HL Deb 25 July 1918 vol 30 cc1172-6

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Peel.)

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, before the House goes into Committee, I should like to put a question to my noble friend. I was unfortunately not able, through indisposition, to be present when he made his speech on the Second Reading, but I have had the great advantage of reading it. I should like to ask him, having regard to the great variety of powers which would be wielded by the committees under this Bill, and also the powers given under the Midwives Bill, whether he has considered how far this Bill reads with the Midwives Bill now passing through Parliament. He will remember that the Midwives Bill provides for a certain inspection under particular authorities, and we had a slight difference of opinion as to whether the authority should be the county council or the lesser local authority. The present Bill includes both authorities, and it might be that the intention of Parliament (and what, I hope, may be the ultimate intention of confining the power of the Midwives Bill to the major local authority) will be counteracted by this Bill which entrusts midwifery powers to the lesser councils. I do not know whether he has considered that point. If he has not I will not press him for an answer now, but I should be glad if he would consider it at his leisure and give me a reply during the next stage of the Bill.

LORD MUIR MACKENZIE

My Lords, I regret that I was not able to be here in proper time for saying anything on the Second Reading, because I should have liked to state how glad I was to see this Bill introduced. I happen to be connected with societies that are affected by and who feel a great interest in the Bill. The same point which has just been mentioned by the noble Marquess occurred to me. I did think there might be some inconsistency, or some confusion created, be- tween this Bill and the Midwives Bill, and I think it would be a great advantage if the noble Viscount would be good enough to consider, before the next stage, whether any such difficulty is likely to arise.

The part of the Bill which most interested me personally, and to which I wish to call attention is, if I understand, the intention of the Bill under the provisions of Clause 2, she provision to maintain all existing voluntary organisations as far as possible, or at least to utilise the services of those persons who have done very valuable work hitherto. It seems to me as if that was the intention of Clause 2, but I am not at all clear that the provisions, as detailed in the text, carry that out. It appears to me that you cannot, under the clause as it stands, actually hand over and delegate powers to one of the existing associations, such as the one with which I am connected and of which I am chairman—the Westminster Health Association. It would certainly be a great misfortune if the work of those engaged in these societies, especially the ladies, were to be thrown over and their services not utilised. I am not sure whether under the text of the Bill it will be possible to do that, and I should be very glad if the noble Viscount will reconsider the language of that clause.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The EARL of DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2:

Maternity and child welfare committees.

2.—(1) Every council in England and Wales exercising powers under this Act or under section two of the Notification of Births (Extension) Act, 1915, shall establish a maternity and child welfare committee, which may be an existing committee of the council or a sub-committee of an existing committee, and all matters relating to the exercise of the powers of the council under this Act or under the Notification of Births (Extension) Act, 1915 (except the power of raising a rate or of borrowing money), shall stand referred to such committee, and the council, before exorcising any such powers, shall, unless in their opinion the matter is urgent, receive and consider the report of the maternity and child welfare committee with respect to the matter in question, and the council may also delegate to the maternity and child welfare committee, with or without restrictions or conditions as they think fit, any of their powers under that Act or this Act, except the power of raising a rate or of borrowing money

(2) The council may appoint as members of the committee persons specially qualified by training or experience in subjects relating to health and maternity who are not members of the council, but not less than two-thirds of the members of every maternity and child welfare committee shall consist of members of the council, and at least two members of every such committee shall be women, and whore the duties of the maternity and child welfare committee are discharged by an existing committee or sub-committee any members appointed under this provision who are not members of the council shall act only in connection with maternity and child welfare.

(3) The committee established under this section shall take the place of any committee appointed under subsection (2) of section two of the Notification of Births (Extension) Act, 1915, and the provisions of that subsection relating to the exercise of powers by a committee shall cease to have effect.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY moved the addition to Clause 2 of a new subsection. The noble Marquess said: The object of this Amendment meets the observations, as far as I gathered them, of my noble friend who spoke just now. The real difficulty in the administration of all these local Acts is to adjust properly the limits of the jurisdiction of the county councils and the lesser local authorities. There has been a tendency at one time to put everything in the power of the district councils, and at another time the tendency has been to put the power into the hands of the county councils. Those are the two different schools of thought. Personally, so far as I am entitled to have an opinion on the subject, I belong to the second school of thought. I believe that the great line of progress in the reform and development of local government is to use the larger local authorities. They carry, I think much greater authority than the lesser local authorities, and they are also not exposed to the same tendencies to action which is not altogether disinterested which beset the small local authorities. I am very glad, therefore, to find that in this Bill the county council is recognised. I wish it were more recognised.

This Bill is a compromise, or rather the principal Act which it amends is a compromise, under which both local authorities are recognised, and it depends upon very little more than a matter of chance which local authority is to undertake the work of the principal Act of which the present Bill is a development. It is an important matter, because although this is only in one sense a development, it is a very large development of the principal Act. As the noble Viscount said upon the second reading, and as I have had occasion to remind your Lordships, the powers entrusted to the committee of the county council or district council, as the case may be, are very extensive. I am in favour of giving authority to the greater local bodies, but there is a position which the lesser local opinion ought to occupy. It ought not to be ignored. Control ought to be with the greater local authority, but the advice and co-operation of smaller local opinion ought to be maintained under the working of the principal Act. At the present moment this is secured by means of sub-committees, and in one case I know, the case of my own county, those sub-committees are used with great effect and very successfully. They assist very much in the working of the principal Act, but the effect of the clause as it stands will be to abolish them.

Clause 2 prescribes that on any committee working under this clause two-thirds of its members must be members of the council which appoints the committee. It may be the county council, or it may be the district council. All that my Amendment seeks to do is to enable sub-committees to be established in every case, and that those subcommittees should be freely appointed and not limited by this two-thirds provision. If that be done the difficulties to which I have called attention to-day will he got over. I do not think from what I understand—and I hope it is the case—that the Local Government Board have any objection to this Amendment. I have no desire to press it upon the Government if they do not wish to accept it, but I understand that the Local Government Board do not object, and I hope that my noble friend will signify as much in a moment.

The only other observation that I have to make is that the drafting of the Amendment is taken from the Education Act of 1902. I therefore imagine that it is workable. There are sub-committees in the schedule of the Education Act which are appointed exactly in the words of the Amendment which I have ventured to put on the Paper.

Amendment moved—

Clause 2, page 2, after line 22, insert as a new subsection: (4) A Committee established under this section may subject to any directions of the council appoint such and so many sub-committees consisting either wholly or partly of members of the Committee, as the Committee thinks fit."—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

VISCOUNT PEEL

Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to say, before I deal with the Amendment, one word in reply to the question which the noble Marquess put? The point was as to the powers that may be exercised by this committee with reference to midwives under the powers of the Midwives Bill as it is at present. Perhaps the noble Marquess will allow me to give him a not very definite answer on the point, for this reason. The question of who is going to exercise those powers is at present under consideration of the Committee which is dealing with the question of the powers of the Health Ministry, and as the matter is so much under consideration, and has not been definitely decided, perhaps the noble Marquess will excuse me from giving a reply at the present moment.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

What Committee of the Health Ministry?

VISCOUNT PEEL

By a Committee of the Government to which the question as to what powers should be dealt with by the Local Government Board and what should not be has been referred. As regards the Amendment, which the noble Marquess has taken from the Act of 1902, the general intention no doubt is to assist the flexibility and elasticity in which these committees work, and I have no doubt this will be valuable in many counties, especially no doubt in the county he represents, and there is no objection on the part of the Local Government Board to accept this Amendment. I should also like to say, as regards these larger and smaller authorities, that the Local Government Board generally would rather lean towards schemes being made by the larger local authorities; but in some cases, where you have such close and intimate knowledge as is required by local conditions, the smaller authorities might very usefully deal with some of these powers.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.