COAL MIXES CONTROL AGREEMENTM (CONFIRMATION) BILL. (Hansard, 16 January 1918)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR (who was indistinctly heard)
My Lords, in moving the Third Reading of this Bill there are two points on which I wish to make observation. The first is an extremely small one. It was hoped that the Bill would pass before the Christmas recess, but as that was lot possible the title that stands in the Bill is inappropriate. It is not a Bill of 1917 but of 1918. I have made inquiries and am told it is not necessary to move an Amendment, but it is proposed to set the matter right in the printing of the Bill.
The other point has reference to what took place on the last occasion, when the noble Earl, Lord Plymouth, proposed certain Amendments. He adverted to what had been said by the Solicitor-General in the House of Commons as to considering whether my words could be added. I stated that we had considered the matter, and that no norm of words had been devised which would meet the case. I stated also in broad outline what the nature of a possible Amendment would be; and after that debate we put into shape that Amendment and communicated with my noble friend or the purpose of seeing whether it met with his approval and the approval of those with whom he was co-operating in this latter. The proposal made on behalf If the Government is in these words. At he end of the first clause, in the fourth subsection, the proviso runs as follows— Provided that nothing in this Act shall extend to apply the terms of the said Agreement to the owners of any coal mine in respect of coke ovens or by-product plant belonging to them. and then we propose, if acceptable to my noble friend, to add the words— …or of any distinct and independent [...]ade or industry which is not ancillary to the [...]lliery portion of the undertaking, the books [...]ating whereto were in the standard period kept and can in the period of control be kept [...]such a manner that the capital invested and the profits earned in respect of such distinct and independent trade or industry can be readily [...]certained. 666 Your Lordships will observe that in the Bill the Agreement relates to the "undertaking of the owner of a coal mine," and it is absolutely essential that there should be control of what is ancillary to the coal mine, and there must, of course, be control of the undertaking. The "undertaking" comprises not merely what is done in the mine, but also in the sale direct to the customers. The proposal which I have indicated goes as far as the Government feel that it is possible for them to go without compromising the efficiency of the Bill.
The position is that this proposal was not acceptable to some of the minority who objected to the Agreement, and accordingly as it appeared that it would not be accepted I did not put it down. If the noble Earl will now accept it, I will take it as a substitute instead of his first Amendment. I have examined the Amendment now standing in his name, and I am sorry to say I cannot accept it for reasons similar to those which apply to the Amendment moved on the previous occasion by the noble Earl. If he will accept what I have road out—for that offer is still open—I am perfectly ready that it shall be substituted. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a Third time.

THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH (who was indistinctly heard)
My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack for the offer he has now made, but which I am quite unable to accept. As he has told your Lordships, he did not put it on the Paper because he understood that those with whom I was working in co-operation in this matter did not think that the Amendment in any way carried out what was regarded to be the undertaking of the Government in another place, and that in some way it widened instead of elucidated the clause as it now stands in the Bill. So far as my friends are concerned, I am afraid this is no solution. I had hoped that in the Amendment which I put down I had met some of the objections which the noble and learned Lord took to the clause which I moved in Committee. He mentioned the matters of private wagons and ponies, and I understand that these things might be excluded in my clause when they were worked with a coal mine. He has told your Lordships that the Government cannot accept my Amend- 667 ment. I regret it very much, for I think a misconception has occurred. In the House of Commons the Solicitor-General, in answering General Hickman's Amendment, said that this matter was really not worthy of prolonged discussion. That was taken to mean that it was not of great moment whether the Amendment was accepted or not. Then he went on to say— Personally I do not like the words suggested, but if the hon. and gallant gentleman will leave the matter till a later stage we will endeavour to find such words… that is, such words as would carry out the policy common to every one concerned. I must state again that this was taken by my friends in the House of Commons to mean that the Government practically accepted that Amendment and that other words might be found to carry it out. The Amendment was not pressed, and no further opposition was made to the Third Reading. Whether the Government agree with me or not, I am bound to say that there is a feeling amongst my friends that an undertaking distinctly given has not been carried out. In the circumstances it is useless for me to move the Amendment which I have on the Paper, as it has not been accepted by the noble and learned Lord, but I cannot see that the words that he proposes will meet the objections I have made.

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR
I should like to say one word with regard to what the noble Earl has said. The Solicitor-General never undertook to introduce any words at all. All he said was that he would consider the form of words, and it has been considered most carefully.

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR
I thank the noble Earl for his courtesy in seeing me in reference to the second Amendment. It is not possible to accept it, because it really is a variation of the Agreement. I think the noble Earl will recognise that it was perfectly impossible for the Government to take any other course.

THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH
I would ask the noble and learned Lord whether he could accept a clause (after Clause 6) in these terms— Payments on account of the sums falling to be paid under Clause 4 of the said Agreement shall be made at such times and in such amounts as may be agreed upon by the Controller. In a word, the object of this Amendment is one with which the noble and learned Lord expressed some sympathy in the Committee stage. It is that payments, when they are due, should not be withheld unreasonably.

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR
The Agreement which, has been arrived at makes provision for payments to be made, and no Parliamentary sanction is required for that purpose, As I said before, it is impossible to agree to the proposition for monthly payments, and this Amendment is wholly unnecessary. Payments on account are provided for, in Clause 4 of the Agreement, at such times and in such manner as may be agreed upon by the Controller. No Parliamentary sanction is wanted for that. The payment on account is wholly a matter of agreement. I hope the noble Earl will not move this Amendment.

THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH
I will not move it. I hope it may be understood—and I think I may take it as being under- 669 stood from what the noble and learned Lord has said—that these payments should not be withheld unreasonably.

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR
As far as I remember, I assured the noble Earl at an earlier stage of the Bill that in this matter the Controller would act reasonably. But it is a matter that clearly must be left so arrangement.

THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH
There is one other proposal I want to put before your Lordships House, and that is whether my last Amendment is one which the noble and learned Lord would consider reasonable. The Amendment is to insert the following new clause— Nothing omitted to be done before the passing of this Act or within ninety days thereafter shall prejudice the right of any coal-owner to apply for a substituted standard under the said Agreement. My only object in moving this is to prevent those coal-owners who have been drawn into this Agreement against their will losing all the time since the date of the Agreement, when it might be said they should apply for a substituted standard, but that it should date from the passing of the Bill.

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR
This is very like an Amendment moved in Committee which I then objected to, stating the grounds. The coal-owner has a right to apply in this connection under Clause 8, which was agreed to by arrangement and embodied in the Schedule, and I cannot see that anything of this kind is necessary. If these words are inserted it would be extremely difficult to say how far they should go. I am sorry to appear so ungracious to the noble Earl, but we must take into account the way in which the Act would work and have regard to that, rather than to suggestions which would make it unworkable, however well-intentioned they are.

THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH
I hope the House will understand that I have no desire to put any obstruction in the way of carrying out any necessary scheme of agreement which has been arrived at, and certainly I have no desire to say any more after the remarks of the noble and learned Lord.

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR
I am sure the whole House will accept what has been said by the noble Earl, and I am sure there has been no trace of any desire on his part to obstruct the Government in the matter.