§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
§ Moved, That the House do now resolve it self into Committee.—(The Earl of Crawford.)
LORD ROEMy Lords, may I have the pleasure of a word before the House enters upon the Committee stage of this Bill? I desire to be permitted to say, my Lords, how glad I am to support a measure which will have the effect of inducing many deserving people who now stand aloof, to take up teaching as a profession. As this is a question which I have considered for years, I am pleased, on the first occasion of my taking part in the business of this House, to say what a pleasure it is to find this Bill being passed.
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.
§ House in Committee accordingly.
§ [The EARL OF DONOUGRMORE in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1:
The EARL OF CRAWFORDI propose to submit to your Lordships four Amendments, all of a purely technical and drafting character, not changing or affecting the substance or policy of the Bill in any degree. The first Amendment is in Clause 1, and the other three in Clause 5.
§
Amendment moved—
Clause 1, page 2, line 26, leave out ("twenty years") and insert ("such number of years, not being less than twenty, as may be prescribed").—(The Earl of Crawford.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 2 to 4 agreed to.
§ Clause 5:
§ Amendments moved—
§ Clause 5, page 3, line 38, after ("employed") insert ("at whatever age")
§ Clause 5, page 4, line 24, after ("teacher") insert ("of any age")
§ Clause 5, page 4, line 26, leave out ("a grant-aided school") and insert ("recognised service ").—(The Earl of Crawford.)
§ In Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 6 to 14 agreed to.
§ Clause 15:
§ Power to make rules.
§ 15.—(1) The Board may, with the consent of the Treasury, make rules for carrying this Act into effect, and those rules may in particular provide—
- (a) For the manner in which, and the time within which, an application for a superannuation allowance or a gratuity is to be made;
- (b) For the notice to be given to teachers of their option not to accept this Act, and the manner in which and time within which that option is to be exercised;
- (c) For the notice to be given to teachers of their right to withdraw from a pensions scheme:
- (d) For the manner in which and the time within which any application for the recognition of service as qualifying service is to be made to the Board:
- (e) For the refusal or suspension of all or any part of a superannuation allowance or gratuity if the person to whom it is payable is wholly or partly maintained out of any public funds:
- (f) For allowing any such service as may be recorded in the case of a certificated teacher by virtue of the provisions of the Elementary School Teachers (War Service Superannuation) Act, 1914, to be treated in the case of any teacher as recognised or qualifying service for the purposes of this Act, and for determining what salary a teacher is for the purpose of computing the average salary to be regarded as receiving during any such service:
- (g) For determining what salaries teachers are to be treated as receiving for the purposes of this Act during any periods of absence on sick leave, and how far such periods are to be treated as service for the purposes of this Act:
- (h) For prescribing anything which under this Act is to be prescribed.
§ (2) All rules made under this section shall be laid as soon as may be before both Houses of Parliament.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY moved to insert the following proviso at the end of subsection (1): "Provided that in making rules under this Act with respect to teachers serving in non grant-aided schools which are open to inspection and are efficient, no differentiation shall be made by reason of the schools being connected with or not connected with any particular religious denomination."
§ The noble Marquess said: This Bill underwent, as I think I reminded your Lordships upon the Second Reading, one important change in passing through the House of Commons, and that was that the Government consented to admit under its purview schools which were not grant-aided but which were efficient and open to inspection. That is a very valuable concession, and makes this Bill more acceptable to many of us. I should have welcomed the Bill in any case, but with that addition it is a valuable measure. The effect of the acceptance of that Amendment in another place was to include a large number of schools which are extremely useful from the point of view of secondary education, providing as they do a great variety of type, being popular with a particular section of parents, and in many cases by their old tradition and by the position they occupy in public estimation, being very useful parts of the provision of secondary education. They have one additional advantage that they constitute a considerable saving to the public purse, because if the secondary education which is provided in these schools was not there provided—if they had ceased to exist, which might have been the effect of depriving them of the pensions scheme—then a much heavier charge would have been thrown upon the public in order to provide, at public expense, the necessary number of places which the closing of those schools would have made necessary;
§ For these reasons the Amendment which was accepted by the President of the Board of Education in another place was a very valuable one. That Amendment was ac- 66 chieved in paragraph 7 of Clause 17, on page 11. The last paragraph on the page sets forth one of the conditions which these non-grant-aided schools must fulfill in order to have the benefit of the Bill. Paragraph (d) says "satisfies such other conditions as may be prescribed as necessary or desirable for securing the public interest." That is a very general power. I am not calling it in question, because think that it is necessary that the Board of Education should reserve to itself the power of making certain regulations in order to satisfy the very necessary demands of public policy and public opinion in these matters. In Clause 15, which is the clause that we are now upon; it is provided that the Board may, with the consent of the Treasury, make rules for carrying this Act into effect. If your Lordships will look at the end of the subsection, line 49, on page 10, you will see that it says, "for prescribing anything which under this Act is to be prescribed," and one of the things which is to be prescribed is the paragraph (d) of Clause 17 to which I have called attention. One of the provisions of Clause 15 is, therefore, to give power to make rules for prescribing what is to be done under paragraph (d) of Clause 17.
§ Your Lordships may ask what is contemplated in these Regulations which may be prescribed under Clause 15 and 17. In my conviction in the vast majority of cases there are not only likely to be but there are certain to be very salutary rules. But there is one subject in regard to which Parliament has always been jealous lest, by means of an Act of Parliament or by Rules prescribed under the powers of a provision in an Act of Parliament, a school professing particular denominational views, and teaching particular denominational doctrine, should be placed at a disadvantage with other schools because of its particular denominational character—provided only that the teaching which it gives in other respects comes up to the recognised standards of efficiency which the State lays down. It is evidently possible that under this Rules clause there might be prescribed a certain Regulation which a school might be called upon to fulfill which would be inconsistent with its denominational character.
§
I know I shall be assured by the noble Earl that nothing of that kind is to be feared from the present President of the Board of Education. That may be so but
67
before I discuss that let me call attention to the precedents. First we have the precedent of the celebrated section 97 of the Elementary Education Act, 1870. That did not specifically deal with the difference between denominational and unsectarian under that name, but it did provide that the conditions for a Parliamentary grant to a public elementary school shall not give any preference or advantage to any school on the ground that it is or is not provided by a School Board. As I say, that did not expressly mention unsectarian schools, but of course it involved it, and that was the point of the provision. I take another precedent, the Act of 1902. The last precedent I quoted dealt with elementary education, but this one deals with secondary education. It does not deal, it is true, with grants of money from the Treasury, but it does deal with grants from the rates. This is what Parliament said—
A Council, in the application of money under this part of this Act, shall not require that any particular form of religious instruction or worship, or religious catechism, or formulary, which is distinctive of any particular denomination shall or shall not be used, taught, or practised in any school, college, or hostel, aided but not provided by the Council—
It is very parallel, except that it is rate money instead of tax money—
and no pupil shall on the ground of religious belief be excluded from, or placed in an inferior position in any school or hostel provided by the Council.
That, of course, was dealing with maintenance grants and this is dealing with pensions, but the principle applies to the one as to the other; and that was dealing with rates instead of tax money, but there, again, the principle applies to the one as to the other; and in the Act of 1902 it was expressly laid down that no difference was to be made in respect of the support from public money by reason of the denominational or undenominational character of the school.
§ When I am told that at present we have the great advantage of Mr. Fisher presiding over the Board of Education, and that, therefore, nothing is to be feared from regulations made by him, I would remind your Lordships that in 1902 the then President of the Board of Education was certainly above suspicion, because he belonged to the Party to which the noble Earl and I belong, yet it was thought necessary, although there was a Con- 68 servative and Unionist Minister of Education, to put in this strong saving clause, lest there should be some kind of possible victimisation (to use a word which is very common in another connection) on account of denominational belief. I do not know, for I have not heard, what particular danger Parliament at that time feared, as there was a Unionist and Conservative Government in power. It may have been a terror lest an undenominational school may have been put at a disadvantage. But you must not. I think, interpret an Act of Parliament in that way; you must not consider who is the President of the Board of Education at the moment. It may be a Unionist President, or it may be a Liberal; or it may have been a Unionist one when it was passed, and Parliament may have passed the regulation lest the Unionist one should become a Liberal, or his successor should be a Liberal.
§ We have an extremely distinguished, and I am bound to say a most satisfactory, President of the Board of Education, yet he might be succeeded at any moment by another President who is not so acceptable from every point of view. I think your Lordships will observe that I have addressed myself to this subject with every desire to avoid any language which may offend anybody's susceptibilities. I have learned of late to value so highly the contribution which Nonconformist religious bodies make to the religious equipment of the nation, that I should be intensely sorry if I said anything at all in your Lordships' House which would lead people to think that I for a moment looked upon them with anything except the most profound respect. But there is no doubt that upon subjects which men feel very deeply there is always the possibility of injustice. I should be sorry if it were the case that people in our country did not feel deeply on religion. I wish they felt more deeply; but I believe that the mass of the people have a profound respect for religion, and that some members of the nation feel for it most deeply.
§ You cannot avoid, if you have that very salutary frame of mind, a certain exaggeration. It is the necessary consequence of deep feeling, which leads people, or rather I should say misleads people, meaning to do absolutely right, into using the temporary power of a Parliamentary majority in order to place at a disadvantage those with whom they are not in religious agreement. 69 Let us suppose that at the General Election, which we are informed is about to take place, that contrary to all expectations a very great change was to take place in the complexion of the House of Commons, and that the next new Minister of Education was supported by gentlemen who, perhaps deeply religious themselves, took a view adverse to the teaching of definite denominational doctrine in secondary schools. Then it might be that regulations might be prescribed under this clause which would place the denominational schools at a disadvantage. Consequently, I suggest to your Lordships that in order, even if I put it no higher than this, to prevent any kind of anxiety in the minds of the religious managers of some of these secondary schools, it would be well to introduce a protective clause—not a one-sided clause but a clause to protect, alike, both schools which do teach definite religion and those which do not—that in neither case shall they be put at any disadvantage whatever on account of their denominational or undenominational character. I wish to impress upon your Lordships that this is intended to be an absolutely fair Amendment between the two, that it is supported by substantial precedent, and that it cannot do any harm, while it will allay a certain amount of apprehension, and that it ought according to the settled practice of Parliament to be inserted in respect of the allocation of money in any Education Bill.
§
Amendment moved—
Clause 15, page 10, after line 20, insert ("Provided that in making rules under this Act with respect to teachers serving in non grant-aided schools which are open to inspection and are efficient, no differentiation shall be made by reason of the schools being connected with or not connected with any particular religious denomination").—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDI am afraid that my noble friend seems to have had some inkling of the reply which I propose to make—namely, that while sympathetic towards what he has said and urged, it is considered by the Board of Education that there are serious administrative objections, and indeed that were the clause, as he outlined it, added to the Bill, it would not necessarily act as he desires—namely, as a protective measure. I will, with your Lordships' permission, state in some detail the attitude of the Board of Education on this subject.
In the first place I would ask your Lordships to remember that this Bill, as intro- 70 duced, was primarily, and indeed was solely, intended for teachers in grant-aided schools. That is the first, and indeed at the outset was the sole, function of this measure. In another place, with the sanction of the Treasury, the Bill was extended to apply to non-aided schools, which are, of course, mainly secondary schools. Teachers in these establishments were admitted to the superannuation benefits laid down for the teachers in the grant-aided schools. It would have been very easy at that stage to have refused altogether to agree to this extension, but it was thought, rightly thought, that it was well to deal with all the teachers synchronously and to extend the benefits to the non-aided school teachers by an Amendment to this Bill, rather than wait for an amending Act at some subsequent date.
Mr. Fisher appreciated the changes and chances of political life and the difficulty which might arise next year, or the year after, of passing an amending measure, and so he seized this opportunity which happily presented itself. He quite appreciated the difficulty in which the teachers in the non-aided schools would be placed owing to the enhanced competition which might be expected to follow the improved status accruing to teachers in grant-aided schools as a result of the superannuation system. The Board of Education, therefore, must not be considered unsympathetic towards helping teachers in the non-aided schools, but I must at the same time point out that this is an accretion to the Bill.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYIt expresses the wishes of the House of Commons. It has that honour.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDYes, of course. I do not depreciate either the teachers in the non-aided school or the wise action taken by the House of Commons. What I want to point out is that in the original Bill, as drafted, there would have been perhaps 160,000 or 170,000 teachers affected, the bulk of whom, of course, are in elementary schools, whereas under the subsequent Amendment dealing with the non-aided schools, probably not more than 2,500 teachers would be affected. Lord Salisbury is afraid that the latter category of teachers will be placed in a disadvantageous position. He said that there might arise a recognised standard of efficiency which might be used against their interests. 71 But I must really point out to the House that, while Mr. Fisher was quite ready to open the door to the admission of these teachers to the superannuation scheme, the Board of Education has no official knowledge whatever of the existence of these schools. The noble Marquess said, If a proper standard of efficiency is maintained in these schools why should not the teachers have the full benefit, and why should not this Amendment be passed? There is no recognised standard of efficiency in these schools. Technically the Board of Education does not know of their existence.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYThe noble Earl will forgive me for interrupting him. He himself has provided the standard, because if he will look at Clause 17, to which I called his attention he will find in paragraph (b) of sub-section (vii) the words occur "is open to inspection by the Board and shown to the satisfaction of the Board to be efficient." The Board, therefore, must have in its mind some standard of efficiency; otherwise, this would not be an operative provision at all.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDOf course, I am speaking of before this Bill comes into being. The existence of these schools is unknown. When this Act is passed, and when public money is paid to the teachers in these schools, it is, I think, clear to everybody that the Board of Education must have, I do not say some control—
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYOh, certainly.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYCertainly.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDAnd some supervision of the standard in order to ensure that public money is not going to be thrown away. I do not think Lord Salisbury gave sufficient attention in his remarks to the fact that these Rules have to be laid before Parliament for a period of, I think, fourteen days. That is laid down in the fifteenth clause of the Bill, and the procedure of the Statutory Rules Publication Act is followed in this case. It is not only either House of Parliament that is able to object to these rules, or to criticise. Practically anybody is entitled to 72 raise objections, if he desires to do so. That is a great safeguard, and is a safeguard which I think has not had sufficient attention paid to it. If this Act comes into operation early next year, the rules will have to be made pretty soon, and I am sure that Mr. Fisher would not have opened the door to the admission of these teachers unless he had meant that a substantial number of the schools should profit by the conditions permitted under the Bill. Some conditions there have got to be.
In some cases I think it is admitted that certain defects may occur, and a particular case in point would be where there are claims of non-local boarding schools—many of which have high fees and perhaps somewhat exclusive tradition—on state funds, schools which are considerably weaker than the great mass of grant-aided schools. It is hoped that many of these local schools which at present receive no grant-aid will come on the list during the next five years, as is allowed under the seventeenth clause. One hopes that it may be much easier for them to do so than it is at present. That, of course, involves a reconsideration of the grant regulations, which it is understood may be undertaken in the future.
I wish to refer to a point on which Lord Sailsbury laid some emphasis. It was this. Whereas he himself would be quite ready to entrust the interests of these schools and of these teachers to a President of the Board of Education whom he knows and whom he trusts—Mr. Fisher, if you please—he feels sceptical about who Mr. Fisher's successor may be. Well, I understand the argument; I am perfectly familiar with it; I daresay in time gone by I have used the argument myself; but in this case I think there are safeguards which are adequate. Personally, I am interested in denominational schools, but I must say think it is to be deprecated that we should raise what is unquestionably a denominational issue on this particular Bill and on this particular occasion. The President has to frame rules under this clause. I am quite sure that in the present temper of the public the President will be trusted, and must be trusted, so to frame his rules, that he will have the support of public opinion in keeping out of them anything which could be said to savour of intolerance or improper discrimination against a particular class of school or teacher. So far as Mr. Fisher is 73 concerned I have his assurance that is his own personal attitude.
But I wish to point this out to Lord Salisbury who says, "What about Mr. Fisher's successor? When the rules have been once framed and interests created under them, it will be extremely difficult for any future Minister so to stiffen them as to injure those interests, or to create a grievance on the part of the schools concerned, or of the individual teachers. I do not say that Mr. Fisher's successor, if actuated by sinister motives, could not find a hundred ways of circumventing the words which Lord Salisbury proposes, even if we put them in the Bill. I am quite certain that the malignity of man could swim through the protective clause which Lord Salisbury has drafted, and if somebody means determinedly to set out to evade it, the Amendment will be of course quite ineffective. On the other hand, from an administrative point of view, to put this Amendment in the Bill is going to be extremely awkward even for a man like Mr. Fisher, a Minister who is actuated by the most honest regard for the public interest.
In the first place, from a technical point of view, this Amendment would undoubtedly create a position of uncertainty, and uncertainty in itself is to be deprecated. It would also be doubtful under these words, if a rule which in fact operated so as to affect the denominational schools more widely than other schools, was or was not invalid subject to the words of Lord Salisbury's Amendment. I do not say that no rules ought, in the public interest and in consideration of the receipt of public money, to be made affecting in any way the giving of denominational instruction, or the obligations of scholars to receive denominational instructions, or the adherence by teachers to a particular religious denomination. I make no such claim. But, however devoted a man may be to the Church with which he is connected, it must be recognised that the State cannot and must not disclaim all interest in such matters, or leave a school to which it pays a public subsidy to act as it pleases. Some measure of control, therefore, is essential, but under Lord Salisbury's Amendment it would be uncertain whether the State, acting through the Board of Education, could impose any conditions at all in such matters, because the conditions from their very nature could only arise in the case of de- 74 nominational schools, and therefore could be considered to be injurious to their interests compared with those of ordinary grant-aided schools.
I have said on previous occasions and I think from what I gather to-night that Lord Salisbury shares my views—that a better public spirit prevails than used to be the case a few years ago, that anti-denominational prejudices are less acute than formerly, and that we should act wisely in trusting to the responsible Minister of Education a very wide discretion in dealing with these non-aided schools. If that discretion be exercised narrowly or unfairly towards any interests for which Lord Salisbury specially speaks, the procedure under the Bill gives full opportunity for challenging it on the publication of rules either by members of the public who are interested and concerned or by members of both Houses of Parliament. Under these conditions I regret, my Lords, that I do not see my way to accept the first Amendment moved by Lord Salisbury.
§ LORD SOUTHWARKI should like to put a question to my noble friend in the interests of the governors of schools which are not rate-aided, but which are inspected by the Board of Education and recognised as efficient, who do not wish their governing bodies added to or interfered with, What length of time, after the Rules under Clause 15 are laid, will be allowed before they are put into operation, and will Parliament have the opportunity of amending them? It is a very important question affecting schools which would like to avail themselves of this superannuation scheme, and where it would really not be in the interests of education to interfere with them. Will the Board of Education have power to say that these schools may continue to be governed in the same way as now without any alteration in the governing body?
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDI shall have to inquire into that point and on the Third Reading or Report stage of the Bill make a carefully considered statement on the subject. For the moment, I am afraid I must plead guilty to not being able to answer the question without consulting the experts.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI did not hope by my Amendment to control the malignity of a sort of criminal President 75 of the Board of Education. We do not expect such persons in our well governed State. My noble friend had no difficulty in proving (but he really did not require to prove it), that if you once imagine unlimited malignity on the part of a Minister of the Crown he can avoid most statutes. That is perfectly true, but we need not legislate from that point of view. What we really wish is to express the view of Parliament, with the confident conviction that any Minister who would be likely to be at the Board of Education in the life of any of us, or of our grandchildren or great grandchildren, will administer his office bona fide. So I do not think that that argument is of any value. But listening with all my might I tried to find out what the noble Earl's argument really was, and at last I think I did discover it. I think what he is afraid of is that there might be some excessive form of religious observance or eccentricity, which it would be right for the President of the Board of Education to check. I really could not find any other argument of any substance in all that he said. Personally I would take my chance of that extremely improbably event. If that is all that the noble Earl has to say I think it would have been wiser for him to have accepted the Amendment. It would have been clear, if he had done so, that the President of the Board of Education was determined to administer this Act without any kind of discrimination against denominational schools. But I have great confidence in the present President of the Board of Education, and I do admit quite candidly that the first Rules made under this Act are the most important Rules which can be made under it. It is perfectly true that there is a certain difficulty in altering them once they are made—a certain difficulty in public opinion. And therefore, as I have received from the noble Earl assurance of the strong determination of the President of the Board of Education to administer this Act without discrimination against denominational schools I shall not ask your Lordships to divide upon this Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave withdrawn.
§ Clause 15 agreed to.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI do not want to detain your Lordships. I have an impression that the noble Earl is going to accept the second Amendment standing in my name. Is that so?
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYIn that case I will simply move it.
§ Amendment moved—
§ After clause 15, insert as a new clause:
§ "Power of governing bodies to comply with conditions.
§ "Notwithstanding any provision regulating the trusts or management of a school, the governing body of the school shall have power to fulfill any conditions which may be required to be fulfilled in order that service in that school may be recognised service for the purpose of this Act"—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Remaining clauses agreed to.