§ LORD LAMINGTON had the following Question on the Paper—
§ To ask His Majesty's Government whether Lord Newton was correct in saying on October 16 that he was not aware that any German prisoner of war was employed in this country in a coal mine, whereas many British prisoners are employed in both coal and salt mines in Germany; whether any German prisoners, and if so how many, are employed on the surface of British coal mines, although it has been stated that the language difficulty presents almost insuperable obstacles to their employment; whether any communications that have passed between His Majesty's Government and the miners' representatives will be laid before Parliament; what is the total number of German combatant prisoners of war now in Great Britain, and what number are in regular employment; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, at the outset of my remarks may I express the satisfaction, which I am sure we all of us felt, when we heard the announcement made by the noble Earl the Leader of the House this afternoon, that British prisoners in the hands of the Turkish Government will be promptly released. I am sure we all entertain the hope that this will be speedily followed by a similar release of our prisoners elsewhere, and of all those who 973 have suffered so much at the hands of our enemies.
§ The two first portions of the Question standing in my name on the Paper bear closely one on the other. On October 16 Lord Newton, in charge of the Department connected with our prisoners, said that he did not believe that any German prisoner of war in this country was engaged in work in coal mines. About the same date in another place an answer was elicited by Colonel Yate from Mr. Hope, that German prisoners had not hitherto been employed in coal or salt mines as, apart from the difficulties of language which would prevent them understanding the regulations, British miners were unwilling to work with them; but that if a way could be found of overcoming the difficulties it would certainly be taken. Those two difficulties seem to me to be very paltry.
§ First of all I understand on good authority that, as regards the language difficulty, German prisoners are employed at the top of the mines, and in every case in which German prisoners are employed this language difficulty must present itself and can be overcome. We do not hear any difficulty about the Germans employing our prisoners, and the history of every country shows that it is quite possible to employ prisoners in spite of the difference of language. Then comes the second reason given—namely, the unwillingness of miners to work with German prisoners. Here, again, it is a very natural feeling on the part of miners, and I do not suppose that, in any other calling or occupation in which there are German prisoners employed, those of our own countrymen feel any special joy in working with them.
§ But I ask your Lordships to consider for a moment what is the position of this question. We may say that by the mercy of Providence, except for those cruel personal losses which have occurred in almost every home in this country, this country has been spared the ravages and misery of war to an extent to which not even neutral countries in Europe have escaped. The great masses of the people of this country have really enjoyed greater prosperity than at any other time in our history. Last winter for a short period there was a certain lack of food. Now we are told that during this coming winter there may be a distinct privation; that it may be necessary for all classes to curtail their ordinary requirements as regards the 974 warmth of their houses and their lighting, and so forth; that the shortage of coal is very great, and it is essential that our Allies who are fighting with us and our Armies abroad should be supplied with as much coal as possible; and that therefore the private individual in this country must diminish his own personal requirements. This is the first instance in which we in this country have really felt privation.
§ On the other hand, the Coal Controller has appealed earnestly to the miners of the country to increase to the utmost the output of coal A statement was made the other day in the Press showing that this appeal had been partially met, but I know on my own personal knowledge that in Scotland the average days were only eleven in a fortnight, and consequently the great portion of our mines were lying idle. It is in face of that demand of the Government, that the coal output of the country should be increased to the utmost, that I ask the third part of my Question—namely, what discussions have taken place between the Government officials and the miners or their representatives. If it is possible, I should think it would be very valuable if the documents—if the communications have been in writing—could be laid upon the Table. If it is not possible, then I ask the noble Lord whether the Government have approached the miners or their representatives as to whether they will allow German prisoners to be employed in the mines, and, if there has been a refusal, whether any reason has been given for that refusal. I should like to have a specific answer on this point. Experience shows that, throughout the war, while they have been very bold in dealing with individuals or small sections of the community, the Government have been very timid when coming up against any organised body of labour; and therefore we are rather suspicious that the Government have not done their best to secure the employment of German prisoners in our coal mines. I do not believe myself that the great body of miners are one whit less patriotic or worse fighters abroad than any other class of the community. If only they are appealed to, and if the Government point out the necessity of a certain course of action, then I believe they would loyally respond. That is the obect of the third portion of my Question—to know exactly what has taken place between the Government and the miners or their representatives.
975§ Now may I make a short digression with reference to the debate which took place on Tuesday, I think it was, in another place. I believe that most of your Lordships will share my feeling of regret at seeing how very vigorously the noble Lord, Lord Newton, was attacked on that occasion. In the many discussions which have taken place in this House on this question noble Lords have testified to the zeal and energy which Lord Newton has displayed in the discharge of his duty on behalf of our prisoners of war; and if I may make a personal remark it is this, that I believe these attacks are far more due to his at times rather rugged demeanour than to anything else. I believe that that demeanour has been misinterpreted as indicating on his part a lack of feeling and sympathy with our prisoners, whereas I know for certain that no person in the kingdom has been more desirous of doing everything possible on behalf of these unfortunate prisoners of war.
§ The criticisms in the other House chiefly centred upon the fact that the noble Lord had not indulged in reprisals. To my mind it would be perfectly impossible for any single Minister to entertain the idea of entering upon a course of reprisals. Such a policy, such a notable departure from our national characteristic of never inflicting cruelty on innocent persons because of the desire to punish a guilty person, would be absolutely foreign to all our traditions. Moreover, a policy of reprisals could only be entered upon by the Government as a whole and not by a single Minister. In the earlier stages of the war one Minister did venture to give utterances to a desire to enter on such a policy. We know what a dismal failure that was. I very much question whether such a policy at any time would be successful. Only recently there has come out a French book, written by M. Dufour, showing what happened in the case of French prisoners—that retaliation was inflicted by the Germans in a camp specially formed for reprisals so as to punish the offence of what the Germans considered to be improper treatment of German prisoners. Whether it is a sound policy or not, at all events it could not be the action of a single Minister to undertake it. The noble Lord, from the very moment of assuming office, has always been insisting that prisoners of war in this country should be employed to the utmost extent. That is not exactly a policy of reprisals, but it is certainly a policy which is the reflex of the 976 action taken by the German Government in regard to those prisoners of ours whom they held. We know under what cruel circumstances our prisoners have been forced to work in salt mines and coal mines.
§ The employment of German prisoners in mines would be entirely in accordance with international Agreements and The Hague Convention, and yet our Government, in these days where every pound of coal is required, hesitate to employ prisoners in this manner, which would be of benefit and advantage, and perhaps of absolute necessity to our successful carrying on of the war. I, therefore, maintain that the noble Lord, in his action throughout his conduct of affairs in wishing to get prisoners employed, should have had greater support from noble Lords in this House and certainly from members in another place, who are in a better position to force the hand of the Government in this direction. I trust that this afternoon there will be some Peers here who will follow up this argument and try to insist upon the Government meeting our necessities and taking action for the employment of German prisoners of war. I need not dwell upon the last portion of the Question which stand in my name, as it speaks for itself, but I hope that other Peers may take part in this debate. I now beg to move for Papers.
§ LORD SYDENHAMMy Lords, I think there can be very little doubt that insufficient use has been made of German prisoners of war, in spite of the great shortage of labour from which this country has suffered in so many directions. What is the reason of this reluctance to use these prisoners? Has the objection arisen from the War Office in finding guards for them, or has it arisen, as my noble friend has said, from the miners or other trade union bodies? And if objection arose from those bodies, could not a strong appeal have been addressed to them to bear any inconvenience and put aside any natural objections which they might feel, for the sake of the good of the country as a whole?
It cannot be said that the employment of these prisoners would in any way interfere with the interest or with the privileges of the trade unions. It could not lower their wages. It could not give rise to unemployment. I should, therefore, like to ask the noble Lord, who I know is as anxious 977 as anybody can be to get work out of the prisoners, what is the real objection to using them in many ways which are possible. There may be technical objections; there may be objections as to what the prisoners might do if they went below, which make it impossible or undesirable to use them below ground; but there must be on the surface an enormous amount of work which prisoners can do, and if the objection arises on the part of the miners or the people who work on the surface against working in contact with German prisoners, then, where gang labour can be employed, that difficulty could be got rid of.
This question now is much less important than it was some time ago, because the war is rapidly drawing to a close, and we feel this more than ever after the announcement that has been made here today. But still, I think we shall always deplore the fact that, while our prisoners have been worked to death under the lash of the most brutal slave-drivers in the world, their prisoners over here were pampered and kept almost in luxury and not employed to do the work which in my opinion might very well have been imposed upon them.
§ THE ASSISTANT UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD NEWTON)My Lords, perhaps without being unduly irrelevant, and in view of what fell from my noble friend opposite, I may be allowed to take this opportunity to express my appreciation of the consideration with which I have always been treated in this House. I think all noble Lords, or very nearly all noble Lords, will give me credit for having done my best for the benefit of prisoners in a somewhat difficult situation.
§ LORD NEWTONWith regard to the Question on the Paper, I propose only to deal with that relating to employment in coal mines, and not to enter into the larger subject of the general employment of prisoners, because I observe that there is a Motion on the Paper in connection with that matter next week. As to the Question on the Paper, I find that the statement which I made the other day is absolutely accurate. Perhaps it would be more correct to say that it was an under-statement, because I find that there are literally no men employed, not only in mines, but even on the surface of mines at the present 978 moment. This matter, I am informed by the Coal Controller, has been frequently discussed with the miners' representatives, and I believe that he and they are both of opinion that important questions of safety arise in the case of the employment of these prisoners underground and on the surface and anywhere near the shaft of the winding-engine. Negotiations are still proceeding, I understand, with these miners' representatives.
Both noble Lords asked me a definite and categorical question, and I am quite prepared to give them a categorical answer. They both asked from what direction the opposition proceeded; did it proceed from the War Office, or from the miners themselves? I am informed that the opposition arises from the miners' representatives themselves, and what their reason may be for their attitude I am not aware of. But I gather from the Coal Controller that the negotiations with these officials are not yet completed, and that he has hopes that they will abandon their present attitude with regard to the utilisation of German prisoners, at all events in development work. That, I presume, means the boring of fresh pits and work of that description. These negotiations were oral, they are not completed, and I am instructed to say that therefore there are, of course, no Papers which can be presented to Parliament.
I confess that, speaking for myself. I share the surprise which has been expressed by previous speakers that this question has not attracted greater notice already. The House is aware that there are thousands—I could not say how many exactly, but thousands certainly—of British prisoners who are employed under intolerably hard conditions in German salt mines and coal mines, where they receive abominable treatment; and it is a most extraordinary thing to me that at this moment, when a vast number of people are clamouring for a retaliation in some form or other, nobody seems to have suggested what appears to be the very obvious course, that German prisoners in this country should be made to do the same sort of thing which British prisoners in Germany are called upon to do. Why this matter has escaped notice for so long I am unable to say, but I hope that it will not be lost sight of.
In regard to the final portion of my noble friend's Question, the total number of German combatant prisoners in this country is 97,060; of these, 58,746 are in regular 979 employment. This leaves a balance of, approximately, 38,000 men who are not employed in regular work, and I am informed that this large discrepancy is to be explained as follows. Of the 38,000 whom I have quoted as not being in regular employment, 5,500 are officers; 10,500, approximately, are non-commissioned officers; there are 10,000 men in hospital; there are 3,000 who are unfit for heavy work and are employed merely upon camp duties in consequence of their physical condition, and there are 10,000 men who have recently been brought over from France and who are at the present time being distributed to various centres for agricultural and other work.
THE EARL OF DESARTMy Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord is as disappointed at the character of the answer he had to give concerning the coal mines as are most members of this House. After all, the fact that there was going to be a shortage of coal is no new question. It has been known to the authorities and proclaimed to the people for a considerable time. Yet after months of planning and scheming as to how to reduce the consumption of coal, light, and other things, we are told that this matter has been the subject of negotiations, is still the subject of negotiations, and that there is a hope that something may ultimately come of it. It is not, I confess, a very encouraging answer. There is no suggestion that there is any particular reason to believe that anything has happened in these negotiations which would make the hope more immediate than it has been at any time in the last three or four months. We are told that they are reasons of safety urged by the miners' representatives against the employment of German prisoners in any occupation connected with a mine. There is no suggestion made to us what those considerations of safety are. It is very easy to imagine them in connection with underground work, but it is not so easy to imagine them in connection with work about a mine which may not even be in immediate proximity to the mine.
The net result—it is not the noble Lord's fault in any way—the net result is that I honestly do not think his answer takes us one inch further than we were when we came down to the House this evening. We knew before—and I wish to emphasise it as much as I can—that Lord Newton has not only done his best in every direction 980 for our prisoners, but he has consistently advocated the employment of German prisoners where they could be employed in this country, apart from the employment of them on agriculture. This is a question which strikes one as most vital in this country, and I cannot share my noble friend's optimism as to conditions in regard to coal being much easier because of what has occurred. I think they will be equally hard for some time to come. As regards coal, his advocacy has not produced any result at all. I do not wish to exaggerate, but at the present moment we are on a very limited output, with certainly some hardship, and perhaps even suffering, to the poor as regards coal, and we are wasting, or not using, an element of labour without the smallest explanation being given to us of what the real reason is for it, except that the miners' representatives so far have not consented and there is no indication that there is any likelihood of their consenting.
I do not wish to press for it tonight, but I think we had really better know the worst. Is there really any hope that we shall have the consent of the miners to the employment not only of German labour but of any labour which is available to increase the output of coal? Because that is the question. You want to get what labour you can in order to get coal. I am afraid, from what he said, that the noble Lord cannot give us any hope. This is no new question. The time has come when the Government ought, in this House or in another place, to tell us how we stand in this matter. It is very urgent and very important, and touches the whole population. And, while expressing what I feel is our appreciation of all that the noble Lord has done, I would ask him whether we are to be told at any time what chance there is to employ the labour of Germans or Austrians, or any other labour, which will increase the output of the coal which is so urgently wanted, not only for ourselves, but for our industries and for work abroad.
§ LORD BERESFORDI am sure your Lordships were delighted with what I may describe as the wholesome speech of the noble Lord opposite. He has now told us what we believed all the time. He has done his best for the prisoner, we all know that, but he has failed to do what he wished to do. It has not been his fault, but the fault of the Government for not backing him up. We know perfectly well that ever 981 since he has been associated with the Prisoners' Department, and indeed before, he has pointed out the necessity of employing German prisoners. For my own part, I would have employed them and got the last ounce out of them, when we think of the cruelties our men have endured in the salt mines and chemical works of the enemy. With regard to coal, we are going to be short of coal for six years after the war, perhaps, judging from what has happened after every other war. All the world will want coal for heating and industrial purposes, and I should like to ask whether it is a fact that the mines are lying idle for two-thirds of the week. We are going to have a serious time on this question in this country, far more serious, I think, than that of food. The people have been most loyal and have backed up the Government, they have not growled or grumbled over the food; but it will be a very different thing if you are short of coal in the winter, because that will not only affect cooking, but it will affect heating, and the poorer children, the poorer families, will get starved on account of the want of coal, And if it is the fast that our mines are lying idle for two-thirds of the week the Government ought to grapple with the question at once. I respectfully differ from my noble friend Lord Sydenham when he spoke of prisoners. He thought the war would be over soon. I do not agree with him at all; I respectfully differ from him entirely. I do not think the war will be over anywhere near soon as long as the Junkers and the Kaiser exist. They will go on fighting, and until we get over the Rhine we shall have to continue until we fight them to their knees. I do not think it is right of anybody to make optimistic speeches now. We shall have to go on with the war, in my opinion, for some considerable time.
§ LORD SYDENHAMI only said that it was drawing to a close.
§ LORD BERESFORDI do not even agree with my noble friend there. However, the real point that I think your Lordships would like to get more information upon is in regard to the output of coal. I regard the position as most serious for the reasons I have given, and if some one on the Front Government Bench would answer the question directly as to how long the coal mines are lying idle at the present time I should be much obliged.
§ LORD SOUTHWARKMy Lords, I should like to take the opportunity, having read of the attacks made upon my noble friend Lord Newton with regard to his conduct in relation to prisoners, of bearing my testimony to his work. I should like to say how much obliged I personally am towards him for what he has done with respect to the release of prisoners. I think that he has displayed great energy in this matter, and the attacks that have been made upon him personally are most unjustifiable. I took occasion to say at a meeting that I attended some months ago—which my noble friend opposite will recollect—when attacks were made upon the noble Lord, that I wished to bear testimony to what I knew at that time was being done by my noble friend Lord Newton. Before then, and since, my noble friend used his best endeavours to get these prisoners released.
With respect to the use of German prisoners in coal mines, I understand that there are objections to their being so employed. I think, therefore, that one of the most important things that we could do, in order to get the coal which is required for the commerce and industry of the country, and for the war, is to induce the Government to recall some of our own miners from the Army, and put them back to their own work in the mines. I understand that these gallant men have been fighting so vigorously, and are so desirous of being in at the end, that they are very reluctant to return to their work in the coal mines. They think that they are doing their country a greater service by continuing to fight, as they have been doing, so gallantly. At the same time, I am of opinion that the practical way of getting more coal is to bring back the men, who have been in the habit of extracting coal from the earth, to their own occupation. Of course if they will not come back and insist on fighting until the end, I suppose they must be allowed to do so, but with the Americans sending men at so rapid a rate as they are now doing, and in such large numbers, surely 20,000, 30,000, or 40,000 of our own men who are miners might be recalled from the Front in order to do this very essential work for the country. Not only is the coal required for ourselves, but it is no less urgently needed by our Allies.
§ LORD WITTENHAMMy Lords, there are only two or three observations that I should like to make. I thought that we 983 were discussing whether it was advisable to employ German prisoners in coal mines, and not whether we should bring back our own men for that purpose. I will confine myself to the former proposition. My noble friend Lord Newton produced some figures regarding the German prisoners who were employed. He gave a figure of about 40,000. Then he proceeded to whittle that down, and very rightly so, because the officers have to come off, and so, too, have the sick men and others. I was finally left in a state of doubt as to how many German prisoners would be available even if the British miners approve of the policy of employing them in the mines of this country. It is a question of quantum. How many are there?
§ LORD LAMINGTONThere may be many miners employed in other occupations who might be taken from those occupations and put to do work in the mines.
§ LORD WITTENHAMI agree. I should like to know at what the men to whom the noble Lord now alludes are occupied. They may be doing quarrying, or they may be engaged in some other occupation of a very important kind, not perhaps as vital as coal-mining, yet of a very important nature. Another question that I should like to ask the noble Lord in front of me is this. A fortnight ago, when this matter was before this House, the noble Lord described it as in his opinion a ridiculous anomaly that British prisoners should be employed in German coal mines and that German prisoners should not be employed in British coal mines. Does the noble Lord still think it a ridiculous anomaly? If he thought it a ridiculous anomaly a fortnight ago, I respectfully venture to ask him whether he represented it to the powers that be as such? His opinion is very important, because he is the high official who has control, or at any rate he has control to a great extent. Has he represented to the Government that in his opinion it is a ridiculous anomaly that German prisoners, if there be any available, should not be employed at work in coal mines in the country, and if he has suggested to the Government that it is a ridiculous anamoly what reply did they give to him? Have they pushed his opinion aside? We are entitled to know, because it is the Government that we are after this afternoon. Have the Government pushed 984 his opinion aside, and if so why? If the noble Lord feels himself able to reply to those questions, which I put to him with the utmost respect, I shall be grateful.
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, my noble friend who has just spoken is suffering from a delusion not altogether uncommon in this House, that I am a much more important person than I am in reality. As a matter of fact, no recommendations or advice from me, as far as I know, would carry any weight with the proper authorities. I am merely a spokesman, and I have no authority to recommend that persons should be employed in any particular direction or in any occupation, but I have taken upon myself frequently, although it was outside my duty, to suggest that German prisoners should be employed preferably to leaving them idle. It was a very long time before any of them were employed. For the first six months or so of the war I do not think that any work was got out of the German prisoners, and it seemed to me, if I may say so, such a scandal that I took upon myself frequently to bring it to the notice of the authorities. I got myself very much disliked in consequence in various quarters.
With regard to the other question put to me, I should like to make it quite clear that there are not a number of men available to put into the coal mines at this moment in this country. I accounted for all the men in this country. If men are really wanted in the coal mines, if you are determined to employ German prisoners in coal mines, and if the objections to which I have alluded are overcome, there is nothing that I know of to prevent a large additional number of prisoners being brought over from France for the purpose. There must be at the present moment considerably more than 150,000 prisoners in France, and although they no doubt are all occupied in some way or another, it seems to me quite conceivable that they could not be put to any better use than that which has been suggested this afternoon.
§ LORD BERESFORDThe trade unions object.
§ LORD NEWTONI am informed that the miners object, but I am unable to give the noble Lord the reasons for their objection. There must be means of ascer- 985 taining what they are. I should have thought that they would have been ascertained long ago in another place.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.