Lords Sitting of 5 November 1918

COUNTY COURTS (IRELAND) BILL. [H.L.]
LORD SHANDON: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to amend the Civil Bill Courts (Ireland) Act, 1851.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a—(Lord Shandon.)
On Question, Bill read la, and to be printed.

SEPARATION AND DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
LORD BUCKMASTER: My Lords, I desire to introduce a Bill to amend the law relating to separation and divorce, and I beg to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a—(Lord Buckmaster.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

LICENSED STOCKBROKERS (IRELAND) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
SOUTH METROPOLITAN GAS BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

THE PRISONERS AGREEMENT.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I should like to ask my noble friend Lord Newton whether he has any information to give the House relative to the ratification of the Prisoners Agreement with Germany.
THE ASSISTANT UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD NEWTON): My Lords, I am sure that the House will learn with great satisfaction that we received a message from Germany yesterday, to the effect that the Germans have abandoned their preposterous claims with regard to German civilians in China, and are prepared to ratify the Agreement.

TERMS OF ARMISTICE WITH AUSTRIA.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL(EARL CURZON OF KEDLETON):My Lords, I think the House would like such information as I am in a position to give it in regard to the Conferences of the Allies which have been meeting at Versailles, and about the important events of the past week. The Conferences were attended by Ministers representative of France, Italy, and Great Britain; by Colonel House, as representing the President of the United States; by a number of other Ministers of the Allied Governments; by the naval and military advisers of the Allied Governments, and by the representatives of Japan, Belgium, Serbia, Greece, and Portugal, and also of the Czecho-Slovaks.
The first matter to which the Supreme War Council gave its attention was the final elimination of Turkey from the war. The terms of the armistice with Turkey and the conditions under which it was signed have already been made public, and I need say little more on that subject. The conditions of the armistice not only deprived Germany of her Eastern Ally, but they give to the Allied Governments the command of the Black Sea—a matter of great importance from the point of view of the future conduct of the war.
Early last week the Commander-in-Chief of the Austro-Hungarian Army sent a parlementaire across the lines to General Diaz, asking for the conditions upon which the Allies would grant an armistice. After the fullest consultation both with their naval and military advisers, the Supreme War Council agreed upon the conditions, and they were immediately despatched to General Diaz for transmission to the Austro-Hungarian Commander-in-Chief and Government. The terms as communicated to Austria-Hungary were as follows:—
Military Clauses
1. The immediate cessation of hostilities by land, sea and air.
2. Total demobilisation of the Austro-Hungarian Army and immediate withdrawal of all Austro-Hungarian forces operating on the front from the North Sea to Switzerland. Within Austro-Hungarian territory, limited as in Clause 3 below, there shall only be maintained as an

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organised military force a maximum of twenty divisions, reduced to pre-war peace effectives. Half the Divisional, Corps and Army artillery and equipment shall be collected at points to be indicated by the Allies and United States of America for delivery to them, beginning with all such material as exists in the territories to be evacuated by the Austro-Hungarian forces.
3. Evacuation of all territories invaded by Austria-Hungary since the beginning of war. Withdrawal within such periods as shall be determined by the Commander-in-Chief of the Allied forces on each front of the Austro-Hungarian Armies behind a line fixed so as to provide that the Austro-Hungarian Armies have to retire behind a line which affords a strategic safeguard for Italy's Alpine frontier. From the Swiss frontier this line follows the watershed of the Rhaetian, Carnic, and Julian Alps to the Gulf of Fiume (excluding the port of that name). It compels Austria-Hungary to evacuate all the Tyrol south of the Bemner Pass, and also to evacuate the Carso Plateau and the Istrian Peninsula. Further south the Austro-Hungarian forces have to evacuate the Province of Dalmatia and the Dalmatian Islands, with the exception of the islands in the Gulf of Spalato. All territories thus evacuated will be occupied by the troops of the Allies and of the United States of America. All military and railway equipment of all kinds (including coal), belonging to or within these territories, to be left in situ and surrendered to the Allies according to special orders given by the Commanders-in-Chief of the forces of the Associated Powers on the different fronts. No new destruction, pillage, or requisition to be done by enemy troops in the territories to be evacuated by them and occupied by the forces of the Associated Powers.
4. The Allies shall have the right of free movement over all road and rail and waterways in Austro-Hungarian territory, and of the use of the necessary Austrian and Hungarian means of transportation. The Armies of the Associated Powers shall occupy such strategic points in Austria-Hungary at such times as they may deem necessary to enable them to conduct military operations or to maintain order. They shall have the right of requisition on payment for the troops of the Associated Powers wherever they may be.
5. Complete evacuation of all German troops within fifteen days, not only from
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the Italian and Balkan fronts, but from all Austro-Hungarian territory. Internment of all German troops which have not left Austria-Hungary within that date.
6. The administration of the evacuated territories of Austria-Hungary will be entrusted to the local authorities under the control of the Allied and Associated Armies of occupation.
7. The immediate repatriation without reciprocity of all Allied prisoners of war and interned subjects, and of civil populations evacuated from their homes, on conditions to be laid down by the Commanders-in-Chief of the forces of the Associated Powers on the various fronts.
8. Sick and wounded who cannot be removed from evacuated territory will be cared for by Austro-Hungarian personnel who will be left on the spot with the medical material required.
Naval Conditions
1. Immediate cessation of all hostilities at sea, and definite information to be given as to the location and movements of all Austro-Hungarian ships. Notification to be made to neutrals that freedom of navigation in all territorial waters is given to the Naval and Mercantile Marines of the Allied and Associated Powers, all questions of neutrality being waived.
2. Surrender to the Allies and United States of America of fifteen Austro-Hungarian submarines, completed between the years 1910 and 1918, and of all German submarines which are in or may hereafter enter Austro-Hungarian territorial waters. All other Austro-Hungarian submarines to be paid off and completely disarmed, and to remain under the supervision of the Allies and United States of America.
3. Surrender to the Allies and United States of America, with their complete armament and equipment, of three battleships, three light cruisers, nine destroyers, twelve torpedo boats, one minelayer, six Danube monitors, to be designated by the Allies and the United States of America. All other surface warships (including river craft) are to be concentrated in Austro-Hungarian naval bases to be designated by the Allies and the United States of America, and are to be paid off and completely disarmed and placed under the supervision of the Allies and United States of America.
4. Freedom of navigation to all warships and merchant ships of the Allied and Associated Powers to be given in the Adriatic and up the river Danube and its tributaries in the territorial waters and territory of Austria-Hungary. The Allies and Associated Powers shall have the right to sweep up all mine-fields and obstructions, and the positions of these are to be indicated. In order to ensure the freedom of navigation on the Danube, the Allies and the United States of America shall be empowered to occupy or to dismantle all fortifications or defence works.
5. The existing Blockade conditions set up by the Allied and Associated Powers are to remain unchanged, and all Austro-Hungarian merchant ships found at sea are to remain liable to capture, save exceptions which may be made by a Commission nominated by the Allies and United States of America.
6. All Naval aircraft are to be concentrated and immobilised in Austro-Hungarian bases to be designated by the Allies and United States of America.
7. Evacuation of all the Italian coasts and of all ports occupied by Austria-Hungary outside their national territory, and the abandonment of all floating craft, naval materials, equipment, and materials for inland navigation of all kinds.
8. Occupation by the Allies and the United States of America of the land and sea fortifications and the islands which form the defences and of the dockyards and arsenal at Pola.
9. All merchant vessels held by Austria-Hungary belonging to the Allies and Associated Powers to be returned.
10. No destruction of ships or of materials to be permitted before evacuation, surrender, or restoration.
11. All naval and mercantile marine prisoners of war of the Allied and Associated Powers in Austor-Hungarian hands to be returned without reciprocity.
We gave the Austro-Hungarian Government until twelve midnight on Sunday to accept these terms. On Sunday afternoon we received the news that these conditions had been accepted, and that General Diaz had signed an armistice which was to come into operation on Monday—yesterday—at 3 p.m. The most important point about these terms is that they give to the Allies the free use of Austro-Hungarian territory and communications for the pur-
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pose of operations of war. When we consider that the events of the past few weeks have liberated all the Allied forces which have hitherto been operating against Turkey, against Bulgaria, and against Austria-Hungary, to be used for the great converging final attack upon Germany, the full significance of the terms which I have just read will be apparent to all. I am glad to be able to announce that Marshal Foch, by the unanimous decision of the Governments concerned, has been placed in supreme strategic direction of all the forces operating against Germany on all fronts in this the last and decisive phase of the war.
There are two other remarks I should like to make on this subject. In the first place, I think we ought all to recognise the great debt of gratitude we owe to the Italian Army and to General Diaz for the great victory they have won. This victory means the final removal of the danger which has threatened Italian liberty and Italian security for many centuries. I would, therefore, ask the House to join me in expressing their heartfelt admiration and gratitude to the Italian Army and people for the great and invaluable victory they have just gained. I should like also to pay tribute to the very real part which has been taken in achieving this victory by the British troops under the command of Lord Cavan. They have played a rôle in this battle fully worthy of the unforgetable achievements of their compatriots on the Western Front.
The other thing I would like to do, my Lords, is to offer my congratulations to the Czecho-Slovak and Jugo-Slav peoples, who have thrown off the yoke of their oppressors and joined themselves openly with the Allies. These little nations, which have stood out so long and with such heroism against Germanic domination, may rest assured that the Allies intend to come to their aid as fast as they possibly can.
After thus disposing of the questions of the terms of armistice with Turkey and Austria-Hungary, the Supreme War Council proceeded to consider the answer which they should make to the Despatch of the President of the United States covering his correspondence from the German Government, which has been made public, and the reply that they should give to the German request for an armistice. I am unable to give the House any information on this subject further than to say that after the

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fullest deliberation with their naval and military advisers, complete agreement was reached among the Allies. Their conclusions have been transmitted to the President of the United States, with the request that he should inform the German Government that if they wish to know the conditions of armistice upon which the Allies are agreed they should make the application to Marshal Foch in the usual military form. If an application is made, a British naval representative will be associated with Marshal Foch. Whatever the reply will be, the Associated Powers await the issue with perfect confidence.

EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2:
Electoral divisions.
2.—(1) For the purpose of such elections, the Secretary for Scotland shall, as soon as may be after the passing of this Act, by order divide each education area into electoral divisions, and in determining the boundaries thereof, he shall have regard, so far as may be, to the boundaries of wards in scheduled burghs, and districts, burghs and parishes in counties.
(2) Before making an order under this and the following section, the Secretary for Scotland shall cause the proposed order to be published in such manner as to make the same known to all persons interested, and shall, after considering any objections and representations respecting the proposed order, and causing a local inquiry to be held if he sees fit to do so, thereafter make the order and cause the same to be forthwith published in the Edinburgh Gazette and in a newspaper circulating in the education area.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 20, after the first ("and") insert ("of").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, after line 20 insert as a new subsection:
"(2) The Secretary of State for Scotland shall also by order determine the number of members
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to be elected to each education authority, and shall apportion them among the electoral divisions of the education area. In making such determination and apportionment the Secretary for Scotland shall have regard to the population, area, and other circumstances, of the scheduled burgh or county, as the case may be, and the electoral divisions thereof."—(The Lord Chancellor.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: Will the noble and learned Lord say what is the exact object of this change? So far as I can see, the words now put into the second are the same as those in Clause 3. What is the precise object of making the change in this stage of the Bill?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: the object is this. My noble friend will see that as the clause stands at present, the second subsection begins "Before making an order under this and the following section, the Secretary for Scotland shall cause the proposed order to be published in such manner as to make the same known. …" My noble friend will see that the words proposed to be inserted are the same, really, as the words of the present third subsection. So you get the third section made the second subsection of Sect on 2, and then come the words "cause the ame to be forthwith published." That makes the order apply to both.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: Pure drafting?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: No change on the merits?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: No.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 21, leave out ("and the following").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3 agreed to.
Clause 4:
School management committees.
4.—(1) It shall be the duty of every education authority to prepare and submit to the Department for their approval a scheme or schemes for the constitution of committees (in this Act called "school management committees") for the management of schools or groups of schools under their control throughout their education area.
Every such scheme shall contain provision—

(a) for the due representation on each school management committee of the education authority and of the parents of the children attending the schools under the management of such committee; and

(b) for the appointment thereto, on the nomination of the teachers engaged in the schools under the management of such committee, or, failing such nomination, directly of at least one such teacher; and also

(c) in the case of a school management committee having under its management one or more transferred schools, for the appointment there to of at least one member in whose selection regard shall be had to the religious belief of the parents of the children attending such school or schools.

Further, in the case of a county, every such scheme shall have regard to the desirability of constituting separate school management committees for individual burghs and parishes, and shall provide for the appointment thereto, on the nomination of local bodies (including town and parish councils and at the first constitution outgoing school boards) or failing such nomination directly, of persons resident in the locality and otherwise qualified to represent local interests in school management.
(2) A school management committee shall, subject except as hereinafter provided to any regulations and restrictions made by the education authority, have all the powers and duties of that authority in regard to the general management and supervision of the school or group of schools, including attendance thereat:
Provided that a school management committee having under its management a secondary school shall have all the said powers and duties not subject to any such regulations or restrictions:
Provided further that the education authority shall in every case themselves retain, exercise, and perform all their powers and duties in regard to—

(a) the raising of money by rate or loan and the general control of expenditure;

(b) the acquisition or holding of land;

(c) the appointment, transfer, remuneration and dismissal of teachers;

(d) the appointment of bursars, and the exercise of the powers conferred by the section of this Act relating to power to facilitate attendance at secondary schools and other institutions; and

(e) the recognition, establishment, or discontinuance of intermediate or secondary schools or of centres of advanced technical instruction.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH had given notice to move, in subsection (2), after the words "school management committee," to insert "in case of a county." The noble Lord said: I think that I am right—perhaps the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, will tell us whether it is so—in saying that this Amendment will not be necessary if the Lord Chancellor adheres to his Amend-
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ment on the following page. If that is so I will, of course, take his Amendment and not move my own.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: That is so.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to amend the first proviso in subsection (2), after "provided that," by inserting the words "in the case of a county."
VISCOUNT HALDANE: Will the noble and learned Lord explain why this should be limited in the case of a county?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: It is for this reason. An Amendment was proposed in Committee in the House of Commons to give greater powers to the school management committees in burghs of over 20,000 inhabitants, and after a good deal of discussion it was realised that there were objections to attaching a population limit to a proviso of this kind, and the present form of the proviso, which my noble and learned friend will see is in the Bill, was accepted on Report as a satisfactory fulfilment of the undertaking. Then the intention was that the provision in its amended form should apply only to the case of burghs in counties. My noble friend is aware that the scheme of the Bill is that the five large burghs—Aberdeen, Dundee, Glasgow, Edinburgh, and Leith—form areas for the purpose of the Bill. Scattered throughout the counties which are the areas for the rest of Scotland there are, of course, a number of smaller burghs, and the intention was that the proviso should apply only to the case of burghs in counties. These words make it perfectly clear that that is done.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 5, after ("that") insert ("in the case of a county").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 5:
Power to facilitate attendance at secondary school and other institutions.
5.—(1) It shall be lawful for an education authority, with a view to securing that no child or young person resident in their education area who is qualified for attendance at an intermediate or secondary school, and in their opinion formed after consideration of a report from the teachers

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concerned shows promise of profiting thereby, shall be debarred therefrom by reason of the expense involved, to grant assistance in the case of any such child or young person by payment of travelling expenses, or of fees, or of the cost of residence in a hostel, or of a bursary or maintenance allowance, or any combination of these forms of assistance or otherwise, as the authority think fit. And it shall also be lawful for an education authority similarly to assist any duly qualified person resident in their education area to enter or attend a university, or a training college, or a central institution (including classes affiliated thereto), or in special cases any other educational institution approved for the purpose by the Department.
(2) It shall further be lawful for an education authority to grant assistance by payment of travelling expenses necessarily incurred in the case of any person resident in their education area in attending continuation classes under a a scheme for instruction in such classes as in this Act provided.
(3) Any assistance granted under this section shall be such as the education authority consider proper and necessary, having regard to the circumstances of each case, including the circumstances of the parents.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH moved, after "hostel" in subsection (1), to insert "which the education authorities are hereby empowered to establish and maintain." The noble Lord said: I have some difficulty about this Amendment. The time since the Second Reading has been very short, and I have had a large number of communications from school boards in regard to this particular matter, and at the instance of the School Board of Perth I have put down this Amendment. It may not be necessary to move it if the point which it deals with is already met. As far as I gather, I think that Clause 20 of the Act of 1908 gives this power, but the school boards with whom I have been in communication assure me that they have had great difficulty, and they do not know that they have the power. Therefore I will confine myself for the moment to asking the noble and learned Lord in charge of the Bill whether it is the fact that without this Amendment the new education authorities will have ample power to establish these hostels.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 32, after ("hostel") insert ("which the education authorities are hereby empowered to establish and maintain").—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This matter has been looked into, and I am informed that it is quite clear that there is a power without the insertion of these words.
VISCOUNT BRYCE: Apropos of the answer that has just been given by the Lord Chancellor, I wish to ask a question which arises on this clause. I think that it is sufficiently near to the point which is now under discussion. In some countries, notably in Australia, where the population is very scanty and scattered, it has been found very desirable for education authorities to make arrangements for the conjoint travelling of children from various remote places to a central school. Can the Lord Chancellor say whether, under the provisions of Clause 5, it will be possible for the education authorities not only to pay the expense of particular children, but to provide means for the conveyance of children from remote areas, as for instance from some village or clachan high up in the glen down to the school in the lower part of the glen. If such a conveyance were provided it would take the children down in the mornings and back again in the evenings. Would that be within the power which is granted by the provisions of this clause?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The suggestion which has just been made seems eminently reasonable. I doubt whether the clause as it stands covers the point because it refers to the payment of expenses. But the question raised by my noble friend will certainly be considered. I cannot say more at present than that before the next stage of the Bill we will think over what he has said.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 5 agreed to.
Clauses 6 and 7 agreed to.
Clause 8:
Religious instruction.
8. Whereas it has been the custom in the public schools of Scotland to give instruction in religion to children whose parents did not object to the instruction so given, but with liberty to parents, without forfeiting any of the other advantages of the schools, to elect that their children should not receive such instruction, be it enacted that education authorities shall be at liberty to continue the said custom, subject to the provisions of section sixty-eight (conscience clause) of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1872.
LORD GISBOROUGH LORD GISBOROUGH moved to delete the words "be at liberty to." The noble Lord said: In moving the Amendment which stands in my name, I do so with the object of making the teaching of religion

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in the board schools compulsory. As your Lordships are aware, there are two kinds of school in Scotland—the voluntary schools which belong, I believe, almost entirely to the Episcopalians and the Roman Catholic Churches, and the board schools which hitherto have been confined to a small area of a parish. Under this Bill the voluntary schools are to be granted a maximum of advantage with regard to religious instruction which is to be compulsory. The Bill says that religion shall be taught in those schools exactly as has been the custom in the past. They are also to have the advantage of being able to apply whatever test they think necessary to the teachers as to their religious views and characters before they are allowed to teach in the schools. I do not think that anybody will complain of those advantages being granted to the Episcopalians and Roman Catholic Churches.
When you come to the other side—to the board schools—you find an entirely different state of things. Not only in their case is the teaching of religion not to be compulsory, but even the position which they occupy today is to be taken away from them. Under the present system, the school board area being a parish and therefore a very small one, it is easy for the ministers of the various Free Churches to take an interest in the election and to secure the return of sufficient representatives on the board to make certain of their religious instruction, but under the Bill that area is to be enlarged to the county area, with the result that in all probability, in many counties where those who do not believe in religion are I think increasing in numbers, it will be quite impossible to secure the return of a sufficient number of board school representatives to ensure religion being taught at all. I think that for one reason alone this Amendment would be advisable, and that is that you are going to continue in the future the discussion of the religious question all over the county every time that a school board election takes place. If you grant to the Episcopalian and the Roman Catholic Churches the maximum advantage which they get under the Bill, I think it is rather hard to deny to the Free Churches the minimum of advantage for which they ask. All they ask is that the words "be at liberty to" shall be omitted, so that the clause shall read "shall continue the said custom." I hope that the Government will
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accept this Amendment because it will avoid all fighting over the religious question at future elections, and it will grant to a very deserving body of men, who represent I think something like four-fifths of the population of Scotland, the minimum advantage which they ask. Moreover, it will be a very great boon to them, believing as they do that the question of religious instruction is the most important one that can be dealt with. I trust, for the reasons I have given, that the Government will accept the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, lines 28 and 29, leave out ("be at liberty to").—(Lord Gisborough.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I hope that the noble Lord, on consideration, will not press this Amendment, and I can assure him, in saying this, that there is no lack of sympathy on my part with the object he has in view. I think that the means proposed to be adopted by the Amendment would rather prejudice than advance the cause of religious education in these Scottish schools. The noble Lord will remember that in the previous Scottish Education Act—the Act of 1872—there was not any enacting clause whatever as to religious teaching. The Act begins with the preamble, reciting the use and wont as to religious education in Scotland, but then you turn over the pages of the Act in vain if you have any hope of finding a corresponding enactment. The course adopted was to leave it to the authorities, who have exercised the power according to use and wont, in the manner which is universally desired by the people of Scotland, and I think we had better leave it there, as it stands in the Act at present, without, attempting to make it compulsory. I think it was pointed out by one or two fellow-countrymen of my own in this House, who know the Scottish people well, that they are very apt to kick if a thing is forced upon them, and I am afraid that if you make it compulsory in the terms proposed by the noble Lord you might effect exactly the opposite of that which he intends. The form of words in the Bill has been adopted after consultation between the different Presbyterian bodies in Scotland; it has been accepted by the education committees of the leading Presbyterian teachers in Scotland, and it was supported in the House of Commons by Members who might claim to be very

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representative of the feelings of these bodies upon this matter. On the whole I must say that the Government are not prepared to re-open this question, and I earnestly hope that the noble Lord will not press the Amendment to a division.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I entirely agree with what the noble and learned Lord has said. I should, perhaps prefer to remain silent, but I think it would be hardly fair to the House and myself and to those with whom I generally act if I did not say that, speaking generally, for the reasons which the noble and learned Lord has given, I cordially support the view which he takes, and I hope that the Committee will not re-open this question. You are making certain creeds the mandatory creeds of a minority. If it came to a mere matter of logic it is not easy to see why on that ground the creed of the majority should be left out. But the fact remains that this Bill is making no change in the custom and law as it now stands, and as it has stood since the year 1872. The Act of that year, as was mentioned by the noble and learned Viscount behind me (Lord Haldane) did not make the teaching of religion compulsory, but it made it legal, and I think that what the noble and learned Lord has said is right—that if the people of Scotland have the power to get a thing and want it, they will see that it is given in the proper form. Although religious instruction is not a Code subject it is, as a matter of fact, universal or practically so in all public schools. So I believe it will remain. None of us want to imperil the position of the Bill by again raising this question. Therefore, although there is a good deal to be said for the Amendment, considered as a question of logic, as a matter of practical politics I think it would be extremely inexpedient to do anything to disturb the arrangement which was made at a late stage in another place.
VISCOUNT BRYCE: I venture to express my agreement with what has been said by the Lord Chancellor and by my noble friend who has just spoken on this subject. The question has excited a great deal of interest and some controversy in Scotland. I think there was some basis for the view which has been expressed by the noble Lord (Lord Gisborough). It would appear on the face of the Bill as if the denominational schools were given an advantage
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which does not belong to the undenominational schools, the pupils in which represent the very large majority of the people of Scotland. But, as has been already said, a compromise has been arrived at, and it is always dangerous to disturb a compromise, unless you are certain that you will arrive at greater peace than existed before. I am afraid that, if we were to make this change, we would start a new controversy, that there would be great trouble, and that an end might be put to the comparative peace which has existed in Scottish schools on this subject, and which has made the religious question so much smaller a matter in Scotland than it has, unfortunately, been in England.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: From another point of view, I entirely agree with what the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack has said. I was in Scotland through the period of controversy over this Amendment. I have a good deal of interest in Scottish education, and come in contact with a great number of the teachers. I was very much impressed with this, that we have been delivered, by the settlement which the Government have made from a controversy of the most serious character. The peace and tranquillity of Scottish education had been disturbed by the proposal of this Amendment. Nobody who really knew the arrangement there thought in the least that there would be any advantage to the teaching of religion in Scotland. There would no doubt be a new and mechanical element introduced—a teaching of religion that was mechanical—and the most striking feature that I observed was the intense repugnance to the Amendment shown by the whole body of Scottish teachers—a very important body. They saw—and they were right in thinking—that this was, in effect, an indirect way of imposing a test upon them, and it was bitterly resented, and we were on the verge of a great controversy which the fortunate arrangement made by the Secretary for Scotland enabled us to get out of. I trust that the noble Lord will not press his Amendment, which would simply bring us into a condition of things which I shudder to contemplate.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Claus 8 agreed to.
Clauses 9 to 13 agreed to.
Clause 14
Expenses of education authorities.
14.—(1) The expenses of an education authority (including the expenditure incurred by school management committees in the performance of their duties and approved by the authority) shall be paid out of the education fund of the education area, which shall come in place of the school fund referred to in section forty-three of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1872, and of the district education fund referred to in section seventeen of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after the word "committees" where it first occurred in subsection (1), to insert "and local advisory councils." The noble and learned Lord said: It is obviously desirable that the expenses of these councils should be paid.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 20, after ("committees") insert ("and local advisory councils").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 15 agreed to.
Clause 16:
Continuation classes.
16. Sections nine and ten of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908, are hereby repealed and in lieu there of—
(1) Every education authority shall, after due inquiry and consultation with persons concerned in local crafts and industries and with due regard to local circumstances generally, prepare and submit for the approval of the Department a scheme or schemes for the part-time instruction in continuation classes of all young persons within the education area of the authority who may under this Act be required to attend such classes.
(2)—

(a) Every education authority shall prepare and submit for the approval of the Department under this section—

(i) within one year after the appointed day a scheme applicable to young persons under the age of sixteen years; and

(ii) as soon thereafter as the Department may require a scheme or schemes applicable to young persons of any age greater than sixteen but not exceeding eighteen years.

(b) When a young person to whom any such scheme applies attains the age of sixteen years or any greater age as the case may be during any continuation class session, he shall for the purposes of this section be deemed not to have attained such age until the close of such session, so, however, that a young person shall not by reason of this provision be required to attend continuation classes for more than three months after he has attained such age:

(3) For the better preparation and carrying into effect of schemes under this section, and in particular for the registration and classification of young persons within their areas, it shall be the duty of education authorities to communicate and co-operate with associations or committees of employers and workmen concerned in the registration or supervision of apprentices in trades where apprentices are employed, or with similar associations or committees in trades or businesses where young persons, though not apprenticed thereto, have the prospect of regular employment therein in later years, and to encourage the formation of such associations or committees, and to register and classify young persons within their areas according to their employment in such trades or businesses or in occupations which do not afford the prospect of such regular employment, and to have regard to the educational requirements of such young persons with respect alike to their present and to their prospective employments:
(4) Every such scheme shall provide for—

(a) instruction in the English language and literature, and in such other parts of a general education as may be deemed desirable;

(b) special instruction conducive to the efficiency of young persons in the employment in which they are engaged or propose to be engaged; and

(c) instruction in physical exercises adapted to age and physique: Provided that for this purpose account may be taken of instruction in such exercises afforded at holiday camps or in connection with boys' brigades or kindred organisations if the instruction so afforded is approved by the education authority as satisfactory:

(5) The instruction given in continuation classes under any such scheme shall amount for each young person to an aggregate of at least three hundred and twenty hours of attendance in each year distributed as regards times and seasons as may best suit the circumstances of each locality:
Provided that no attendance at classes held between the hours of seven in the evening and eight in the morning shall be reckoned as part of the necessary aggregate of three hundred and twenty hours of attendance, except in circumstances and to the extent specially approved by the Department:
(6) The obligation to attend continuation classes under any such scheme shall not apply to any young person who—

(i) is above the age of fourteen years on the appointed day; or

(ii)—(a) is in full-time attendance at a recognised primary intermediate or secondary school; or

(b) is shown to the satisfaction of the education authority to be receiving suitable and efficient instruction in some other manner; or

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(iii)—(a) has been in full-time attendance at a recognised intermediate or secondary school until the close of the school session in which he has attained the age of seventeen years and is certified by the school authorities to have completed the post-intermediate course; or
(b) has attained the age of seventeen years and is shown to the satisfaction of the education authority to have completed a course of instruction equivalent in value to the post-intermediate course:
The obligation to attend continuation classes under any such scheme shall not, within a period of three years from the appointed day on which the provisions of this section come into force, apply to young persons between the ages of sixteen and eighteen, nor after such period to any young person who has attained the age of sixteen before the expiration of that period:
(7) Whenever a scheme has been approved by the Department, the education authority shall, in such manner as the Department may by order prescribe, require every young person to whom the obligation to attend continuation classes under such scheme applies to attend with due regularity for instruction in accordance with the scheme at such times and places as the education authority may appoint:
Provided that an education authority may, upon such conditions as they think fit, exempt any young person from the obligation to attend continuation classes where, after due inquiry, the authority are satisfied that the circumstances justify such exemption, and the provisions of section three of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1901, relating to the keeping of register and to the power of the Department, shall, with the necessary modifications, apply to exemptions granted under this provision.
(8) If it appears to an education authority that any young person of the age of fifteen years and upwards is neglecting or failing without reasonable excuse to comply with any such requirement of the authority, it shall be lawful for that authority after due warning to such young person and to his parent and employer (if any) to summon the young person, with or without his parent or employer, to appear before the authority at any meeting thereof, and to require from him or them every information and explanation respecting such neglect or failure; and if such young person or his parent or employer, or some person on his or their behalf, either does not appear, or appears and does not satisfy the authority that there is reasonable excuse for such neglect or failure, it shall be lawful for the authority to order in writing that such young person shall comply with such requirement, or with such other requirement as to attendance as the authority may direct. The authority shall cause a copy of any such order to be sent to the young person by registered letter, and if the young person fails to comply with the order he shall be liable, on summary conviction, to a penalty not exceeding five shillings.
(9) Every employer of labour shall afford to every young person in his employment any opportunity necessary for attendance at continuation classes in accordance with the requirements of the education authority, including time for travelling, and the hours of employment of any young person when added to the time necessary for such attendance, including time for travelling, shall not in the aggregate exceed in any day or week, as the case may be, the period of employment permitted for such young person by any Act of Parliament.
Every employer who tai s to afford the opportunity aforesaid, or who employs a young person contrary to the provisions of this subsection, shall be liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding twenty shillings, or in case of a second or subsequent offence whether relating to the same or to another young person not exceeding five pounds, and every parent of a young person who has conduced to the commission of such an offence by an employer, or to the failure of such young person to observe any requirement of the education authority under this section, shall be liable on summary conviction to the like penalties:
(10) An education authority may, in any scheme under this section, make provision for the attendance at continuation classes of persons of any age who desire to attend such classes although not required by the authority so to do.
(11) An education authority may in any scheme under this section, or by a separate scheme or schemes similarly submitted and approved, provide for the delegation by the authority, subject to any regulations and restrictions made by them, of any of their powers and duties relating to the management and supervision of continuation classes (including attendance thereat) within their education area or any part thereof to any school management committee or combination of such committees within their area, or to a committee or committees appointed by the authority for the purpose, consisting in whole or in part of members of the authority, and any such school management committee or other committee may exercise and shall perform all the powers and duties so delegated to them:
Provided that an education authority shall not so delegate any of the powers and duties which, by the section of this Act relating to school management committees, the authority are required themselves to retain, exercise, and perform:
(12) Where continuation classes provided by the education authority in any education area are attended by persons resident outwith that area, there shall be paid in each year to that authority out of the education fund of the education area in which any such persons are so resident a sum equal to the cost of the instruction of such persons in those classes (including in such cost repayment of, and interest on, loans for capital expenditure) after deduction of income from all sources of income other than educations rate:
Provided that no payment shall be made under this subsection out of the education fund of any education area in respect of any person for whom it is shown, to the satisfaction of the Department, that suitable instruction is available in accessible continuation classes within that area, regard being had to all the circumstances:
(13) The provisions of section four of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908, which relates to the medical inspection of children, shall apply, with the necessary modifications, to the medical examination and supervision of young persons under the obligation to attend continuation classes under this section.
(14) if a young person or the parent of a young person under the age of sixteen represents in writing to the local education authority that he objects to any part of the instruction given in the continuation school which the young person is required to attend, on the ground that it is contrary or offensive to his religious belief, the obligation under this Act to attend that school for the purpose of such instruction shall not apply to him, and the local education authority shall, if practicable, arrange for him to attend some other instruction in lieu thereof or some other school:
(15) In this section the expression "young person" includes any person between the ages of fifteen and eighteen years and also any child under the age of fifteen years who has been exempted under the Education (Scotland) Act, 1901, from the obligation to attend school; the expression, "employ" and "employment" include employment in any labour exercised by way of trade or for purposes of gain whether the gain be to the young person or to any other person: and the expression "employer" includes a parent so employing his children.
LORD INCHCAPE: My noble friend Lord Beresford has asked me to say that he is very sorry he could not attend the House to-day on account of illness; otherwise he would have supported my Amendment In subsection (6) of Clause 16. I understand that His Majesty's Government are prepared to accept the Amendment, which would have been moved in the House of Commons but for some mistake.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 21, after ("course") insert ("or"
(c) who has satisfactorily completed a course of training for, and is engaged in, the sea service, in accordance with the provisions of any national scheme which may hereafter be established, by Order in Council or otherwise, with the object of maintaining an adequate supply of well-trained British seamen, or, pending the establishment of such scheme, in accordance with the pro-
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visions of any interim scheme approved by the Department.")—(Lord Inchcape.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I believe it is true that it was by accident that this clause was not moved in the Commons. The Government have considered the matter, and are prepared to accept the Amendment.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: Is there not a general clause enabling exemption to be given in cases where it is required? After all, this is rather a serious matter. There is a disposition to think that young persons are very valuable economic material, and so they are; but the first consideration is to get them educated, and we have to think of the whole future of the country. Here is an exception proposed to be made, and I think we ought to hear from the Government whether there is not in the Bill a clause which would enable the authority to make such exemptions as would cover the only cases of absolute necessity.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: There are words giving power of exemption; but this Amendment relates to a matter so important, and to one which would so often arise, that the Government have thought it desirable to recognise this exemption as a matter of law. It would require a great many individual applications, and the view the Government have adopted in accepting the Amendment is that they treat it as a matter of principle, and that where the conditions mentioned here are present the attendance ought not to be insisted upon.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: If the Government are satified with that, on the advice of the educational experts, well and good. But I think it is a serious matter to make these exceptions; and I understand that the School Board of Glasgow, at all events, have represented very strongly against the Amendment. But the responsibility must be with the Government.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think my noble and learned friend will find that the clause is in the English Bill, but owing to an accident it was not put into this Bill.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH moved, in subsection (6) to omit "three" ["The obligation to attend continuation classes under any such scheme shall not, within a period of three years"], and to substitute "seven"; and he also had on the Paper the addition of a new paragraph to subsection (6). The noble lord said: The Amendment which I now rise to move is perhaps the most important of those of which notice has been given. I shall endeavour not to occupy the Committee longer than is absolutely necessary, but I hope it will be understood that those for whom I speak attach the greatest importance to this Amendment.
There are two Amendments to the clause. They are not absolutely necessary the one to the other, but they run very much into one another, and the argument for the one is very much the same as for the other. The first is to give a longer period of transition—seven years instead of three; and to give at the end of the subsection a certain amount of freedom to local authorities to suit the requirements of their own particular districts. The difference between the "three" and the "seven" is material. I know it will be said that the three years was a compromise, but the machinery of this Bill is such that it will take nearly three years before anything can be done under it with regard to the continuation classes. I do not think that this will be contradicted. And under this same clause it takes a year before the scheme can be started, and some months later than that before it can be brought into operation; so that it will be a good deal over two years before anything can be done under this clause. There are many reasons why this great change should be made gradually, and why people should be given time to make preparations to accustom themselves to it.
The proposal is that lads and young women between sixteen and eighteen shall spend 320 hours in every year at these continuation classes. That will be, for the number of weeks in which these continuation classes can be held, something like two hours a day, and I propose to speak for two great industries in my own district, which I thoroughly know. The first is the mining industry. Mining conditions are peculiar. I do not know that the hours at which the men start work are earlier in our district than in any other, but the people do start early, and they are home early in the after-
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noon, between 3 and 4 o'clock. Surely there should be some assurance that the attendance at these classes would be arranged so that the attendance can be after those hours and not during the working day of those chiefly concerned. The point of importance is stated to me in this language by a personal friend. He says—
"These lads are all employed on work which cannot be done by full grown men, and as it would mean that they would have to leave their work, often at a distance of some miles from home, thus disarranging the whole working of the colliery, the cost will thereby be increased over 1s. a ton, and as our business in the East of Scotland, particularly in ordinary times, is largely shipping business, competing with the North of England, it would simply mean that during the four years we are compelled to release these lads from work we shall not be in a position to compete with the collieries in the North of England for the supply of shipping business."
Under the English Act, as your Lordships know, the period is seven years and not three, and that is the reason for that particular argument.
I am quite sure that those for whom I speak do not want to put any handicap on education, but the practical difficulties in bringing the new custom into operation will be very great. It is no good to answer that the arrangement contemplated would not be quickly carried into practical effect, and that the industries would have time to accomodate themselves. They would not be able to do that owing to the confusion caused by the war, and in fact if you carry the Bill in the form in which it now stands it would place this important industry in the East of Scotland at a serious disadvantage as compared with its English competitors. I know quite well that the representatives of the large cities, where these continuation classes can be held close to the homes of those concerned, are not interested in this Amendment and are probably in opposition to it, but the plea which I make for the Amendment at the end of the clause, giving a certain latitude, is shortly this—that the education authority, being elected not by the masters but by the parents of the children concerned, can be trusted to judge what is best for their own particular district.
Let me turn for a moment to the question of agriculture. The whole of the agricultural community in Scotland are deeply concerned about this point. As you know, the clause requires the compulsory attendance of lads up to eighteen years of age for 320 hours in the year. Those for whom I

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speak are fully satisfied that this provision cannot be carried into effect without great prejudice to the agricultural industry, having regard to the fact that the agricultural population is a scattered one and that the lads would be required in most cases to travel long distances to and from the classes. In these days lads have charge of horses soon after they are sixteen, and long before they are eighteen, and between those years they often take an active part in the work of ploughing. If they are to lose half the day in attending these classes—I say half a day because they will have to prepare themselves for work and go and come long distances—the whole work of the farm will be thrown out of gear, and the pair of horses to which the young man has to attend will be thrown idle.
I have no doubt whatever that so far as they possibly can the education authority will endeavour to fix a time for the classes which will be as far as possible convenient for the farmer, but if you are going to take 320 hours in the year it will be absolutely impossible to fix the hours in such a way as not to prejudice the great interest of agriculture. You would have to take two hours a day for more than seven months, if you exclude Saturdays and Sundays, as of course you must, and in the country it is impossible to get lads to and from the places where these continuation classes would have to be held without serious interference with their work. They would have, as I have said, to stop work very soon after the middle of the day in order to put up the horses, clean themselves, have their food, and travel to the school, and I am sure I am speaking the very general opinion of the agricultural community when I say it is absolutely impossible to manage the work on the lines on which it is at present managed if the clause is carried into effect as it now stands.
I make a special plea for the reconsideration of this particular point on this ground. This clause was put into the Bill in Grand Committee in another place. An Amendment was put down for the purpose of raising this question in the House itself, but by an accident that Amendment was never moved. Immediately before it there was an important Amendment dealing with rating matters, which it was expected would take up time. That Amendment was unexpectedly ruled out of order, and therefore those concerned were unable to take the opinion of the House upon this
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question. I say frankly that I would not wish to imperil the Bill on account of this question, but I do think that it is at least important, having regard to the enormous interests involved, that the representatives of the people themselves should have an opportunity of deciding this question. It has never been discussed or decided in another place on its merits, and I sincerely hope that the Government will allow us to have the chance of taking the opinion of the representatives of the people upon a point on which, owing to the way in which the measure has been hurried through, there has been no real opportunity of taking the opinion of the country.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 23, leave out ("three") and insert ("seven").—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I hope that the Committee will not adopt this Amendment. I am obliged to my noble friend for the very friendly spirit in which he has dealt with the proposal which he submits to the Committee. There are two branches of the proposal, and the connection between them is not very direct, but I quite agree that it was convenient to take them at the same time. The two proposals are firstly that for "three" should be substituted "seven" in defining the term when the provisions of the Act are to come into force, and the second is as to making the number of hours for which attendance is to be required considerably less than the number now fixed in the Bill. With regard to the first of those proposals, I believe that it will be found that it would be strongly opposed by a great many people in Scotland—
VISCOUNT HALDANE: Hear, hear.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR—and particularly the representatives of the scheduled burghs. In Committee in the other House the point was discussed, and I am informed that the proposal to insert seven years was rejected without a division.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: Not in the House.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: No, in Grand Committee. "Three years" was inserted after a division in which twenty-one Members voted for the moratorium of three years, while four Members were

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opposed to any delay at all. It is perfectly true that in the English Act it is seven years, but the fact is that Scotland is much more ready to meet this form of continuing education than England was at the time the English Act was passed. In Scotland, since 1908, continuation classes in a modified form have been in use, and I am informed that the larger burghs particularly have made arrangements for the provision of classes such as the Bill requires at an early date, and that they are confident they will be in a position to start the scheme of the Bill well within the limit of three years. In England the moratorium of seven years was, I am told, largely due to the necessity of providing buildings for the purpose, and of finding the necessary staff of teachers; but Scotland is more forward in its preparations, and after consideration by those who have an intimate knowledge of the educational requirements of Scotland, it is considered that three years will meet the wishes of the people of Scotland, and, what is even more important still, will be a date at which Scotland can be ready to bring the scheme into operation. For these reasons I hope the Committee will not accept the proposal of my noble friend to postpone the commencement of the operation of the provision of the Bill for seven years.
I propose now to say a few words as to the second branch of the noble Lord's proposal, and it is with regard to the number of hours for which a young person may be required to attend continuation schools in any year. He wishes to make the number 280, instead of 320. I understand that 320 hours is regarded as the minimum by a great many educational authorities in Scotland. They would not be satisfied with less, and if that is their feeling I do not know that the power to reduce the number is one which will be largely taken advantage of.
But the truth is that the Bill contains a provision not in the English Act at all. It is in subsection (7) of Clause 16. I had better read it, because I think it obviates the inconvenience that my noble friend apprehended might arise. This subsection says—
"Provided that an education authority may, upon such conditions as they think fit, exempt any young person from the obligation to attend continuation classes where, after due inquiry, the authority are satisfied that the circumstances justify such exemption."
That power may be used so as to avoid
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inconvenience, the possibility of which has been referred to by my noble friend. Moreover, I think it is a matter which will deserve consideration on any such proposal, that you might have different views taken by different education authorities. I do not know that very many authorities in Scotland will avail themselves of the power. That must be a matter of speculation, though I am told the general feeling is against it. Suppose you have the power exercised, it would be a very inconvenient thing to have in two adjoining district two different scales of attendance at these continuation classes. It would affect the labour in the two districts, and you would have a state of things which might produce a rather unhealthy competition. You do not want to have a less number of hours in one district than you have in an adjoining district. There ought to be uniformity as far as possible.
For these reasons, I submit to the Committee that it would have an unfortunate effect if the possibility of such divergence in districts closely associated with one another were allowed to prevail, and I hope the Committee will not adopt this Amendment. I was very glad to hear what the noble Lord said as to his desire not in any way to imperil the progress of the Bill, which he, like myself, regards as highly beneficial to Scotland, and I hope the discussion which has taken place may be regarded as a sufficient mode of dealing with the subject, and that my noble friend may see his way not to press the Amendment further.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: On the Amendment of my noble friend Lord Inchcape, the Government let in the thin end of the wedge. Then comes my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh, who, with a hammer blow, proposes to drive in the thick end. I am grateful to the Government on public grounds for having resisted this proposal. I am afraid that my noble friend, who really takes a great and genuine interest in education, and who has been its good friend in the past, has not quite realised what he is doing in his kindly desire to help various employers of labour.
Here is a provision proposed to be accorded for the first time to young persons in Scotland for continuing their education, and my noble friend by his Amendment proposes to diminish that provision. In whose interest? Not in the interest of

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the young persons concerned, but in the interest of some farmers and coal owners who find it inconvenient. Inconvenient to do what? To allow these boys and girls to get 320 hours a year, or to get this much before seven years have elapsed. As the Lord Chancellor pointed out, the Amendment has two-fold branches. Under one branch the continuation education is to be cut down from 320 to 280 hours per year, and under the second branch this education is put off for seven years. That is indeed driving in the thick end of the wedge.
The Lord Chancellor pointed out truly that there is very little analogy between Scotland and England. It is quite true that Mr. Fisher introduced into his Bill the seven years' limitation so far as continuation schools were concerned. Yes, but, as the Lord Chancellor said, the Act of 1908 long ago introduced continuation schools into Scotland—not as good ones as we shall get under this Bill, but they are effective continuation schools, which there was power to make compulsory and which are really put into operation in some parts of Scotland. If my noble friend supposes that Scotland is to put off for seven years doing what it has been doing for some time and is doing now—because already some of the larger authorities are intending to anticipate even the three years' limit, and are making their preparations for putting new continuation schools into operation—I think he is mistaken.
Then, as regards that branch of the Amendment which cuts down the 320 hours in the year to 280, what does that mean? At the most the boy or girl is only to get in the continuation school a little over six hours per week, and it is proposed to knock an hour off that. Such a proposition, of course, is not put forward in the name of education. It is put forward by the colliery owners and farmers who want to get more and more of the labour of these boys and girls. I admit that it is a temptation to them to do so. They may say that it puts them to some considerable inconvenience to have to give up any part of the labour, and I dare say many of them think the whole proposal to give any continuation education at all by compulsion is very bad. Many of them, again, would like this education to be given after hours of work in the evening, when the boy or girl is tired out, and when it will not interfere with the labour during the day.
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We know all about that argument. It belongs to a past state of society, to a condition of things which we dare not allow to continue for the future. It is not your Tariff Reform arrangements or your commercial protection by artificial means which will deliver you from the contest to which you are going to be exposed throughout the world—a contest as severe as, and in some respects I think more perilous for us than, the contest on which we embarked in this war. The handicap that this country has is that of want of knowledge, a want of education among those who will form the coming generations, and it is only by providing that knowledge, which is your one protection in the race for supremacy in the future, that you will attain your object.
The matter is very, very serious, and just when we are taking the first step, and when Scotland is agreed in taking it without the smallest dissent, to make things better and to lay the foundations of what will at least give us the chance to make an advance, an Amendment is proposed, of which, I am sure, my noble friend has not quite realised the effect upon the continuation system, even as it exists in Scotland. I trust he will not persist in it.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: I hope that my noble friend will persist in his Amendment. I disagree with what the noble and learned Viscount has just said—that my noble friend was not speaking in the interest of the persons concerned. I think he is most distinctly speaking in their interest. In the old days before we had compulsory education it is perfectly well known that Scotsmen were far better educated than Englishmen. They are now, but the difference was much greater in those days than it has been since there has been compulsory education. There were in those days, as I think any of your Lordships who live in Scotland will know, a large number of men who were extraordinarily highly educated, and throughout the whole world Scotsmen were able to hold their own with the men of any other country in the way of education and enterprise.
It is not merely education and book-learning which people require. They have also to know their work. It is not by any means always those who are best learned in books and who have devoted themselves

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to books who are most successful in life, commercially or in other respects. I am in favour of continuation classes, but there are a large number of boys and probably girls who are much interested in them who do not wish to go on, or whose parents do not wish them to go on. I think it is universal in Scotland, so far as my experience goes of rural districts, that if children have any inclination for education their parents do everything they can to give them the opportunities, even at the cost of great sacrifices themselves. They will obtain this, even if the seven years provision is put in. All those who are willing be able to go on, and it only means that some of those who do not see the necessity or advisability of doing so will have the option.
As regards the number of days, I am not quite certain on that point, but I feel pretty sure, myself, that although it is said that the feeling in Scotland is in favour of the clause as it is, it is simply because it is not known throughout Scotland. I feel very sure that if the Bill passes in its present form it will not be well received in Scotland, and it may have a contrary effect, because of all people in this world the Scottish are the very worst to try and force. And I think without it you will get certainly as good results if my noble friend's Amendment is passed by the Committee, and I believe that in reality it will prove more successful than this forcing under the Bill, which I think will be greatly resented by a very large number of people throughout Scotland. I hope my noble friend will insist on the Amendment.
VISCOUNT BRYCE: I should like to express, as one who knows something about Scotland, my belief that this Amendment would not give satisfaction to people in Scotland as a whole. There is nothing which has been more characteristic of Scotland in the past than its desire to be always abreast of the movement for extending education in every possible way, and giving the best possible chance to people, before they enter upon the serious work of life, of having prepared themselves in every way to take advantage of their natural talents. My noble friend who has moved this Amendment knows that Scotland has for two centuries been in the vanguard of education, and nothing has done so much to enable these people to make their country prosperous and one
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of the first peoples in Europe, as the devotion of the people to education. The Government, in this Bill, seem to have recognised this, and to have recognised also that the greatest possible facility should be given to boys of capacity to make the maximum use of the continuation schools before they enter the serious business of life. What is the answer which my noble friend gave to that? That a certain number of coalowners and agriculturists will be embarrassed in their business. I think it is very likely they will. But is not the gain to the people of Scotland and to Scotland itself of very much greater importance than this small sacrifice which they are asked to make?
With regard to what was said by the noble Duke, I agree with him. Practical education is valuable, and it is not merely book-learning, but training in the actual work of an industry which enables a boy to succeed. But this Amendment is not proposed in the interests of giving the boy a large amount of practical knowledge in the work; it is a proposal to take away from the general education and the technical education he will receive, to put him into the practical work too soon, by which he will not gain in the long run. I venture therefore, to express the belief that the general opinion of Scotland would not welcome this Amendment, and I hope that my noble friend will not persevere with it.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I confess I am wholly unconverted by the arguments which the noble Lord has used, or by the arguments spoken from this side of the House. It is said that there has been a probable diversity in my Amendment with regard to adjoining counties. It is said that the Bill will show some diversity, that there is no guarantee that they will take the same view provided an education authority may appoint such conditions as they think fit. There is no appeal; they may do what they like, and two adjoining authorities may take exactly opposite courses, and two adjoining people may be put under different conditions. Therefore that argument, at any rate, falls to the ground. The noble and learned Viscount behind me, and the noble Lord who spoke last, made the point that I was acting in the selfish interests of employers. That is not my belief at all. I believe that this Amendment is in the interests of the young people themselves,

1023
and for this reason. Especially in the case of agriculturists, I think there is great reason to fear that if a boy of seventeen cannot be employed for whole time on a farm, he will not be employed at all on the farm; that he will drift into the adjoining town centres sooner than otherwise he would do. I think it is entirely in the interests of the boys themselves that they should learn at an early age the work which they will have to do in their lives. Therefore I resent the idea that I am supposed to be speaking only in the interest of the employer, and not in the interest of the
Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, at the end of subsection (8), to leave out "sent to the young person by registered letter" and to insert "served by post on the young person to whom it relates." The noble and learned Lord said: The words "served by post" bring the clause into harmony with the Interpretation Act of 1869.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, lines 26 and 27, leave out ("sent to the young person by registered letter") and insert ("served by post on the young person to whom it relates").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD BALFOUR of BURLEIGH: I should like to ask a question on this subsection. Towards the end of the subsection there is still power apparently to take young persons to a Police Court. What are the precautions against their being taken there unnecessarily? Everything I think in the early part of the clause is so designed that only those who
individual. To a certain extent that element does come in, because I used the argument—and I use it still—that an important industry in Scotland is being prejudiced, as compared with that industry in England, on account of the shorter time which is given in Scotland. I am afraid, in all the circumstances, that I must take the feeling of the House upon this important matter.
On Question, whether the word "three" shall stand part of the clause?—
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 36; Not-Contents, 6.

CONTENTS.

Finlay, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Bryce, V.

Gisborough, L.

Wigan, L. (E. Crawford.) (L. Privy Seal.)

Haldane, V.

Hylton, L. [Teller.]

Hutchinson, V. (E. Donoughmore.)

Inchcape, L.

Kenry, L. (E. Dunraven and Mount-Earl.)

Lansdowne, M.

Peel, V.

Beauchamp, E.

Pontypridd, L.

Eldon, E.

Ashbourne, L.

Rathcreedan, L.

Howe, E.

Buckmaster, L.

Rotherham, L.

Kimberley, E.

Burnham, L.

Southwark, L.

Mar and Kellie, E.

Carmichael, L.

Stanmore, L. [Teller.]

Stanhope, E.

Cawley, L.

Strachie, L.

Clinton, L.

Stuart of Wortley, L.

Farquhar, V. (L. Steward.)

Colebrooke, L.

Sumner, L.

Sandhurst, V. (L. Chamberlain.)

Elphinstone, L.

Terrington, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Doncaster, E. (D. Buccleuch and Queensberry.) [Teller.)

Avebury, L.

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

Balfour, L. [Teller.]

Kintore, L. (E. Kintore.)

Blythswood, L.

are actually summoned shall be taken to the Police Court, and some anxiety has been expressed to me that there is not sufficient check on the will and power of the education authority to enter on these prosecutions.
LORD CHANCELLOR: If my noble friend can suggest any additional precautions which he deems desirable, I need not say that they will be most attentively considered. The words to which he refers are these in subsection(8)—"The authority shall cause a copy of any such order to be served by post on the young person to whom it relates, and if the young person fails to comply with the order he shall be liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding 5s." That is the provision, and I submit to my noble friend's consideration that it does not err on the side that he fears.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CHANCELLOR LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (14), after "If a young person," to insert "over the age of sixteen." The

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noble and learned Lord said: The reason for the Amendment is this. The clause as it stands is identical in substance with the corresponding section of the English Act, but "young person" has not exactly the same signification in the two countries, because in Scotland the term includes persons under an obligation to attend continuation classes, who are under the age of fifteen, in consequence of their having, been exempted from full-time attendance at school. It seems desirable, where you have such a condition, that the young person who is to make objection should be defined as being over the age of sixteen. If it is a child who has been exempted from full-time attendance, and therefore becomes liable to go to continuation classes, it is natural that his parents should do it for him. That is the whole point of the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 19, after the first ("Person") insert ("over the age of sixteen").—(The Lord chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (14), to substitute "continuation classes" for "continuation school." The noble and learned Lord said: The word "school" is not apt to denote continuation classes. This is a verbal Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 23, leave out ("school") and insert ("classes").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment argeed to.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH moved to delete "or offensive" from subsection (14). The noble Lord said: I hope that the Government will allow the deletion of these words. I do not quite understand the genesis of this provision. It was not in the Bill when first introduced, and it found its way there at some stage in another place. I do not quite understand what the object is of the words "or offensive." They seem to me quite unnecessary, and they will create controversy. I quite agree that if the teaching is contrary to the religious belief of anybody it is an act of injustice to insist upon their receiving it, but it is a question of fact, and it is dealt with as a fact. The word "offensive" is an adjective, and as the parents have
1026
to make statements I am sure that the fact that they are invited to say that a thing is offensive is bad tactics. For my part I do not care whether it is Protestants who have to say that the Roman Catholic creed is offensive or vice versa. I do not think that they ought to be asked to say that any creed is offensive. I believe that these words have no real effect upon the matter with which we are dealing, and I hope that they may be omitted.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 24, leave out ("or offensive").—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The reason these words are here is this. They are in the corresponding section of the English Act. If my noble friend will look up subsection (9) of the tenth section of the Education Act for England, 1918, he will find these words: "If a young person, or the parent of a young person, under the age of sixteen represents in writing to the local education authority that he objects to any part of the instruction given in the continuation school which the young person is required to attend on the ground that it is contrary or offensive to his religious belief … the obligation under the Act to attend that school shall not apply to him." I submit that it would be very undesirable to have a difference in the wording of the two sections in the English Act and the Scottish Act. Moreover, there may be cases contrary to religious belief, as your Lordships will easily understand. There may be cases where it would be difficult to say that it was contrary to religious belief, and yet the matter might be handled in such a way as to render it highly offensive to persons of religious belief. For those reasons I hope that my noble friend will recognise that it is better to adhere to the words as they appear in the English Act.
VISCOUNT HALDANEI quite sympathise with the noble Lord. Though I do not like the word "offensive," I agree with the Lord Chancellor that it does cover a kind of case which might arise. I remember myself going into a Scottish board school some time ago where the chairman of the school board was a very good friend of my own, and a very zealous Free Kirk minister, and I found a room where religious instruction was going on,

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a large class room, and a group of children by themselves in a corner, and I asked my friend what these children were doing. "Oh," he said, "the Act compels us to exempt them from religious instruction and to put them aside, but it does not compel us to put them out of the room, and we keep them here in the hope that a crumb of the Word may drop into their little souls." I have no doubt that there was nothing which was taught that was contrary to the religious belief of those children or of their parents, but there was certainly something there offensive, notwithstanding that my friend was a very well-meaning man. I quite agree with the Lord Chancellor that there is something which has to be covered beyond what is covered by the word "contrary," and, although I do not believe the matter is very important, I do not think the noble Lord need have very much feeling about the word "offensive."
VISCOUNT BRYCE: I rather agree with my noble friend who moved the Amendment. I think the expression is unfortunate, and it ought to be possible for a draftsman to find a much better expression. Perhaps my noble friend at a later stage would suggest some words that would be better. This word does not seem to be at all happy. What is meant evidently is that the religious instruction ought not to contain anything which gives offence, but the word "offensive" is a different thing from giving offence, I think that if a somewhat longer and more roundabout expression could have been devised the result would have been attained which the Bill desires, but it would have been achieved in a more pleasant manner.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If my noble friend will give us his help in selecting some expression which will convey the meaning without the risk which he thinks attaches to the word "offensive," we will most carefully consider it.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: The difficulty I have is that part of the defence of this unfortunate clause was that it was in the English Bill, and that we do not want to make a difference between the English and the Scottish Bill. I think the best thing to do would be to delete the subsection. I give notice that on the Report stage I shall move to delete it altogether.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: There is, of course, no understanding whatever as to the attitude of the Government with regard to the Amendment on the Report stage, if my noble friend should move it.
LORD BALBOUR OF BURLEIGH: I have a very good understanding that the Government will oppose it.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Then I am perfectly satisfied.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next is a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 26, leave out ("that school") and insert ("those classes").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to omit from subsection (14) the words "attend some other instruction in lieu thereof or some other school," and to substitute "receive other instruction in lieu thereof or attend other classes." The noble and learned Lord said: This is really the same thing in another form.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, leave out lines 29 and 30, and insert ("receive other instruction in lieu thereof or attend other classes").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 17:
Amendment of Employment of Children Act, 1903.
17. The Employment of Children Act, 1903, so far as it relates to Scotland shall be amended as follows:—
(1) For subsection (1) of section three the following subsection shall lie substituted—
A child under the age of thirteen shall not be employed on any day on which he is required to attend school before the close of school hours on that day nor on any day before eight o'clock in the morning or after six o'clock in the evening, nor shall any child who is of the age of thirteen, be so employed unless he has been exempted under the Education (Scotland) Act, 1901, from the obligation to attend school:
(2) For subsection (2) of section three the following subsection shall be substituted—
No child or young person under the age of seventeen shall be employed in street trading:
(3) To section fourteen the following definition shall be added:—
The expression "child" means a person under the age of fifteen years, and for the purposes of this Act a child attending school shall be deemed to attain that age on the date prescribed for terminating school attendance next succeeding the fifteenth anniversary of his birth:
(4) References to the Education (Scotland) Act, 1901, shall be construed as references to that Act as amended by this Act.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR had on the Paper an Amendment, at the end of subsection (1), to insert "Provided that any local authority may by bye-law vary these hours, either generally or for any specified occupation." The noble and learned Lord said: I desire to move this Amendment not exactly in the form in which it stands. I propose for the word "hours" to substitute the word "restrictions," and to move the Amendment in that form. The reason of the change is simply this, that I do not think the word "hours" would necessarily fit the whole of the clause to which the proviso is intended to apply. For instance, the clause begins by saying this—
A child under the age of thirteen shall not be employed on any day on which he is required to attend the school before the close of school hours that day";
and then it goes on—
"nor on any day before eight o'clock in the morning or after six o'clock in the evening."
The word "hours" in the proviso, as it stands on the Paper, is perfectly apt for dealing with the second case, as to the hours before eight o'clock in the morning or after six o'clock in the evening; the word "hours" is not apt for denoting the first case, where a child under the age of thirteen is not to be employed on any day on which he is required to attend the school before the close of school hours. It is really verbal, but I think the Amendment is an improvement.
The reason for the Amendment on the merits is this, that the proviso in the same form will be found in Section 3, subsection (1), of the Employment of Children Act, 1903. At first it was thought that it was not necessary to introduce this into the Scottish Bill, but the provision now is pretty severe. As the Bill stands employment is prohibited before eight o'clock in the morning and after six o'clock in the evening. That would be drastic if it were
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universally enforced without a power of exemption, and I submit that it is only reasonable to provide some means of relaxation, and that would be done by the exercise of the power of making the bye-laws. The new education authority will be the authority, and the bye-laws require confirmation by the Secretary for Scotland according to the terms of the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page l7, line 13, at end insert ("Provided that any local authority may by byelaw vary these restrictions, either generally or for any specified occupation").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I should like to ask the Lord Chancellor about the expression "any local authority." I was relieved just now to hear that what the Government intends by that is the local education authority. But is that made clear by definition? For, as it stands, it has a most formidable and disastrous look. It appears as if any authority not interested in education might be able to exercise the power. Where is the definition which will apply to that?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The words could not possibly be read as relating to an authority for the purpose of dealing with sanitary matters; they would be read in an Act of this kind as the education authority. However, if my noble and learned friend has any doubt about it we will look carefully into it.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I am glad that the Government are to look into it, because it is not the phrase used in the Bill. "The local authority" as used here might mean the parish council or the county council.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: We mean the education authority.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: Our intention is nothing; it is the words we use.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 18:
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I think the Amending in my name is a correct drafting Amendment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I agree. I accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 34, leave out ("workshops") and insert ("workshop").—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 19:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If I leave out the word "any" at the point indicated the clause will read much better.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 16, leave out ("any").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The person or persons vested with the title of the school are the proper persons to set the Department in motion in a matter of this kind. I therefore move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 38, after ("Department") insert ("by the person or persons vested with the title of the school").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: As the words stand in line 39, it might be read that the majority of the children in the school must be shown to be from the particular district. That is not necessary, and "largely" would better meet the case.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 39, leave out ("mainly") and insert ("largely").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Line 41, leave out ("orphanage or").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 2, after ("department") insert ("by the person or persons vested with the title of the orphanage").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: The next two Amendments, I think, are purely drafting.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes; I accept them both.
Amendments moved—
Page 20, line 20, leave out ("(2)") and insert ("(3)").—
Page 20, line 31, leave out ("(2)") and insert ("(3)").—Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to,
Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 20 to 24 agreed to.
Clause 25:
Dismissal of teachers.
25.—(1) No resolution of an education authority for the dismissal of a certificated teacher from their service shall be valid unless—

(a) written notice of the motion for his dismissal shall, not less than three weeks before the meeting at which the resolution is adopted, have been sent to the teacher and to each member of the education authority; and

(b) the resolution is agreed to by two-thirds of the members of the education authority present and voting.

(2) Notwithstanding anything in this Act, it shall be lawful for any school management committee summarily to suspend any teacher from the exercise of his duties in any school or schools under their management; but such suspension shall not affect the teacher's rights to the salary or other emoluments attached to his office.
(3) Nothing in this Act shall affect the rights of teachers appointed before the passing of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1872, in so far as the same are saved by that Act, and the rights of teachers under section twenty-one of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908.
(4) The provisions of the Public Schools (Scotland) Teachers Act, 1882, which relate to the dismissal of certificated teachers, shall cease to have effect.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to insert, after subsection (1) (a), a new paragraph—
(b) Not less than one half of the members of the education authority are present at the meeting; and").
The noble and learned Lord said: This Amendment is desired for this reason. In dealing with matters such as the dismissal of a teacher, it is certainly desirable to promote confidence by having a tribunal adequate to deal with a matter of that gravity; and it is intended by this Amendment to secure that there shall be an attendance which will give confidence to the teaching profession, and which will be recognised as adequate to deal with points of that kind.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, after line 23, insert:
"(b) Not less than one half of the members of the education authority are present at the meeting; and").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment standing in my name is purely drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, leave out line 25, and insert ("so present").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 25, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 26:
Advisory councils in education areas.
26. It shall be the duty of every education authority within three months after the first election thereof to establish an advisory council, consisting of persons qualified to represent the views of bodies interested in education, for the purpose of advising the authority on matters referred to the advisory council by the authority, and the authority shall take into consideration any advice or representation submitted to them by the advisory council.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: It is desirable to provide a compendious description for the particular body mentioned, and this Amendment does that.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 3, after ("council") insert ("(in this Act called a 'local advisory council')").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out "referred to the advisory council by the authority" and to insert "of educational interest relating to the education area." The noble and learned Lord said: it is better to define the matters which may be so brought forward as being matters which relate to education and particularly affect the education area.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 5, leave out from ("matters") to ("and") in line 6, and insert ("of educational interest relating to the education area").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is merely drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 7, after ("the") insert ("local").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 26, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 27 agreed to.
Clause 28:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Some provision of the kind made in this Amendment is desirable, and the proposed words meet the case.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 30, at end insert ("The expenses of any such inquiry as certified by the Department shall be paid by the authority").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 28, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 29 and 30 agreed to.
Clause 31:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This clause says, "In future the Scotch Education Department shall be known as the Scottish Education Department." The Amendment is simply to leave out the words "In future." The spelling "Scottish" is preferred to "Scotch," and there is no reason to say "in future" because it will begin to operate under the terms on the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 7, leave out ("in future").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 31, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
First Schedule agreed to.
Second Schedule:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The wording of paragraph 8 of this Schedule is obviously not very happy, because it says "Except in two of the months," not specifying which. The Amendment in my name will put this right.
Amendment moved—
Page 28, lines 39 and 40, leave out ("except in two of the months of July, August and September") and insert ("provided that it shall not be necessary to hold more than one such meeting between the end of June and the beginning of October").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment merely applies Section 93 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1899, to every case where the Secretary for Scotland is authorised or required by the Act to make an Order, or to hold an Inquiry; and then makes provision with regard to the cost of the Inquiry.
Amendment moved—
Page 29, after line 35, insert as a new paragraph:
"14. Section ninety-three of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1889 (which relates to local inquiry, &c.), shall apply in any case where the Secretary for Scotland is authorised or required by this Act to make any order or to hold any inquiry: Provided that the costs of any inquiry held in pursuance of the section of this Act relating to electoral divisions and constitution of authorities shall be deemed to be expenses incident to the first election of the education authority for the education area to which the inquiry relates."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Third Schedule:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Clause 4 of this Schedule provides that a member of the Committee may resign on giving to the committee one month's notice in writing of his intention so to do. This Amendment is intended to secure that he should give notice to the education authority as well as to the committee, which, I submit, is desirable.
Amendment moved—
Page 31, line 18, after ("the") insert ("education authority and the")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I propose to insert, at the beginning of section 12, the words "Subject to the provisions of this Act." I think there should be a limitation of the duties laid upon the local committee. Surely it should be distinctly subject to the provisions of the Act, and the committee should not be obliged to do anything which the education authority tells them, whether it is within or without the Act.
Amendment moved—
Page 32, line 13, at beginning insert ("subject to the provisions of this Act").—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Third Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Fourth Schedule:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I move in section 11 (a), after council, to insert "and to the convener or vice-convener." The section refers to giving certain duties to the convener or vice-convener, and it is desirable to apply these terms to the case of the education authority, and for that purpose I propose to insert these words.
Amendment moved—
Page 34, line 17, after ("Council") insert ("and to the convener or vice-convener").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: At the end of the same paragraph a I move to insert "and to the chairman respectively." That is to apply the provisions of this Act.
Amendment moved—
Page 34, line 18, at end insert ("and to the chairman respectively").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I propose to leave out from subsection 11 (c) the word "of transfer," and to insert "when the loss arose." This relates to the time when the complaint may be put forward, and "when the loss arose" seems fair, as giving a somewhat longer time. Before that the attention of the person who considers himself aggrieved might not have been called to the matter.
Amendment moved—
Page 34, line 25, leave out ("of transfer") and insert ("when the loss arose").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Fourth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Fifth Schedule:
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I rather think that the noble Lord in charge of the Bill proposes to do, in another way upon Schedule 6, what my Amendment to this Schedule seeks to do. If that is the case, and if he prefers to do it on the Sixth Schedule. I will not move.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am prepared to accept the Amendment of my noble friend.
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 24, at end insert ("and in section five the words 'except in the case of a deaf mute child under seven years of age' shall be omitted").—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The new paragraph which I now propose to insert is really an adaptation of Section 5 of the Employment of Children Act Of 1903, which related to offences and penalties under that Act, and the Amendment is really consequential to the raising of the age to seventeen before which street trading is prohibited.
Amendment moved—
Page 35, after line 24, insert as a new paragraph:
"4. In the Employment of Children Act, 1903, in subsections (1) and (2) of section five, for the words 'age of sixteen' there shall be substituted the words 'age of seventeen.'"—The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My next Amendment is in section 4 (b), to insert "or meetings of a local advisory council." It is only reasonable that the travelling expenses of local advisory councils should be provided.
Amendment moved—
Page 36, line 9, at end insert ("or meetings of a local advisory council").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: It is not desirable that at the moment the age is attained, in the middle of a session, the suspension of the provision should take effect, and I therefore propose that we should say "at the close of the school session" in which the age is attained.
Amendment moved—
Page 36, line 16, at end insert:
"(c) In section five, for the words 'age of sixteen years' there shall be substituted the words 'close of the school session in which they attain the age of sixteen years.'"—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH had on the paper an Amendment to insert at the end of the Schedule the following proviso: "Provided that before an order by the Department is operative for adapting
1038
the provisions of the Act or Confirmed Order of a governing body of an endowed school, the Department shall intimate the terms of the order to the governing body concerned, and the governing body shall have right, within one month from the date of the intimation by the Department, to appeal to the Court of Session against the adaptation of their Act or Order."
The noble Lord said: I wish to call the attention of the House to the last subsection of this schedule, which says that "The Department may by order at any time after the passing of this Act make such further adaptations in the provisions of any Act (including any local Act and any provisional order duly confirmed) as may seem to them necessary to make those provisions conform with the provisions of this Act, and any order so made shall operate as if enacted in this Act." This seems, in my humble judgment, to give absolutely unlimited power of legislation to the Department without any appeal or without Parliament or any other authority being brought in at all. If that is so, I wish to ask what happens to schemes under the Educational Endowment (Scotland) Act, 1882, which are not absolutely mentioned in this clause. I want to know whether under the construction of this Act those schemes are to be at the mercy of the Department without any appeal. I have had communications on the subject, and the Amendment in my name is put down at the instance of the Merchant Company of the City of Edinburgh, who are under apprehension that their private Acts, which regulate their endowed schools, will be at the mercy of the Department.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The provision to which this Amendment relates is that the Department may by Order after the passing of the Act make adaptations in any Act, whether local or provisional order, as may seem necessary to make those provisions conform with the provisions of this Act. That follows very closely the provision in the Education Act of 1902. At the end of the Third Schedule my noble friend will find that there is this provision: "The Local Government Board may, after consultation with the Board of Education, by order make such adaptations in the provisions of any local Act (including any Act to confirm a Provisional Order and any scheme under the Municipal Corporations Act, 1882, as amended by any subsequent Act) as may seem to them to be

1039
necessary to make those provisions conform with the provisions of this Act, and may also in like manner, on the application of any council who have power as to education under this Act and have powers as to education under any local Act, make such modifications in the local Act as will enable the powers under that Act to be exercised as if they were powers under this Act." I think the noble Lord will see that this Schedule does not go one whit beyond the provisions contained in the English Education Act of 1902, Schedule 3, paragraph 12, which I have just read. Some such power is wanted; otherwise you would incur the expense of having, it may be, a private Act of Parliament, and as the only object is to bring the scheme into conformity with the provisions of this Bill I submit to the Committee that it need hardly be apprehended that the powers would be abused in the slightest degree.
The Amendment which my noble friend has on the Paper provides that "before an Order by the Department is operative for adapting the provisions of the Act or Confirmed Order of a governing body of an endowed school, the Department shall intimate the terms of the Order to the governing body concerned, and the governing body shall have right, within one month from the date of the intimation by the Department, to appeal to the Court of Session against the adaptation of their Act or Order." I submit that to appeal to a Court of Law is not desirable. It is a matter into which discretion very largely enters, and the Court of Session of course is constituted to deal only with matters of law. If it is claimed that some modification of the Act or Provisional Order is necessary in these circumstances, is it not very undesirable to say that there shall be an appeal to a Court of Law upon the point? I respectfully submit these considerations to my noble friend, and I hope he will be satisfied with this clause, which follows closely the clause which I have read in the English Act, and is one which will be useful in its operation and of the abuse of which there is no danger.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: There is a question of general interest here. It is a most tremendous power to give to any Department, the power by Order to repeal Acts of Parliament. That is what is given. I know it has been done over and over again, but the fact that it was done in
1040
England in an Act a little time ago is no reason for doing it now. We have done it much more recently than that, and it is a procedure which savours somewhat of a kind of Bolshevism. I wish it had never been introduced. On the other hand, as against that, it is a very convenient procedure, and if the Government are satisfied that the Department into whose hands it may come can be trusted with this great power of getting rid of what the Legislature has enacted, they will only be doing what they have done about twenty times in the course of the last two or three years, and I think probably more often.
There is no doubt that it is a very convenient power, because you cannot be always bringing in Acts to get rid of the effects of obsolete Acts and Provisional Orders. I quite agree that the Amendment which my noble friend said he had been asked to put down, and which he has put down, would do no good. The Court of Session would say, "Here is a power, in their discretion, for the Scottish Education Department to change the law. They have changed the law. There is no appeal to us. We are a Court of Law to interpret the law, but the Department has changed the law. How can there be an appeal to us? What standard have we to apply?" I am afraid you would have to appeal to Parliament or the Sovereign in Council, or make some other effective appeal.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I would like a distinct answer to this question—Is this subsection intended to include all the Orders made under the Education Endowments Act of 1882? They are not mentioned. I am anxious to understand the position. They are not local Acts or Provisional Orders duly confirmed, but the schemes have obtained the sanction of Parliament. In addition to that, I want to ask whether the Department is going to claim under this provision that it has the right to alter the Statute of the Merchant Company of Edinburgh.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: With regard to the first question put by the noble Lord, the schemes to which he refers, as I understand, are confirmed by Acts of Parliament.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: Not all.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Of course, if they are not, they would not fall within the terms of the clause. I understood my noble friend to say that they were. This applies to the provisions of any Act, including any local Act and any Provisional Order duly confirmed. A scheme confirmed by Act is really part of an Act of Parliament. However, I will most carefully consider before the next stage what my noble friend has said, and will communicate with him upon the subject.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: Then I will not move the Amendment now.
LORD MUIR MACKENZIE: I cannot refrain from uttering one protest against the practice of altering Acts of Parliament by any other authority. It is quite true, as the noble and learned Viscount opposite said, that this has been done several times lately in English Acts of Parliament. I think that, if not on all occasions, upon most occasions, there has been added some sort of a check, such as that alterations of that kind are to be made by Orders in Council, which are to be laid upon the Table of the House as soon as possible, or something of that kind. There is no restriction here, but there is a mitigating circumstance, and I think a very strong mitigating circumstance—that the alteration of the Act of Parliament is limited to making it to be "in conformity with this Act." It is not, as there has been in some of the Acts, power to modify the Act of Parliament. It is limited to bringing an Act into conformity with the provisions of this measure, and I think that that is a limitation which is valuable to the minds of those who protest against this whole method of proceeding. The only other thing I wish to say is that I cannot think that an appeal to a Court of Law would be right in a case of this sort. There may be an appeal in some form, such as laying the Order on the Table of the House, which makes an appeal to Parliament, but I venture to think that the Amendment of my noble friend opposite could not be properly worked.
Fifth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Sixth Schedule:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The addition which I now move to the Sixth Schedule is really consequential upon the Amendment which was proposed by Lord
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Balfour of Burleigh and accepted by me. It is desirable not to leave the words that are virtually repealed by the Amendment which the House has passed on his Motion. To make assurance doubly sure, we put them into the Schedule of repealed enactments.
Amendment moved—
Page 37, after line 41, insert:

"53&54 Vict. c. 43.

The Education of Blind and Deaf-Mute children (Scotland) Act, 1890.

In section five the words 'except in tke case of a deaf-mute child under seven years of age.')"

—The Lord Chancellor.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Sixth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: Will the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack say how long he will give us before we take the next stage of the Bill?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I do not know whether my noble friend will be ready on Thursday.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I do not think that is fair. Some of the Amendments which have been proposed on behalf of other people have been rejected, and there is no time to communicate with Scotland before Thursday next. I think we ought to see the Bill reprinted, and have time to send it to Scotland, and ask for help and advice.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: What the noble Lord has said is quite enough. Will Tuesday of next week do? It is very desirable that there should not be any unnecessary delay in passing the Bill. We do not want to leave it too late, and risk the chance of it not being passed.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I do not think your Lordship can complain of unnecessary delay in connection with this Bill. I do not know, of my own knowledge, all the wishes of those whom I am asked to represent, and I say it is distinctly to the discredit of this House if we are not able to communicate with those for whom we want to act. We want to act in a representative way; we shall not act in the same representative way, of course, as the other House of Parliament,

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but we desire to do hat we do with the fullest knowledge, and in accordance with the wishes of all those who are interested in this subject in Scotland. There was very little time between the Second Reading and the Committee stage, and confusion was brought in by the fact that the people who made representations to us were taking the Bill as printed by the House of Commons, in which the clauses and sections and lines were different. This created a difficulty which was sonething perfectly stupendous; and I hope that the Bill will be reprinted in time for us to communicate with Scotland before another stage is reached.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I did not intend to press the noble Lord. I assented to his proposal, and suggested Tuesday. I hope we shall be able to get it through, so that there shall be no risk of the possibility of the Bill being lost.

MIDWIVES BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
SPECIAL COMMISSION (BELFAST PRISON) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

BURGHS GAS SUPPLY (SCOTLAND) AMEND MENT BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD STANMORE: My Lords, this is a very small measure, but it is not unimportant to the burghs concerned. In Scotland, the majority of municipal gas undertakings are administered under the Burghs Gas Supply (Scotland) Act of 1876. This Act provides for the imposition of a rate for the payment of interest on money borrowed under the Act, but not for the repayment of capital; and the absence of a provision for securing the repayment of capital has hampered Scottish corporations in borrowing money for their gas undertakings. The object of this Bill is to make the rate a security for payments to sinking funds. Most of the larger corporations have private Acts that give them a power which this Bill seeks to obtain for other corporations. I may add that the Bill is supported by the Convention of Royal Burghs of Scotland. I beg to move.
Moved, that the Bill be now read 2a—(Lord Stanmore.)
On Question, Bill read 2a.

EMPLOYMENT OF GERMAN PRISONERS.
LORD WILLOUGHBY DE BROKE LORD WILLOUGHBY DE BROKE rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether it is the case that no German combatant prisoners of war are employed in British coal mines.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, on the day that I put this Question on the Paper my noble friend Lord Lamington put down a Question of the same nature, but I allowed mine to stand because there is hardly anything which excites more public comment than what to the public, rightly or wrongly, seems to be the difference between the respective treatment of German and British prisoners of war. Questions of this kind have had the sympathy of the noble Lord, Lord Newton, because I notice when he was questioned about it one day last week he said he wondered more Questions of the kind had not been put. But, in spite of that, he gave an answer which was not satisfying in any way. He also gave the House to understand that he was the mouthpiece of, and was instructed by, the Government. Well, my Lords, it appears that the Government did not equip him with the kind of answer which will satisfy public opinion on this very important point.
I have no doubt that there may be some excellent and perfectly straightforward answer to this Question. The answer may be that prisoners of war are employed, either at home or abroad, on work which in the view of the Government, and indeed demonstratively, may be more important than being employed in the mines. Or it may be that there are other reasons why they should not be employed in the mines. But what is exercising the public mind at the moment is that British prisoners of war in Germany are receiving very harsh treatment, amounting to loss of life, in the mines over there. At the same time we are told to economise coal in this country. We also hear that German prisoners of war over here are not employed in getting coal from the mines. It is inconceivable that there is not some straightforward explanation of this, and I most respectfully hope that the Government will give some answer to this which will satisfy public opinion.

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If they will do so now, I will withdraw the Question which stands in my name. But if not, I think it will be your duty to return to this point at a later stage, provided there is a convenient date for doing so before the General Election.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY THE WAR OFFICE (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, I do not think I can add very much to what was said by my noble friend Lord Newton last week in answer to a Question of a rather similar nature. He pointed out that of the German prisoners in this country practically every available man is in employment of some kind or another. I may say that, roughly, we have 25,000 employed on agriculture. Those men are in camps varying in strength between thirty and 250 men. In addition to those 25,000, we have about 4,500 in migratory gangs—that is to say, men five or ten strong, travelling about the country to the farms where they are required. And, further, there are about 1,200 men actually living with farmers. Prisoners are also employed at forestry, and, as my noble friend knows, forestry is essential to coal mines, because one of the great difficulties experienced in coal mines now is the lack of a definite provision of pit-props. There also cement production, lime production, work in the shipyards, building operations and hay pressing.
Speaking from memory, I think that we have somewhere about 97,000 prisoners in this country, and we are employing about 58.000. The difference between the two figures is made up entirely of men whom it is impossible to employ. I think that there are 5,500 officers, 11,000 non-commissioned officers, and about 11.000 men in hospital, and 3,000 men only fit for light work who are employed on such duties as it possible to employ them on, like camp fatigues, preparing prisoners' clothing, etc. Thus we account for every single man of the 39,000 who are not in permanent work in this country. Therefore, unless you are going to take the prisoners away from work which they are now engaged upon, there are no men available to put into the coalmines.
As my noble friend Lord Newton pointed out last week, the trade unions have objected—and I think objected with some reason—to the employment of German prisoners in mines, because it is always possible, in a coal mine, if any man opens his
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lamp, to set fire to the mine. There would then be caused great loss of life and destruction of the mine. Therefore unless it would be possible to use all German prisoners in one mine by themselves, I think that the miners have great justification in objecting to prisoners being employed in the same mine as themselves.
As regards the employment of British prisoners in Germany, there they are very largely employed, I believe, in salt mines, where of course they have no possibility of being able to destroy German properly and Germany lives. Every one feels only too strongly that if we had an opportunity of getting level with the Germans by employing German prisoners here in mines under conditions very much the same as those under which they employ our men we should do so, but there are these two difficulties. At present all the German prisoners in this country who are available for employment are actually at work of importance, and the coal miners—though I understand that the Coal Controller hopes to get over the difficulty with the trade unionists—object to their employment in mines. If this difficulty be got over, and the work on which the prisoners are now employed is considered of less importance, I have no doubt that they will be employed is the coal mines.
LORD LAMINGTON: My Lords, I think that the answer which has just been given is a very disingenuous one. Take the question of the danger of the employment of German prisoners in British coal mines at the same time as our own miners. The pits in the country only work shifts of eight hours, and therefore there are sixteen hours left, and during a certain portion of those sixteen hours the mines would be free for German prisoners to go into. Moreover, many mines are quite free from gas, and there would be no question of taking in lamps, for those mines are absolutely safe. As regards all the German prisoners being employed, I suggest, as we are told by the authorities that we are faced with a great coal famine and that the industries will not be able to work full time owing to a shortage of coal, that it would perhaps be better to divert some of these prisoners from, say, agricultural work to mining. I am rather doubtful whether the noble Earl's classification is complete. I know one case in which a large body of German prisoners are engaged entirely in helping to

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make a waterworks. It is not a matter of national importance whether the water-works are finished six months sooner or six months later. I think, therefore are German prisoners now engaged on certain work who could be better employed in the coal mines. Of course, you cannot forcibly employ a non-commissioned officer, but I imagine that it would be legitimate
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to employ non-commissioned officers if they wish to work, and I do not see why you should not get a good many of the 11,000 non-commissioned officers to express a willingness to work rather than live in a state of idleness.
House adjourned at five minutes before seven o'clock.