Lords Sitting of 14 April 1919

SUNDERLAND GAS BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MANSFIELD RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a and passed, and sent to the Commons.

CRIMINAL INJURIES (IRELAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD BIRKENHEAD): My Lords, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill it is, perhaps, convenient that I should do so in a little more detail than considerations of time rendered practicable in another place. I may tell your Lordships quite shortly the objects of this Bill. Then, as it seems to me, it is desirable that I should explain the reasons which, in the opinion of the Government, render it necessary that such a Bill should be introduced and passed into law with the least avoidable delay. Many years ago an Act was passed the short effect of which may be stated in popular language. It was to secure that any constable who, in the execution of his duty of bringing a criminal in Ireland to justice, sustained injury, should receive—or his widow should receive if the sequel were unhappily fatal—pecuniary compensation.
For many years that Act was broadly construed, but it came ultimately to be construed before the Irish Court of Appeal, and that Court adopted a somewhat narrow construction. The effect of their interpretation of the Act was that unless the constable or officer in question had been actually and directly engaged on matters which affected the prosecution, the compensation was not payable. The ten peaceful years which came to an end in 1906 presented no great number of cases in which the narrowness of this construction caused hardship or attracted attention, but it is at the present time—for reasons with which I shall eventually trouble your Lordships—desirable that a construction so harsh to the officers concerned, and, to speak plainly, so intolerable in the present
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circumstances in Ireland, should be removed. The object, therefore, of the Bill for which I ask a Second Reading to-day, is to secure in the most general way that every officer, constable, and servant of the law who is injured, or whose life may be destroyed as the result of assassination or other violence in the execution of his duties shall, if he survive, receive compensation, or, if his injuries be fatal, his widow and family shall receive compensation.
It is, indeed, a melancholy circumstance that there should exist to-day a need so pressing for legislation of this class. It is very desirable that your Lordships should fairly understand bow great that need is, and it is also not undesirable that it should be generally known in other countries that this need at this moment is great. I make this observation because it is not uncommon to-day to hear it said, even in Allied and friendly countries, even sometimes in our own Dominions, that we are greatly to blame in this country because our statesmanship has not been able to compose and bring to an end the mischiefs and the difficulties which have been so familiar and so melancholy a chapter in the history of the relationship between Ireland and this country. Those who criticise us should at least—if I may say so with, I hope, all humility—be very careful to be sure that they have completely appreciated the real nature of the problem with which we have to deal in Ireland.
I am not concerned with the historical examination of, perhaps, the most disputable chapter in the whole of history, and the limited nature of the Bill for which I ask a Second Reading to-day would certainly afford neither warrant nor justification for making that attempt; but the state of affairs that exists to-day in Ireland (and which it will be my duty shortly to explain) is enough, I think, if carefully considered by our critics, to justify them in a little more caution in some of the criticisms which they make. What is the state of affairs in Ireland to-day? I am, I hope, studiously anxious to avoid the language of exaggeration. Your Lordships are generally familiar with the result in Ireland at the last General Election—it was, with the exception of the Ulster counties, whose views are well known to your Lordships, to place in power all over Ireland the Sinn Fein party. The views of the Sinn Fein party are well known.

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They have been frequently expressed. Side by side with the Sinn Fein party and its political leaders there exists an organisation of a semi-military character—the Volunteer movement. The Volunteer movement is directly encouraged by the Sinn Fein leaders, and it is very desirable that your Lordships should clearly understand the propaganda which is being carried on in Ireland to-day, not only without a word of protest from any of the leaders of the Sinn Fein party, but apparently, so far as one can judge, with their entire approval.
In a district which was recently proclaimed—and for extremely adequate reasons—by the British Government, on the day that the Official Proclamation was published there appeared in thousands upon the walls the following counter-proclamation. I will read the material paragraphs, not troubling your Lordships with them all—
Whereas, a foreign and tyrannical Government is preventing Ireland exercising the civil right of buying and selling in their own markets in their own country; and
Whereas, many Irishmen have been and are being daily arrested and (on flimsy pretexts—often no charge at all being preferred) sentenced to "savage" terms of brutal imprisonment; and
Whereas, almost every Irishman who has suffered the death penalty for Ireland was sentenced to death solely on the strength of the evidence and reports of policemen, who, therefore, are dangerous spies; and
Whereas, the thousands of Irishmen who have been deported and sentenced solely on the evidence of these same hirelings and assassins, and traitorous spies—the police; and…
Whereas, there are a few Irishmen who have sunk to such depths of degradation that they are prepared to give information about their neighbours and fellow-countrymen to the police; and
Whereas, all these evils will continue just so long as the people permit,
We hereby proclaim the South Riding of Tipperary a military area with the following regulations:—

(a) A policeman found within the said area on and after the—day of February, 1919, will be deemed to have forfeited his life; the more notorious
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police being dealt with as far as possible first.

(b) On and after the—day of February, 1919, every person in the pay of England (magistrates, jurors, &c.) who helps England to rule this country, or who assists in any way the upholders of the foreign government of this South Riding of Tipperary will be deemed to have forfeited his life.

(c) Civilians who give information to the police or soldiery, especially such information as is of a serious character, if convicted will be executed: i.e., shot or hanged.

This was the nature of the counter-proclamation, which bore evidence of careful organisation and of considerable pecuniary resources, and it was exhibited on the walls throughout the district in question.
I have an extract here—I have spoken of the Volunteer movement—from the Volunteer Orders, which may not be without interest to your Lordships. They were found on the body of Timothy Dwyer, who was sentenced by Court-Martial to fifteen months' imprisonment on March 13, 1915—
The Companies at Dundrum, Clonoulty, Annacarty, and Golden should be responsible for their respective Barracks. Shot-gun men under cover should cover windows whilst stormers smash in doors. No mercy to resisters. Burn Barracks. Use gelignite bombs if procurable.
This is not an isolated case. A newspaper enjoying a very large circulation is being published in Ireland called An Toglac. Such is the completeness of the organisation that hitherto it has not been found possible to discover where it is printed. Wherever copies have been found they have, of course, been destroyed, and while every effort has been made to discover the printers, so far, unfortunately, they have been without success. This paper is circulating in thousands of copies in Ireland to-day, and this is a typical extract from it—
It is the will of Ireland, expressed by her responsible Government, that a state of war between this country and England shall be perpetuated until the foreign garrison have evacuated our country. It will be the duty of the Volunteers, acting in accordance with the will of our Government and the wishes of the Irish people, to secure the

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continuance of that state of war by every means at our disposal and in the most vigorous way practicable. Every Volunteer must be prepared for more drastic actions, more strenuous activities, than ever before since Easter, 1916. As has several times been stated before, Volunteer officers must contemplate the possibilities of offensive as well as defensive action.
Such is the propaganda which to-day is being extensively carried out in Ireland.
It is only fair to add that the activity is by no means of an academic character. The admonitions which have been so generously administered have certainly borne fruit; and the matter is so important that I ask your Lordships' indulgence while I call attention to a few cases that have occurred during the last eleven months which illustrate the reign of violence in relation to police constables which at the present moment exists in Ireland. I am glad to do this in justice to these men, and in order that your Lordships may appreciate the heroism and the dauntlessness with which they continue to carry out their duties. The risks which these men run are not the risks of soldiers in the heat of action, going into battle with their battalion. They are the risks run by one or two men together in lonely and hostile districts, and becoming the victims of a cowardly assailant from behind a hedge. On April 17 Constable McLaughlin, whilst making an arrest, was struck on the head with a bottle and rendered an invalid for many months. On July 13, in King's County, Sergeant Lacy was fired at and wounded in the arm and leg while carrying out orders to remove a Sinn Fein flag from a tree. In the same month, in Galway, while two constables were following three men who had been firing at a house, one of the men turned round and fired a shot wounding one of the constables seriously in the stomach and right arm. In May, in Roscommon, while arresting a man named Kelly for having arms, a constable was fired at and wounded in both thighs. In the same month three shots were fired from behind a bush at Constable St. Johns while returning from train duty. He was gravely wounded in the face and neck. In July, in County Cork, two gun shots were fired into the dormitory of the Glountane Police Barracks, breaking forty panes of glass and doing other damage. On November 1,
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again in County Cork, the house of Constable Ryan was twice attacked during the night by an organised mob of Sinn Feiners, who broke the windows and furniture with stones. In County Limerick, in June, letters were received by the D.I. at Newcastle threatening death to Constable Kelly if he was not removed from Newcastle West, on the ground that he had incurred the displeasure of the Sinn Feiners. In County Donegal, on August 15, a crowd attacked the Middletown Constabulary Barracks on the occasion of the arrest of a military deserter. In County Kilkenny, on May 12, notices were posted all over the town inciting the population to murder two policemen, who were mentioned by name, because they had incurred the hostility of the Sinn Feiners; and in the following month there were four or five grave instances of firing at and wounding constables.
I could, of course, give your Lordships many more details, but I think I have said enough to show that there is at the present moment in a large part of Ireland a determined attempt to carry out a policy of making English Government impossible, and to cow by methods of assassination those men who are doing their duty to this country and attempting, as far as their power enables them, to maintain authority and respect for law and order. These happenings are not limited to a particular part of Ireland. They do not of course, for evident reasons, apply to Ulster, but they are found sporadically over all the rest of Ireland. It may be that some of your Lordships who took a strong view in the past, and perhaps hold that view to-day, that that province in Ireland which is and has been law-abiding ought not to be placed under the control of those parts of Ireland in which these events are happening, may derive some confirmation from the facts I have placed before you to-clay. Of this I am sure—the resolute determination in this House, as in the House of Commons, that the men who, exposed daily and nightly to these risks, are doing their duty shall be protected by the whole forces of this country, and that if they fall in the course of doing their duty—if they become the victims of that cowardly and organised attempt at assassination and intimidation the records of which I have placed before your Lordships—they or their dependants shall be sufficiently compensated.
The proposals of this Bill are that the district in which these assassinations or outrages take place, and the district whose active or tacit acquiescence in them alone make it possible that these malefactors should escape detention, shall adequately compensate these men if they be only wounded, or shall make compensation in the form of a pension to their widows and families if they be killed. I think that I have said enough upon this most grave matter to satisfy your Lordships that there is every reason, as the House of Commons thought when the matter was before them, that this Bill should be carried through with the least possible delay. I beg to Move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I do not rise to make any long observations to your Lordships. The important speech to which we have listened will, I hope, attract the attention which it deserves. The noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, speaking in terms of which the obvious intention is apparent, has informed your Lordships of the present state of Ireland, and has spoken of the vital necessity for a demonstration by this country of its determination to stand by the servants of the law in the execution of their duty. I need not assure the noble and learned Lord that he will find your Lordships' House most ready to render the Government every assistance in the performance of that duty. We have realised for a very long time the condition of affairs in Ireland, and we have marked with the deepest regret its progress from depth to depth in disorder. The mere fact that the disorder is restrained does not, of course, deceive us as to the real condition of things there. The noble and learned Lord has read out example after example of attacks upon the Constabulary, and he has explained to your Lordships, what I believe every one of you already knew, the extremely difficult conditions under which these devoted men of the Royal Irish Constabulary perform their duties. All honour to them. They will find that their loyal countrymen in all parts of the United Kingdom will come forward to support them I am very glad that the noble and learned Lord has spoken in the terms that he has used, and I hope that it will be made perfectly clear that these men may defend themselves—and they ought to be allowed
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to defend themselves—when attacked, and that if anything happens to them, then the provisions of this Bill will be used and they will be compensated, or, if unfortunately the attack upon them ends fatally, that due compensation will be given to their widows and families. I am quite certain that the Government will find every desire on our part to forward the progress of this Bill with all due despatch.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I certainly do not rise to take any exception to the proposals of this Bill, commended as they have been by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. No one who has had to do, as I have, with the government of Ireland—although it was a long time ago—can fail to appreciate the loyalty and devotion of the Royal Irish Constabulary. Their services, as the noble and learned Lord said, are often rendered in circumstances of exceeding difficulty and danger, of almost unsupported loneliness in wild districts, and also in some places they meet with a uniformly hostile population. It is hardly possible to say too much of the Royal Irish Constabulary. Certainly it is quite impossible for anybody to do so who has had the opportunity of watching their daily work, as I did for three years.
The noble and learned Lord travelled somewhat outside the special purpose of the Bill in order to make a speech on the general condition of Ireland; I have no desire to follow him closely upon that line; but I think that his knowledge of Ireland is, perhaps, somewhat partial and recent, and that, though I am far from supposing that he exaggerates the gravity of the present situation, he may somewhat exaggerate its novelty. There has always been a party of violence in Ireland, and I am not quite sure, as regards the actual perpetrators of violence and those who are prepared to engage in it, that the numbers are much greater now than they have been in the past. What has happened is that the political sympathisers with these extremists have swung, so to speak, further to the left, and become more prominent and even less inclined than they were to support the cause of order. There has always been, as I say, a body of violent extremists. I was not myself in Ireland at the time of the Invincible Conspiracy, but I had occasion to note the whole history of that conspiracy owing to the fact that as Lord-Lieutenant it became my duty to look into practically all the

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important cases of the men engaged in it who were still in confinement. Those men have their counter-parts in the class of persons who now engage in these murderous acts of which the noble and learned Lord has spoken in terms not too strong.
Equally in the days when I was in Ireland attacks upon the police, then more often in agrarian cases, were exceedingly frequent. Policemen were murdered in the streets of Dublin in my time; and so it has been, with certain specific intervals, all through. Even during the agrarian agitation the worst cases were not the outcome of local agrarian disturbance, but proceeded from secret society centres. I remember that I had myself the distinction, if it be a distinction, of being burned in effigy in the county of Kerry because I had refused to commute the death sentence on the perpetrator of a particularly brutal agrarian murder who was a noted secret society man in all the southern and western counties of Ireland.
Those cases have always existed, and they are now, I have no doubt, more numerous owing to the political situation. How that political situation is to be met, or whether it can be met, is not a proper subject of discussion on a Bill of limited reference like this. I have no desire to go into the whole story of political agitation in Ireland—about which, after all, the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack himself knows something—or to discuss the merits and demerits either of the Ulster agitation or of the Southern agitation. All that would be completely out of place. So far as this particular Bill is concerned, I am glad that those brave and devoted men who suffer in the cause of duty and their families should receive due compensation, and I have no doubt that the Bill will pass into law, as I should hope, without amendment.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I shall move to-morrow that Standing Order No. XXXIX be suspended in respect to this Bill.

WAR CHARITIES (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the consideration of Commons Amendments, read.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
Clause 1:
Line 10, leave out from ("may") to the end of line 11 and insert (''frame a scheme")
Lines 15 and 16, leave out ("and that either in pursuance of a scheme to be administered") and insert ("either")
Lines 16 and 17, leave out ("way of transfer to")
Line 17, after ("society") insert ("or local authority")
Line 18, leave out ("subject to such conditions as the Board think fit") and insert ("to whom the scheme may propose to transfer the funds or property. The Local Government Board for Scotland may, after taking such steps as they think fit to ascertain the wishes of the subscribers to the funds or property, where reasonably practicable sanction such scheme, or any amended scheme, submitted by the committee or governing body,")
Line 19, at end insert ("Provided that where, in the opinion of the Board, the value of the funds or property exceeds one thousand pounds, the scheme shall be laid before each House of Parliament forthwith, if Parliament be sitting, or, if not, within one month after the commencement of the next ensuing session of Parliament, and if such scheme shall be disapproved by either House of Parliament within one month, exclusive of any period of prorogation, after the scheme has been laid before it the said scheme shall be void and of no effect, but without prejudice to the framing of a further scheme.")
LORD STANMORE: I hope that your Lordships will agree to accept the Commons Amendments to this Bill. They were moved at the instance of the Government to meet the views expressed in the House of Commons (1) that subscribers and others interested should have an opportunity of stating their views as to the disposal of balances dealt with under the Bill, and (2) that there should be some form of Parliamentary control. The Amendments were accepted on all sides as satisfactory. The result of these Amendments is that, where it is reasonably practicable so to do (keeping in view the amount of the balance and how the funds were subscribed) the Local Government Board must take steps to ascertain the wishes of the subscribers, and in case of balances of £1,000 or more the scheme for disposal must be laid before both Houses of Parliament, and, if disapproved by either House, the scheme will not take effect. I beg to move that these Amendments be agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Stanmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

NAVAL, MILITARY, AND AIR FORCE SERVICE BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXXIX be dispensed with.—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Bill read 3a, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

ARMY (ANNUAL) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
LOCAL ELECTIONS (EXPENSES) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order) with the Amendment; Bill passed and returned to the Commons.
PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (SOLDIERS) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

GOVERNMENT WORKS AT SLOUGH.
Message from the Commons, That they have appointed a Committee to join with a Committee of this House to inquire into the conditions under which the Government works at Cippenham are being carried out, the cost that is involved, and the responsibility for the advice on which the scheme was undertaken.
Moved, That a Committee of Five Lords be appointed to join with the Committee of the Commons, and that the Lords following be named of the Committee—

E. Russell.

L. Clinton.

L. Kintore (E. Kintore).

L. Denman.

L. Faber.

—(The Lord Chancellor.)
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: My Lords, I am sure that nobody on this side or in any part of the House would wish to raise any discussion on the names. But I should like to ask the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack whether, as this Committee was unable to be appointed and cannot sit before Easter, it is the intention of the Government that all the work should
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proceed exactly as if the Committee had not been appointed at all; and whether he would use his influence to induce the War Office to avoid entering into any fresh contract for the Minister of Munitions and Supply, or whoever is in charge, and to take on no fresh men during the period before the Committee has had time to consider the situation. That is one point. I should also be very glad if we might hear from the noble and learned Lord whether the Government still adhere to their determination to keep the whole vast mass of £15,000,000's worth of spare parts and motors for their own service at a time when the whole of the motor industry is demanding these spare parts, and the whole question of facilitating that part of the trade of the country is hung up.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Viscount will, I am sure, understand that it would be hardly practicable, not having been apprised that such an inquiry would be addressed to me, for me to give him any satisfactory answer; but I will at least assure the noble Viscount of this—that I will see that the representations which he has embodied in the form of these two questions are both carefully and accurately conveyed to the War Office. If the noble Viscount desires anything further, I think I shall have to ask him to put a Question to-morrow.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: The noble and learned Lord will probably understand that we have credited the Government, in proposing this Committee, with having taken careful cognisance of the condition of the scheme; and it occurred to me as certain that the members of the War Cabinet and the noble and learned Lord would have been apprised of the intention of the Government in so important a question as this in proposing such a Committee.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am not quite sure that I follow the noble Viscount exactly. This Motion was on the Paper contingently two or three days ago, and the noble Viscount must forgive me for pointing out that it would have been very easy for him, as the Motion stood in my name, to point out to me three days ago that he intended to raise the very practical question to-day as to whether or not the policy of the Government was that in the meantime, while the Inquiry was being

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prosecuted, these works should be discontinued. If it had occurred to the noble Viscount to mention that he intended to raise that very important point, I should have been very careful to arm myself with information, and it would have been very easy to do so. The noble Viscount did not take that course. He has asked me a question without any previous warning. If the noble Viscount had attached sufficient importance to it he would have availed himself of the opportunity; and I regret I am not in a position to satisfy him.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON): May I suggest to the noble Viscount that he should put down a Question to the representative of the War Office in this House? My noble friend Lord Peel is not here at the moment, but I am certain that he would be prepared to answer a question of that sort if it were put to him. If I may say so, it was hardly fair to put it to the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, whose function, as I understand, in moving the names of this Committee, is purely an official one. He is not necessarily acquainted with the business, while the War Office is. If the noble Viscount will, either to-morrow or the next day, put a Question down, we will do our best to answer it.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
Order of the Day read for the consideration of the Second Report from the Select Committee.
The Committee reported inter alia—

EMPIRE PARLIAMENTARY ASSOCIATION.
The Committee considered the following Report from the Sub-Committee appointed to consider the question as to the accommodation of the Empire Parliamentary Association in the House of Lords precincts:—
"The Lord Chairman reports that the Sub-Committee appointed at the last meeting took part in a Conference on March 20th, at which the First Commissioner of Works, the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, and the Assistant Sergeant-at-Arms were present.
"It was decided that accommodation can be found for the Empire Parliamentary Association in rooms adjoining Westminster Hall. A Minute by the First Commissioner of Works dated March 21st records this as follows:—
"The Committee Room in Westminster Hall with the two adjoining rooms to form
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the accommodation for the Empire Parliamentary Association during the reconstruction of Westminster Hall, the large room in the Public Petitions Offices to be substituted as a Committee Room, the other two rooms remaining for the use of the Public Petitions Offices.'… 'It was suggested that when the repairs to the Westminster Hall were completed the question of the allocation of this accommodation is to be reconsidered on the lines of the temporary committee room being restored, the Public Petitions offices being transferred to the Empire Parliamentary Association, and room allotted on the floor above to the Public Petitions offices.'
"It is understood that the warrant of the Lord Great Chamberlain has been issued to bring this arrangement into effect.
"March 26th, 1919."
The Report was adopted by the Committee.

WAR BONUS.
The Committee considered the application to the House of Lords Offices of the New War Bonus sanctioned by the Treasury. The consideration was adjourned for further information.

APPOINTMENT.
The Clerk of the Parliaments informed the Committee that he had appointed Mr. Anthony Henry Jeffreys to fill the vacancy in the Parliament Office caused by the death of Mr. A. W. G. Hinchliffe.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, I beg to move that the Second Report on the House of Lords Offices be now considered and adopted.
Move accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) (SUPERANNUATION) BILL.
PUBLIC HEALTH (MEDICAL TREATMENT OF CHILDREN) (IRELAND) BILL.
SCOTTISH BOARD OF HEALTH BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
[From Minutes of April 10.]

WAR CHARITIES (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments to be printed, and to be considered on Monday next.

CAVENDISH CLARKE'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
Minutes of Evidence and Proceedings before this House on Second Reading,

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together with the documents deposited in the case, returned from the Commons.

BIRMINGHAM CORPORATION TRAMWAYS.
Petition of the Lord Mayor, Aldermen and Burgesses of the City of Birmingham under their Corporate Seal praying for leave to bring in a Bill to confer further powers upon the Lord Mayor, Aldermen,
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and Burgesses of the City of Birmingham in regard to their tramway undertaking and for the construction of street improvements, and for other purposes; together with a copy of the proposed Bill annexed thereto; read, and referred to the Examiners.
House adjourned at a quarter-past five o'clock.