HL Deb 21 November 1917 vol 26 cc1097-104

LORD SOUTHWARK rose to move to resolve

  1. 1. That, in order that each House of Parliament may have immediate knowledge at first hand of statements made in the other House in times of national emergency, it is desirable that the privilege of being present at debates, by long custom accorded by each House of Parliament to the members of the other House, should not be withdrawn on the occasion of any Secret Sitting.
  2. 2. That, when an Order is made in this House for a Secret Sitting, notice thereof shall be sent to the other House, and that any member of the House of Commons present in this House when a Secret Sitting is about to begin, or seeking admission during the sitting, shall, notwithstanding any Order for the withdrawal of strangers, be invited to remain so long as he shall think fit during the sitting.
  3. 3. That a Message be sent to the House of Commons communicating the foregoing Resolutions, and recommending that, if that House shall concur in the first of these Resolutions, an Order of that House, in terms similar to those of the foregoing second Resolution, might be made.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, before I move the Resolution that stands in my name I should like to remind your Lordships that on July 17 I addressed to His Majesty's Government a Question on the same subject, to which my noble friend Lord Sandhurst was good enough to reply. He then stated that it was "not a matter within the competence; of His Majesty's Government to decide," but that it should be "determined by the House itself." I therefore suggested that I would give notice of a Motion, and this I have done, allowing plenty of time for your Lordships and His Majesty's Government to consider its terms. My Motion is a full and carefully prepared one, and in case the details may have escaped the attention of some of your Lordships, I will read to you the exact terms. [The noble Lord then read the terms of his Motion as on the Paper.] In the first place, let me say that I am not advocating Secret Sittings; as a matter of fact, I do not like them. My special point, however, is that if grave and special circumstances arise which in the opinion of the Government and by the vote of cither House necessitates the holding of a Secret Sitting, then the members of both Houses should be allowed to attend the sitting, but only members of the sitting House should be allowed to speak.

My contention is that members of both Houses are all members of Parliament, and that in matters of urgency and importance they ought at the same time and in the same. House to have the opportunity of hearing at first hand the statements of responsible Ministers and any discussion that may follow. After that sitting, if the members of the other House demand a Secret Sitting on the same subject, great advantage would accrue from their having heard the previous debate. They would have had time to make themselves more fully acquainted with the matters under discussion and could themselves deal with any points raised in the other House, whose members on that occasion would be listeners. To sum up, I will repeat what I said in my last speech about the special advantage of Joint Sittings— The special advantage of Joint Sittings would be that where communion lions have to be made to both Houses there would be no doubt, as there is now, as to the statements being absolutely identical. A Secret Session, if necessary, could be field on the following day in the other House, when the discussion would be far more important and interesting after having heard the debate the previous day in the Secret Session. Time would have been gained for reflection and for questions and suggestions which would, no doubt, be of a practical character.

I am quite aware that this House has not the power to compel members of the House of Commons to admit your Lordships to their Secret Sittings. But I say that when secrets are to be disclosed there should be no secrets which cannot and ought not to be equally disclosed to members of Parliament of both Houses. Since I have had the honour of a seat in your Lordships' House I have, as an old member of the House of Commons, always endeavoured to improve the relations between the two Houses by assuring your Lordships that I know that members of the House of Commons would always welcome and consider Bills, Amendments, and suggestions emanating from your Lordships' House when they are framed, as your Lordships are so well qualified to frame them, on practical, businesslike, and conciliatory lines. This Resolution, if carried, would in my opinion prove another step in the direction of establishing better relations between the two Houses, and would show to members of the House of Commons that we have no secrets we desire to keep from them any more than I believe they desire to keep secrets from us. As matters now stand, however important the subjects discussed may be, members of both Houses decline to communicate, as they are bound to do, information to those outside their own House. It may be said that on important matters Secret Sessions are held in both Houses, but then the responsible Minister is heard in only one House, and only a more or less different statement is made in the other. I am addressing now many old members of the House of Commons, some of them hereditary Peers, and some who, like myself, have been raised to the Peerage, and I am sure that I am expressing their views as well as my own when I say that a better feeling would exist between the House of Commons and the House of Lords if my suggestion were adopted. I have already spoken to several members of the House of Commons who cordially welcomed the Motion that I am putting before your Lordships to-day. I would also remind your Lordships of the right or privilege that members of both Houses at the present moment enjoy to attend debates in either House. If it is a right, ought members of Parliament of either House to be treated as "Strangers"? If it is a privilege, I suggest that it should be extended to Secret Sittings.

As regards accommodation, I dealt with that question very fully when I spoke on the previous occasion, because I tried to anticipate any objections that could be made to my proposal on that ground, and I think I was able to satisfy the House then by saying that when the Press Galleries, the Ladies' Galleries and the General Public Galleries are cleared, either in this House or in the House of Commons, there is more than ample accommodation for any number of Peers or Members of Parliament who would be likely to attend. The Resolution on the Paper itself explains all that I have to say upon the subject, but I hope I have briefly given sound and practical reasons for this Resolution. At any rate, it would be made clear that, as far as Secret Sittings are concerned, this House has no secret that it wishes to keep from the House of Commons, and I am quite certain that the members of the House of Commons will have no secrets that they wish to keep from members of the House of Peers. We are all members of Parliament, and we wish to keep no secrets away one from another. I beg to move.

Moved to resolve—

  1. 1. That, in order that each House of Parliament may have immediate knowledge at first hand of statements made in the other House in times of national emergency, it is desirable that the privilege of being present at debates, by long custom accorded by each House of Parliament to the members of the other House, should not be withdrawn on the occasion of any Secret Sitting.
  2. 2. That, when an Order is made in this House for a Secret Sitting, notice thereof shall be sent to the other House, and that any member of the House of Commons present in this House when a Secret Sitting is about to begin, or seeking admission during the sitting, shall, notwithstanding any Order for the withdrawal of strangers, be invited to remain so long as he shall think fit during the sitting.
  3. 3. That a Message be sent to the House of Commons communicating the foregoing Resolutions, and recommending that, if that House shall concur in the first of these Resolutions, an Order of that House, in terms similar to those of the foregoing second Resolution, might be made.—(Lord Southwark.)

THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON)

My Lords, I waited before rising to ascertain whether any noble Lord who speaks with greater experience of the House and therefore with greater authority than myself had any advice to give to your Lordships upon this subject, but inasmuch as nobody has risen I seize the opportunity of offering, not the opinions of the Government, because this is not really a matter for the Government either to decide or even to advise upon, but the personal opinion which, for my own part, I entertain upon the matter.

The noble Lord who has moved this Resolution and who has been a very active and, if I may say so, already a successful reformer as regards the procedure of your Lordships' House, commenced by saying that this is not the first occasion on which he has raised this matter. I think it was in July last that he asked a question on the subject, and on that occasion in my absence the noble Viscount, Lord Sandhurst, was kind enough to give a reply. Lord Sandhurst said on that occasion, and said with truth, that—as I repeat now this is a matter not for the decision of the Government but for the decision of the House. Each House decides, on a Motion made by one of its members and by its own vote, whether there shall be a Secret Session for this or that purpose of the highest public importance, and when it is so decided, or if it is so decided, the regulation of its procedure is obviously in its own hands.

My noble friend Lord Southwark rested his case this afternoon upon two propositions. The first was that it might be a convenience to those member of your Lordships' House who have to make Ministerial statements to ensure that their statements are identical with those which are made in another place. I do not know what has been the experience of noble Lords who have preceded me in the office which I happen at present to hold, but I hope it will not generally be regarded as true that there is a discrepancy between the authoritative Ministerial statements made in one House and those made in the other. I am quite sure my noble friend Lord Lansdowne, who long occupied the position which I now hold, will bear me out when I say that those who occupy that position take the utmost trouble to make their statements correspond; and I hope that, broadly speaking, it may be laid down that, although there must be differences in phraseology, the situation does not occur in which there is any marked difference between the Ministerial statements made in one House and those made in the other; at least, I should be very sorry if that were the case, and it would argue, I think, considerable blame for the persons concerned.

The second reason of the noble Lord was, I think, a stronger one. He argued that the members of both Houses have a great interest in what takes place in the other House of Parliament, and that if they have not a natural right to know what is said there, at any rate they have a reasonable claim to know what is said on important occasions by representatives of the Government. There I am with him. But I think I would rest the case myself, if this House is disposed to consider it, upon another ground. I would regard it rather as an act of courtesy and of hospitality which the noble Lord invites us in this House to extend to the other House of Parliament. Now, Secret Sessions are not of frequent occurrence here. I have not had time to go into the history of the case, but I should be surprised if I were wrong in saying that the Secret Session which was held here, I think two years ago, and which I remember was inaugurated by the noble Marquess who sits opposite by a speech made from this Bench, was the first occasion for many, many years in which a Secret Session had been held. There have been none since, although the Government were quite willing to consider the request, if such a request were made.

Like the noble Lord who has just spoken, I am not very much enamoured of Secret Sessions myself, and I believe the general sense of this House would be against them, except on rare occasions when information that ought not to be given to the public or that cannot be divulged to the enemy has to be stated in Parliament. It is desirable as a general proposition that the debates of this House—I do not speak of the other House, although I think the same considerations apply in a greater degree—should be public and should appear subsequently in the Press. I only make that general observation by way of suggesting that Secret Sessions are an incident which is likely to be of most infrequent occurrence in the future, and I am not certain that the experience of another place in this war would predispose them to any frequent repetition of this form of Session. Therefore the act of courtesy which the noble Lord invites us to tender is one which, as I suggest, will be of very rare occurrence indeed, and which need not be regarded as affecting the ordinary every-day procedure of our House. My own inclination, therefore, would be, subject to anything that may be said by your Lordships after I have spoken, to say that the suggestion of the noble, Lord is one which we might reasonable accept, and one which might be offered as an act of courtesy to the other House of Parliament.

As regards the reciprocal action that may be taken, and that the noble Lord hopes will be taken, by the House of Commons, I have no right to speak. The noble Lord himself, I gathered from what he said, has been in conversation with friends of his in another place and has learned from them that they would be favourably disposed towards his suggestion. I have not had the same opportunities as he has had, perhaps, of conversing with members of the House of Commons. But still I am inclined to think, on general grounds, that the suggestion is one which they would be more likely to entertain favourably than the reverse. However that may be, the House of Commons are the masters of their own procedure and the judges of their own conduct, and I should be the last, speaking on behalf of the Government, to make any suggestion as to the way in which they will act, or ought to act, in the present case. My own inclination would be to ask your Lordships to accept the suggestion of my noble friend as an act of courtesy to the House of Commons, affecting only, and pledging only, ourselves, and leave them to take such action as regards their own procedure in the future as they may think fit to adopt.

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE

My Lords, like the noble Earl who leads the House, I feel that this is not a matter in which the opinion of any individual, even of those who sit on the Front Government Bench, can be regarded as paramount or conclusive. It is essentially a matter for the House as a whole; and it is only because I happen to be a very old member of the House that I rise to say a word in following my noble friend opposite.

On the general question of the reasons for holding Secret Sessions, I am disposed to say "ditto" absolutely to the noble Earl. They ought, in my opinion, to be held only for the purpose of communicating to Parliament information which cannot, during the war, be made public for national reasons. They certainly ought not to be regarded as mere opportunities of indulging in private in rhetoric which it is not desired to see printed in the newspapers. They ought to be strictly confined to business and to the communication of information; possibly to the asking of questions, to induce further information, by those who are not members of the Government. I entirely agree also with my noble friend that there can be no objection to the sending forward of this Resolution. If and when a Secret Session is held in this House. I cannot conceive that any of your Lordships could take exception to the presence in the Galleries of members of the House of Commons. That House, as the noble Earl has stated, is master of its own procedure; and if the House of Commons desires to extend a similar invitation to us I have no doubt that some of your Lordships would be glad to attend and to receive such secret information as may there be divulged. There can, I take it, be no objection; indeed, rather the contrary; because, as the noble Earl indicated, an arrangement which seems to establish a friendly tie between the two Houses can be only agreeable and advantageous in itself. I therefore support the suggestion made by my noble friend opposite, and I hope that none of your Lordships will desire to oppose it.

On Question. Motion agreed to.