SEXUAL OFFENCES BILL. [H.L.] (Hansard, 7 May 1918)

§ EARL BEAUCHAMP
My Lords, I agree with the remarks which have fallen from the noble Viscount who speaks for the Government, that the debate which has taken place on this subject has been very useful. I hope it will provide a great deal of motive power and assist the Government in dealing with the question. I am sure your Lordships would not wish me to go into detail on the subject of the Bill to which I have the honour to ask you to give a Second Reading this evening. I shall content myself with explaining, briefly, the underlying principles which induced me to draw it up.
One misconception I should like to remove at once. One noble Lord described it as being a rival Bill to that of the Government. I can assure your Lordships that this is far from my intention. I introduced it rather as a stimulant than for any other purpose, and in the hope, which I am glad to think has been gratified, that the Government itself would take up the subject and deal with it in a Bill of their own. The Government have introduced their own Bill, and I am sure there are many in your Lordships' House, and outside, who will welcome their action.
The Bill that I am moving deals with problems which are urgent, and which ought to be dealt with without any undue delay. The two principles which were in my mind in dealing with the question were, first, to assist and to protect the young soldier from difficulties and temptations which come not only from within but also from without; and, secondly, to deal as far as possible with both sexes on an equality. I think I may claim, from one or two expressions of opinion which have reached me from women's organisations, to have accomplished those objects with some success. With regard to the provisions of the Bill, I do not wish to commit myself as to the actual clauses whether in principle or in detail. I put it forward as a Bill for discussion by the Joint Select Committee and by your Lordships' House, and from the experience I have had of the admirable work which is done by Joint Select Committees I have very little doubt that they will be able to go into the matter with considerable success. The unfor- 989 tunate thing is that so many people when they go in for social reform are never content unless they can get the whole measure of reform which they themselves especially happen to want. If they cannot get that, then they block everybody else who wants to pass some similar measure of social reform perhaps not going quite so far or perhaps going farther. They are never content unless the measure is exactly what they themselves want. That certainly is not my position in this matter, and I do not think that it would be the attitude of the members of the Select Joint Committee.
There is one matter to which I wish to refer and which I think can be properly mentioned, and that is in regard to the consolidation of the law dealing with this particular subject. Your Lordships know that it is the usual practice in this House for consolidation to be dealt with separate and apart from any amendment of the law, but in preparing this Bill an expert upon these subjects suggested to me that with the amendments I should combine a Consolidating Bill. Having taken advice I did not see my way to do that on the present occasion, but I hope that the Joint Select Committee may take the matter into consideration and express an opinion upon the subject.
The Joint Select Committee, I am sure, would be much strengthened if it had been possible for Lord Parmoor, who has now left the House, to joie, that body. He, I think, was more critical of the provisions of the two Bills than any other member of your Lordships' House, and I could wish that he would have become a member of that Committee, and have helped it with his advice. In any case, your Lordships will no doubt remember that the Bill will come back to this House in another shape, and on that occasion it will be possible for any of your Lordships to criticise it or to deal with it in the way in which we always deal with Bills that come before this House. I will now formally move the Second Reading of the Bill, and say that I shall afterwards move that it be referred to the same Joint Select Committee as that to which the noble Viscount who represents His Majesty's Government has already referred his Bill.

§ LORD MUIR MACKENZIE
My Lords, I have had occasion to study both these Bills somewhat carefully, and I was prepared to have made some remarks to your Lordships upon both their principles and their details, but there has been so complete, and if I may say so, so satisfactory a debate this evening upon the first of the Bills that it seems to me I should unnecessarily be wasting your Lordships' time by making any of those remarks.
There is one point on which I should like to say a word, and that is about the question of inspection. The noble Lord opposite mentioned it. It is, of course, a very difficult and complicated question, and I was not surprised a few nights ago to hear a very strong protest raised against a subject of that kind having been dealt with under an Executive Order. The effect of both Bills—it is in the Government Bill as well as in that of the noble Earl—is to put this matter before what everybody will admit is the only competent authority to deal with it—namely, before Parliament. The clause—I think it is Clause 5—which contains a provision with regard to it will, I am glad to hear, go before a Joint Committee and be carefully considered, and then brought back to this House and to the other House of Parliament. It will therefore be settled by the one authority which I venture to say ought to deal with it.
Before I sit down I should like to say one word on the subject of consolidation, to which the noble Earl referred. I was aware that he had been very strongly pressed to bring in a Bill to consolidate and to amend the law. Nothing could have been more unfortunate than if he had done so from the point of view of anybody who wishes business done. It would have been impossible to prevent any one from raising any question upon the whole field of this department of legislation, and I am perfectly certain that your Lordships would never have given a Second Reading to such a Bill. The noble Earl has, therefore, shown a very wise discretion in having declined to embark upon such an undertaking. But as to the future it is quite a practical thing, and if a satisfactory Bill is framed with the aid of a Joint Committee, after hearing evidence, it may be thought that it will be well that the Acts of Parliament with reference to this subject should be combined and crystallised so as to last for some years in the form of one Consolidated Act.
991 I certainly think that we are very fortunate not to have before us such a Bill at this moment.
I hope that your Lordships will read this Bill a second time and refer it to a Joint Committee. The most rev. Primate said that the only objection to referring it to a Committee was the possibility of delay. But your Lordships will observe that if the other House is willing to accede to the proposal of this House and the Bill goes to a Joint Committee of both Houses the Committee Stage in detail will be gone through once and for all, and although, of course, it will afterwards be open to criticism in both Houses of Parliament separately, yet the most substantial and difficult part of the operation will have been carried through in Joint Committee, instead of being gone through twice, as would be the case if the Bill were not so referred.

§ VISCOUNT SANDHURST
My Lords, I have only a word to say. I am sure that my noble friend will understand that I do not recognise his Bill as a competing Bill in any shape or form with my Bill. I would only say, in addition to what I have stated already, that everything in this direction assists and helps us upon the road we are endeavouring to travel. In the noble Earl's Bill there are three clauses which closely resemble three of the clauses in the Government Bill. The only difference I think is that he tries to go what I may call "one better" than the Government Bill. In regard to what has fallen from one or two noble Lords respecting the Joint Select Committee, I may say, as your Lordships know—but some of you appear to have overlooked it—that though the Bill may go to a Select Committee it must go through and run the gauntlet of all the various stages of Bills in the House itself, so that there will be ample opportunity for criticism or Amendments as the Bill passes through its stages.