HL Deb 23 October 1917 vol 26 cc729-36

LORD ST. DAVIDS had the following Question on the Paper—

To ask His Majesty's Government whether they would introduce or support legislation for the abolition of the property qualification in the appointment of Deputy Lieutenants.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, until the creation of the Territorial Force, Lords Lieutenant were practically unrestricted as regards their choice of Deputy Lieutenants, except for a statutory qualification, as to which I will say a word in a moment. And, as far as my own county is concerned, I must say that some Deputy Lieutenants who were appointed long before my time and when there was no restriction, have been during the war some of the most useful members of our body.

But at the time of the creation of the Territorial Force Associations the then Secretary of State for War made new Regulations. Under those Regulations, before a man could be appointed he had to have held a commission in His Majesty's Army or Navy for ten years, or he had to have a qualification as an active member of a Territorial Force Association. And those Regulations, which made the appointments military ones, remained in force till after the commencement of the present war, when modified Regulations were issued. These Regulations did make some modification of the former order, but they still left the office of Deputy Lieutenant in the main a military one. A man had either to have a military qualification or to have rendered distinct public service.

Now I come to the statutory qualifications. The statutory qualifications are, first, that a man must have a residence in the county for which he is to be appointed. That seems to me a perfectly sound requirement. He ought certainly to have a residence either in the county or, at the very worst, immediately adjoining it. As regards the residential qualification, I have no objections to make. But there is a property qualification. Before a man can be appointed Deputy Lieutenant he must either have £200 a year from invested moneys, or he must have £200 a year I income from land, and that land need not be in the county for which he is to be appointed. I have it within my own knowledge that in some counties Lords Lieutenant are quite clear that this property qualification has sometimes prevented them from appointing the best man. There are men within my own knowledge, retired officers, who have done excellent work in the creation and organisation of the Territorial Force, who have worked at it from the beginning till now, who have deserved better of the military authorities in their counties, probably, than any other men, and who cannot be appointed Deputy Lieutenants because they have not anything except a military pension. I venture to think that this is not right.

I do not know what view the Government are going to take. They may say that they have no time for legislation. Well, considering the amount of legislation they are engaged in, I can hardly think that in time of war they can set up the theory that they have no time for military legislation, especially legislation of this kind, which would be quite small, quite easy, and would only involve a Bill of one clause. And if they do not like to introduce such a Bill themselves, or to tack on such a clause to some measure of their own, it would be easy for them to promise support to a Bill introduced by somebody else. They may say that the post of Lord Lieutenant is rather an honour of a small kind than an office. Well, that may be so. But it has seemed to me since the war that it is an office which has proved very useful in many counties, and it is an office to which definite work might very easily be given and which might be made to perform much more useful functions than it does to-day. But I do say that, whether you regard it as an office or an honour, it is an unjustifiable anomaly that it should be open only to men with property, and in either case it ought to be open to every officer in His Majesty's Army or in His Majesty's Navy.

VISCOUNT HALDANE

My Lords, I rise to express sympathy with the view which has been put forward by my noble friend, and if I ask the House to bear with me while I say a few words about the question, it is because in the past I had officially a good deal to do with it.

The origin of the qualification is historical. In olden times—times which are not so very old—the Militia were not under the Crown but under the Lords Lieutenant, and were run by the country gentlemen in the counties. It was natural that there should be a qualification for the person who administered the Militia, having regard to the notions of those times. The Lords Lieutenant and the Deputy Lieutenants, who were deputies in discharging their functions, were very important people while the Militia remained a separate force. But in 1871, as part of his reorganisation. Mr. Cardwell took the Militia from under the Lords Lieutenant and put them directly under the War Office. The effect of that was that the military functions of the Lords Lieutenant were something of an anomaly: and as to the Deputy Lieutenants, they had no functions at all of a definite character. The result was that these offices were regarded merely as offices of social distinction. Nevertheless, and possibly as a consequence of this, in the year 1882, when the great Militia Act was passed, a section was inserted—Section 33—defining the qualification. It was, as my noble friend has stated, £200 a year either in land or in income from personal property, and that remained, and it did not very much matter because the offices were purely social offices.

Then came the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act in 1907, and under that Act County Associations were set up to discharge the functions in connection with the new Territorial Force which had been discharged in the past by the Lords Lieutenant with regard to the Militia. But the Lord Lieutenant was given a new and very important function in connection with these Associations. He was the President, unless he declined or was unable to act; and in that case, the Army Council could appoint a President in his place. He was responsible for the guidance of the Associations, and everybody who knows the history of these years knows that the Lords Lieutenant have rendered admirable service in connection with the Territorial Force. They came back to their old position as heads of a military organisation, and, seated in their Associations, they proceeded to carry out administrative functions in connection with the Second Line Army of a very far-reaching and extensive kind.

Now, my Lords, the Associations over which they presided were to consist, and did consist, under the schemes which the Army Council framed under the new Act, of at least half military persons—that is to say, as a rule, men who had commissions in the new Territorial Force. But the person who was left out in the cold under the arrangement was the Deputy Lieutenant. This was partly because at the moment there was no obvious function for him. The Deputy Lieutenant used to be the deputy of the Lord Lieutenant, and there was no provision, and could be no provision, making him the deputy of the Association. He was not wanted. And accordingly the Lords Lieutenant went on in a double capacity, appointing the Deputy Lieutenants for purely social functions, and on their other side themselves discharging military functions.

Then came a Royal Warrant, for which I was responsible, which did what my noble friend said, and prescribed that no Deputy Lieutenant should be appointed unless he had held a commission in the Regular Army or Navy or in the Territorials, or had rendered distinguished services in connection with the County Association. There was a purpose. The purpose was that the Lord Lieutenant might be able to allocate Deputy Lieutenants to different districts of his county and so relieve himself of a good deal of work and supervision. I am not sure that there has been any uniform exercise of that power. In some places the Lord Lieutenant has appointed men who had rendered very admirable services, but in other cases has appointed Deputy Lieutenants who had done nothing at all. But the purpose was that they should be the deputies of the Lords Lieutenant, not in performing the functions discharged in the Association, but in going about attending meetings, seeing to recruiting, and doing all the other work which a Lord Lieutenant is called upon to do, That seems to me to be a very important and worthy function for the Deputy Lieutenant and one which I hope will be developed. I know that the noble Earl opposite (Lord Derby) has taken a great interest in this part of the organisation and has always tried to expand it in every way possible. But, as has been pointed out, for these people, consisting as they do now of men who must hold a military rank or have rendered public services in connection with military affairs, there is no reason at all why the old property qualification, which was re-enacted and kept alive by Section 33 of the Militia Act, 1882, for purely social reasons, should remain unrepealed. I agree with my noble friend in thinking that if the Government has the opportunity it would be a good plan to repeal Section 33 and leave the Lord Lieutenant to choose the most suitable people, who, I trust, will be persons of experience in military affairs who would co-operate in organising the Territorial Forces of the counties.

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE

My Lords, I desire to say a word in support of the proposal of my noble friend opposite. My noble and learned friend behind me (Lord Haldane) has explained with great clearness the various changes that have taken place in the appointment of Deputy Lieutenants as part of the great scheme in the formation of the Territorial Army, for which the credit is due to him; and I think I am right in saying that all Lords Lieutenant would be sorry to depart from that general qualification of service rendered to the Territorial Force, or more recently to the Volunteers, as representing a proper qualification for the appointment of Deputy Lieutenant. I am inclined to think my noble friend Lord Derby will correct me if I am wrong—that a somewhat narrow interpretation has been placed by the War Office on the rendering of eminent service to the Territorial Force. It has been taken, as I understand, to mean membership of the Association by holding His Majesty's Commission. If that is so, I venture to think that the qualification is unduly narrowed. Speaking for the county of which I am Lord Lieutenant, there are certain cases of people who have done admirable service in encouraging recruiting, more especially of late with regard to the Volunteers, who are not themselves members of the Territorial Association, and whom I should be glad myself to place on the list of Deputy Lieutenants. My noble friend will no doubt tell me if that further restriction exists. But I most cordially support the contention of my noble friend opposite, that the property qualification, which, as Lord Haldane has explained, is simply a relic of the day when the Deputy Lieutenant was practically always a country squire and probably succeeded his father in that office, almost, as he would suppose, as a matter of right, is now altogether out of date and ought to be swept away. I trust that His Majesty's Government will take a similar view.

THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH

My Lords, may I say a word in support of the proposal of the noble Lord opposite? I have been a Lord Lieutenant now for over twenty-five years and have therefore had some experience in this matter. I should like, in the first place, to say that my experience of the War Office is not the same as that of the noble Marquess. I have not found that they have put any narrow limitation on the applications that have been made for the appointment of Deputy Lieutenants. But I do think that the time has come when the property qualification should be done away with. I do not think that it is any help to anybody. It certainly does not help the Lord Lieutenant to select the right man for the right place. My experience has been and no doubt it has been the experience also of a good many other Lords Lieutenant that we now know more about the men who are doing good work in the county than we knew before, and the Lord Lieutenant wants an opportunity of doing something to give those men a pat on the back. Nearly everybody is doing something. I have never considered it from the point of view suggested by the noble and learned Viscount (Lord Haldane), that we are looking for men to do our work. What we want is to be able to do something for the men who are performing the work at the present time.

I wish the noble and learned Viscount had gone a little further in his historical statement with regard to the military character of the position of Lords Lieutenant. I do not know in whose day it came about, but certainly during the time I have been Lord Lieutenant there has been an alteration in the uniform. In the old days we used to have a purely military uniform, which was very satisfactory; but latterly we have been given a sort of combination dress, neither one thing nor the other, and extremely unsuitable for Lords Lieutenant of a certain age Now that we are all put into khaki, it does not matter. It would, however, be historically interesting to know whether the alteration in the uniform was made because we were considered too military before. With regard to the property qualification, I trust that the Secretary of State for War will see his way to abolish it.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (THE EARL OF DERBY)

My Lords, I am glad to find myself in entire agreement with the noble Lords who have spoken on this question. First of all, let me say that I am pleased that Lord St. Davids mentioned residence in the county as being a necessary qualification. I am not sure that I would not go further and say that any man who left the county permanently should also resign his Deputy Lieutenancy for the county. The noble and learned Viscount (Lord Haldane), in his historical review of Deputy Lieutenants, was quite correct in saying that the appointment was first of all an office; it then became an honour; now, thanks to the Territorial Act and to the war, it has again become an office. The Lords Lieutenant have responded in the most splendid way to the appeals that have been made to them during this war. I know from my own personal experience that when I have made certain appeals to them they have always cooperated in every possible way; and it is only right that they should have the power, in doing work for the Army and Navy of this country, to appoint as Deputy Lieutenants men who can help them in that work.

I am perfectly prepared to see the property qualification in this case done away with. What I propose to do, if the House thinks right, would be to consult with Lords Lieutenant as to the form which the proposed Bill should take, and as to whether, while abolishing the property qualification, we should not impose some sort of obligation upon Deputy Lieutenants and endeavour as far as possible to define the qualifications under which they should be appointed. The noble Marquess (Lord Crewe) spoke about the appointments being made in a narrow sense. I am sorry he should have found that to be the case.

TEE MARQUESS OF CREWE

Perhaps I may be allowed to explain. I have had no such experience myself. I have not found that any case I have put forward has been refused. But I have been told by other Lords Lieutenant that the particular interpretation which I mentioned has, in reply to inquiries, been given them by the War Office.

THE EARL OF DERBY

I am glad to hear his experience, as far as the noble Marquess is concerned; but I am sorry to hear what he has said as to others. I see every one of these applications myself. I go through every single qualification, and I can assure the noble Marquess that there are cases in which I have been advised that the gentleman in question was not qualified and I have overruled that advice, because I have felt that his work in connection with the Army or the Navy had been suffi- cient to justify his being made a Deputy Lieutenant. I am as anxious as any one in this House that no restrictions shall be put upon the appointment of Deputy Lieutenant that will exclude men who can be of use to the Lord Lieutenant on behalf of the Army or the Navy. I am afraid, however, that legislation will be necessary. Of course, I should like it, if possible, to be an unopposed Bill. I therefore suggest that the best course for me to adopt would be to consult all the Lords Lieutenant in order to frame a Bill that will do away with the property qualification and at the same time lay down, as far as we can, the rules and regulations by which gentlemen can be given this appointment as an office and not as an honour.

THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH

There is a limit to the number of Deputy Lieutenants permitted to each county, based on population. Some counties were given Deputy Lieutenants with a lavish hand in the early days. I suppose the limit will be retained?

THE EARL OF DERBY

We might consider the whole question of numbers. But if the predecessor of the Lord Lieutenant has been a prodigal son—

THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH

Prodigal father.

THE EARL OF DERBY

Yes, prodigal father—I do not think it is possible for us to legislate to make that good. But there may be cases in certain counties where the limit ought to be raised. I should like to take into consultation the Lords Lieutenant, and as far as the noble Lord is concerned I am sure we shall carry out what evidently is the wish of the House.