CORN PRODUCTION BILL. (Hansard, 21 August 1917)

§ VISCOUNT MILNER
My Lords, I move that the Commons Reasons for disagreeing and their Amendments to the Lords Amendments be now considered.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
I think your Lordships would be glad if the noble Viscount would make some statement as to the course the Government propose to adopt, and this would appear to be a very appropriate moment for doing so.

§ VISCOUNT MILNER
My Lords, with the permission of the House I will make a brief statement of the position. I do not 686 pretend that the line taken by the Commons with regard to the Amendments passed in this House is altogether what I personally could have wished.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS
Hear, hear.

§ VISCOUNT MILNER
On the other hand, I think noble Lords must all admit that the line which has been taken by the other House is one which has paid very great regard to the Amendments introduced by this House taken as a whole. I do not believe it is possible to contend that the attitude of your Lordships' House and your general views with regard to the Bill have not received full consideration on the part of the Commons. I take it that in a measure of this magnitude and difficulty, where two Houses exist, legislation would be almost impossible unless there was a willingness to compromise; and I think that a very broad spirit of compromise has characterised the action of the other House with regard to the Amendments. As the, President of the Board of Agriculture pointed out in the other House, a great many minor Amendments have been accepted without demur.
There were, three Amendments only of anything like importance on which the House of Commons had to decide, and, with regard to those, the Amendment which was by far the most far-reaching and to which the House of Lords apparently attached far the greatest importance—I mean the Amendment giving a very wide appeal to arbitration in cases where the Board of Agriculture or its agents directed that land should be used for certain purposes to which it is not at present put—that Amendment has been accepted by the House of Commons. I make no secret of the fact that personally I think that this Amendment goes too far, and I am sure that in the opinion of the Board of Agriculture it goes too far; and it was not without difficulty that the House of Commons were induced to accept it. The acceptance of that Amendment, to which you attached such great importance, ought, I think, to weigh greatly with your Lordships in your attitude towards those Amendments which the Commons have not accepted.
I may say that at this stage of the session anything like a sustained difference of opinion between the two Houses would lead to great difficulties and might lead- 687 to the loss of the Bill, which would be a serious national disaster. In these circumstances, and having regard to the fact that the Commons House has met this House with regard to by far the most important and far-reaching Amendment which we had made in it, I think it is desirable on broad grounds of policy that we should not raise difficulties with the Commons about those Amendments which they have not accepted. I am going, therefore, on behalf of the Government, to propose, as we come to these Amendments, that we should not insist upon them. When I do that I frankly admit that I shall be asking your Lordships to accept the decision of the Commons on certain points as to which I think theirs is a wrong decision, but not on any points, as I hope to show, which are of really vital importance. None of the Amendments which I am going to ask your Lordships not to press is of first-rate importance. None of them is of anything like the same importance as the large Amendment to Clause 9 which the Commons have accepted. On these grounds I think that this is essentially a case in which the national interest demands that we should show a spirit of compromise, a spirit which has been shown by the other House; and it is that action which I shall venture to recommend to your Lordships on the various Amendments as they arise.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
My Lords, I am sure your Lordships will have no reason to criticise the tone which the noble Viscount has used in addressing us on this occasion. It is true that the House of Commons have agreed with your Lordships in one very important Amendment. That is a matter of great satisfaction, and I do not think that the noble Viscount went too far in claiming that as an important concession from those in a majority in another place. But I do not think that the noble Viscount gave as much weight as he might have done to the Amendments with which the House of Commons have disagreed. There are two such important Amendments. One was moved by my noble and learned friend Lord Parmoor, and provided a different method of appointing the wages authorities throughout the country, a much better method as your Lordships thought; the other provided for the treatment of the wages of those workmen who are not able bodied, and that. Amendment appears to most of us to be of very great importance indeed. Of 688 course, when the time conies it will be your Lordships' pleasure and duty to discuss the Amendments; but it is very difficult to see how the Bill is going to Work at all as the Commons sent it up to us and as they now return it to us, and it is putting your Lordships in a very difficult position when you are asked not merely to pass that of which you do not approve, but to pass that which you are conscious will not work.
In all the endless discussions with which your Lordships are, I am sorry to say, familiar as to the proper position and function of the Second Chamber, one thing has always been agreed—namely, that it is our business to see that the legislation which passes through our hands comes out in a form which can work. That revising power is always admitted when everything else is refused to your Lordships. Those who hold the most extreme doctrine that upon any matter of policy your Lordships are not entitled to any opinion that does not conform to the opinion of the House of Commons always admit that at any rate the Lords exist to revise the legislation of the House of Commons and to see that it issues from Parliament in a form in which it will work. We shall venture to ask the noble Viscount to explain at the proper moment how the Bill, in the form in which the Commons sent it to us originally and now return it to us in respect of those workmen who are not able-bodied, is to work at all. The penalty of its not working does not fall upon your Lordships or even upon landowners; it does not fall, I need not say, upon the House of Commons—it falls upon these wretched old workmen who, by the carelessness of Parliament, if I may say so with respect, will be placed in a position where they are liable to be discharged by their employers. It is for these reasons that I think your Lordships' Amendment an important one. I do not wish to anticipate the decision to which your Lordships may come upon the question when it has been properly discussed, but I wanted to say what I have said because I did not think that the noble Viscount gave as much weight as he might have done, to this particular Amendment.
Besides the Amendments to which I have referred, there are one or two other Amendments, not of the first importance but substantial Amendments, with which the Commons have disagreed, and to which the noble Viscount did not particularly refer. 689 For example, there is an Amendment as to who will be responsible for paying for the tillages and other compensation due where the Hoard of Agriculture enters upon land in the extreme case. That is an Amendment to which the Commons Lave disagreed, but which appears to us to be, in its main outlines at any rate, of substance, and an Amendment to which it is almost impossible to take exception. And there are others. But these matters will be discussed when the time comes. In conclusion, I should like to say that we quite recognise the difficult position in which the Government are placed, and I am sure that every one of us will do his best to come to a conclusion which will be reasonable in the circumstances.

§ VISCOUNT CHAPLIN
My Lords, I must confess I do not quite follow the views which were expressed by the noble Viscount. He told us at the commencement of his speech that any sustained difference of opinion must inevitably lead to the loss of the Bill. Why is it, then, that this Bill was presented to the other House of Parliament for their consideration at the late hour it was? The noble Viscount now tells us that none of these Amendments is of anything like the importance of the main one that has been accepted by the Government. I am not prepared to dispute that statement. I am inclined to agree that that is one of the most, if not the most, important of all the Amendments that were considered by this House. But there are others—especially the one just referred to by the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury—also of very great importance. Bearing in mind what the noble Viscount has said, I think the Government might have given us more time in which to consider the final arrangement of this most important measure. I will give the House an instance of what I mean. I make no complaint of it, because I know what the pressure is upon them; but it is impossible to derive any clear and sufficient knowledge of the views which have been taken in the other House of Parliament in connection with all these different Amendments from the reports which appear in the public Press. That, I think, cannot be denied. I have just been favoured, through the kindness of a friend, with the OFFICIAL REPORT of the latest proceedings in the House of Commons. Of what use is that to me now? I obtained it not a quarter of an hour before I came into the House, and I had to start imme- 690 diately for the meeting of the House to-day. I hope, therefore, that we shall insist, as we have a right to do, upon an adequate discussion of all these Amendments, and that the Government will bear in mind that they delayed the proceedings in regard to this Bill to such an extent that they must bear the responsibility for whatever may happen, and not we.