§ LORD BERESFORD had the following Notice on the Paper—
§ To call attention to the fact that while the British Government are insisting on Germans being turned oar of Turkey and other countries that have suffered defeat, aliens are being given more or less a free hand in this country, and to ask whether His Majesty's Government can give a Return of the aliens at present in this country; also, whether steps are being taken to prevent other than British-born subjects being employed for the future in the Naval. Military, or Civil Services; and to move that legislation to carry out this object be immediately introduced.
§ The noble and gallant Lord said: My Lords, after the brilliant and eloquent speech of my noble friend Earl Curzon, who leads the House, I almost owe a debt of apology for bringing up what I may call hard-featured business; but I desire leave to move the Resolution which stands in my name. A good deal is being, done under the Acts relating to enemy aliens, but in my opinion not enough is being done, and that opinion I think is generally held in the country.
§ Your Lordships will remember that several Amendments were made in this House to the Bill restricting the movements of aliens, and these Amendments were all agreed to in the other House. The feeling in the country, however, is not yet allayed, or nearly allayed, with regard to those aliens who are at present among us, though, as I say, a good deal is being done. I must remind your Lordships that everything that has been done has beet carried out in deference to public agitation and was not brought forward by the Government itself. I would also remind the Government that our men, both sailors and soldiers, are now coming home from the war, and that they will be very much puzzled at the leniency that has been shown to aliens, more particularly to enemy aliens, in this country during the last four years. In addition to the soldiers and sailors the prisoners are also coming home, and they will be more astonished, after all they have been through, to find so many aliens at present in this country. These prisoners have seen many of their comrades murdered. They have been tortured and starved and brutally treated, 169 and I do not think their feelings will be very sympathetic towards the aliens that they may find in their own one-man businesses.
§ I have reminded your Lordships once before that the danger here is that many Germans took out naturalisation papers as subjects of neutral countries, and then took up the one-man businesses in a large number of cases, more particularly since Conscription became operative. Most of the volunteer soldiers who went abroad had left their businesses in the charge of uncles or fathers or some elder relatives, who, when Conscription came, were called up, and aliens took over the businesses. We have been told—I know it is true because I have conversed with the men themselves—that the Government would not allow returned prisoners to tell the truth of what occurred abroad. The men were loyal to discipline and were ordered not to communicate what happened abroad. You will not be able to stop the mouths of these men now. They will be able to tell their countrymen of the horrors they have gone through. They will not be sympathetic, to the aliens whom they find in their old businesses.
§ I cannot think myself why we cannot do exactly what Australia did. We have suffered from aliens much more than Australia, and Australia has taken the most drastic measures with regard to aliens in that country. Aliens appear to me in a great number of cases to enjoy what I may call official protection. I do not say that we shall ever give up our chivalrous instincts of having this country as an asylum, but I do say we should think more of our own people and not of getting people into this country to the detriment of those who live here. At this moment there is far more excitement and agitation about feeding the Germans—I do not say that we shall not have to feed the Germans, but I say we have to look after our own people first—far more agitation about the idea of feeding the Germans than has ever been shown in the country with regard to our unfortunate prisoners. I do not believe a bit as to the danger of Bolshevism in this country; the people are too loyal, and, as has been said so ably by Lord Curzon, our Sovereign lives for his people; he is the servant of his people, and does not claim rank with the Almighty. Our Crown has never been on a more steadfast basis than it is at this moment. But there is some 170 Bolshevism in the country. I have only to refer to the meeting the other day in the Albert Hall, which every right-minded person in this country must have been disgusted with. But my main point in bringing this matter up is that a large number of the people at that meeting were aliens, principally Russian Jews.
§ There are certain questions that I want to ask the Government, which I hope they will be able to answer, because the questions that I ask are very important and are interesting the people very much at the present time. One is, Does the Advisory Committee have sole charge now of aliens questions, or are there three or four Departments, as there were before? Another question is, Have all the aliens who changed their names since the war had them revoked, and have the names been published—that is, the names these aliens originally had, and the names they have now? We were promised very drastic alterations in the Naturalisation Laws, and I want to ask the Government, Is that suggested law being worked out? If it is not, when will it be worked out, and how soon shall we know in the country what the new regulations are under the Naturalisation Laws? Again, What are we going to do with all the interned aliens? These interned people had either committed some crime, or were suspected of being, or were found to be, spies. There was sone reason why they were interned. What are we going to do with these people? Are we going to let them loose on the country again, or are we going to expatriate them as soon as possible?
§ I also want a Return of all the aliens in this country; if the Government like to divide that Return into neutral and other aliens, I shall be very glad. But I should like a Return of all the aliens in this country at the present moment, so that the public may know how many there are amongst us. It is said that if aliens have been in this country a long time they can be trusted. I am sorry to say I do not agree with this at all, and I have only to point to the case of Sir Joseph Jonas, who was forty-two years in this country, who had two sons fighting in the British Army, but who was convicted of a crime which merited his honours being taken away from him and his being fined. I merely hold him up as an example of what I contend—namely, that we cannot trust 171 these people, no matter how long they have been in the country.
§ Then I would like to refer to the principal point of the Motion which I bring before the House—that is, with regard to the Naval Military, and Civil Services. Many appointments have been made, and made in these three Services. Are they held still? I want to know, with regard to those appointments, are we to understand that these people are indispensable, that we have no British of any sort or kind who can take these appointments, so that we are obliged to put foreign-born people into them? Personally, I object to this altogether; I believe the Services object to it too, and I am certain that a very large number of my countrymen also object to this principle. I believe there has been an embargo on anybody not British-born entering these Services, and that this is only to last until a year after the war. I am not sure about that; it is what I have been informed. I ask my noble friend to tell your Lordships whether it is true, or if the embargo will be continued for all time? We are still keeping what are called "indispensables." Are we going to keep them now that we see peace in sight? With regard to indispensables, we must remember the case of Baron Schröder. Lord St. Davids, in this House, gave his opinion as to the statement made by the Home Secretary of that day that Baron Schröder was indispensable, and that there would be a panic in the City if he had not been naturalised. For my own part, I do not believe a word of it; Lord St. Davids certainly does not believe a word of it, and he is a financier and knows what he is talking about. I am not a financier; I do not understand finance; but I believe Baron Schröder should, as soon as possible, have his naturalisation papers taken away, and that he should be sent back to the country that he adorns.
§ I find that the Advisory Committee have been published names of people whom they wish should remain here. A great number of those names are of people whom I think might remain here, but the reason why should they remain here ought to be made public. The Advisory Committee has the most difficult problems to solve, and I believe it is solving those difficulties quite in accord with public opinion. But I should like to see more publicity given to their findings, and the reasons for those findings. The last list 172 published which I have seen contains 475 names, but I believe some 1,000 names have been passed by the Advisory Committee on the alien question as being allowed to remain in this country. Now, with regard to indispensables, are we going to keep the food-substitute indispensable alien who is a German, as I read in the paper? I do not know whether my noble friend can inform me about that, but I think that this so-called indispensable should be got rid of entirely. I do not see why you should keep these people now. There may have been certain chemical arrangements relative to gunnery, powders, and other things in regard to which these people were useful to us, but why we should keep them now I cannot conceive.
§ The Prime Minister, in a notable speech the other day, referred to the health of the people, and made a statement which I think your Lordships will have been astounded at—namely, that in these researches he found that we had more in-effectives in these islands than there were either in France or Germany. It is a very serious statement if our people are as unhealthy as that. But what can we expect when we dump these aliens down? They come in freely, and have done for years and years. We know that they bring many diseases; we know that tuberculosis is rampant among them; yet still we allow them to be dumped down in this country. One of the first things we should do when we inquire into the health of our people, which we are shortly going to do, is to find out what these diseases are accurately, and who brought them here. I am positive we shall then find that a large number of the diseases that I speak of were brought by aliens and dumped here. The Prime Minister also said that one of the proposals of the new Coalition Government, if it is elected, would be that they would step dumping. In everything in life the first and the important question is the human element, and for goodness sake do let the new Government set to work to stop the dumping of these aliens into this country. Our health legislation has always been in their favour, to the detriment of our own people, and I hope sincerely it will now be stopped. I am quite satisfied that the soldiers and sailors returning, and more particularly our prisoners, who have gone through such shocking atrocities, will not view the situation with regard to the aliens in this country as it has been viewed, both 173 by the Government and by a large number of the people of the country up to date.
§ I am hoping that we shall see in many of the election addresses of candidates who desire to get into Parliament that this question has been thoroughly taken up by the Government, not only on the ground of health, but also upon that of our trade and business generally. I do not desire to have the old chivalrous principles of this country affording a right of asylum altered, except that I do not want those principles, as has been the case, carried, out entirely in favour of the aliens and in a most detrimental way to our own country. There is one question more that I should like to ask the noble Lord. I believe that the Duke of Cumberland and the Duke of Albany are still of the list of those holding seats in this Assembly, and I wish to know if that is going to be permitted, because if it is I shall bring forward a Motion that they no longer belong to this House. I beg to make the Motion standing in my name.
§ LORD RATHCREEDANMy Lords, I desire to second the Motion of my noble and gallant friend, because I believe that he voices the view of a great many of our fellow-countrymen. There is a prejudice undoubtedly in this country against foreigners, and with some reason, certainly so far as London is concerned. Some years ago, when I represented an industrial constituency in the centre of South London, and when unemployment was rife, more especially amongst the unskilled classes, it was no uncommon thing to find some dozen individuals presenting themselves as candidates for some employment, usually that of one-horse carmen, and some young German would present himself and by taking the post for 2s. or 3s. a week less than any Britisher could afford to take it, he obtained the situation. It can scarcely be wondered at that Germans were unpopular in London.
But I do not wish to enter into the question as to whether it is advisable or otherwise that there should be a free market for labour in this country to which foreigners should be freely admitted. That is not the question. I say that it is altogether undesirable that foreigners should be permitted to enter our Civil Service. Every citizen in the State, no matter how poor he may be, contributes either directly or indirectly to the upkeep of the State, and it seems inconsistent that the Britisher should 174 be handicapped by having foreigners put in competition with him, those foreigners having done nothing towards the upkeep of the State. Again, I would point out that the great countries throughout Europe do not admit foreigners into their Public Service. I know Europe unusually well, and, except Turkey and some of the Danubian Principalities, I have never met an alien in the service of any foreign country. Let us take the popular Service of which my noble and gallant friend is an ornament. There are some in that Service who are not of pure British birth, and, as an illustration of the danger which they might be to the Service, I would point out that some years ago there was a debate in another place where it was shown that a number of such men wore permitted to act as pilots in this country. Noble Lords will recognise that had our Navy not played such a vigilant and successful part in the war it might have been a very serious matter that there were foreigners in existence who wore quite familiar with our home waters.
In the Service with which I had the honour of being connected for many years there are not many foreigners, but even there they are a source of danger. As regards the Civil Service, I think it is more disastrous. At the time of the outbreak of this war I happened to be Assistant Postmaster-General, and owing to the outcry in the country we were obliged to displace a considerable number of employees, and to send others away from their proper duties into remote places in order to satisfy the natural apprehensions of the people of this country. I do not say that it dislocated the service in any way, but it was certainly highly inconvenient. Therefore there are many reasons why foreigners should not be admitted to our Public Services.
I now come to the point which was touched upon by my noble and gallant friend—namely, of a certain number of individuals who have special scientific and technical knowledge. I do not think that we are yet such an effete nation that we cannot produce men who have the necessary scientific and technical knowledge. It is urged that these men will not be prepared to take service under the State, but prefer to be free owing to the great scope which they have in this country in connection with mercantile pursuits. If there is one thing which the scientific men 175 of all countries in the world cannot he accused of it is money-grubbing. As a rule the scientific man asks only for a free hand with reference to his experiments, and for a certain relaxation of the red tape by which Government Offices are usually bound, and my belief is that if they were given a free hand as regards their experimental work it would be perfectly easy to obtain the higher qualified men for the service of the State. For all these reason, therefore, I hope that the Government will accede to the request of my noble and gallant friend. May I be permitted to add that when our fellow-countrymen see your Lordships' House taking an interest in this question, which closely affects them and to which the democracy attach such great importance, the tendency is in every way to uphold the good of the State.
§ LORD SYDENHAMMy Lords, before the noble Viscount replies, may I say a few words in support of my noble and gallant friend? We shall in a few years, no doubt, have to trade again with Germany. I believe that is quite necessary and desirable, but what is most undesirable is that German penetration into our trade should continue as it has done in the past. We shall be mad, in my opinion, if we permit that penetration to go on in the future. That penetration has been a most elaborate and well-thought-out system, which was devised many years before the war, and has been carried out up to the war, and during the war, as far as the Germans were able to do it. It had three main objects. The first was to obtain control of our important industries and hamper us in the war, and also of our most important sources of raw material. Then it was devised that the Germans might make money out of our resources and out of the working of British brains. Lastly, and perhaps not least important, it was arranged to entangle influential people in this country in German interests in order that, if war occurred, Germans in this country might have a considerable amount of protection. I am afraid that this penetration has been successful in every one of those three objects. If, with the knowledge that we now possess, and with much more that the Government can obtain if it chooses, we permit the return of that system, then I think that we shall deserve what will certainly happen to us in the future.
176 During the past few years I have drawn attention in your Lordships' House to several cases of German operations in this country. I have not the least quarrel with any of those German firms, but I do quarrel with the laxity of system which has made their operations possible. It is that laxity which has failed to give us the protection against those operations which was most needed during the war; and now, after more than four and a-quarter years of war, there are German firms operating without restriction in this country, and those firms and others which have lain low during the war will expand and develop rapidly as soon as peace is declared. All the disguises which have been put on will be removed: shares will be re-transferred; directors who have been lying perdus for a time will reappear on the boards; and unless we take care we shall have German operations in full work amongst us. It was admitted the other day that a firm composed of two aliens, one naturalised very shortly before the war, was able to obtain a licence under the Non-ferrous Metals Act. At the same time the Merton firm, which was in the closest connection with Frankfurt before the war, was whitewashed, but it was not held to be quite pure enough to obtain a licence under that Act.
I feel that the questions raised by my noble and gallant friend are of very great importance for our trade in the future. Our legislation has been defective in the past. We have learnt enough now to know how to remedy it, and I hope that when the new Parliament assembles the Government will lose no time in looking into all these complaints and in proposing such legislation and such measures as are necessary to protect our trade from German penetration in the future. During the years before the war we have too frequently been deceived and outwitted by the Germans. That must not occur in future.
§ LORD GISBOROUGHMy Lords, I should like to say one or two words in support of my noble and gallant friend's Motion, if only to emphasise the strong feeling that there is in the country on the subject; and in these days of revolution abroad I do not think that our country ought to neglect strong feeling when it is shown by the people, because that feeling would not be there unless there was good reason for it. At the present time there are aliens, naturalised, no doubt, but none the less people of foreign blood, who are 177 actually holding office in our Government, much to the astonishment of the working classes; there are a large number occupying positions in the great Departments of the State; and the question that is asked is, "Why should it be so? Have we not got Englishmen equally good to hold these places, and plenty of them?" Of course, we have. We have no right to deprive the people of this country of their birthright by giving these appointments to men who do not perform the duties in any respect better then Englishmen would do, if they were given a chance. I think the least we could do is to open more of these places to our own people, and to make it impossible for those of foreign blood to occupy them.
Unless I have been misled, one if not two, of our battleships were blown up—according to what was told me, and the same person happened to belong to the ship in both cases and happened to be away from it at the moment when the explosion took place—by enemy agency. Whether that is true or not I do not know, but, at any rate, there is a large number of foreigners in responsible positions where they are able to do great injury to our country in time of war or of any great crisis and I think the sooner they are removed and Englishmen put in their places the better it will be for all concerned.
I should also like to say a word with regard to the interned aliens, more especially those interned because they came under suspicion. Are they going to be let, loose once more and to be allowed to go round the country making mischief and preparing for the next crisis whenever it may come? I trust that my noble and gallant friend will receive an answer to his question, and if that answer cannot be fully satisfactory I hope that consideration of it will be postponed until further attention can be given to it, because I find that, wherever I go, North, South, East, and West, there is a very strong feeling in the country upon it, and unless something is done trouble will arise.
LORD FORESTERMy Lords, I fully endorse the words that have fallen from the last noble Lord who has spoken about the strong feeling in the country. I fought a constituency at the last Election, and on Saturday afternoon If went down there to try and get the two Parties composing the Coalition to agree. I know that 178 constituency fairly well I have worked it pretty hard since the last Election—and there is no doubt that if there were a three-cornered fight in that constituency the Coalition candidate would certainly not get in. I went down because I thought it to be for the best interests of the country that the Coalition Government should be returned to power, and I got the two Parties to agree to support the Coalition candidate who represents that constituency at the present time. But they insisted, or one Party insisted, before they would support him, on getting a pledge from him that there was to be an end of this nonsense of saying that we have not got Englishmen who can do the work in this country as well as Germans can. I am afraid that the feeling of the Government is not that way.
I dare say most noble Lords are aware that there was an Aliens Watch Committee formed in the House of Commons. Three gentlemen were asked to give evidence before that Committee and to attend it in a Committee-room of the House of Commons on October 29 this year. They went and were informed by one of the members of the Committee that the Committee considered that there was no political profit to be obtained in hunting German financial intrigues; that it considered that the British public, believing that Germany is beaten, wants to let the Germans down lightly, and that the Committee had ceased operations. I should be glad if the noble Lord who replies for the Government would say whether it is true that that Committee has ceased operations, and, if it has not, whether that is the view which it holds. I have three witnesses whose names I can give in private to the noble Lord to prove that they went to that Committee, and that that was the answer that they received.
I think that the Germans are much more dangerous in peace than in war. In war we have got those who can beat them—our sailors, soldiers, and men of the mercantile marine; but in peace time before the war they very nearly obtained dominion not only over this country but over the world, by peaceful penetration; and it is for that reason that my noble and gallant friend has brought forward this Motion, to ask the Government to take care that they do not get a chance again, and to see, now that our noble heroes in France have beaten them in war, that they shall not win the peace.
§ VISCOUNT SANDHURSTMy Lords, I always address your Lordships with great diffidence, and I think that diffidence would have been materially increased if I still observed my noble friend (Lord Cave), who I believe is still Home Secretary, sitting on the Cross Benches, who knows all these questions first-hand, and, of course, with the most absolute knowledge. But I should like to say, in answering these questions of my noble and gallant friend, that while I have had the privilege of serving, to such a degree as I have served, under Lord Cave, in spite of the extreme anxiety of his office I have found him a most kindly and indulgent chief. This debate has, as not infrequently occurs, ranged over a large number of topics more or less connected with the subject. I am afraid I cannot answer all the questions that have been put to me, but my noble and gallant friend was so good as to give me a short time ago some idea of two or three of the details, so to speak, that he required, and I have done my best to inform myself as to some of them; and after I have dealt with the Questions on the Paper I will give him such information on the other points as I have been able to gather.
First, the noble and gallant Lord calls attention "to the fact that, while the British Government are insisting on Germans being turned out of Turkey and other countries that have suffered defeat, aliens are being given more or less a free hand in this country," and he asks whether His Majesty's Government can give a Return of the aliens at present in this country. These are matters in which I naturally desire to be as exact as I can, so perhaps your Lordships will allow me to refer rather fully to some notes that I have prepared. I presume that my noble and gallant friend mostly refers to enemy aliens——
§ LORD BERESFORDHear, hear.
§ VISCOUNT SANDHURSTAnd from the Question on the Paper I rather gather that he infers that they are to be, now that the Armistice is declared, free to do pretty well as they like. If this is so, the reply is that the cessation of hostilities has not so far in any way affected the legal position of aliens in this country; they are under the same restrictions, and, in the case of alien enemies, are being interned or are being repatriated, as before. If my noble and gallant friend means that aliens, and 180 in particular enemy aliens, have been under no restraint or restrictions during the war, I have to say that any alien enemy who can be regarded as in any way a possible danger to this country has been interned or repatriated, and that all exemptions from internment or repatriation have recently been under drastic revision by the Advisory Committee.
§ LORD BERESFORDThere is discovery of new ones nearly every day.
§ VISCOUNT SANDHURSTThe class of German who remain exempt are those who are of good character, who have resided here for upwards of thirty years, who have or have had sons or grandsons serving in His Majesty's Forces, who are aged or infirm, or only technically alien enemies—for example, Poles. As regards restrictions of enemies generally, they have been throughout the war under the stringent restrictions of the Aliens Restriction Order, the provisions of which have been constantly added to and strengthened from time to time. With regard to the steps now to be taken by His Majesty's Government in connection with post-war measures for dealing with aliens, and alien enemies in particular, it is not possible to make any definite statement except that, as stated by Mr. Bonar Law in the House of Commons on October 21, the whole question has been carefully considered by a Committee, and the Government will be ready with its proposals at the proper time. The repatriation of alien enemies who are interned will no doubt be proceeded with as soon as military and other considerations arising out of the Armistice permit.
As regards a Return of the aliens at present in this country, a revision of the figures is now in course of being made, but it is not yet complete. The following figures, however, are approximately correct. Alien enemies: Males, interned civilians—Germans, 20,500; Austrians, 3,700; Turks, 100; total 24,300. Alien enemies at liberty, exclusive of those temporarily released from camps on licence for employment in agriculture and other works of national importance, are—Germans, 5,500; Austrians, 5,000; Turks or Bulgarians, 1,000; total 11,500. A large number of the above are only technically of enemy nationality. Of the Germans, over 3,500 are married to British wives; over 4,000 have British born children; 181 and 2,400 have sons who are serving or who have served in His Majesty's Forces. The number of females, excluding British-born women, are—Germans, 5,500; Austrians, 3,500; Turks or Bulgarians, 600; total 9,600. Other aliens: Allies—145,000 males and 115,000 females; total 260,000. Neutrals—males, 23,000; females, 4,500; total 27,500.
In the next part of his Question my noble and gallant friend asks whether steps have been taken to prevent other than British-born subjects being employed for the future in the Naval, Military, or Civil Services. As regards the Navy, candidates for commissions must be the sons of natural-born or naturalised British subjects. In all cases where the parents are not natural-born, entry is allowed only after very careful inquiry as to their antecedents. The same rule applies to the entry of men, except that the sons of naturalised British subjects are not eligible. The Admiralty do not consider that any alteration in these rules is necessary. As to the Army, all British subjects, whether natural-born or naturalised, are eligible for commissions; but commissions are granted to naturalised British subjects or to the sons of persons who are not natural-born British subjects only with the special approval in each individual case of the Army Council; and the Army Council are considering whether any further precautions are necessary in the future.
As to the Civil Service, during the war and until further notice no person may be admitted to an open competitive examination for an appointment in the Civil Service who is not a natural-born British subject and the child of parents both of whom are either natural-born British subjects or natural-born subjects or citizens of an Allied country. With regard to persons already employed in the Civil Service, it was decided by the Government some time ago that no person should be employed in any Government Office during the war who is not the child of natural-born subjects of this country or of an Allied country unless there is definite national reason for such employment. A Committee consisting of Lord Justice Eldon Bankes, Colonel Sir Thomas Craig, M.P., and Mr. Albion Richardson, M.P., was appointed in August last by the Prime Minister for the purpose of examining the cases of such persons as to whom it is alleged there is a definite national reason for the continuance of his employment.
182 My noble and gallant friend asked me two or three further definite questions. One had to do with the Advisory Committee. This Committee advises the Secretary of State on matters or cases reported to the Secretary of State, who refers those cases to the Advisory Committee, and the Secretary of State, without exception I think, is guided by the advice of that Advisory Committee. But when my noble and gallant friend refers to aliens in Departments, I have made inquiry as to that; and I understand that it does not come under the Home Office, but under a Committee which was appointed and announced by the Prime Minister with regard to that particular question.
§ LORD BERESFORDIs that the Aliens Watch Committee?
§ VISCOUNT SANDHURSTI cannot say. Then another question which my noble and gallant friend asked was as to the regulation with regard to changes of names. That stands as it did. There is no change. I understand that no list has been published. Another question was as to changes in the Naturalisation Laws. My noble and gallant friend will remember that by the Act of 1914 the law as to nationality was revised, after consultation with the Dominions, to secure uniformity for the whole Empire. During the war greater powers were needed for the revocation of certificates, and he will recollect—he took part in the discussion on the Bill which your Lordships assisted me to pass this year—that provision is made in Section 3 for the reconsideration of certificates given to enemy subjects during the war. He will also recollect that we had a discussion over the word "may" or "shall," and the machinery is that those matters are to be referred to a Committee presided over by Lord Justice Atkin. The Secretary of State is guided by the decision of that Committee. The Committee, I believe, is at work, and under its consideration will come such a case as that of Baron Schröder, to which my noble and gallant friend referred. I may also say that I understand further amendment of the Act of 1914 is under consideration; but there again, as I think I explained when discussing the Act of this year, further communications have to be made with the various Dominions, and correspondence and consideration are still continuing. I have given my noble 183 and gallant friend the particulars for which he asked. As to the Committee which was mentioned by Lord Forester, I am not quite certain to which Committee he refers. Then, as to the Duke of Cumberland and the Duke of Albany, I am not in a position to say what is the exact position, but when I have informed myself I will inform my noble and gallant friend. As to the actual Resolution which has been moved and seconded—
§ LORD BERESFORDCan the noble Viscount tell me what he is going to do about interned aliens? Are they going to be let loose in the country or not?
§ VISCOUNT SANDHURSTI think I said that the position was not changed. They are under the same restrictions, and in the case of alien enemies are being interned or being repatriated as before. As to the Resolution, I do not know whether my noble and gallant friend really means to press it. I have given him the very best information I can, and of course I am at his disposal at any time for further information, so far as I am able to give it. I suggest to my noble and gallant friend that he should be satisfied with the discussion.
§ LORD BERESFORDI am very sorry, but I am not at all satisfied, and I shall press the Motion to a Division.
§ LORD CHEYLESMOREMy Lords, as a member of the Aliens Advisory Committee, may I be allowed to say one word? Of course, I am not able to tell the House all that I know about the Committee, but I can answer the question asked by the noble Lord about that particular Committee. The Watch Committee was an independent Committee started by some members of the House of Commons, and I should be sorry to think that that Committee has anything whatever to do with the official Aliens Advisory Committee on which I have the honour to be a member.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LINCOLNSHIREMy Lords, my noble friend, the Lord Chamberlain, as he always does, has made a very lucid and courteous speech, but I can hardly think that we can consider it in any way as a reassuring one. He will correct me if I am wrong, but I think he told us that at the present moment, after four and a half years of the most dreadful 184 war the world has ever seen, we still have 5,000 good-charactered German alien enemies in our midst; and if I am not wrong, he also told us that these "desirable" persons are accompanied by 5,000 good-charactered females. This debate, if it has shown anything, has shown us conclusively, from the speeches of Lord Sydenham and Lord Gisborough, that though the war is over the alien danger is very far from being over. In fact, we are already threatened with another large contingent of these undesirable persons of enemy origin, for the news was in The Times of this morning that Austrian business men are now all agog to know how soon they can return to England, and that every barber and waiter thinks that his passage to Dover is now secured. That is the cheering news which we read in this morning's papers.
I think the whole country is under a debt of gratitude to my noble and gallant friend for again bringing this most important question before your Lordships' House. I do not in many things see eye to eye with my noble friend. In the old days I have always been brought up to look upon him as the incarnation of everything dreadful and dangerous in politics, but on this occasion I am entirely on the same platform with him, and if he goes to a Division I shall be perfectly prepared to follow him into the Lobby. I think we owe a great deal to Lord Beresford. It will be in the memory of the House that early in July, about the very worst time of the war, when the Germans had us by the throat, or thought they had, and expected to be able at their leisure either to seize the Channel ports or to seize Paris, my noble friend Lord Beresford brought this danger before your Lordships' House. He was met very courteously and was told that the Government had this under consideration. Surely enough, in two or three days a milk and water Aliens Bill was brought forward in your Lordships' House. But not one single person had the courage to say a word in favour of it. Of course as nobody wanted to interfere, or to harrass the Committee of Public Safety in those dreadful days, the Second Reading, as Lord Halsbury said, was not challenged. and it was understood that when we went into Committee an attempt would be made to do the best we possibly could to strengthen this milk and water Bill and to bring it more into harmony with public opinion.
185 Two days afterwards, while we were still in the middle of this European hurly-burly, the Bill went into Committee. Then the Government, for the first time, showed their hand, or rather (if I may be permitted to say so) they showed their teeth. They told us very plainly that the Government were determined on four points. They said they considered that it was absolutely necessary for the safety and welfare of this country and of the Dominions, although part of the host voting power was fighting for the country at the Front and was therefore disfranchised, that naturalised or domesticated or domiciled, wild or tame aliens—I do not know what to call them—should have the right to vote for Members of the British Parliament at this ghastly time. Not only so, but that these men would be permitted to stand for the British Parliament; and, further, that some selected persons among these men—a sort of "key industry" among them—were privileged to be raised to the highest possible dignities and to receive the highest honours and awards which this country could bestow. And not only that, but the Government claimed the right to go on with the power of recommending more persons of that stamp and calibre for honours in the future.
So determined were the Government upon these points that they carried the Bill by a coup de main. From the opposite side of the House a bombshell was thrown amongst the persons who were trying to make this Bill stronger and more in harmony with the people's wishes. This bombshell asphyxiated the House and paralysed all debate, and the whole thing was over in fifty minutes. By this coup de main the Government carried the milk and water Bill through Committee exactly as it was brought in. The least said about that the better. But this can be said, and I think ought to be said—when the smoke-screen passed away and when we had our gas masks off, and when we could think and see clearly, it became evident that a very dangerous precedent had been set; in the House. I have no wish to say more about that; perhaps the least said the better. But I do express, and I believe most people would express, the most earnest hope that no other Government in future will resort to such tactics.
In that debate a question was asked. I think perhaps, if your Lordships will allow me in order to be accurate, I will read the 186 question. It was a pertinent question, and it was this—"What special services and benefactions to the State have these alien gentlemen rendered which would justify the abandonment for ever of a principle which the bulk of the nation wish to see restored and which we believe they are determined to carry out?" The answer was immediately given. It was very plain, yet at the same tune rather bewildering. The answer was to the effect that honours were justified by, amongst other reasons, circumstances and facts within the knowledge of many members of your Lordships' House in connection with "confidential matters of which the public knows little" and with "relations with individuals of which the public knows nothing."
When I heard these mystic sentences I must say I thought that the Government, in the language of the day, were simply "asking for it," What happened? These words were printed, I suppose in every newspaper, certainly in every London newspaper, and when workmen went to work, when the men on the underground railway and in the motor omnibuses read the paper, they said "Good gracious! It is as we thought. From the Government Benches last night there was confirmation of the existence of what we thought and what we feared existed, and that is the 'Hidden Hand.'" As regards the "Hidden Hand" there are a good many people who would say that it is what the Prime Minister would call "blank nonsense"—that there is no such thing. I am unable to give an opinion. I do not know. I am a child in these matters. At the same time I think many of us would be inclined to go some distance with those who deny the existence of this "Hidden Hand."
Whether there be one or not I do not know, but what is perfectly plain is that there is a danger in the hand openly plunged into the well-filled German pocket. We see it all over the world. German money has been, and is now I suppose, lavished with an open hand all over the world. There is an enormous circulation of Germany money in this country, not only by banks but by private individuals as well. That is a fact, and it is well known by everybody. Of course, this gives rise to rumours—mischievous rumours—and few people realise, certainly in this House, how mischievous and how widespread these rumours are. What has 187 been the result? A cave has been formed in the great Conservative and Unionist Party by men who, leaving the great and glorious traditions of their Party, have formed themselves into what is called the National Party. And I believe the chief plank in that platform is the danger that arises from this German alien question, and they have been driven to advocate the extreme policy of "intern them all."
I am grateful to your Lordships for having permitted me to speak at this length. I have one more word to say in conclusion, and I am very sorry that Lord Parmoor has just left the House. I have a word to say to those who champion the cause, and chivalrously champion the cause with the best intentions, of the great alien financiers, those men who are known in fashionable, horticulatural, and sporting circles, who take a great part in our public life. I also have a word to say to those who wish to extend the protection of Magna Charta to the German barbers and waitresses and to those governesses and ladies' maids and domestic servants who are familiarly known under the name of "the good old Annas," and also to the Members of Parliament who, also with the best intentions, are most anxious to discuss the peace terms with their pet enemy Boche Socialists. These things may be said in either House of Parliament; they can be easily said especially when men get the nods and smiles of approbation of either the Front or the Opposition benches. But it is a very different thing when men have to stand up on the public platform and advocate policies such as these. Everybody who has spoken on platforms knows that there is a thing that has to be reckoned with. Every public speaker has to reckon with it. It is called the "voice." And in this case it may be the voice of the men in hospital blue, of the tortured prisoners, of the women and children who were sunk in the "Lusitania," and the voice of the 15,000 members of the Mercantile Marine who were sent to death by the treachery of spies who belonged to a people who have been openly described by the Foreign Secretary of the present Government as "a nation of brutes and beasts." I think that those voices will ask all these men, collectively and individually, not indeed to break, as has been already said, with friendly foreign nations, but to reconsider their own peculiar position with regard to their intimate relations with aliens of enemy origin. I am not in the habit of 188 speaking for other people, but I think I am voicing the opinion of some of my friends when I say to them, We recognise your chivalry, we recognise your high principles, we recognise your Christian intentions, we remember the splendid sacrifices and the services that you have rendered during the last four years to the country; we make this last appeal, in all sincerity, to you, and with such a record as you have it is hard to believe that for the first time you, who have done so much, will refuse to answer to your countrymen's call.
§ VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDSMy Lords, if no member of the Government is going to answer the noble Marquess who has just sat down, I would like to say a few words myself. First of all I would say this. I have the greatest regard and respect for the noble Viscount the Lord Chamberlain, who is representing the Government today. I am sure that in the most courteous way he does his very best to explain the ideas and views of a Department with which, technically, he has nothing to do, and we are very much obliged to him. But I think we are entitled in this House to something more than that. Here is a Motion put down by a noble Lord asking about Government policy. In the early part of the afternoon, when there is a chance of showing off, noble Lords in the Cabinet come down and speak. I think in this debate we are entitled to have on the Front Bench at least one noble Lord of Cabinet rank who can tell us officially what the views of the Government are. The fact that you have a Question on the Paper asking for the Government policy and you have not a member of the Government of Cabinet rank to answer, I do not think shows very great respect to this House.
The noble Viscount who replied did his best, and, as I say, we are obliged to him. He spoke of alien enemies, but he was not in a position, I think, to tell us of the people who technically are not alien enemies, but whom we hope will be alien enemies very soon—I mean the people whose cases are now being investigated by the Committee. When the Committee to denaturalise was appointed, we were told that the cases would be taken first of the people who have been naturalised since the war. There are only two or three hundred of them. Some of them have been reported upon—the unimportant ones. Some of them have not been reported upon—the three or four important ones. Why 189 have they not been reported upon? I do not know. But I do know this, that the Home Office has been very lenient to these people from the beginning. What I suspect is happening is that the cases have been put off. If it was decided that these men were to be denaturalised, as the war is still going on, technically they would have to go to concentration camps, and they would be very uncomfortable. I think that it what their friends are trying to avoid. Those cases ought to be taken now. There are very few of them. Why are they not being taken?
We now come to the Civil Service. I want to point this out. Here is a Motion which asks about aliens and what steps are being taken to prevent other than British-born subjects being employed for the future in the Naval, Military, and Civil Services—for the future. I say. The noble Viscount does his best. He had his brief in his hand. What did he tell us? He told us what we all know, what the regulations are that have been laid down by the Government for the duration of the war—that men of alien birth are not to serve in the Civil Service for the duration of the war. We know that. But that is not what the noble Lord opposite asks. He asks about the future—that is, after the war. He asks that legislation may be introduced to carry it out. The Government do not answer. The noble Viscount has not answered it, nobody has attempted to answer it; there is no member of the Government to answer it. Where is the authority to answer it? Here is a Motion put on the Paper of this House, and it has not been answered at all. My Lords, that is remarkable.
This is a serious matter. I mentioned one particular case in connection with a body of which I myself am a member—the Road Board. There is one prominent person, naturalised only ten years ago, who has only been got out of the Road Board service a few months ago. He is out for the duration of the war. Is he to come back to the Road Board in three months if peace is made? That is what the noble Lord opposite was asking, and that is what the Government has not answered. They have not tried to answer it, and it is the vital question. Of one thing I am certain, and that is that after the war you are going to have unemployment of the officer class. I have been interesting myself in that matter for some time, and 190 with some friends I have started a society to deal with it. I am quite certain that after the war you will be extremely lucky in this country if you have not thousands of men of the officer class out of employment and not able to obtain any employment that is suitable to them. Are aliens to go back to the Civil Service—that is what we are asking the Government—and do work which an ex-officer could do? Is a German who has only been naturalised ten years to go back to the Road Board and be paid a salary which could quite easily and fitly and properly be earned by an ex-officer? That is the Question on the Paper, and the Government have not answered it.
Your Lordships may say, "Is there going to be this unemployment of officers?" You have seen in the papers that the Labour Ministry is busying itself with all appointments. I will tell your Lordships what has happened. The Department put in the front window "Employment for officers and men," but they are dealing not only with soldiers and officers but with civilians. The civilians are being demobilised. This week demobilisation of civilians in munition factories has begun. Domobilisation of the Army has not begun, and by the time the Army is demobilised many of the best berths, if not all of them, will be in the possession of these ex-civilians out of the munition factories. They will be filled by men who are technically officers. A good many who are technically officers came to my society, and we got interested in them. We found out that they are officers at home—they are in civil service—and they have been given a uniform and military rank. They come round and ask you to look for wok for them as ex-officers. As far as we are concerned, we are not troubling about ex-officers who have been doing only civil work at home. We are looking after real soldiers. But the Government is not. The Labour Ministry is looking after the civilians, the men who are being demobilised now.
We are asking the Government a simple question. I do not know whether the noble Viscount will speak again or not, but I ask him to read the Motion that my noble and gallant friend has moved, and tell us whether the Government intend for the future that naturalised aliens shall not be employed in our Civil Service. Unless the Government does something, these aliens must be taken back. Take our own 191 case at the Road Board. If the war ends in three months this particular man can walk into the office, and has a right to take a seat at his own desk unless the Government introduce legislation in order to keep these men out and let ex-officers in. It is a simple question, but nobody has attempted to answer it. Up till now those of us who have raised this subject in the House have been dealing with a public danger. We shall raise it again and again until it is met, but perhaps on a different ground. Some of us like British citizens better than foreigners—a good deal better—and we feel this matter of the employment of foreigners much more strongly now than we did five years ago. You will not be able, my Lords, to keep a foreigner in the Civil Service without having this matter raised again and again. I am a supporter of the Government. I want to strengthen the Government, but I do not want members of the Government to give such answers as we have had to-day. I want definite, straight answers to definite, straight questions; and if the Government want to strengthen themselves in the country they cannot do that more than by answering plainly and distinctly this particular question. Let the Government say, "We will introduce legislation. We will clear foreigners out of the Army, Navy, and Civil Service, and when the ex-officers and men come back from the war we will see that they are first and not third."
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD FINLAY)My Lords, complaint has been made by the noble Viscount who has just spoken that no Minister of Cabinet rank has replied from the Front Bench upon this subject. We should all have been very glad if the Leader of the House had been here, but he is, I am informed, engaged at this moment at a Cabinet Council, and it is impossible for him to be here. And the noble Earl, Lord Crawford, who very often leads in the absence of the noble Earl the Leader of the House, is, I am informed, suffering from indisposition, and is actualy in bed, so that a desire to minimise the importance of the question is not to be deduced from the absence of the noble Lords I have mentioned.
With regard to the reply made by the Lord Chamberlain, I put it to the House that the noble Viscount could not be expected, on an occasion of this kind, to give a detailed outline of the intended policy of the Government. He indicated the 192 principles upon which the Government intend to act, and I submit that it would hardly be reasonable to expect him to go further. May I remind the noble Viscount who has just spoken that we are on the eve of the Dissolution, and that the Motion on the Paper asks that the House should resolve that legislation to carry out this object "be immediately introduced." Does that mean be introduced into this Parliament or the next? Surely it would hardly be reasonable at the end of the existence of this Parliament to rush into legislation. The question is one which must be dealt with by the next Parliament, and in these circumstances I submit that we should make ourselves a little ridiculous if we were to pass a Resolution of this kind in the very last days of the present Parliament.
I suggest to my noble and gallant friend who has put this Motion down that there can be no doubt whatever that the case of officers and men, to whom we owe everything, who want employment after the war, will be most sympathetically considered, and I should hope that there is no danger of their being ousted from the employment which they desire and require for the maintenance of themselves and their families by the admission of others who have less strong claims upon the country. I trust, therefore, that my noble and gallant friend will be satisfied with the assurance that the whole subject will be most sympathetically considered, and will not ask the House in the very last days of the existence of this Parliament to pass a Resolution which, after all, adds nothing whatever to the effect of the debate which we have had.
§ LORD BERESFORDMy Lords, I am extremely sorry to differ from the noble and learned Lord, who says that we should not deal with this matter because these are the last days of the existence of the present Parliament. Your Lordships do not seem to be aware of the feeling of the country upon this matter. I would urge your Lordships to take it up and pass a Resolution. We cannot pass a Resolution that there should be immediate legislation but we can pass one saying that the matter shall be looked into. I am not averse to altering the Resolution a little. I am afraid I cannot abide by what the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, said. I desire to go to a Division, because I wish to know what the House thinks on this question. My noble friend opposite, 193 with the courtesy which we all admire, did his level best in a very difficult position, but he did not answer one of my questions, and those questions could have been answered. For instance, one of the points which I raised was the question of internment, and I was told it would be considered at the proper time. I asked—Are the people who are now interned going to be sent back to Germany? My noble friend answered that it was going to be as it is now. I do not know how it is now. I want to know definitely—Are they going to be sent back to Germany? Then, he did not answer me about the "indispensables." What are you going to do about them? I deny that they are indispensable. We have just as good British blood, and better. I am sorry, therefore, to disagree with the Lord Chancellor, but I cannot accept such answers as that these questions will be considered at the proper time. I am prepared to alter the words of my Motion, in deference to the Lord Chancellor's idea, so as to provide that legislation, instead of "immediately," should be "as soon as possible" introduced; but with that alteration I must respectfully ask your Lordships to divide and let us know what you think of it.
§ VISCOUNT SANDHURSTWould my noble and gallant friend accept the words "as soon as practicable"?
§ LORD BERESFORDYes, I will move it in that form.
§ Moved, That legislation to prevent other than British-born subjects being employed for the future in the Naval, Military, or Civil Services be as soon as practicable introduced.—(Lord Beresford.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.