Lords Sitting of 24 April 1918

CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
VISCOUNT SANDHURST: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to amend the Criminal Law Amendment Acts, 1885 to 1912, and to move that it he read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Viscount Sandhurst.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

COINAGE (DECIMAL SYSTEM) BILL. [H.L.]
LORD SOUTHWARK: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to amend the Coinage Acts, 1870 and 1891, and to sanction a decimal system of coinage; and I move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Southwark.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

ADMIRALTY CONTRACTS.
LORD BALFOUR or BURLEIGH LORD BALFOUR or BURLEIGH had the following Question on the Paper—
To ask whether the Government will state the terms of the contract under which large works are being carried out for the Admiralty or any other Department at Throsk, in Stirlingshire; and if so, whether the remuneration is to be at the rate of 5 per cent. on the expenditure, and what supervision on behalf of Government is being exercised as to the cost of the work; and whether it is not the fact that special inducements for Sunday labour at double rates of pay are being promiscuously offered to any one who will accept it, whether otherwise in the employment of the contractor or not.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, before actually asking the Question standing in my name I should like to explain to the House that I have postponed the Question which I had put down in relation to another matter. Lord Rothermere is unable to be
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in London this week owing to being less well than usual, and he has asked me to put that subject off until next week—a request with which, of course, any one of your Lordships would comply.
I may say that since I put down the Question printed upon the Paper to-day I have been told—I do not attach more credence to it than necessary—that the terms of the contract are 10 per cent. on the expenditure, and not 5 per cent., to the contractor. We know locally that the contractor is Sir John Jackson, who has had considerable experience in thee matters. I have no doubt that he makes the best bargain he can for himself, and the fact that there have been question, affecting his contracts in other matters does not give those of us who are locally-interested in Throsk any greater confidence in this contract. It is obvious, whether the amount be 5 per cent. or 10 per cent., that the payment of a percentage is a premium upon extravagance, because the more the contractor spends the more he gets for himself. Therefore it is in my opinion detrimental to the public interest that any contracts should be made on terms of this kind, or on any terms like them.
I am told—and I have done my best to verify it—that many of the workmen are taken to the place of their work by means of a two hours' journey, an hour each way, and that they are paid during the whole of the time that they are in the train. The contractor, I am informed, also pays the expense of the train. It will be rather interesting to know whether the contractor gets 5 per cent. on the expenditure which he pays to the railway company for the train. The train takes the men over a route some fourteen or sixteen miles in length, but there is a shorter route across the old Forth Bridge which would take them a distance of only about a mile and a half. There may be some reason for not taking them by that route, but trains run across the bridge five or six times a day direct from Alloa, and I sec no reason why the train conveying these workmen should go by way of Stirling, a distance of fourteen or fifteen miles and occupying something like an hour each way. The men are paid by the hour; therefore if they are paid 10½d. an hour for these two hours in the train, the cost, instead of being 10½d. an hour for the nine hours day, works out at about 1s. 2d. an hour.
Turning to the question of Sunday labour, it scents to me that one of the worst aspects of this transaction is that the longer and the more the men work on Sunday the greater is the expenditure incurred. I understand that this Sunday labour is not confined to the people who are in the contractor's own employment, but that men are taken who are in the employment during the rest of the week of other local contractors, and that it is really a very insidious form of bribery. Take, for instance, the case of carpenters and joiners employed on ship production. If a man has done a good week's work from Monday to Saturday in ship production at Alloa, and gets an offer to work elsewhere on Sunday and is paid 24 s. for a single day's work, it is rather difficult for him to resist the temptation. Consequently the shipbuilders by whom these men are employed during the rest of the week have to suffer a reaction in this respect, that the men are exhausted by the work they do elsewhere on Sunday and are unable to do a full day's work on the Monday. Upon that point I have a letter written by a man whom I have known for forty years and who is employed on a contract for a shipbuilding yard which is being constructed at express speed to try and counteract the shipping shortage. The people for whom he has the contract wrote to him complaining that he was not getting on fast enough with the work, and this is what he wrote to them in reply—
"With reference to your complaint to-day about the slow progress I am making with putting in the foundations at your works, I am sorry to say that owing to the great demand for labouring men and the inducements held out to them from other sources I have been unable to keep my regular squad together. You are no doubt aware that Sir John Jackson has started on the other side of the Forth, almost opposite Alloa, and wants 1,000 men, and to get them is paying eleven hours per day for nine hours work, and that for work which to all appearances could stand at present and allow the shipbuilding yard work to get on, which is far more urgent. There is an extra demand on to-day, and I shall be glad to be advised what to do."
Since I came into the House I have received another letter from the manager of a coal company close to this district, in which he says—
"We may say that we have suffered very much indeed from surface workers leaving our colliery and going to Throsk, so much so that we are almost unable to continue work at the pit. The men at Throsk are getting 2s. a day more than we can pay them, and their railway fare is paid from Alloa and Stirling. For Sunday work it is
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reported they get double pay, and it is common report that the men say it is the softest job they have ever had."
I do not understand what this work is for. Perhaps the noble Earl who represents the Admiralty can tell us. It is a mystery to me. I have known the district all my life. The place where the work is going on is above the old Forth Bridge, which can only be opened at high tide, and only then for a very short period, so that any communication to take away anything made at this place to the east, down the Forth, by a vessel of any size cannot occur. At this place the contractor is driving railways, roads, and bridges through some of the finest arable land in Scotland, and I cannot understand what the object of this is, for no big ship and no destroyer can possibly come there. Stores and ammunition would have to be sent from the place—if it is a place for storing ammunition—by barges to a more convenient centre before war vessels could take them on board. I understand, further, that the contract is to last for five years, so that it cannot be war work; and by that tune I hope, whatever may happen to us, that we shall have won the war. It seems to me that there is a strong case for some explanation, not only of the terms of the contract, but of the whole object of the undertaking, and I trust that the noble Earl who represents the Admiralty in this House will be able to give us some satisfaction on these points.
THE ADDITIONAL PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY of THE ADMIRALTY (THE EARL OF LYTTON): My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord for affording me an opportunity of giving an explanation of this contract. The facts regarding it are substantially as stated by the noble Lord in his Question, but in describing them he has, I think, given an implication of negligence or extravagance on the part of the Admiralty which I feel sure he will be ready to admit, when he hears my explanation, is not justified by the facts.
First of all, the noble Lord asked me what is the object of the work. I was not prepared for all the criticisms which he brought forward. I endeavoured to inform myself upon the points which the noble Lord placed upon the Paper. On some of the matters for which I was not prepared I am unable to answer him; but the object of the work is to create a sub-depot to

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Crombie, and it is required for magazines and naval stores. I am not prepared at the moment to justify the choice of that place, but the noble Lord may rest assured that it would not have been selected, nor would the work have been allowed to be undertaken, unless the work was considered to be of first-class urgency and importance.
The terms of the contract which Sir John Jackson, Limited, are carrying out for the Admiralty at this place near Throsk are quite usual for Government work at the present time. The work is estimated to cost £350,000. The contractor is to receive for his profit 5 per cent. of the total cost of the work; the figure is quite correctly stated in the Question. It is 5 per cent. and not 10 per cent., although I may say that 10 per cent. is the usual manufacturers' profit for work of this kind. In addition, the contractor receives l½ per cent. for his London office expenses.
Then the noble Lord asks what supervision on the part of the Government is being exercised. The work is being supervised by the superintendent civil engineer at Rosyth. I may explain that a percentage on the cost of the work, plus a further percentage for establishment charges, is the almost invariable practice in Government contracts at the present time. I quite agree with the noble Lord that it is a bad principle, and that it necessarily tends more to extravagance than would an estimate for the total cost of the work. But the abnormal conditions of labour and cost of material at the present time make it quite impossible to obtain of any contractor a fixed price for the carrying out of work of this kind. It is very often necessary to submit to competitive tender the percentage which the manufacturer is to receive upon the cost of the work. In this case the rate of percentage is below the average, and the supervision of the civil engineer who represents the Admiralty is a protection against unnecessary cost.
I am unable to tell the noble Lord whether or not his statement about the time spent by the workmen in the train going to and returning from their work is correct. I will make inquiries upon it, but that is a point which the superintendent civil engineer would necessarily scrutinise in our interests. If it is true it would, imagine, be because it is impossible to get workmen resident on the spot or close at
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hand. I am afraid I cannot give more information on that point.
As regards Sunday labour, this has recently been stopped all over the country by a decision of the Cabinet. It used to be very prevalent, and owing to the double rate of pay always given for Sunday labour it was naturally very popular with the work-people. The result was that contractors used to advertise freely that their men were employed upon Sunday labour, and it became almost impossible for any contractor who did not work on Sunday to obtain labour to carry out his work. I quite agree with the noble Lord that it was a thoroughly unsatisfactory system, and no one suffered more rom it than we did at the Admiralty. I am glad to say that this practice has now been stopped. No Sunday work is allowed except in special cases where it is necessary in order to enable the labour of the weekdays to be carried on without interruption—I mean upon such work as the blowing out of boilers, the shifting of railway lines, or altering water services; work which, if it were not done on the Sunday, would hold up the work on the weekdays. In this particular case special permission was given to work on three Sundays only, April 7, 14, and 21, within the terms of the Cabinet decision, to enable the contractor to construct a bridge over the stream to bring his material on to the site. Last Sunday was the final day on which Sunday labour was permitted, and there will be no more Sunday work until the completion of the contract. Of course, on these three Sundays the usual rate of extra pay for Sundays was paid.
As I have explained, the contract is in a perfectly usual form; we have nothing either to conceal or to apologise for in connection with it, and I hope that the noble Lord will see that it is not really deserving of the censure which I think he was inclined to direct to it.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: Will the noble Earl ascertain whether the 5 per cent. is or is not actually paid on the cost of the railway journey, and why the railway journey is taken fourteen to sixteen miles round, which I know to be a fact, when there is a railway of 1½ miles, over which I have gone hundreds of times myself, from the main point of population to the site of the works. Of course, I must not criticise, because I am quite sure the Admiralty

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would never have selected the site unless they had examined it and thought over it; but it does seem to us locally an extraordinary thing that a site for storage should be put definitely above a bridge which closes the whole traffic on the river except twice a day at high tide.
THE EARL OF LYTTON: I will inform myself with regard to those points, and communicate with the noble Lord.

PRISONERS OF WAR.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether they are now able to make any statement with reference to the Agreement relating to prisoners of war concluded between British and Turkish delegates at Berne in December last.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, the whole country for many months past has been in a state of special anxiety as to the fate of British prisoners of war in the hands of the Turks. Greatly concerned as public opinion has been about the fate of all our prisoners of war at one time or another, we have naturally been more concerned about those in Turkey than those elsewhere—in the first place, because we knew so little authoritatively about their condition; and, in the second place, because we thought that under the peculiar réime of the Turks their lot would be likely to be a specially hard one.
It is common knowledge that the noble Lord to whom I address this Question has been in charge of this matter at the Foreign Office for a long time past. It is also known that he has given to this task the utmost devotion and care. He was sent by His Majesty's Government to Switzerland at the close of last year to try and complete negotiations with the Turks for the release of these prisoners, who include among their number, I would remind your Lordships, the remains of that magnificient Division that had to capitulate at Kut. I shall be very glad if my noble friend can tell us whether the devoted work which he gave to this matter in Switzerland at the close of last year has borne the fruit which we all hope, or whether the matter is not yet concluded. This is a question which not only concerns the whole nation, as I have said, but on his answer are banging the hopes of the relatives of these unfortunate men.
THE ASSISTANT UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD NEWTON): My Lords, as my noble friend and the House have no doubt observed, the Agreement of which he speaks has, I am happy to say, just been ratified.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Hear, hear.
LORD NEWTON: And, as my noble friend was good enough to make some complimentary observations with regard to my individual services, I should like to say that I am already sufficiently accustomed to public life not to expect any gratitude from any particular quarter; but at the same time I do not think that there has ever been so much unjust abuse lavished upon myself and the other persons concerned as has been the case over this question of prisoners in Turkey. I do not think that the ordinary person realises in the least that the difficulties attending prisoner questions in Turkey are infinitely greater than those which surround similar questions in Germany. In the first place, the Turks, like the Germans, had no desire to exchange any prisoners at all. They were in all probability extremely proud of being in a position to hold European captives. These prisoners were in addition to that, probably a source of profit to them; and as regards their own people, whom we held in very much greater numbers, they were indifferent as regards their condition, knowing, of course, that they were well treated. There was, in fact, only one individual in whom they have ever shown the slightest interest. As a matter of fact, the battle—if I may so call it—regarding the exchanges has been largely fought round this one personage; and the noble Earl will not be surprised to learn that as this individual was the only valuable asset we possessed we were not likely to let him go without a thoroughly satisfactory equivalent.
Now, as regards the fruitless efforts which His Majesty's Government continually made to secure the exchange of these prisoners and the amelioration of their surroundings, I may say without exaggeration that I think we corresponded with the Turkish Government for something like a year with no effect being produced. Then I persuaded the War Cabinet to allow me to enter into direct communication with the Turkish delegates in Switzerland. It took the Turks five months to assent to a

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meeting, and when I eventually proceeded to Berne I spent five weeks arguing and haggling with these representatives before we were able to arrive at an Agreement. An Agreement having been arrived at and I having been personally assured by these representatives that ratification would be only a question of a few hours, no less than four months have elapsed since that took place. This will give the House some indication of the laboriousness of effecting any satisfactory arrangement with these people.
I do not wish to impute any particular blame to the Turkish delegates whom I met with regard to this excessive delay. I honestly think that they were well disposed, and that, so far as it lay within their power, they were anxious to improve the circumstances of their captives. But I feel bound to add that they were not particularly well equipped for their task; because unfortunately their information regarding the question was of a very rudimentary and imperfect character. For instance, I was never able to obtain from these gentlemen any precise figures as to the number of captives they held. Whenever I asked how many British prisoners there were in their hands, they would reply that they thought there were about 10,000. It really would not have surprised me in the least if they had answered, with Oriental imagery, that the captives were as numerous as the sands on the seashore, or the leaves of the forest. It was evident that they were completely ignorant as to the real figures. Our own calculation is that there are something like 8,000 prisoners in Turkey altogether. Then they suffered from the disability of being without instructions; they were in the habit of mislaying or losing important documents which were submitted to them; and when we complained of irregularities—for instance, with regard to the delivery of parcels or with regard to correspondence—their reply was, "Oh, we are very sorry, but we are in just as had a case ourselves; our correspondence is equally deficient; unfortunately that is one of the things which we must all be expected to bear."
As an example of their ingenuousness, I cannot help drawing attention to one particular circumstance. The noble Earl will observe when he reads the text of the Agreement that there is a paragraph expressing the hope that the British prisoner camps in future will be surrounded by plain wire instead of barbed wire. As people who are acquainted with prisoner
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questions are aware, a new disease has been invented known as "barbed wire disease." It is, of course, only a paraphrase for nervous breakdown; but these Turkish gentlemen were evidently under the impression that "barbed wire disease" was communicated by the points of the barbed wire, possibly by the prisoners rubbing themselves against them and so contracting the malady. Therefore they ask that special provision shall be made under which in future prisoners should be retained within plain instead of barbed wire. I presume that this is not the first occasion upon which an unconscious joke has appeared in an international document. At all events, I did not think it worth while to make any alteration with regard to this particular matter.
To turn now to the Agreement itself. In view of the alarming reports which had reached this country from time to time respecting the condition of our men—a condition which I am inclined to think was due not so much to systematic cruelty as to incapacity, to carelessness, and to the economic condition of the country—in view of this it was obviously desirable to aim at two main objects, namely, the exchange of as many prisoners as possible and the securing of inspection of camps by the protecting Legation, the Dutch Legation. With regard to exchanges, as my noble friend is aware, His Majesty's Government do not countenance the exchange of able-bodied combatants; and, as he is also aware, the system by which invalids are selected for exchange necessitates visits by Dutch Commissions and by Swiss Commissions, and is altogether a very laborious and complicated procedure. It appeared to me that in dealing with Orientals it would be much more tactful to adopt a more rapid and simple system. Therefore with the consent of my military colleague I proposed and arranged with the Turks that this examination, instead of being conducted by an elaborate Commission of neutrals, should be carried out in the following way—namely, that one British doctor should be left per thousand prisoners, and that he, in conjunction with a couple of Turkish doctors, should select the individuals who appeared eligible for exchange, under, of course, reciprocal conditions as regards prisoners in our possession.
It was also agreed that this selection should be made irrespective of rank and

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date of capture, and should be dependent solely upon the physical condition of the officer or man. In order to accelerate matters pending examination, it was further agreed that there should be an immediate selection made of 1,000 British prisoners on one side and 1,500 Turkish prisoners on the other, who should be exchanged as soon as the ship could be provided and necessary measures taken for securing the safety of the ship. The port of Scala Nuova, in the South of Smyrna, was selected as the port of debarkation in Turkey. The steamer will proceed from Egypt, and on her return voyage will disembark at Taranto such British prisoners as are entitled to be returned to this country. As regards civilians, it has been arranged that all civilians who wish to be repatriated, under military age and above military age, shall be repatriated, and that as regards those above military age they shall be exchanged on a head for head basis. With regard to inspections, as the House is no doubt aware, inspections were obstinately refused until this meeting took place. I am happy to say that this concession has at last been obtained, and it has been arranged that the Dutch Legation shall be authorised to visit all camps in Asiatic Turkey outside the military district of the Taurus, and the Turkish Government undertake to bring back men within the Taurus region to the regions which are liable to inspection as soon as the necessary arrangements can be made.
The other provisions, which are of less importance, relate to the formation of Help Committees in the camps, improved medical treatment, facilities for the purchase of food and clothing and the transmission of supplies, and Agreements have been arrived at with regard to punishments, reprisals, trials, and matters of that kind on the lines of the Agreement come to at The Hague with the German Government. The censorship of parcels and matters of that kind is to be relaxed, correspondence is to be accelerated, and the vessels which will transport the exchanged prisoners are to be permitted to carry supplies both of food and clothing which will be distributed by the Dutch Legation.
These are the main provisions of the Agreement, and as the War Office have now sanctioned largely increased allowances to British prisoners in Turkey, it may be hoped that the lot of these men will now
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be considerably more tolerable. I am not by any means an optimist by nature, and I do not wish to encourage any undue hopes. It is unfortunately the case that there is bound to be considerable delay in view of what has already happened. At the same time, without being an optimist, I do feel that the ratification of this Agreement, although arrived at very late in the day, is in itself a hopeful sign. I also flatter myself that I was able to convince the Turkish delegates that the carrying out of the Agreement was just as much, if not more, in their interest as it is in our own.
I only desire to say this in conclusion. Whereas there were a large number of people in this country who vehemently denounced any suggestion of meeting either German or Turkish delegates and who predicted that nothing would ever result from such a meeting, and that even if Agreements were arrived at they would never be carried out by the German Government, I desire to point out that these people have shown themselves to be completely in error. The Agreement made with the Germans by direct communication with German delegates at The Hague has at all events resulted in this, that there are thousands of Englishmen walking about free at the present moment who, if that meeting had not taken place, would still be prisoners in Germany. That is a fact which nobody can get over; and again I repeat that, while not an optimist, I do not see any reason why eventually the same process should not take place with regard to such of our men as have been unfortunate enough to be prisoners of the Turks during the last two years.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I think I shall be only expressing the view of your Lordships when I congratulate the Government, and my noble friend in particular, upon the statement which he has been able to make. We have watched with the greatest sympathy and interest the efforts which my noble friend has made over all these months to help these unfortunate prisoners both in Germany and in Turkey, and it is clear that his persistence and industry—and, may I say, his diplomatic tact?—have been crowned with very conspicuous success. I congratulate him, and thank him warmly for the observations he has been able to make.

ARMY ANNUAL BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD FINLAY): My Lords, I need saw very little in asking you to give this Bill a Second Reading. The Army Act comes to an end with this month, and it is necessary that it should be kept in force for the year which begins on the first of next month. This Bill keeps the Army Act in force, and also proposes a certain number of Amendments. Those Amendments are set out very clearly on the face of the Bill, and no purpose would be gained by going through them now, although I am quite prepared to do so if any of your Lordships should so desire. They will, of course, be considered in Committee. I will only add that as the matter is one of extreme urgency I give notice that in the event of your Lordships giving a Second Reading to the measure to-day I shall to-morrow move that Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered with a view to its being suspended in respect of the remaining stages of this Bill.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House tomorrow.

PRIVATE BILLS.
[From Minutes of April 23.]
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House. That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
British Aluminium Company (Lochaber Water Power). [H.L.]
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

LAND DRAINAGE (LOTTING FEN) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.
PONTYPOOL GAS AND WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
WEAR NAVIGATION AND SUNDERLAND DOCK BILL. [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
RED CROSS AND ORDER OF ST. JOHN BILL. [H.L.]
  PONTYPRIDD AND RHONDDA JOINT WATER BOARD BILL. [H.L.]

    RAILWAY PASSENGERS ASSURANCE BILL. [H.L.]
    YORKSHIRE ELECTRIC POWER BILL. [H.L.]
    Reported, with Amendments.

  NELSON CORPORATION WATER BILL. [H.L.]

    ALDERSHOT GAS, WATER, AND DISTRICT LIGHTING BILL. [H.L.]
    Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee adjourned on Friday last over yesterday; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
    House adjourned at ten minutes past five o'clock.