§ LORD HARRIS rose to call attention to the delay in issuing discharge papers, and the hardship thereby inflicted on old and deserving soldiers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, in calling attention to an individual case—there are others of a similar character, I believe, but I hope there are not very many—I feel that I owe no apology to your Lordships, for I have made it a rule for a long time never to bring anything before Parliament as long as I could get reasonable satisfaction from the authority immediately concerned. It was only because I was unable to obtain satisfactory replies with regard to this case that I eventually decided to bring it before your Lordships' House; and I extremely regret that I shall have to bother the noble Earl the Secretary of State for War upon it, for he has many more important things to do, and he is really not responsible in any way for the existence of what I submit is a real grievance.
410§ The case is one of a regimental sergeant-major of Yeomanry, who had retired before the war and very patriotically came forward again, and he has served since the commencement of the war some two years with his regiment and subsequently at a station in the South of England, where he filled the same position. On March 3 he applied for transfer to Canterbury, in order that he might serve in a labour battalion. He is an agriculturist by profession, and he thought that he would be of more use in such a battalion than as a regimental sergeant-major where he was. That was approved by his own commanding officer and by the commanding officer at Canterbury, but when he got to a higher authority it was not approved, I fancy because it was thought that there was no room for him. At the same time a substitute was sent down to fill this man's position at the station where he was. There is no complaint about that. He is an old man, and it is better to have younger men. He stayed there some weeks to assist his successor in learning the ways of the office, which he eventually handed over to him.
§ On April 27 this sergeant-major applied for transfer to Class W of the A Reserve, which means that retention is kept on his services but he is free to go to civil employment; and leave was granted for this purpose, pending transfer, on April 28, and he drew pay up to June 7. This is his grievance, that for two months he has drawn no pay, and he has been unable, because he cannot obtain the transfer that he applied for—the transfer to Class W of the A Reserve—to get any civil employment. On July 4 the necessary forms were sent to him to be filled in, and his leave was extended, pending discharge. Then on August 4 he was ordered to report to the officer commanding the agricultural battalion at Canterbury, which he did; but it was found that the establishment had been reduced and there was no room for him in that battalion. That is the position at this moment.
§ On August 11 this man was shown a telegram, asking whether he desired discharge in order to work on his own farm. He has not got a farm at the present moment, but he has been in negotiation, hoping to get his discharge, for two or three farms. Two of them he has lost, and one he is still in negotiation for. But 411 here is the fact, that for two months this man has drawn no pay, and at the same time has been retained by the Army and prevented from taking up civil employment. I think the case is made worse by the fact that this man is an agriculturist, and could have been made of real use in some agricultural employment.
§ As I have said, I never bring cases before Parliament if I can get a reasonably satisfactory answer from the authority immediately concerned. When this man came to me and asked what he had better do—it was some six weeks ago—I said that I would write to the General Officer Commanding, and I had no doubt that I would be able to get the matter expedited. I wrote to the General Officer Commanding the Eastern Command, and after a few days I received a reply that the papers had gone to York, and that the man had no right to appeal to me. I object to that. I consider that any one who feels that he is aggrieved has a right to appeal to one or other of his Members of Parliament, and where I feel that a citizen has been unfairly treated I regard it as my duty and my privilege to take the case up and endeavour to get it settled, privately if possible, but, if not, to bring it before Parliament. I have been unable to get any settlement in this case. It is more than a month since I brought the matter to the notice of the General Officer Commanding; still this man is getting no pay, and is not allowed to obtain civil employment.
§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (THE EARL OF DERBY)My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for having had the courtesy to send me, previous to asking the Question, the particulars of this case; and, if I may say so, I am glad that this case should be raised, because it shows that often the statement that is made by a man to either his Member of Parliament or to some member of your Lordships' House with whom he is acquainted does not accord with the true facts of the case. I would like to give the noble Lord my side of the story. The warrant officer to whom he refers was sent on leave pending a decision as to whether he should be discharged or future military employment found for him. He was never promised a discharge; he was only told that he might go on leave while his case was being considered. This leave was further extended until, being an agriculturist, he was transferred to an agricultural company on July 412 31. He was in receipt of pay and allowances up to May 25.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYThen I think he may have some money to refund. But this is where the discrepancy comes in as between my facts and those of the noble Lord. As this man was working on his own farm—
§ THE EARL OF DERBYMy information is that he has, and that he was not entitled to pay and allowances beyond that date. The noble Lord will understand that this man has never been discharged, and is not entitled to his discharge and character sheets. Towards the end of June this year your Lordships will remember that there was a good deal of pressure brought here and elsewhere for agriculturists to be found for work on the land, and the War Office was ordered to provide a large number of men to be formed into agricultural companies for that purpose. To form these companies warrant and non-commissioned officers were required, and this particular warrant officer was recalled from furlough—because that is what he was on—and transferred to an agricultural company with effect from July 31. From the inquiries which I have made into the case—and I can assure the noble Lord I have gone into it as carefully as I could—no irregularity seems to have taken place, although I appreciate that circumstances may have caused disappointment to the man, who thought, because he was sent on furlough pending the consideration of his case, that this meant that the furlough was going to terminate in his discharge. Every effort is made to avoid delay in issuing discharge papers to men who have been discharged, but in this particular case the man was never discharged and was never entitled to a discharge paper.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYI do not think the noble Lord would regard it as right that a man should draw Army pay for working on his own farm, which is what we contend he was doing. Since the time 413 when the man was called back to an agricultural company, and therefore became at the disposal of the military authorities for use in any agricultural district, he has drawn pay; but while working on his own farm—and I will inquire as to this discrepancy between the noble Lord's information and my own—naturally he, did not draw any pay.
§ VISCOUNT MIDLETONMy Lords, I think my noble friend has practically disposed of this case; but I wish to make one suggestion to him. Most of your Lordships find that cases are brought to your notice from time to time of men who fall into a sort of hiatus between the time of discharge, and the time of pension or of employment. I am not suggesting that the War Office have been wanting in this respect. On the contrary, I think, having regard to the enormous number of men with which they have had to deal, the whole business has been conducted with a degree of promptitude which is wonderful. At the same time I remember that in the last war it became necessary to establish a sort of small clearing house for such cases as fell somehow or other between two stools—that is to say, some official in the War Office to whom application could be sent, and by whom a case which had slipped through could be hunted up. In the last war this was done with great satisfaction; and having regard to the fact that demobilisation must take place some day and that then the business will have to be dealt with on a large scale, I throw out this suggestion for the consideration of my noble friend.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYMy Lords, I am speaking without the details in front of me, so that I would not like to be held entirely to what my impression is. But it is my impression that this is all done now through the Record Offices, and we are endeavouring to strengthen the Record Offices. But the difficulty has been that in this great war, owing to the impossibility of keeping men in the regiments in which they first started, it sometimes happens that the papers of a man go from one Record Office to another. This means delay. We are endeavouring in every way we can to get over that difficulty, and I hope that we shall be able to overcome it.
§ VISCOUNT MIDLETONIf it were known to the public to what Office they 414 should address communications on these matters, it might save a good deal of correspondence.