HL Deb 11 June 1918 vol 30 cc188-206

LORD STRACHIE rose to call attention to the statement of Mr. Clynes that the Ministry of Food have accepted the recommendations of the Astor Committee (State Control of Milk), and to move to resolve "That this House disapproves of such control."

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I desire to draw the attention of the Government to a statement which has been made by the Secretary of the Ministry of Food. Speaking the other day Mr. Clynes said— In order to avoid unnecessary transport and overlapping in distribution, I have accepted the recommendation of the Committee so ably presided over by Major Astor. That Committee up to the present moment has published two Reports, and I have been given to understand that another Report has already been presented, although it has not been printed and circulated to members of either House. All we have to go by is what the Committee have already recommended. In some places the Reports are rather contradictory, but, so far as one is able to gather, it would appear that the principal recommendation is that milk depôts should be established throughout the length and breadth of the country; and the Committee say that if these depôts were established, if the milk were sent from the farm to properly-equipped depôts, the exact quantities wanted by retailers could be despatched, and the surplus disposed of without worry or loss by the producer or distributor.

It would seem that the suggestion is that the Government should take over the wholesale supply of milk to the retailers in the different parts of the country—that the farmers no longer should be allowed to send their milk direct to the great town or direct to any large wholesale business. Instead of that, it is suggested that the milk should be collected from the farmers by a Government Department, the Ministry of Food. The Committee go on to explain what they mean as regards these depôts, showing they mean depots established by Government Departments, because they say the Committee are convinced that nothing approaching the minimum of depots required could be established in time to affect the situation this winter or even next summer. I should have thought that if these depots were to be established, there is time even now to establish then before next winter. There is also the suggestion that the depots might be established by subsidised societies such as the Agricultural Organisation Society, and also that the Board of Agriculture might set up these depots. If that were done the suggestion is that there would be better and more milk, more cheese, and more butter.

Apparently, these depots are not merely to be large collecting stations, but are also to be large manufactories where milk will be turned into butter and into cheese. The Government, on these conditions, would be going in for very large trading indeed. That seems to be the decision which Mr. Clynes says the Government, or rather the Ministry of Food, have accepted in the Report of the Astor Committee. If, of course, the Committee had only said "We mean to have supervision, but not control," that would be a very different matter, because I am the last one to say that in present conditions it might not be necessary to have supervision. That, however, is a very different thing from taking over, as seems to be the desire of the Astor Committee whose recommendation has been approved by Mr. Clynes. He also goes further and says— This decision has been accepted unanimously by the Consumers Council after full discussion. It is agreed, therefore, that the Minister must become responsible for the wholesale collection, utilisation, and distribution of milk. I think this is a very large order indeed. If the Government is to be responsible for wholesale collection, it means collecting the milk from the producers throughout the length and breadth of the country. Apparently, it would go to the depots which the Committee recommend should be established; but Mr. Clynes seems to go further, because he speaks of utilisation. Perhaps the noble Earl, Lord Crawford—who according to the communiqué in The Times this morning is going to reply—will explain not only what wholesale collection means but also the meaning of "utilisation." Apparently, utilisation would take the form of great Government factories to make butter and cheese, and also to reduce milk into that powder which has been found so very useful in order that milk may be stored and kept where there is too large an amount for use in the winter. That, no doubt, is a very valuable utilisation of milk.

Then as regards distribution. It would seem that the idea is that from these depots milk should be distributed not to wholesale people but to the retailer in every large district—and in every village, I suppose. I venture to ask the noble Earl if he will say how it is that the Ministry of Food apparently never consulted the Consumers Council in this matter. Surely some attention should be given to the producers in this question. At the present moment there is actually, I understand, an Agricultural Advisory Committee of the Ministry of Food, which was set up some little while ago. I was given to understand that Mr. Prothero had put on the Advisory Committee members from the Board of Agriculture. Certainly it was stated at the Council of the Royal Agricultural Society, as an inducement to them to depart from a long-standing rule that they would never go on any Committee or join a deputation—they preferred to act independently—that on this particular Committee the Board of Agriculture would be represented. Whether it was represented or not, how is [...]t that Mr. Clynes did not take the trouble to consult that Committee in this matter? I have been told that when he made this statement the question had never come before them at all, so that they had no opportunity to make any pronouncement upon the matter. Surely it seems a great neglect on the part of the Ministry of Food not to wait until a report was made to them.

I think that some attention might have been paid by Mr. Clynes to a resolution that he must have had in his hand before he made his speech announcing that the Government were going to take over the control and distribution of the milk supply in this country. My noble friend Lord Selborne is Chairman of the Central Chamber of Agriculture, and only last Tuesday that body passed the following resolution— That the Government be requested to come to no decision for placing milk distribution in the hands of a Government Department without informing the agricultural community and hearing their views. Surely that is a very moderate request to make. Yet the Ministry of Food have, apparently, treated it with absolute con- tempt, and have not endeavoured to find out what are the views of the agricultural community as represented by the Central Chamber of Agriculture in this matter, or consulted the Agricultural Advisory Committee to the Ministry of Food.

I think that some explanation is required from the Ministry of Food with regard to what Mr. Clynes said about retain distribution. He said— With regard to the point raised about retail distribution, I can only for the moment say that I think we must look more and more to our municipal authorities to accept greater responsibility in this matter than they have yet done. … Retail distribution of milk from street to street, and from house to house, is an urgent and important matter. That evidently seems to be what is in Mr. Clynes's mind, but whether it is in the mind of Lord Rhondda I very much doubt. We all regret that Lord Rhondda is unable to be here and give his own explanation in this matter; and unable to control what is going on at the Ministry of Food. If the statement means anything, it means that Mr. Clynes is looking forward not only to the wholesale collection and distribution of milk but to retailing milk as well, if not by a Government Department, then by municipalities. If it is "an urgent and important matter" I suppose Mr. Clynes, if he is allowed to do so, will proceed to set up not only wholesale depots but retail depots throughout the country, or get municipalities to set them up. It may be right or wrong to eliminate the small man and the trader entirely. We have often heard that the middleman should be eliminated, but up to now we have never heard a Minister say that the retailer should be eliminated by the Government or the municipality. I suppose the fact is that we have a Labour Member, a distinguished and able man, who has an opportunity of advocating the views which he held before he was a Minister, and is trying to induce the Government to adopt those views and accept the municipalisation of milk, wholesale and retail.

I should also like to refer to the question as to how this matter affects those large combinations of farmers set up all over the country, many of them in connection with the Agricultural Organisation Society, of which the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, is President. The other day, at a meeting immediately following the speech of Mr. Clynes, the Dairy Committee of the Agricultural Organisation passed the following resolution— The Dairy Committee of the A.O.S. anxiously awaits an assurance from the Ministry of Food that their intention is not to take over, but to supervise the wholesale collection, utilisation, and distribution of milk. They would strongly urge that the taking over of the wholesale trade in milk will deal a serious blow to the organisation of agriculture and to the present co-operative dairy societies. I think that goes without saying, under the proposal as outlined by Mr. Clynes. What would be the position of such societies under the proposal? At the present moment in the case of a sale of milk by the farmer direct to the retailer, the retailer paying the producer's price to the fanner retains for himself both the wholesaler's and retailer's profits. There are also the cases where a combination of farmers, who are affiliated with the Agricultural Organisation Society or the co-operative dairy societies, get their milk disposed of and sent either to the wholesaler or retailer as the case may be. Some of these societies, owing to the economical methods of business have been able to sell at such prices that the retailer in Leicestershire, Wiltshire, and Hampshire, has been able to sell milk under the Government's maximum price. That, of course, is a great advantage to the consumer.

Should the State become the controller of all milk supplies there will be a great danger that the predominating interest of the consumer will dictate a policy of low prices and insist on the farmer selling at a price which he would not think remunerative. The farmer would reply by decreasing the amount of milk he produced, and there would be no advantage gained in the long run. It would be a great pity if anything were done by the Government to discourage private enterprise in this matter, or to discourage farmers from combining together in great co-operative associations not only for the distribution of milk but for making cheese and butter, which apparently Major Astor's Committee proposes to undertake.

There are, of course, further objections to this—objections which I have heard in this House, namely, the danger of creating a great bureaucracy and a larger number of staffs. I notice that Mr. Clynes boasted, apparently with the greatest pleasure, that the Food Ministry, which only a year ago numbered about 400, had now risen to 4,350. That was simply the central staff in London, and he added that the provincial staff now amounted to 2,339, of whom 1,305 may be described as higher officials. All these gentlemen are not doing work for nothing, and the meaning is that there is a large expenditure. I do not know whether there has been any report of the Public Accounts Committee in connection with the Ministry of Food, but we have lately been horrified to see that when the Auditor-General examined the accounts of the munitions and aircraft factories there were large discrepancies and gross expenditure of every kind. One fears that when these enormous Government Departments are set up we shall have the same things going on in the Ministry of Food which have apparently gone on in the Ministry of Munitions. The effect of this State control will be that there will be a combination of political and bureaucratic influences; gigantic Government offices filled with persons mostly without training but securely drawing their salaries; details left to officials who would suffer no pecuniary penalty in the case of financial loss, and prices raised or reduced according to the political requirements of the Government of the day.

In a communication this morning from the Ministry of Food I notice it was stated— Lord Crawford will reply for the Ministry of Food, which has not only considered the question of control but also of purchasing the milk supply—policy which has been recommended by a sub-committee of the Ministry. We understand that it is very unlikely that purchase will be decided upon, but that a far-reaching system of control will be created, as in the case of other essential foods. The dearth of supply during the coming winter is regarded as inevitable and equitable distribution is a national necessity. There may be a dearth of milk in the coming winter if the Ministry of Food treats this question as it has treated every other. Whenever the Government has interfered in the question of prices, at once there has been a dearth or a total stoppage of the supply, as in the case of butter. Lord Rhondda himself told me that he had deliberately fixed the price of butter at such a figure that it should not be worth while making it. In consequence, in certain districts where they could only make butter and there were no facilities for transportation the butter was thrown back absolutely upon the producers because it could not be sold.

As regards the question of milk supply prices, what an extraordinary position the Ministry of Food have taken up! No one who understands anything of dairying in this country will contradict me when I say that May is one of the most difficult months in which to produce milk; yet for May the Ministry fixed the price at 1s. a gallon, while in June, when it is much easier to get a supply of milk, they raised it to 1s. 4d. a gallon, a price for which the farmers themselves did not ask. You really cannot tell what is to be the policy which will guide this Ministry. At one time they say they will put a price on milk so that it will not be worth while for a farmer to have a supply of milk, and at another time they put on a price which, of course, the farmer is delighted to have, but which he has never asked for. It was much more necessary to have the price of 1s. 4d. a gallon in May than it was in June. All I am asking the noble Earl, who is, I see, to reply to me, is whether he means by "control" merely supervision. If he means only supervision, as I said at the beginning of my remarks, I have no objection to it. I quite admit it to be necessary. If, on the other hand, the Government mean what Mr. Clynes said the Government intended to do—namely, that they were to be responsible for the wholesale collection and distribution of milk—I think that is going a very long way on the road to State Socialism, which no doubt is quite approved by Mr. Clynes and other Labour Members. I beg to move.

THE EARL OF SELBORNE

My Lords, I think it may be convenient, before the noble Earl opposite replies, if I say what I have to say. I will allude first of all to a point which my noble friend raised at the beginning of his remarks when he said that he thought it was very unfortunate that the Food Control Department consulted the Consumers Council on this matter and then came to a decision without consulting anybody connected with the producers, although there was actually in existence an Advisory Agriculture Committee of the Food Control Department. I came a couple of hours ago from a meeting of that Advisory Committee, of which I happen to be a member, at which this matter was being discussed. I desire to speak with the greatest respect of Mr. Clynes, for whose devotion and ability we are all grateful, but I think that it was a very unfortunate think that he should have announced to Parliament that the Government had decided to take certain action on the Report of Major Astor's Committee and sub-Committee after consulting the Consumers Council and before any consultation had taken place with the representatives of agriculture. I think that was a tactical blunder which I hope will not be repeated. The agriculturists have been consulted today, and no doubt the Food Controller might modify his policy, if he thought fit, in accordance with the advice that he has received. But surely the only right course is for the Food Controller to consult both the producers and the consumers and then to announce his policy. We do not expect him always to take our advice, but it certainly will tend to friction and to results which we all deplore if the producers are only consulted after a policy has been announced to the House of Commons. I hope very much that will never occur again.

I want to ask my noble friend to make it quite clear to the House how much of the Report of Major Astor's Committee and sub-Committee it is contemplated to adopt. I ask that question after hearing the discussion this afternoon. The Report is a very long one, and it is not quite clear—at least it was not quite clear to me—where the policy of His Majesty's Government ended and the recommendations of the Astor Committee began; or, to put it the other way, where the recommendations of the Committee ended and the policy to be adopted by the Government began.

There are three main matters involved in the Report of the Astor Committee and sub-Committee. The first is that it is absolutely necessary for the Government to supervise the distribution of milk in the coming winter in order that, in the first place, every locality may have its fair share; and, secondly, to avoid a direct waste of railway service in sending milk criss-cross about the country. The second point is that the milk combine is a public danger, and that the Government must intervene to prevent it dominating the whole of the milk trade. The third suggestion is that the proper people to step into the shoes of the milk combine, not only now but permanently after the war, is a Government Department, to be solely and exclusively responsible for the wholesale and retail distribution of milk throughout Great Britain—I suppose not Ireland. I hope that it will be made quite clear by my noble friend opposite that the Government do not ask us, and will not ask us now, to give our assent to that particular proposition. It is not unreasonable to ask us to admit that the Government must for the benefit of the population control the distribution of milk during the progress of the war, and it is also quite a reasonable proposition to say that the Government must take steps to prevent the whole milk trade getting into the hands of a great combine—I do not think it will be found that producers any more than consumers will be wishful to do otherwise than help the Government in dealing with these two matters—but if we are to be asked now to take a step which is deliberately intended to make a Department of His Majesty's Government the only permanent agency for the distribution of milk wholesale or retail in this country we certainly are not at present prepared to give our assent to any such proposition.

I will not go into all the large questions involved in such an idea. I only want to allude to one argument which I understood Mr. Clynes to use as persuasive to the adoption of such a policy. I understood Mr. Clynes to lay stress on the amount of loss of power and waste of money that there was at present in the competition of a great number of small businesses, and in the circumstance that more than one cart went into the same street, and that milk was sent from Gloucester to London and from Hertfordshire to Bristol, and that kind of thing. I do not doubt that all this is true. But allowing for the amount of waste—and make that allowance as much as you like—after our present experience it would be a matter of absolute incredibility to any member of this House that a Government Department is ever going to do this business cheaper or more economically than the private trader. That is the one thing, after our experiences in this war, that we are not prepared to believe.

I wish to say one thing more, and that is about the co-operative societies, in regard to which my noble friend spoke. Many of us think that the spread of co-operative societies is going to be a great gain not only to the English farmer of every grade, but also to the consumer, because with the proper organisation of agriculture the goods ought to be delivered on the average in better quality, under better conditions, and at a cheaper rate than the average individual farmer can do it. All that is true of nothing more than the milk societies and creameries, and if anything the Government did now tended to discourage the co-operative movement, much more if it tended to destroy any of the co-operative societies already in existence, the result would, I believe, be a lamentable one, and not one, I am quite sure, which my noble friend opposite or any member of the Government would wish to bring about. Therefore I hope he will tell us that in any action which the Food Control Department think it necessary to take in this matter, they will be very tender of the welfare of the Agricultural Organisation Society and the co-operative societies.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

My Lords, I think it may be for your convenience if I make a rather general statement leading up to the Report to which Lord Selborne has just referred, and summarising in a brief manner the considerations which have actuated the Food Controller. Before dealing with the points raised by Lord Strachie, I should like to state that this Committee to which reference has been made was appointed in April, 1917, on the instruction of the Cabinet, by the President of the Board of Agriculture with the concurrence of the Food Controller. The terms of reference were—

To report on the production and distribution of milk, including the consideration of the steps which should be taken (1) to stimulate production; (2) to conserve milk supplies during any period of excess; (3) to provide for the special needs of children in urban centres; (4) to effect economies in the cost of production and distribution; (5) to organise supplies by administrative action so as to reach all sections of the community; and (6) other kindred subjects.

The reference clearly was very wide, and in June of last year the Committee issued a first interim Report, in which they dealt, in the main, with the disposal of surplus summer milk; with the utilisation of milk so as to preserve to the nation the maximum amount of food constituents obtainable; with the relation that the retail price of milk ought to bear to the prices of milk products, beef, and feeding-stuffs, and with farm labour.

In November the Committee issued a further interim Report dealing with the causes of possible milk shortage, the supply and distribution of feeding-stuffs, the price of milk, preferential distribution, the loss of milk through souring, the preservation of milk by Pasteurisation, and the establishment of county milk depots. On February 20 of this year, Major Astor, the Chairman of this Committee, wrote to Lord Rhondda as follows— With regard to the control of the wholesale distribution of milk, the Committee venture to forward certain resolutions bearing on this point for the consideration of the Ministry. The Committee feel that, as staple articles of food are rationed, people will tend to fall back on non-rationed foods to mike up for deficiencies or reductions in their accustomed diet. When meat, butter, and possibly bread are rationed, adults are likely to take more milk. This may not make much difference in the summer, but may have serious consequences next winter when milk is scarce. In view of the perishable nature of milk, the Committee suggest that the feasibility of rationing it on some basis of priority be considered carefully by that section of the Ministry which is specially experienced in rationing and its organisation. The Committee desire, however, to urge that even if milk is not rationed it is essential before next winter to have the milk that is available more evenly distributed between districts than is possible under existing conditions under which the trade is carried on; and therefore whether rationed or not its distribution should, in the opinion of the Committee, be controlled. The Committee consider the application of such control a matter of immediate urgency. The Resolutions mentioned in this letter were as follows:—

  1. "(1) That with a view to the establishment of depots on such a scale as would materially increase the available supply of milk and milk products next autumn and winter, the Government be urged to take over the entire responsibility for them.
  2. "(2) That the Government should through the Milk Section of the Ministry of Food take over the direct control of the wholesale collection, utilisation, and distribution of milk.
  3. "(3) That Local Food Control Committees should continue to be responsible for the control of the retail distribution, provided that where it was thought desirable or necessary in England and Wales the county borough council (or in London the London County Council) should be empowered to undertake the retail distribution or to give a renewable licence, subject to the Ministry's approval, to a private company for the monopoly of such retail distribution within their areas.
  4. "(4) That, as regards areas in England and Wales which are neither county borough councils, nor the London County Council, the Committee are not yet prepared to make recommendations for meeting the proposals contained in the latter part of the foregoing resolution. Nor are they in a position to make recommendations as to what authorities should deal with the matter in Scotland and Ireland. The Committee desire, to suggest that action on the recommendations contained in Resolutions (1) and (2) should not be delayed.
  5. "(5) That at initiation the Ministry of Food should authorise, by licensing the direct sale by certain producers to retailers or consumers."
To this a reply was sent stating that Lord Rhondda would be glad if the Committee would take into more detailed consideration the putting into operation of their general proposals, and would make such recommendations as they might consider advisable. They were asked to direct their special attention to the following points: (1) the need for establishing new depots and the geographical allocation of such depots; (2) the immediate steps necessary for the control of the collection, utilisation, and distribution of milk sold wholesale.

Accordingly, after consultation with the Ministry of Food, a sub-Committee of the Astor Committee was appointed to investigate these matters. It has recently reported to the Main Committee, and, in forwarding their resolutions, Major Astor states— We trust that the Government may now be prepared to give effect to the recommendations made by us in February to control the wholesale distribution of milk as a temporary measure in view of the further information which we are now able to offer them as to the methods by which these recommendations may be carried out. Major Astor continued— On the evidence now before us we are not prepared to agree to the desirability of purchases recommended in paragraph 8 of the Report of the sub-Committee— that is, the purchase of milk businesses— We believe that before coming to any decision as to the desirability of such a step more evidence is required. Major Astor also says that in the opinion of his Committee the Government should examine the possibility and advisability and also the conditions of compensating the interests concerned for any damage clone to them by control without actually purchasing such interests.

Mr. Clynes agrees with the views expressed by Major Astor's Committee, and the precise machinery for effecting the control of the wholesale milk trade is now being considered. It may be taken for granted that it will include the establishment of a Milk Clearing House at headquarters similar to the Margarine Clearing House which has been set up with satisfactory results; and that there will be divisional milk inspectors such as have been appointed by other Departments. The scheme has been submitted to the Consumers Council, who favour it, and the Agricultural Advisory Committee are being consulted about it. I understand that that Committee has unanimously approved the principle of control of the wholesale trade. It may, however, be assumed that what the producer most requires is an attractive price. There is no reason why the recommendations of the Astor Committee to the Food Controller should not be laid before Parliament. But it will probably be better to defer doing this until some definite indication can be given of the lines on which control will proceed.

The reasons which have led to this decision may be stated briefly as follows:—(a) The wasteful competition in the collection and handling of milk by superfluous depots or factories situated in the same area; (b) the diversion from areas that geographically should feed large towns; (c) the difficulty in properly adjusting the amounts of milk that are required (1) for the manufacture of milk products, (2) for human consumption; (d) the need for a proper organisation to balance supplies and to convert surplus milk, whether by the action of farmers' co-operative societies or by wholesalers such as the United Dairies or by the wholesale organisation attached to a federation of retailers; (e) the fact that large organisations, if uncontrolled, will result in a single seller and thereby place consumers in the hands of that seller to the possible detriment of quality, price, hours of delivery, etc.; (f) the need of educating the farmers in the production of cleaner milk, thereby making a more wholesome supply and preventing waste; (g) the damage to and loss of milk caused by delays in railways; insufficient treatment prior to transit, such as lack of cooling facilities; and general lack of organisation.

On the point about which Lord Strachie particularly asked, whether State control will continue after the war, it is very difficult to offer a prediction, but due consideration is certainly now being given to the question how in the enhanced value (if any) resulting from control the State should become beneficiary. For the moment the immediate problem before the Ministry of Food is the maintenance of the supply and the prevention of waste in transport and overlapping in distribution which prevail at present. The grant of an additional sum of 4d. per gallon to the producer during the summer months is a most important step towards securing production. There is no doubt that control of the wholesale trade will lead to very large economies, in handling, and in transport. It is acknowledged that the present retail distribution is in many cases wasteful and inefficient; but this is a local matter the remedy for which lies in the accordance by the municipalities of a greater share of responsibility. It is hoped that an extension of municipal activity in this direction will be developed.

I may add that it is proposed to publish this Report by Major Astor's Committee. It is already in proof, and I understand that it will be in your Lordships' hands very shortly, after which it will be much easier for you to realise the complexity of the subject of which I have been able to give only the barest outline.

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE

My Lords, I am sure that the House has listened with great interest to the reply which the noble Earl has given to my noble friend behind me. This subject, as he realises and as the House will realise, is one not merely of great importance but of considerable difficulty and complexity; because among all the subjects for control which the Food Controller's Department has felt itself obliged to undertake during the course of the war, there is none, I am certain, more delicate in its machinery than that of dairy farming with which my noble friend's Question is concerned. It is exceedingly easy, as I have no doubt the Department recognises, by taking a false step to discourage the production of milk; and it is one of the declared objects of the Committee which was appointed at the instance of the Board of Agriculture to stimulate that production.

But all the steps that have been taken in the past have, I think, not completely carried out that object. For instance, the Regulation of prices for milk—fixed, I have no doubt, after inquiry and with care—has not in all cases proved uniformly successful. There were one or two very abrupt changes made in the price of milk which in certain localities, by causing too rapid a fall from the winter price to the summer price, began locally to have a disastrous effect. The noble Earl mentioned the rise which has recently been granted in the summer prices of 4d. a gallon, very welcome because the prices as fixed did not appear in all cases to be adequate. Some of us assumed that the object of fixing a price for the six months from April to September on so low a scale as it was fixed, was a direct stimulus to the manufacture of cheese, because it was evident by a very simple sum, taking the average of the six months prices for milk and the controlled price of cheese, that a farmer could make 3d. a gallon more by turning his milk into cheese, allowing a quite moderate value for the by-product.

Now take the case of butter. There is a dead loss in the manufacture of butter as compared with that of selling milk, even allowing nothing for the cost of making the butter; and it has appeared to me for some time that it is an inevitable result of our general situation, and of our fanning situation in particular, that the making of butter is likely to become as purely a luxury of the well-to-do as the growing of fruit under glass. I think it may be assumed that no farmer or small holder who desires to make the most of his product, as a sensibly man does, will ever make butter again even at such a price as half-a-crown per lb.—which is, I fancy, the price of butter now—if he can possibly obtain a market for the raw product of milk, or if he can turn his milk into cheese.

It is to be noted that the noble Earl spoke of these proposed measures as being of a temporary character, and also that if was not recommended by the Committee that there should be any purchasing of milk businesses—that is to say, a direct taking over, as I understand, of the larger scale, or, indeed, the smaller scale, of distribution to the public. But it is proposed that there should be a Milk Clearing House—a clearing house of information, as I assume; the creation of an organisation by which the supplies of particular districts will be directed to those places to which the product can be most cheaply and conveniently sent. And it is proposed to set up an organisation of divisional inspectors, who, I take it, will exercise something of a control which will be more than advisory over the private organisations and societies within their districts. We shall await with interest details of these powers, because on them I venture to think a great deal of the success of the new scheme must necessarily depend.

I also heard with satisfaction that it was not proposed to discourage local co-operative societies. There is to be no attempt, as I understand, to take over locally the collection of supplies or to start local Government factories. It is desired, I understand, to work through existing organisations and to encourage the forma- tion of new societies. That is all to the good. What the noble Earl stated about the necessity for cleaner milk will naturally meet with the sympathies of your Lordships. As a matter of fact, I venture to think a great deal has already been done through the different milk-producing societies and various dairy associations in different districts to bring about a great improvement in this respect, and also in the practice of refrigerating and of generally fitting milk for the market. It is impossible to overrate the importance of the supply of a healthy sound article, particularly when that article is so largely used, as we know it is, in the bringing up of small children; but I hope that the Department will not allow the sanitary side of the proposals, important though they are, so to swamp the whole subject as to cause the more purely business considerations to be excluded. A trade is a very delicate plant, and there is, I venture to think, a real danger that if excessive alarm is created production may fall off instead of being stimulated as is desired. After all, it is an old saying that you can issue a mandamus to a person or a public authority to pull down a wall, but you cannot issue one to make them build a wall; in the same way you can make Regulations which will cause the supply of milk to be improved in quality, but you cannot by any Regulations that you can make, or any kind of encouragement that you can offer—except, as the noble Earl said, in the matter of price—absolutely compel the supply of this necessary product to be increased.

I was not altogether surprised, although we should have been glad had it been otherwise, that the noble Earl was not able to give a definite answer to the question of my noble friend Lord Strachie regarding the probable permanency of these Regulations. I am bound to say that if it was supposed that a somewhat rigid system of public control was going to be applied to the dairy industry all over the kingdom, I am afraid the result of that belief would be unfortunate. I think it would tend on the whole to make people go out of the industry rather than increase their liabilities in it. As my noble friend so truly said, and as has been said on many other occasions, for the purposes of the war people will stand almost anything, but they would I think, as Lord Selborne asserted, be unwilling to agree to a great revolution in a matter of this kind being now introduced in a form and with machinery which would make it impossible to turn to a freer system when peace is declared. Of course, when we speak in this matter and other matters of "the end of the war" it is quite evident it cannot be supposed that any Regulations of this kind can stop automatically whenever peace happens to come. The process is clearly bound to be gradual, but I have no doubt that the Government will be pressed to express formally some definite intention as to what their hopes and desires are in this matter of the dairy supply of the country.

LORD STRACHIE

My Lords, I do not want further to press this matter, and I am quite ready to withdraw my Motion, for though I must say I wish the noble Earl could give me fuller information I quite recognise that his position in this matter is similar to his position when answering the previous question—he is speaking from his brief and has not personal knowledge of this matter at all. Perhaps, however, he would clear up what seems to be a misunderstanding. I understood Lord Crewe to say that he thought the noble Earl said that the Government were not going to establish any milk depots, but the Astor Committee, whose recommendation was accepted by the Government, contemplate the establishment of milk depots on the ground which I quoted—namely, that private effort could not supply them. I think this is a matter that ought to be cleared up.

Then the noble Earl said that he could not give a reply as to State control after the war. As the noble Marquess said, this is a matter of great importance, because unless you make some definite pronouncement it will be very hard upon the small traders as well as the wholesale people, and it will have the effect of decreasing instead of increasing the supply of milk if you introduce unrest into the question. I had hoped that the noble Earl would say "Certainly there is not going to be State control after the war," all the more as I noticed that Mr. Clynes, who is, of course, in favour of State control for everything, said he was not certain how far he could speak for the Ministry of Food or for the Government. They were, he said, dealing with an urgent war necessity, and in his view should these great milk depots and the control of milk be well handled—and "State control of a most precious article of food seemed to be a very great advantage and benefit"—a public demand would grow up to maintain something like State control after the war. This shows that what evidently was in his mind, and what he was concerned over, was setting up control at these large depots and so stimulating the public, perhaps by low prices, so that they would clamour for State control in the future. I think it ought to be made clear, now or later on, whether or not the Government as a whole approve of these views of Mr. Clynes.

The noble Earl says there is to be compulsory collection. I would ask him, Will that mean that the farmer will be bound to send his milk to the depots controlled by the State, or will he be allowed, as at present, to sell his milk to the retailer? Of course, he will not be allowed to sell wholesale, because I imagine that the Government mean to abolish the wholesale man in future. The point is, Will he be allowed to sell direct to the retailer, large or small, in the town, and get the larger profit than he would get if he sends the milk to the depot?

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

My Lords, the last point alluded to is precisely one of those matters about which the Food Ministry is in communication, or will shortly be in communication, with the representatives of the producers. It is impossible for me to give any answer to his question except to say it is clearly a matter that cannot be ignored, and on which we may be quite certain the producers will have their full say. It is surely obviously to the interests both of the central authority responsible for the distribution of milk and of the producer that an amicable arrangement should be come to between the two parties.

I do not propose to criticise the technical observations of Lord Crewe. With regard to the question, again repeated by Lord Strachie, as to whether this projected control will end with the advent of peace, Lord Strachie put that inquiry before, and I said it really was impossible for me to give an answer. If you say it is going to end with peace, it means that the moment peace comes control must vanish and the public would starve for lack of milk. The change has to be gradually adjusted. Therefore it is perfectly impossible to say that control of milk, or of coal, or of wheat, or, indeed, of any other commodity, can automatically end with the war.

So far from thinking that such a statement is bound to discourage the producers, I really differ from Lord Strachie. The producer and the consumer also, as Lord Crewe says, will stand almost anything during the war, and I do not think that the price which has recently been increased by the authorities is now such as to justify any producer of milk in being discouraged. Uncertainty he has to face. He realises the importance of his product for public health, and for my part I believe he is doing his utmost to stimulate, certainly to maintain, it; but it would be very imprudent to give any pledge as to the exact date on which compulsory control will terminate. I really do not think we need be so apprehensive as the noble Lord suggests.

LORD STRACHIE

What about milk depots?

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

The statement I made was that a Milk Clearing House was to be established.

LORD STRACIHE

By the Government?

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

By the Ministry of Food—a clearing house similar to the Margarine Clearing House that already exists. Some milk depots have already been established, I understand, and it is presumably probable that more may have to be established.

LORD STRACHIE

I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.