HL Deb 05 August 1918 vol 31 cc489-94

House in Committee (according to Order).

[The Earl of DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1 agreed to.

LORD TENTERDEN moved, after Clause 1, to insert as a new clause: "A person of enemy nationality shall not start a new business or factory or obtain control of such a business or factory or of any raw materials without obtaining a licence from the Board of Trade, and the Board may, if they think fit, at any time revoke any such licence."

The noble Lord said: This is a clause which I think ought to be inserted in this Bill as a preventive against enemy propaganda during peace time, upon which considerable stress was laid by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor at the time of the Second Reading of the British Nationality and Status of Aliens Bill. I then moved an Amendment to that Bill, and he submitted that this was an Amendment which ought rather to be included in this Bill than in that. The preamble of this Bill describes it as "an Act to amend the enactments relating to Trading with the Enemy, and to extend temporarily certain of those enactments to the carrying on of banking business after the termination of the present war." This shows in itself the temporary nature of the measure. I think we have to look ahead, and that view, as I say, was taken by the Lord Chancellor and was backed up by no less a person than Lord Parmoor, one of the great pillars of this House, and I think met with the approval of the House generally. We have to look not to what the enemy has done or is doing, but to what he may do to bring about a second edition of what we have seen in the past. There is no doubt that if the enemy is left to his own devices we shall have a repetition of everything over again, and I do not think it is fair to those who are fighting and have fought for the country that we should not now take the wise precaution of providing against a recurrence of this terrible war.

This is not restriction or a prohibition that I am placing upon enemies in starting businesses, or controlling businesses or factories or raw materials in this country, but it is simply establishing a record at the Board of Trade of those enemy subjects who control businesses, factories, and raw materials. With regard to the businesses, take insurance companies and banking institutions. Those, I know, are to some extent provided for here, but only temporarily. I want this placed on the Statute Book in order to establish beyond all dispute a safeguard against alien propaganda work in the future. These insurance companies, banking institutions, and other businesses have been the centres of enemy propaganda, and centres for spying and for the undoing of this country, as we have witnessed to our detriment during the last three or four years. We have it in our power to provide against a recurrence of it, and this is a particularly British measure which I am certain will meet with the support of your Lordships. With regard to raw materials there is not a word in this Bill about the control of raw materials, though we know that during the war efforts were made and successfully made by the enemy to control the raw materials without which war could not be conducted. The base metals in Australia were absolutely subjected to the Metall-Gesellschaft and its allied branches, which sought to be the means of our undoing. The Prime Minister of Australia, Mr. Hughes, was clever enough in time to rectify this, yet he has not been able to put everything right, for we still know that those who are trading under English names in the metal business are really our enemies, and that some control is necessary over base metals and over all raw materials, so that we shall know that in future that in regard to our factories we are not in the hands of the enemy as we have been before

I am no great friend of the present Government or of any other Government, for I have put forward and been the pioneer of measures which they did not favour, and have fought the questions of pensions for soldiers and sailors, the question of woman suffrage, the question of munitions and the question of aircraft which is now going to bring about victory. I cannot say, therefore, that I am persona grata with any Government, but I appeal very strongly to the good sense and honour and patriotism of members of this House to include this Amendment in the Bill.

Amendment moved— After Clause 1, insert as a new clause:

Prohibition on the starting of new businesses, &c., by aliens.

". A person of enemy nationality shall not start a new business or factory or obtain control of such a business or factory or of any raw materials without obtaining a licence from the Board of Trade, and the Board may, if they think fit, at any time revoke any such licence."—(Lord Tenterden.)

LORD SOMERLEYTON

May I remind your Lordships that under legislation now passing through Parliament enemy aliens in this country of whatever occupation will be under complete control. The form of the Amendment would apparently limit its operation to the period of the war, but during the war there is already full power to deal with enemy businesses, and there is very extensive control over raw materials. If the Amendment is intended to apply after the war its effect would be to prevent the sale of any material not completely manufactured to any person who is a subject of a State with which we are now at war, however insignificant the amount or unimportant the material. No distinction is drawn in the Amendment between raw materials which are of importance as being the basis of essential industries and those which are not of any material importance. To give effect to the Amendment an elaborate licensing scheme will have to be set up to supervise the sales of a large number of commodities where no real need for such control exists. The steps necessary to safeguard raw materials of an essential character are at present being examined in consultation with the Dominion Governments. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will not press this Amendment to a Division at the present time. Under legislation now passing all subjects of enemy nationality in this country will be under complete control, and I submit therefore that this Amendment is not necessary at present.

LORD TENTERDEN

I have listened with interest to the noble Lord's request not to press the Amendment because it is contrary to what is included in the Bill, but there is nothing of the nature of my Amendment in this Bill, and therefore I propose to press it to a Division.

LORD BERESFORD

I do not think that my noble friend has met the point of Lord Tenterden, whose Amendment is "shall not start a new business or factory." Surely the Government ought to agree to that. According to what Lord Somerleyton has said, you are going to allow the Germans again to start a new business or factory. The objections which the noble Lord who replied for the Government raised do not meet the point of the Amendment, and if my noble friend Lord Tenterden goes to a Division I shall certainly support him.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (The EARL of CRAWFORD)

I hope that the noble and gallant Admiral will read the text of the new clause before he settles to divide. Lord Tenterden proposes that no factory shall be started or that any alien shall obtain control of any raw material.

LORD BERESFORD

Enemy nationality—not any alien.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

Yes, enemy nationality.

LORD BERESFORD

That is not any alien.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

The noble Lord indicated that the object of this Amendment was to prevent enemy aliens from starting new businesses. It goes a good deal further than that, because it says that no enemy alien shall buy raw material from any point within the British Empire.

LORD TENTERDEN

Obtain control.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

If I buy raw material I obtain control of it; and, as this Amendment stands, it includes the Armenians, for instance, in whom my noble friend is so interested, and it would mean that no Armenian could buy a bale of cloth or wool or anything in the shape of raw material from this Empire. I submit that, even if that be desirable, this is not the stage at which we should lay down such a tremendously far-reaching rule until we have the assent if not the authority, of the Dominions who are very

Remaining clauses agreed to

much concerned in anything of so wide a character.

LORD TENTERDEN

The Armenians are our friends, not our enemies.

LORD BERESFORD

It is qualified by "without obtaining a licence from the Board of Trade."

LORD TENTERDEN

Exactly so.

LORD BERESFORD

There are many people whom we do not want to start factories and businesses. This Amendment may go too far, but my noble friend Lord Crawford must agree that we do not want a German to start a new factory. Further, the Amendment is qualified, because the man has to get a licence from the Board of Trade; so that we are trusting our own Government.

LORD TENTERDEN

That is exactly the point. We are not saying that the enemy alien cannot buy raw materials, that would be absurd. What we are saying is that they must not get control of such raw material without getting a licence from the Board of Trade. I consider that enemy aliens have had a good innings, and that we have suffered in consequence. This ought to be treated as a concession by the Government. Surely we are running this Empire for the benefit of the British people within it and not for the benefit of the Germans, or the Austrians or the Turks.

On Question, whether the proposed new clause shall be here inserted—Their Lordships divided:—Contents, 4; Not-Contents, 34.

CONTENTS.
Newcastle, D. Beresford of Metemmeh, L. [Teller.] Sydenham, L.
Tenterden, L. [Teller.]
NOT-CONTENTS
Canterbury, L. Abp. Farquhar, V. (L. Steward). Faringdon, L.
Finlay, L. (L. Chancellor.) Sandhurst, V. (L. Chamberlain.) Gainford, L.
Curzon of Kedleston, E. (L. President.) Churchill, V. Hindlip, L.
Cowdray, V. Hylton, L.
Wigan, L. (E. Crawford.) (L. Privy Seal.) Haldane, V. Lee of Fareham, L.
St. Davids, V. Newton, L.
Pontypridd, L.
Crewe, M. Ashton of Hyde, L. Queenborough, L.
Lansdowne, M. Clinton, L. Ranksborough, L.
Colebrooke, L. Roundway, L.
Grey, E. Desborough, L. Somerleyton, L. [Teller.]
Lytton, E Elphinstone, L. Stanmore, L. [Teller.]
Stanhope, E. Emmott, L. Strachie, L.

Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

Bill reported without amendment.

Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Bill read 3a and passed.