§ LORD PARMOOR had the following Question on the Paper—
§ To ask His Majesty's Government how many Orders having reference to agriculture have been issued since August, 1914; how many of these Orders are now in force, and whether those in force could be published in a collected form for the convenience of agriculturists.
§ The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, the Question which I have to ask has to do with the difficulty which agriculturists experience in knowing what Orders affect them. The noble Duke who is going to reply has no doubt in mind that to many of these Orders heavy penalties are attached, and probably he will agree that every practical means ought to be taken so that those who are subject to these Orders should know what they contain, and that it is unjust to subject a man to penalties when the subject-matter has not been properly called to his notice. Let me, in a few words, explain to your Lordships how the complication irises. These Orders affecting agriculturists may have their origin in one of three sources, and it is important that they should be kept distinct. First, the obligation may arise from the operation of the Defence of the Realm Act itself. But practically, although some obligations arise in that way, they arise more ordinarily in one of two other ways. There may be Orders in Council which affect generally the whole position; then you have the third source, which has caused, I think, a great deal of trouble and confusion—I refer to Departmental Orders. I ask in my Question how many of these Orders are now in force having reference to agriculture. As far as I can understand, there were 214 Orders made by Departments up to June 30 under the Defence of the Realm Act. Beyond that date I have not got the numbers. Although I do not say that all of these apply to agriculture, a considerable number of them do.
§ Let us see wherein lies the confusion. These Departmental Orders as regards agriculture may come from seven different Departments; they may be inconsistent with one another, and, as we have just heard in the recent discussion, they are apparently not made by the, heads of Departments or responsible persons, but by scattered Committees. If I correctly understood the noble Earl (Lord Derby), his plea was this, that if on the Committee 15 you find a representative of the Board of Agriculture, you may infer that the Board of Agriculture has assented to the particular Order. I suggest that this is a very wide inference, and one that cannot be fairly drawn. There is one suggestion that I should like to make in the interests of agriculturists. It is that all Orders afflicting agriculture should be issued through the Department of Agriculture. That would be a direct way of bringing them to the notice of agriculturists, who would then be able to ascertain at the Board of Agriculture the aggregate of Orders by which their business was affected. Why should not that be done? I think if that system were followed a great improvement would be effected, because agriculturists naturally look to the Board of Agriculture in these matters.
§ In a great many of these Orders questions rather of policy than of Departmental work arise. I dare say your Lordships are aware that in the Defence of the Realm Act and the General Regulations there is this provision, that Orders made shall affect as little as possible ordinary avocations. We all admit that a business such as agriculture should be interfered with as little as possible. It is obvious that a difference of opinion may arise between a man engaged in the business and the official who is seeking to interfere with him—a naturally different outlook between the two—and having studied these Orders carefully, I think that some of them undoubtedly transgress the general provision which is laid down as the underlying principle in all these Orders, namely, that ordinary business shall be interfered with as little as possible. Of course, at the present time we are not under ordinary legislative authority; we are under the authority of bureaucratic Orders. But I suggest, in connection with a matter of this sort, that as far as possible—I do not know why you should not make a general Regulation to this effect—these Orders might be laid for a few days at any rate on the Tables of the Houses of Parliament in order that Parliament, although it has lost control with regard to legislature, might at least have an opportunity of seeing that these Orders comply with the provision laid down in the Defence of the Realm Regulations. That is a very important principle which ought to be followed. It is really the only security which business people have that their interests, whatever they may be, are not unduly interfered with.
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I should like to give a further illustration of the difficulties and misunderstandings which arise from there being no proper publication or intimation of the decisions of these various Departments. I suppose there is no more important question as to the interests of a business than the fixing of prices, particularly maximum prices. This is a question that was raised the other day when the Food Controller was present; and it is perfectly well known that since the Ministry of Food Control was instituted towards the end of last year a large number of Orders has been issued from that Department affecting the question of prices. Now, what is the safeguard provided in the Regulations? This is not a Departmental Order to which I am calling attention, but one of the Defence of the Realm Regulations conferring powers on the Food Controller. It is 2F, and appears on page 5 of the Food Supply Manual revised to May 15. The last part of paragraph (2) runs—
Such compensation shall be paid for any article or stocks so requisitioned as shall, in default of agreement, be determined by the arbitration of a single arbitrator appointed in manner provided by the Order; but in determining the amount of the compensation the arbitrator shall have regard to the cost of production of the article and to the allowance of a reasonable profit, without necessarily taking into consideration the market price of the article at the time.
That provision is, of course, a most important protection.
§ I will give an illustration in reference to a matter which arose before your Lordships the other day. Part of the cost of the production of beef is the purchase price of the store cattle, and, as the noble Viscount (Lord Chaplin) pointed out, the store cattle constitute in many cases a large proportion of the capital of the particular farmer. I quite agree that if a particular farmer has paid an exorbitant price, you would not consider that; but you ought in fairness to consider whether there was a high market price when the farmer had to purchase what constitutes the raw material of his industry. I think there can be no answer to a proposition of that kind. But these matters are not brought to the minds of the farmers. There is no proper publication of such a provision as that. I may say that the same provision applies if prices are fixed either by the Admiralty or by any other Department which has the power. They are directed to have regard to the cost of production and to allow a reasonable profit.
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I come now to what the Food Controller said the other day, because this very point was raised with regard to store cattle, and in a crucial way. Subsequently in the debate he corrected what he had said in his speech. I want to state the matter fairly, and will give both his statement and the correction. He said—
I cannot admit the argument that because store cattle have in many instances been bought at high prices the consumer generally throughout the country must continue to pay what I regard as excessive prices for his meat.
Naturally nobody desires the consumer to pay excessive prices. But what you have to consider is, is the price excessive which allows only for the fair cost of production plus a reasonable profit. And if you are to have regard to cost of production you must take into consideration the price at which the raw material was purchased. The Food Controller interjected afterwards that he did not mean that no account would be taken of the excessive prices paid for store cattle. There, again, the word "excessive" is misleading. A high price may be excessive from one point of view, but the point is whether in the matter of business that price had to be paid. If you could not avoid paying it according to the market conditions, then in those circumstances it ought to be taken into consideration as a material factor in dealing with the prices fixed.
§ I come now to the question how the farmer is to know that the Orders in Council or the Legislature have given him a protection of that kind unless it is duly notified to him. I believe that these Orders and Regulations are published in the London Gazette. Well, ninety-nine farmers out of a hundred have never heard of the Gazette, and the hundredth never sees it; so that so far as publication in the Gazette is concerned, it is utterly valueless. A part of my Question asks of the noble Duke, Why should not the Orders enforced with regard to agriculturists be published in a collective form for their convenience? Surely that is a request which should be favourably considered. I believe that agriculturists desire to do all they conceivably can do to promote production. On the other hand, they ought to have a guarantee that if they are to be proceeded against by means of penalties they should know the course of the procedure taken against them. It is true that a Food Supply Manual has been published, but the effect of such a Manual in connection with agriculture 18 is unfortunate unless you give an exhaustive summary of everything affecting that industry; and if from what is nominally an exhaustive category you omit certain factors, you really mislead the unfortunate farmer. In fact, he is rendered liable to penalties although at the time he had no notion that he was making himself subject to any penalties at all. I therefore hope that the noble Duke will be able to say that the Orders now in force affecting agriculture will be published in a connected form for the convenience and information of agriculturists.
§ THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH)My Lords, I can assure the noble and learned Lord that this matter has been most carefully considered by the Board of Agriculture. A very large number of Orders and Regulations affecting agriculture has been issued during the war, not only by the Board of Agriculture, but by the War Office, the Ministry of Food, the Ministry of Munitions, and the Board of Trade. Many of these Orders were applicable only to the conditions prevailing at the time, and they had been suspended or withdrawn as the situation changed. In view of the labour that, with the present depleted staffs in all the Departments, would be involved in preparing the Returns for which the noble and learned Lord has asked, and the fact that the collection would only be confusing to agriculturists because of this lack of finality, it is hoped that the noble and learned Lord will defer his request until the close of the war.
I am afraid that Lord Parmoor will not think this is a very satisfactory answer. But let me deal with one or two of the points which he raised in the course of his speech. He reminded the House that there had been 214 Orders issued by different Departments up to the present time, that there were seven Departments responsible for issuing these Orders, and he added with some justice that there might be a confusion between Orders so issued. Let me, however, assure the noble and learned Lord of this fact, that it is an unwritten law in the Civil Service that any order issued by a Department which is in any way likely to affect another Department is first of all submitted in the form of a provisional draft to that other Department before it is attempted to be put into its 19 final phraseology. Indeed, only this morning a provisional draft came before me from the Department of the Food Controller dealing with a particular cereal, and it was the duty of the Board of Agriculture to look at that draft and make any comments upon it which they thought it called for. So the noble and learned Lord will see that the Departments do their best to ensure that the Orders are issued with the consent and approval and the collective authority of the different Departments concerned.
Lord Parmoor then went on to discuss the various Joint Committees, and he referred to the work of the Committee with which my noble friend Lord Derby dealt this afternoon—the Forage Committee appointed by the War Office. The noble and learned Lord suggested that as the representatives on these Committees might give a somewhat unwilling consent to many decisions which were arrived at, it might be possible for all Orders affecting agriculture to be issued eventually through the Board of Agriculture. That is a somewhat novel proposal, but it is one which I shall feel it my duty to bring at once to the attention of the President of the Hoard of Agriculture, and I am sure he will give it every consideration. But I am bound to say that I doubt very much whether the Board of Trade the Ministry of Munitions, or perhaps most of all the Food Controller, would be willing to consent to the proposal.
Then it was suggested that these Orders might be laid on the Tables of both Houses before they come into operation. That, again, is a proposal which is novel in its character, but it is one which I can assure the noble and learned Lord will be taken notice of and will receive our consideration. There are, however, many practical objections to such a course. It is obvious that it would cause delay. Very often these Orders have to be issued on the spur of the moment. I presume that it is desired by the noble and learned Lord that the Orders should receive the assent of the House of Lords and the House of Commons before they are finally issued. That might lead to debate, and as a decision is frequently desired by the Executive at short notice it would certainly delay the execution of the Orders if they had to wait until Parliament had agreed to them. Therefore I fear that there would be some difficulty in that respect.
20 Next Lord Parmoor pointed out that the farming community were not aware of the contents of many Orders in Council. I agree. I am prepared to admit that I myself am not familiar, not having had the legal training of the noble and learned Lord, with their exact meaning. He pointed out to the House that under these Orders in Council, when store cattle which had been purchased at a high price were resold at a loss owing the fact that the price of beef had been fixed by the Food Controller, the farming community were entitled to some compensation. That is what I understood the noble and learned Lord to say.
§ LORD PARMOORYes; but the word "compensation" is used there as the equivalent of "price."
§ THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHThat is a legal point on which I confess I should not like to pursue an argument with the noble and learned Lord. I have no doubt that that is a correct interpretation; and, if I may suggest it. I think Lord Parmoor should address those remarks with the full vigour and skill of his eloquence to the noble Lord the Food Controller himself. I can assure the noble and learned Lord however, that all the points to which he has called attention to-night in connection with store cattle and the possible loss to the farmer who had bought, say, in March or April last at very high prices, will be brought forward by the President of the Board of Agriculture with all the force at his command and with all the eloquence at his disposal in discussion with the Food Controller and those who are his advisers. I fear that the noble and learned Lord will be somewhat disappointed at the reply I have given. I fear also that he—and possibly a good many other noble Lords in this House—regards with suspicion and almost dislike the many Orders that are now issued by the different Departments. But I am bound to say, having given the matter every consideration, I do not see how it is possible to get the various things carried out that we wish to see done unless these Orders are issued from time to time. They are issued for the purpose of trying to get from citizens a response to the decisions which are made by various Departments week by week and month by month.
§ VISCOUNT CHAPLINMy Lords. I am not in the least surprised to hear from the 21 noble Duke that his answer will probably be most unsatisfactory to the noble and learned Lord. It certainly would be to me. The noble Duke asked the noble and learned Lord to postpone his request until the war is over. When will the war be over? And what use would it be to have this request granted if the war were over? I am going to make one other request, if I may, to the noble Duke. I understand that one of his objections is to publishing the great number of Orders owing to the labour entailed upon his diminished staff. Is he aware how many of these Orders relate to agriculture only? It must be a comparatively small number. I imagine; at least it is to be hoped so. Would it be possible to compile only those Orders relating to agriculture? One of the greatest difficulties of which agriculturists complain to me over and over again by letter and by word of mouth whenever they have the opportunity is this. They say, "We never hear anything about these Orders. We do not know what they are or where they are published." As a matter of fact, I understand that they are published only in the Gazette unless the newspapers choose to repeat them. How can agriculturists get to know about them in those circumstances? Who ever reads the Gazette? I have once or twice had to search through its files to find a particular Order, but the farmers are much too busy to occupy their time with anything of that kind, and I do not think it is an unreasonable request that all the Orders relating to agriculture should be laid on the Table of the House at once, and of those that have been already passed a summary should be made and it should be published at the same time. I hope that the noble Duke will submit this to his chief, and that it will be taken into consideration.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEMy Lords, I dare say that the noble Duke may find it difficult to give any more precise answer than he has yet been able to vouchsafe to my noble friends opposite, but I wish to associate myself with them in pressing him very earnestly to represent to his Department the desire which I think is felt in all parts of your Lordships' House that something should be done to give greater and more timely publicity to these multitudinous Orders. You have at least half a dozen Departments issuing Orders on their own account. It is true that there seems to be some system of consultation 22 between them. That is so much to the good. But what we want is more than that. We want the publication of these documents, so that the persons whom they affect may really know what is the law under which they are living and having their being at the present time. I can understand that there might be some difficulty in doing what we sometimes do—I mean, providing that the Order should not be operative until it has lain on the Table of either House of Parliament for a certain length of time. But without going as far as that, it should surely be possible to provide that from time to time at regular intervals there should be made public a collection of these Orders so far as they affect what my noble friend called just now the agricultural community. The matter is one in which they take a great interest, and I hope that my noble friend will do his best to get it put into a more satisfactory shape.
§ LORD MUIR MACKENZIEMy Lords, I interpose for only a moment, because I am very familiar with the business of laying Orders on the Table of the House. I understood my noble and learned friend on the other side of the House to propose that when the Orders were made they should be laid on the Table, not that they should remain on the Table for a certain length of time before they came into force. There is, of course, a great distinction between those two things. The practice is common in both cases. There are many instances where Orders are laid upon the Table of the House simply for information and where there is no question of delay involved, as there is, of course, in the other practice of saying that an Order shall not come into operation until it has lain for so many days on the Table of the House.
§ LORD PARMOORMy Lords, I may say, as a matter of explanation, that I did not intend to suggest that the Order should not become operative for a period of time. I understand the noble Duke's objection to that. What I did mean is what has been referred to by Lord Lansdowne and by Lord Muir Mackenzie—namely, that the Orders should be laid for the purpose of giving information to the House. On the general question, I hope that after consultation with the heads of the Offices something may be done.