of a local authority under the Housing Acts in regard to the acquisition and disposal of land, and the

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provisions of those Acts as to the acquisition of land by local authorities within the meaning of Part III of the principal Act shall apply accordingly."
The noble Duke said: The point of this Amendment is to bring the Bill into line with the English Act. This Amendment provides that in the event of the local authority not agreeing to give the societies sufficient facilities there is to be an appeal to the county council. The great advantage of an appeal to the county council is that they are a larger body, and probably have rather broader views. The noble and learned Lord has met us in many things, and I do not wish unduly to press him, but I think there would be considerable advantage in this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 8, at end insert the said words.—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Duke has done me no less than justice when he says that I have made every effort to meet him in the Amendments which he and others have suggested. But I am bound to say I do not think this particular Amendment is one which he would be well advised in pressing. The noble Duke knows better than I do that there is a clear distinction between England and Scotland as regards the housing authorities, and this is not a case in which uniformity can be recommended, or even defended. In England, in the event of failure on the part of the ordinary housing authorities to prepare a housing scheme, the county council may be called upon to do so. In Scotland, in the event of failure by the local authority—which, as the noble Duke knows, is the town council in burghs and the district committee in counties which are divided into districts—the Board comes in.
It comes to this, in other words. In Scotland the county council has no place in housing except in the few cases where it is the normal local authority for housing. Accordingly, it would be quite inappropriate, and I think it would lead to the gravest practical inconvenience, that it should be called in as the appeal authority in the circumstances set forth by the noble Duke. Although it is very appropriate in the English Bill, from which the noble Duke has borrowed the language of this Amendment, it is the experience of the Scottish Office, which has lent a very sym
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pethetic ear to many of the noble Duke's Amendments, that this Amendment is not well advised.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: Perhaps the noble and learned Lord will not mind if I put down another Amendment for Report. He says that the county council has nothing to do with housing, but I am under the impression that the county council is the authority which must make any purchases of land, and so forth, and must hold the land.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think the noble Duke will find that a county council has no power of acquiring land for housing purposes. But perhaps between now and the Report stage the noble Duke will, if he wishes to carry the matter further, make a different proposal, which he might discuss with me.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 15 agreed to.
Clauses 16 to 19 agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after Clause 19, to insert the following new clause—
"Purchase of building materials from Government department.
". Subject to any conditions prescribed by the Board with the consent of the Treasury any bricks or other building materials which have been acquired by a Government department for the purpose of the erection or improvement of houses for the working classes, may during a period of five years from the passing of this Act be sold to any person who undertakes to use the same forthwith for the purpose of erecting or improving houses for the working classes and to comply with the said conditions at a price sufficient to cover the cost of replacement at the time of sale of the materials so sold."
The noble and learned Lord said: This is again what one may call a "conformity Amendment." The intention is to give some assistance to private enterprise in respect to any material that may be at the disposal of a Government Department. If it is right for England, it is right for Scotland.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, after Clause 19, insert the said new clause.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 20:
Relaxation of building regulations.
20.—(1) (a) Where in pursuance of a housing Scheme to which this section applies new buildings are constructed or public streets or roads are laid out and constructed in accordance with plans and specifications approved by the Board, the provisions of any building regulations shall not apply to the new buildings and new streets or roads carried out in pursuance of the scheme, so far as those provisions are inconsistent with the plans and specifications approved by the Board, and notwithstanding the provisions of any other Act any street or road laid out and constructed in accordance with such plans and specifications may be taken over and thereafter maintained by the authority responsible for the maintenance of public streets, roads, or highways in the district.
(b) Where the Board have approved plans and specifications which in certain respects are inconsistent with the provisions of any building regulations which are in force in the district in which the works are to be executed, any proposals for the erection therein of buildings and the laying out and construction of new streets or roads which do not form part of a housing scheme to which this section applies may, notwithstanding those provisions, be carried out if the local authority are satisfied that they will involve departures from such provisions only to the like extent as in the case of the plans and specifications so approved.
(2) Where the Board are themselves carrying a housing scheme into execution it shall not be necessary for the Board to obtain the authority of the local authority or the Dean of Guild Court for the construction of buildings, or for the laying out and construction of streets and roads as aforesaid.
(3) The housing schemes to which this section applies are schemes prepared or made by a local authority or by local authorities jointly under the Housing Acts, or by a public utility society or housing trust, and approved by the Board, and schemes prepared, made, or carried into execution by the Board under this Act.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "carried" [carried out in pursuance of the scheme"], and to insert "constructed and laid." The noble Duke said: This is really a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 11, leave out ("carried") and insert ("constructed and laid").—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (1) (b), after "local authority," to insert "or on appeal the Board." The noble and learned Lord said: This again is a "conformity Amendment."
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 26, after ("authority") insert ("or on appeal the Board").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (3), after "or housing trust," to insert "or by a county council or district board of control for the provision of houses for persons in their employment or paid by them." The noble and learned Lord said: This Amendment is a necessary one. It provides that a county council or district board of control who are carrying out schemes for housing their employees should have the same privileges with regard to the relaxation of by-laws as are conferred upon local authorities or public utility societies. It is a casus omissus, and clearly ought to be inserted.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 47, after ("trust") insert the said words.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 20, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 21:
Consent of local authority to erection and use of buildings.
21.—(1) Notwithstanding the provisions of any building regulations a local authority may, during the period of three years after the passing of this Act, consent to the erection and use for human habitation of any buildings erected or proposed to be erected in accordance with plans and specifications approved by the Board.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH formally
moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "plans and specifications approved," and to insert "any regulations made."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I accept that Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, lines 5 and 6, leave out and insert the said words.—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 21, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 22 agreed to.
Clause 23:
Penalty on re-letting or occupying house ordered to be closed.
23.—(1) If the owner of any house in respect of which a closing order is in force or any other person lets or attempts to let or occupies or permits to be occupied that house or any part thereof as a dwelling-house, he shall, on summary conviction, be liable to a penalty not exceeding twenty pounds.
(2) The owner of any such house shall not, without the consent of the local authority, let or use the same for any purpose unless he shall previously have obtained the consent of the local authority to the purpose for which such house is proposed to be let or used, and any owner acting in contravention of this subsection shall, on summary conviction, be liable to a penalty not exceeding twenty pounds.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "without the consent of the local authority." The noble and learned Lord said: This is a drafting Amendment, the words I propose to exclude being redundant. Your Lordships will see, looking at the next two lines of the clause, that there is an express provision that the owner before letting his house must obtain the consent of the local authority.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, lines 6 and 7, leave out ("without the consent of the local authority").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 23, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 24:
Repair of houses.
24.—(1) If the owner of any house suitable for occupation by persons of the working classes fails to keep such house in all respects reasonably fit for human habitation, then, without prejudice to any other powers, the local authority may serve a notice in writing upon the owner of such house requiring him within a reasonable time, not being less than twenty-one days specified in the notice, to execute such works as may be necessary to make the house in all respects reasonably fit for human habitation.
(2) If the notice of the local authority is not complied with the authority may, at the expiration of the time specified in the notice given by them to the owner, do the work required to be done, and may recover the expenses incurred by them from the owner, and for that purpose the provisions of subsections (5) and (6) of section fifteen of the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Act, 1909, with respect to the execution of works and the recovery of expenses by local authorities and with respect to the landlords' right of appeal shall apply as if the owner were the landlord, and with such other adaptations as may be necessary.
(3) In this section "owner" shall have the same meaning as in the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897.
(4) This section shall be deemed to be part of Part II of the principal Act.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert "provided that if such house is not capable without reconstruction of being rendered fit for human habitation, the owner may, within twenty-one days after the receipt of such notice by written notice to the local authority, declare his intention of closing the house for human habitation, and thereupon a closing order shall be deemed to have become operative in respect of such house. Any question arising under this proviso shall in case of difference between the owner and the local authority, be determinded by the sheriff." The noble and learned Lord said: This is a "conformity Amendment" to the English Bill, and the next Amendment is in the same category.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 21, at end, insert the said proviso.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (2), to delete "at the expiration of the time specified in the notice given by them to the owner" and to insert—

"(a) At the expiration of the time specified in that notice if no such notice as aforesaid has been given by the owner; and

"(b) At the expiration of twenty-one days from the determination by the sheriff if such notice has been given by the owner, and the sheriff has determined that the house is capable without reconstruction of being made fit for human habitation."

Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 23, leave out from ("may") to ("do") in line 24, and insert the said paragraphs,—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 24, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 25 to 30 agreed to.
Clause 31:
Duty of local authority to prepare town-planning scheme.
31. The council of every burgh, the population of which exceeds twenty thousand, and any other local authority if required by the Board, shall, within three years after the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-three, prepare and submit to the Board a town-planning scheme in accordance with provisions to be determined by the Board with reference to any land within the area of the local authority in regard to which a town-planning scheme may be made under the housing, Town Planning, etc., Act, 1909.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I accept the first two Amendments standing in the name of the Duke of Buccleuch.
Amendments moved—
Page 20, line 12, after ("which") insert ("on the first day of January nineteen hundred and twenty-three")
line 13, after ("exceeds'') insert ("according to the last census for the time being'').—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved to leave out "and any other local authority if required by the Board."
Amendment moved—
Page 20, lines 13 and 14, leave out the said words.—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This is a substantive Amendment, which I am certainly unwilling to accept. If the noble Duke intended to make the wording of the clause identical with the English clause, I do not think he has succeeded in his intention, because that clause contains after the words "twenty thousand" the words "or of a district council." It would be absurd to add the equivalent of those words to our clause. The corresponding words are "or of a district other than a burgh." It would be absurd for this reason, that the great majority of districts other than burghs do not require town planning, and the right thing to do is to leave it to the discretion of the Board to decide which of such districts should be town planned. It seems to me that the words ought to remain in the Bill, and I myself cannot see any good reason fur excluding them.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: I know there is a difficulty in this point, but perhaps if I do not press the Amendment I can put down another on Report, when I see all the other alterations in.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If the noble Duke is going to do that, perhaps he will allow me to suggest that it would be necessary to make a consequential Amendment to my Amendment to Clause 31, page 20, line 18, leaving out the second "the" and inserting "such council or other." But I deprecate the whole Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: The next Amendments are merely drafting.
Amendments moved—
Page 20, line 14, leave out from ("after") to ("prepare'') in line 15 and insert ("that date")
lines 16 and 17, leave out ("in accordance with provisions to be determined by the Board").—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is purely drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 18, leave out the second ("the") and insert ("such council or other").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is a case of conformity.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 20, at end insert the following new subsections:
"(2) Without prejudice to the powers of the council or other local authority under the said Act, every scheme to which this section applies shall deal with such matter as may be determined by regulations to be made by the Board.
"(3) Every regulation so made shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament as soon as may be after it is made and if an address is presented by either House within twenty-one days from the date on which that House has sat next after such regulation is laid before it, praying that such regulation may be annulled. His Majesty in Council may annul the regulation but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 31 as amended agreed to.
Clause 32:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The two Amendments on this clause are cases of conformity.
Amendments moved—
Page 20, line 21, after ("satisfied") insert ("after holding a public local inquiry")
line 22, after ("authority") insert ("as respects any land in regard to which a town planing scheme may be made under the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Act, 1909").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 32, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 33 agreed to.
Clause 34:
Amendment moved—
Page 22, after line 20, insert the following new subsection:
"(2) Subsection (2) of section fifty-six of the Act of 1909 shall have effect as if the following paragraph were added thereto:
"For securing that the council of the county in which any land proposed to be included in a town planning scheme is situated (1) shall be furnished with a notice of any proposal to prepare or adopt such a scheme and with a copy of the draft scheme before the scheme is made, and (2) shall be entitled to be heard at any public local inquiry held by the Board in regard to the scheme."—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I accept this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 34, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 35 to 46 agreed to.
Clause 47:
Farmed-out houses.
47. It shall be lawful for the town council of any burgh to apply to the Board for an order declaring that the provisions of Part II of the Glasgow Corporation Order, 1918 (which relate to fanned-out houses), shall apply to the burgh, and the Board, if they are satisfied after such inquiry, if any, as they may think fit, that the circumstances and conditions of the burgh are such that it is desirable that those provisions should apply thereto, may make an order so applying such provisions, with such modifications and adaptations as may appear to the Board to be necessary or desirable, and as from a date to be prescribed in the order of the Board, the said provisions as so modified or adapted shall as respects that burgh have effect as if they were enacted in this Act.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out "town council" at the beginning of the clause, and to insert "local authority." The noble and learned Lord said: As Part IV of the Bill is not to be read as part of the Housing Acts, it is necessary to make it clear what is meant by the term "local authority," which is used in certain of the clauses, and is intended to cover both the town council of a burgh and the local authority of a district other than a burgh—that is to say, the district committee. The present clause applies only to burghs, and accordingly the expression "town council" was inadvertently used. As it is proposed to use the expression "local authority" in all
656
clauses and to insert a new clause defining what is meant by that term, this Amendment ought to be made.
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 7, leave out ("town council") and insert ("local authority").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 47, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 48 agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after Clause 48, to insert the following new clause—
"() In this Part of this Act the expression 'local authority' means the local authority for the purposes of the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897."
The noble and learned Lord said: This is the definition clause to which I referred a moment ago. It supplies a uniform definition which will be most useful.
Amendment moved—
Insert the said new clause.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
First Schedule agreed to.
Second Schedule:
Amendment moved—
Page 32, line 47, at beginning insert ("The words 'out of their own number' shall be omitted. After the words 'provided that a committee so appointed shall' there shall be inserted the words consist as to a majority of its members of members of the appointing local authority and shall' and ").—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I accept this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: I desire to express my thanks to the noble and learned Lord for the way in which he has treated my Amendments.

GOVERNMENT OF THE SOUDAN LOAN BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
GOVERNMENT WAR OBLIGATIONS BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

WEST INDIAN COURT OF APPEAL BILL.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF KINTORE in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 to 6 agreed to.
Clause 7:
Saving for jurisdiction of Privy Council.
7. Subject to any provision which may be made by the Legislature of any colony to which this Act for the time being applies, whereby appeals from any court in that colony are to be made to the Court of Appeal, nothing in this Act shall prejudice or affect the right of any person to appeal to His Majesty in Council.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after "made" ["to be made to the Court of Appeal"], to insert. "in the first instance." The noble and learned Lord said: This is a drafting Amendment due to the vigilance of my noble and learned friend Lord Dunedin, who detected the omission. These words ought to have been inserted in the original draft, and I am much indebted to my noble and learned friend for pointing out the discrepancy.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 2, after ("made") insert ("in the first instance").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.

WELLS PARTICULAR BAPTIST AND CONGREGATIONAL CHAPELS CHARITIES BILL.
NATIONAL TRUST CHARITY BILL.
BROOKE ROBINSON MUSEUM CHARITY BILL.
CONGREGATIONAL CHAPELS CHARITIES BILL.
EATINGTON WESLEYAN METHODIST CHAPEL PROPERTY BILL.
PLUMTRE HOSPITAL CHARITY BILL.
HEADCORN BAPTIST CHAPEL CHARITY BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn until three o'clock on Monday. The Report stage oft he Transport Bill will be the first Order on Monday.
PRIVATE BILLS.
[From Minutes of August 7.]
LEICESTER CORPORATION BILL.
THE CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The Order made on the 31st of July last discharged, and Bill committed for Wednesday next.
GAS AND WATER PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.

BOLAND'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
Minutes of Evidence and Proceedings before this House on the Second Reading, together with the documents deposited in the case, returned from the Commons.
House adjourned at four o'clock until Monday, three o'clock.