§ LORD LAMINGTON rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether, in view of the fresh restrictions which the Board of Trade are imposing on railway travelling, sleeping coaches should no longer run, so that a more equitable amount of accommodation may be provided for the general public; and to move for Papers.
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, I do not think that I need enter into an explanation of the Question that I have upon the Paper. It is possible that the Railway Executive may have determined to withdraw the sleeping coaches to which my Question refers. My reason for raising the subject is that for a long time the night trains going North have been so crowded, especially with officers and men coming and going on leave, that there has not been seating accommodation for all those who travel; consequently a number of people have either had to stand, or, if there was room, lie down in the corridors. That is not fair treatment for what I may term the general public, who should not be put to this extremity of discomfort whilst a few—a very few—enjoy all the pre-war luxury of lying down in comfortable sleeping berths. There are fresh restrictions, and presumably there will be fewer trains and fewer coaches, and consequently the overcrowding may be increased.
§ LORD STANMOREMY Lords, the number of sleeping cars run on the railways has, of course, been very largely reduced since the beginning of the war, and if further restrictions, such as the noble Lord has alluded to, come into force, it may he necessary to reduce them still further. But the railway companies are of opinion, and the Board of Trade agree with them, that it is very desirable to keep a few sleeping cars running. These are largely used by soldiers and sailors—officers of the Army and Navy—and by other persons doing Government work, and therefore efforts will be made to keep a few running.
§ LORD LAMINGTONThen there really ought to be sufficient accommodation provided for other people to sit during their night's journey. If the railway companies are not able to provide that adequate amount of accommodation then they ought to take off the sleepers. I should like to ask whether the noble Lord will get some information as to the number of sleepers 993 that are running. I should like to have a comparison made between the weight of a sleeping coach and of an ordinary railway carriage; and also of the number of people who are accommodated in a sleeping coach, as compared with the number who might be carried either in an ordinary first-class or an ordinary third-class railway carriage. It seems to be grossly unfair that, because people are officials, they should be allowed this great luxury, while a number of people are put to an extreme form of discomfort.
I can speak from personal experience. I take advantage, when I can, of the sleeper, but I was unable, even after three or four days' request, to get a sleeper and I had to lie down and be trampled on all night in the corridor. It is one of the most disagreeable experiences you can have. The noble Lord referred to officials who had to travel on important business, and therefore (I suppose he meant) had to be fresh for the next morning's work. On the other hand, a number of officers who do not even get seats have to go through this form of discomfort—officers and men going back to France, having to take up their responsible duties as soon as they arrive, or officers going up North to the Fleet; and they have a most horrible night's rest. I have no objection to the coaches running, provided everybody gets a seat in the train, but, if the Railway Executive are unable to provide that amount of accommodation, then they ought to take off the sleeping coaches. Therefore I hope we shall get some information on the subject, and that the noble Lord will ask for a Return to be made on the lines I have indicated or on some other lines which I could indicate to him afterwards. Accommodation should be given to the general public to the deprivation of the very few people who get these sleeping coaches.
EARL RUSSELLI think everybody must sympathise with what the noble Lord has said about the extreme discomfort of travelling at the present time, and it is difficult, no doubt, to resist the suggestion he has made that there is a certain amount of accommodation given to some people by sleeping carriages which to some extent lessens the accommodation available for the general public. In one sense perhaps it is indefensible, but in another sense I believe the true defence is this, that when you have people of very considerable importance who have to 994 make journeys, as unfortunately they have in these days, if you provide a sleeping car for them they can save a day and arrive fresh next morning If you do not, it will mean that they will have to waste a day in travelling.
§ LORD LAMINGTONThey will have a seat.
EARL RUSSELLIf I may, I will illustrate what I mean with the case of Lord Pirrie, who has been recently appointed Shipping Controller. Suppose he has to take a journey to Scotland, as he very well may, on some important business. It is perfectly obvious that, if he can get a sleeping car and rest for the night, he can save a day's work. A day's work of people in that position may be worth a good deal, and it may be worth while putting people to some inconvenience. That is the real reason and justification of sleeping carriages. I am not for a moment comparing myself to Lord Pirrie, but I did have to go on business to Cornwall the other day, and I found that to the West of England there is only one sleeping car running at night. That is not very much for the whole of the West of England, but it definitely saves a whole day's work to be able to go by night and arrive fresh next morning. I have colleagues who have to travel to Scotland and from Scotland—occasionally they have to do it rather often; and Members of Parliament and members of this House have to do it rather often, and they would have to waste a very great deal of time if they were never able to travel by night. Also people of a certain age are really hardly able to travel at night. They would have to travel by day. Therefore, although on many grounds sleeping carriages in these days cannot be defended, still in that way you are saving a day's time, and in the course of the year a great many days time, of people whose services are of enormous importance to the country, and it is just worth while to keep the very restricted services that we now have.
§ LORD LAMINGTONWill the noble Lord grant a Return? I will give him the details.
§ LORD STANMOREThe Board of Trade are now endeavouring to obtain information on the subject from the railway companies, and I will see that any informa- 995 tion which they suceed in obtaining is given to the noble Lord.