Lords Sitting of 25 July 1917

THE MARQUESS OF MILFORD HAVEN.
His Serene Highness Prince Louis Alexander of Battenberg, G.C.B., G.C.V.O., K.C.M.G., Knight, of Justice of the Order of Saint John of Jerusalem in England, one of His Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council, Admiral in the Royal Navy, having been created Viscount Alderney, in the County of Southampton, Earl of Medina, and Marquess of Milford Haven—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
The Earl of Kingston—Took the Oath.

ROYAL VICTORIA INFIRMARY, NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE BILL. [H.L.]
Commuted for to-morrow.
NAVAL DISCIPLINE BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Tuesday next (The Earl of Lytton). (No. 83.)
BOAZ DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
BARROW-IN-FURNESS CORPORATION WATER BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.
BLACKPOOL IMPROVEMENT BILL.
Reported, with Amendments.
PORT OF LONDON AUTHORITY (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments: Further Amendments made: Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
CHEPSTOW WATER BILL.
  SHEFFIELD UNITED GASLIGHT COMPANY BILL.
    SHEFFIELD CORPORATION BILL.
    Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

RETURNS, REPORTS, &c.
Commission of Inquiry into Industrial Unrest—Reports of the Commissioners for the following areas—

North-Eastern;

North-Western, including a Supplemental Report on the Barrow-in-Furness District;

Yorkshire and East Midlands;

West Midlands;

London and South-Eastern;

South-Western;

Wales, including Monmouthshire;

Scotland:

Presented (by command) and ordered to lie on the Table.
County Officers and Courts (Ireland) Act, 1877—Order, dated 15th May, 1917, made by the Lord Chancellor and County Court Judges fixing the fees to be taken in respect of proceedings under the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906:
Assurance Companies—Statements deposited with the Board of Trade during the year ended, 31st December, 1916, under—
Section 7 (1) of the Assurance Companies Act, 1909 (First, Second and Third Schedules);
Section 7 (1) of the Assurance Companies Act, 1909 (Fourth and Fifth Schedules):
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and ordered to lie on the Table.

LAND DRAINAGE (EWERBY) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  LAND DRAINAGE (SWAFFHAM) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
LAND DRAINAGE (WISTOW) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read 3a to-morrow.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
  GAS AND WATER PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
    PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
      LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 2) BILL.
      Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
PARKER'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
Amendment reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read 3a to-morrow.

FORESTRY RECONSTRUCTION.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE had the following Question on the Paper—
To ask the Lord Privy Soal whether the Prime Minister will lay on the Table of both Houses of Parliament the Final Report of the Forestry Sub-Committee of the Reconstruction Committee which was sent in in May last.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I would ask the noble Duke who represents the Board of Agriculture, and who, I believe, is going to answer this Question, whether he can give us any assurance on the subject of the Report of the Forestry Sub-Committee of the Reconstruction Committee. This Report was sent in to the Prime Minister, I understand, in May last. Your Lordships may be aware that this was a particularly strongly constituted sub-committee, commanding the greatest confidence from those interested in this subject, and the Report is awaited with very great anxiety by all those who have given attention to forestry in all parts of the United Kingdom. The reference to the sub-committee was not limited to Great Britain but extended to Ireland, and the Committee was representative of Ireland as well as of Scotland, England, and Wales. We are rather curious to know why there has been this delay in the publication of the Report, and I hope the noble Duke will be able to tell me that it will be published at the earliest possible date.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH): My Lords, the Report of the Forestry Sub-Committee of the Reconstruction Committee is, at the Prime Minister's request, being carefully considered by the Minister for Reconstruction in consultation with the various Departments concerned in the development of afforestation. In these circumstances the Prime Minister is not at present prepared to give any undertaking as to the publication of the Report. I fear that this is the fullest information I can give to the noble Earl at the present time in reply to his Question.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I believe that the Minister for Reconstruction has not yet commenced work. Therefore I am left wondering who has been considering this Report carefully during the last two months. But I shall return to the charge at an early date, when, as I hope, the Minister for Reconstruction will have had time to do more than begin to consider this question.

NAVAL AND MILITARY WAR PENSIONS, &c. (TRANSFER OF POWERS), BILL.
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF CRAWFORD): My Lords, the main object of this Bill is to arrange that the whole dealing with disabled pensioners shall be handed over to the care and responsibility of a Minister answerable to Parliament. The Bill has been the subject of prolonged consideration. I believe that it has been adjusted between all interested parties, and it reaches us from the House of Commons as an agreed measure. The first clause dissolves the Statutory Committee and places in the hands of the Minister of Pensions the work of that body. The Statutory Committee has done very remarkable and noteworthy service to the State, but circumstances since its inception have changed very much, and it is now generally recognised, both by the Statutory Committee itself and by the Ministry of Pensions, that this dissolution is advisable. The Statutory Committee, though dissolved, will continue indirectly in the 300 local committees which have been established under its œgis, and it is to these committees that the Ministry of Pensions in future will look for local information and advice, and upon their efficiency much will depend. There is, however, a case for some special committee in addition to the actual Ministry of Pensions, and this is recognised in the second clause of the Bill, conferring upon the Minister of Pensions the right to appoint a Special Grants Committee to consist of ten persons. I propose when the Bill is in Committee to raise that figure from ten to twelve, as more convenient. To this new Special Grants Committee various functions exercised hitherto by the Statutory Committee will be transferred. There are certain specialised cases where it is preferable that a Committee should act

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having special and particular knowledge. Some of the members of this Committee will probably be drawn from the Statutory Committee itself, and it will be a useful addition to the machinery of the Department. Clause 3 deals with the transfer of the staff and makes arrangements about the funds. I shall ask your Lordships to agree to one small and wholly technical amendment in this clause, which enables the Treasury to make the necessary arrangements about the finance of the Special Grants Committee. Clause 4 is a technical clause; and the last clause—Clause 5—deals with the short title, repeal, and saving.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Crawford.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (ALLOTMENTS AND LAND CULTIVATION) (IRELAND) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment, and to be read 3a to-morrow.

FINANCE BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading (postponed from yesterday) read.
LORD ELPHINSTONE: Your Lordships will recollect that when I moved the Third Reading of this Bill yesterday Lord Gainford raised a point to which I was at the moment unable to reply. I have since had an opportunity of consulting the authorities concerned, and with your Lordships' permission I will read the Memorandum which they have given me on the point: The clause to which Lord Gainford referred—Clause 14—already involves an important concession, as it enables the person who had only a contingent interest in a fund to treat, when the contingency arises, the accumulated income which in fact comes to him as capital—i.e., as part of the corpus of the fund—as though it had actually been his income year by year during the period of accumulation, and he will be allowed to claim Income Tax repayment accordingly if it pays him to do so. He can claim this repayment as soon as the fund vests in him—namely, on the happening of the contingency. Plainly he cannot claim before, because at any earlier date not only is the money not his but it may
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never become his. There is no delay so far as the Board of Inland Revenue is concerned, but equally there is no possible ground for the allowance of interest in addition to this repayment of tax. No interest is allowed in other cases of Income Tax repayment claims.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Elphinstone.)
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I confess I am not cognisant of the importance of the point which Lord Gainford raised yesterday, but as he is not in his place to-day I desire to acknowledge the courtesy of the noble Lord opposite in having taken the trouble to discover from the Treasury what they conceive to be, as I understand, a complete answer to the contention of my noble friend.
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

PRISONERS OF WAR.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Gainford is not able to be in his place to-day, he has asked me to put on his behalf the Question standing in his name—
To ask His Majesty's Government whether they are able to make any statement in regard to agreements relating to prisoners of war concluded between the British and German delegates who recently met at The Hague.
I think my noble friend opposite has not yet had an opportunity of making a statement on this subject to your Lordships and the country. I need not tell him that his statement is looked forward to with the most acute interest in many quarters. The subject-matter touches the hearts of a great number of people, and the relatives of those primarily interested are so deeply concerned that anything he says will be regarded with the greatest attention. I do not know whether my noble friend is able to make a full statement to-day, but any information he can give will be most welcome.
THE ASSISTANT UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD NEWTON): My Lords, although these agreements were signed by the British and German delegates as far back as July 2, up to now we have failed to elicit any reply from the German Government

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as to whether these agreements have been ratified or not, and this in spite of the fact that we have made at least three inquires in respect of this particular matter. What the reasons for this delay can be I am utterly at a loss to imagine. If the agreements redounded only to the advantage of one side one could understand the delay, but as the advantages are reciprocal it is, I repeat, quite incomprehensible that the reply has not arrived. All that I can say to my noble friend on this occasion is that the delegates undertake that, pending ratification, the agreements should be carried out as far as possible. As an instance of what we are doing, I may mention that one of the agreements related to the remitting of punishments inflicted upon military and civilian prisoners of war, and it was mutually agreed that all these punishments should terminate by a given date. In pursuance of this undertaking His Majesty's Government thought it only right at once to liberate—it has not yet been done, but it will be done very shortly—all German military and civilian prisoners who are undergoing punishment. These men will be released, subject, of course, to the fact that if the German Government fail to ratify the agreement their punishments will be resumed and they will return to their cells. I do not like to give any further details with regard to the agreements in view of what I have already stated. I can only assure my noble friend that no one regrets more than I do the fact that I am unable at the present moment to make a full statement, but if he will leave the Question on the Paper I hope the day will soon arrive when I shall be able to give complete information regarding our proceedings and the agreements arrived at.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I need not say that we shall take care that a farther Question is put to my noble friend when he is in a position to answer it. But could the noble Lord inform the House of the different categories of subjects which were dealt with in the negotiations, because he said that the agreements were all to be carried out pending ratification. It might be of use to the relatives to know what subjects were dealt with in the agreements. If the noble Lord thinks it premature to say anything upon that, I would not, of course, press him. He has told us that all punishments inflicted on officers and men on either side are to be remitted at once pending ratification.
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That will be an immense relief to a great number of persons in this country. But I would suggest to him that pending ratification there should be no delay on our side. I noticed that my noble friend said that these releases had not yet taken place but would take place shortly. I think he came back from abroad some three weeks ago.
LORD NEWTON: A fortnight ago.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I must say I think His Majesty's Government—and here I address myself to the noble Earl the Leader of the House—ought to give an order that these agreements should be carried out at once on our part; otherwise all this time we should have no reason to complain if the Germans did not liberate the British prisoners in Germany. My correspondence is very large on this subject. The unfortunate relatives write to me every day asking whether nothing can be done, and stating that their brother, or their son, or other near relation, is in prison in Germany undergoing hard labour as a reprisal for something which is alleged to have been done by the British Government. If this could be brought to an end by a stroke of the pen on the part of His Majesty's Government, there ought to be no delay whatever on our side. Let us be quite clear that we have carried out our part of the bargain, and we should then be in a position to insist that the German Government should do the same.
LORD NEWTON: His Majesty's Government are fulfilling their part of the bargain—
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: But the noble Lord stated that the German prisoners in our hands had not yet been liberated from confinement, although it would be done very shortly.
LORD NEWTON: They have not yet been liberated because the date for doing so has not yet arrived. It is not advisable, for obvious reasons, to mention the date. But my noble friend may be perfectly certain that His Majesty's Government have not the smallest intention of evading either this undertaking or any other. I am only too anxious, as I said before, to make a statement, but I have been directed not to make a full statement until the ratification has taken place; and the sooner I am in a position to do so, the better I shall be pleased.

EXPLOSIONS IN WARSHIPS.
VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN: My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government the Question standing in my name—Whether, in view of the loss of H.M.S. "Vanguard" and other ships since the commencement of the war, they will give immediate orders that all workmen sent on board vessels of our Fleet to execute any sort of work shall in future be under the supervision of the officer in command of the ship, with power to search them and inquire into their antecedents.
THE ADDITIONAL PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE ADMIRALTY (THE EARL OF LYTTON): My Lords, the loss of H.M.S. "Vanguard" in circumstances very similar to those which have resulted in the loss of other of His Majesty's ships on previous occasions is naturally a matter of the gravest concern to the authorities at the Admiralty. I desire to take this opportunity of expressing on behalf of the Admiralty their most profound sympathy with the relatives of the gallant men who lost their lives in that disaster. Of all the sacrifices which people are called upon to bear at the present time, a disaster such as this is perhaps the most difficult of all and deserving of a special measure of sympathy. It is natural that the recurrence of these explosions should lead people who read of them to endeavour to discover some cause for them and to find an explanation in the action of enemy agents, and I rather gather from the form of the Question which the noble Viscount has put on the Paper that he is also inclined to draw the same inference. On that point I can only say that the most thorough and searching inquiries were held on the last occasion that a similar explosion occurred, and that no evidence of any kind whatsoever was forthcoming to justify a suspicion of treachery or sabotage clue to the action of enemy agents. So far as it is possible to prove a negative, the authorities hold that the results of those inquiries prove that such, at any rate, was not the case. The case of the "Vanguard" is now being investigated, and until the
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results of that investigation are received I am afraid it is impossible for me to make any statement as to the action which may ultimately be taken. I can, however, assure the noble Viscount that the suggestions contained in his Question will be most carefully considered in this connection, and, indeed, any other suggestions that we may receive from any quarter for dealing with these very serious circumstances. We owe it to the Fleet and to the relatives of the men serving in it, as well as to the general public, to take any action, whatever it may be, which may ensure the safety at home of the men who are serving in His Majesty's Navy.
VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN: As a matter of fact, I was not in my Question suggesting action by enemy agents. But if what is being said is correct, suspicion is cast on naturalised British subjects; and, further, it is reported—I do not know with what truth—that a man supposed to have been guilty has been caught. What I wish to know is whether the Admiralty are going to allow any one coming from anywhere to go on board a vessel and work without his being under the control of an officer of the ship. That was really the object of my Question.
THE EARL OF LYTTON: If the noble Viscount had said that that was his point, I would have replied at once. There is no ground whatever for suspecting any individual in connection with this matter, and it is quite untrue that any person has been apprehended in this connection. Neither is it true that anybody is allowed on board His Majesty's ships to carry out repairs or for any other object without being subject to the closest possible scrutiny, not only with regard to birth and connections, but with regard to antecedents as well.
VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN: I thank the noble Earl for his satisfactory answer.
House adjourned at five o'clock, till to-morrow, a quarter past four o'clock.