Lords Sitting of 17 May 1916

Preamble
The Lord Congleton—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his brother.

RETURNS, REPORTS, &c.
Military Service (Civil Liabilities) Committee—Regulations made by the Military Service (Civil Liabilities) Committee with the concurrence of the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury:
Fire Extinguishers Committee—Report of the Committee appointed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department to conduct experiments to test the value of dry powder fire extinguishers as compared with water and other "first aid" appliances for extinguishing or effectively controlling fires such as are likely to be caused by bombs:
Presented (by command) and ordered to lie on the Table.
Universities (Scotland) Act, 1889—Annual Report on the state of the finances of the University of Glasgow under the provisions of Section 30 of the Act for the year 1914–1915:
Lunacy—Report to the Lord Chancellor of the number of visits made, the number of patients seen, and the number of miles travelled by the Visitors of Lunatics, pursuant to the Lunacy Act, 1890, from 1st October 1915 to 31st March 1916:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and ordered to lie on the Table.
College Charter Act, 1871—Petition front Mrs. E. M. Sidgwick, Widow, and others, praying for the grant of a Charter to Newnham College, Cambridge, together with Draft Charter applied for: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table, and to be printed. (No. 37.)

LEGISLATION BY REFERENCE.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, I desire to ask a question of the Government with regard to the Military Service Bill, and perhaps it will be convenient that I should do so before the
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ordinary business of the House. The Military Service Bill was circulated this morning, and I believe it is going to be read a first time to-day and a second time to-morrow. The system of legislation by reference has been carried in this Bill to a most extraordinary extent. If your Lordships will look at the measure you will see that almost every clause in it refers to a section in some other Act, and repeals or alters it or substitutes new words. On receiving the Bill I tried to read it, but I could not understand in the least what it was about. If one had the advantage of the Government draftsman's assistance, then one would be able to understand it; but as placed before the House the Bill is, to me at any rate, absolutely unintelligible. The Government draftsmen have adopted this system of legislation by reference and I suppose they will continue the practice, but where they do so a Memorandum ought certainly to be circulated with the Bill explaining the effect of each individual clause which proposes to alter the existing law. It is only in that way that we can arrive at the real meaning of the changes proposed to be made. Your Lordships may go to the Library and hunt about in the Acts of Parliament referred to, and it is even then very doubtful whether you will be able directly to appreciate the changes which are proposed. I hope, not with regard to the Military Service Bill alone but with regard to every Government Bill in which the legislation is by reference, that a Memorandum will be circulated to inform the House what the contents of the Bill mean. The present practice is becoming a serious nuisance.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, my noble friend, who is a great stickler for regularity in our proceedings, has, I am afraid, been guilty of a great irregularity in the speech which he has just made; for he has been commenting upon a Bill which is not yet before the House, though hope it will be read a first time before we are much older. But I have no doubt your Lordships will overlook the offence, if it be one, and permit me to say two or three words in reply to my noble friend. He complains that the Military Service Bill is a glaring example of the practice of legislation by reference, which we all of us dislike, and which I have heard again and again condemned in this House. I admit that. On the other hand, I think I am right in saving that most of

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the Statutes to which reference is made in this Bill are of quite recent date, and they are therefore Statutes with which those of your Lordships who have paid attention to this subject are fairly familiar. At any rate, so far as the practical proposal is concerned I am afraid it would be quite out of the question now to redraft this Bill and to require it to recommence its Parliamentary career. I am also told that if all references had been dispensed with in the Bill, the measure would have assumed the most unwieldy proportions. My noble friend made a suggestion, which I certainly should not wish to brush on one side—namely, that in the case of a complicated measure it would be for the convenience of your Lordships' House if the Government were to circulate with the Bill a Memorandum explanatory of its contents. I rather think that has been done on some occasions; but there would have been a difficulty in this case, for the Memorandum obviously could not have been at all complete until the Bill had passed through the House of Commons, and that, as my noble friend knows, only took place a few hours ago. I admit that the Bill as we have it is complicated and requires a certain amount of attention before it can be understood, but I feel quite sure that my noble friend's capacity for tackling intricate questions will enable him without difficulty to master the contents of the measure.

MILITARY SERVICE BILL.
Brought from the Commons.
LORD SANDHURST: My Lords, I move that the Bill be read a first time.
Moved, that the Bill be now read la—(Lord Sandhurst.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I do not know whether this would be as appropriate occasion on which to ask the Government what they propose with regard to the future proceedings on this Bill. Apparently there is to be no discussion on the First Reading, as no noble Lord rose to address the House on the Motion being moved. Therefore I should like to ask what is proposed with regard to the Second Reading and the subsequent stages of the Bill.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF CREWE): My Lords, it seemed possible that there might have been some discussion upon the
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First Reading to-day if noble Lords had so desired, but unless it is the wish of the House to proceed with any general discussion on the subject now my noble friend who is in charge of the Bill proposes to take the Second Reading to-morrow. It will clearly be desirable that some interval should be allowed between the Second Reading and the Committee stage. It is true that the authorities desire that the Bill should be passed into law as soon as possible, for reasons on which it, is needless to dwell; they are obvious from the character of the Bill itself. I think, therefore, that the House will probably be willing to proceed with the Committee stage on Monday next, and then it can be seen whether the Bill can be passed through its remaining stages on that day or whether a day's further discussion is required.
THE EARL OF CROMER: In that case will the Second Reading of the Government of India Bill be taken to-morrow?
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I have not had an opportunity of consulting my noble friend who is in charge of that Bill, but it will probably, I think, be desirable to postpone it for a day or two. Although it ought not to occupy a very long time, it is a Bill of no small importance; and probably it will be thought wise to devote the whole of to-morrow's sitting to the Military Service Bill.
LORD COURTNEY OF PENWITH: My Lords, with regard to the Military Service Bill, the First Reading of which is now before the House, I confess that I was under the impression that the Government were going to move the Second Reading at once, as they passed a Motion yesterday suspending the Standing Order for the week. I am glad, however, that this is not their intention. But I rise for the purpose of suggesting that when the Second Reading is taken to-morrow we should have from the noble Lord in charge of the Bill a sketch of the Amendments which the Government themselves propose to make in the Bill. As far as we can understand from the imperfect reports which have reached us of what happened elsewhere, the Government are under pledges to make certain very important Amendments; and it would be inconvenient that those Amendments should come for the first time to our knowledge when we are submitting Amendments in Committee. Therefore I suggest that the

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noble Lord who is in charge of the Bill should take the opportunity to-morrow of explaining, not only the scope of the Bill, but the way in which it is proposed by the Government that it should be amended.
LORD SANDHURST: I will certainly do my best to meet the wishes of the noble Lord.
On Question, Bill read la; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow (The Lord Sandhurst). (No.34.)

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL. [H.L.]
Second Reading (which stands appointed for To-morrow) put off to Tuesday next.

THE CALF ORDER.
LORD STRACHIE: My Lords, I rise to put the Question standing in my name—viz., to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he will amend the Calf Order so as to exempt all bull calves from its provisions in view of the shortage of keep and of the fact that the War Office have commandeered all hay.
THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, my noble friend Lord Selborne is unable to be present to-day, and has asked me to reply to the noble Lord's Question on his behalf. The President of the Board of Agriculture has no evidence of any general shortage of keep in the country, and as the Order of the Army Council expressly provides that farmers and stock breeders are authorised to use the normal quantity of hay, or oat, or wheat straw in their possession for consumption by stock in their possession or control, he does not propose to make any amendment in the Order in question.

SUMMER TIME BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Marquess of Lansdowne.)
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I must apologise to the House for not being present yesterday on the occasion of the Second Reading of this Bill. Had I been here, I should certainly have associated
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myself with the protest made by the noble Marquess on this Bench (Lord Salisbury); had it been at all possible to induce him to do so I should have incited him to divide against the Bill, because personally I think it is the most ridiculous and absurd Bill that has ever been presented to Parliament. I never thought for a moment that the Standing Order would have been suspended and the First and Second Readings of the Bill taken on the same day; and as I was detained in Scotland, this is, therefore, the only chance I have of making my protest, and I will do so in a very few words. It seems to me that it was a most unusual course to have taken the First and Second Readings of the Bill on the same day, and that really the Standing Orders of this House are not of much more regularity and validity than the movements of the sun and the British Constitution, which were both alluded to in the same sense yesterday.
I know quite well that it is hopeless now to oppose the Bill. I congratulate myself that at any rate it is ostensibly a Bill only for the duration of the war, and that the chief reason put forward on its behalf is that there will be a certain economy and saving of light and of coal during a portion of the year. I sincerely hope that it will be recognised on all sides that it is put forward as a temporary war measure, and that if we do not oppose it strenuously on this occasion it is because we trust that before it becomes a permanent institution of the country a real opportunity will be given of considering it. In my humble opinion I prophesy—we will see whether my prophesy comes true—that it will be a very serious burden on the, in the Parliamentary sense, least articulate portion of the population. I believe it will do an immense amount of injury to the women of the working classes. They will have to get up an hour earlier in the morning than they do at the present time, and although the clock will decree the ordinary hour of going to bed when it comes to evening I believe that the children for whom they are responsible and the male population will be sitting up later owing to the length of daylight, and that they will have their period of rest curtailed. I think this is very hard upon the women of the working classes, and I believe this will be one of the evil effects of the Bill. And I do not myself for a moment believe that children will go to bed before daylight ends; they, too, will be deprived of a certain part of their rest.

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I have had a good many representations from those engaged in agriculture in Scotland, showing that so far as Scotland is concerned this is a foolish measure. In harvest time it is often difficult to lead crops from the fields into the stack-yard on account of dew or mist which has not cleared off in the morning. Many a time have known in my own part of the country framers unable to get on the land for that purpose until eleven o'clock in the day. Under this new arrangement it will be twelve by the cock, and that is half the working clay of the farm. The result will be that they will have to pay for extra time or they will have to spread their harvest over a longer period, with the risk of the corn being damaged. All these things are prophecy. I know that it is hopeless to attempt to oppose the Bill at the present time, but I do not believe that it has been half thought out, and I am confident that there will be a great many unforeseen difficulties.
I will mention one difficulty which has been suggested to me. Some of your Lordships will no doubt think it almost of a comic character, but I should like the lawyers in the House to consider what the effect of it will be. I ask your Lordships to carry your minds forward to the night of October when the clock is to be set back. At one o'clock the clock will be put back to midnight. Supposing some unfortunate lady is confined on that occasion with twins, and one child is born at ten minutes before one o'clock. If the clock is put back, the registration of the time of birth of the two children will be reversed, and the second one will be born fifty minutes before the other child born before it. Your Lordships laugh. I fully expected it. But, just think for a moment, if some remedy is not found, of the difficulties in regard to property, to title to sit in your Lordships' House, it may be, conceivable under this alteration. I know it is a chance in a thousand or in two thousand that such a thing should happen, but I venture to think it is worth considering that these sort of things are possible under the provisions of this ill-considered and hastily-passed measure.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I have been in favour of this amendment of the law from the time that it was first brought forward, and I was, in fact, going to suggest to the Government to-day, although I fear that there is no real opportunity for
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amendment, that the Bill should be amended so as to make it possible to continue it in force without passing a fresh Bill. Subsection (2) of Clause 1 at present provides that—
"His Majesty may in any subsequent year, by Order in Council made during the continuance of the present war, declare this Act to be in force duringthat year."
I was going to suggest to His Majesty's Government that they might take out the words "made during the continuance of the present war." The Act could still only be extended by an Order in Council, and no difficulty would be experienced in ascertaining the sense of either House of Parliament as to whether or not such an Order in Council should be made in any subsequent year. If, however, it were desired to secure that Parliament should have an opportunity of intervening, the Bill might be limited in time and be included in the Expiring Laws Continuance Act if it was desired to continue it. But after the speech of Lord Balfour of Burleigh, I feel that any suggestion to extend the Bill or to make it more permanent might not be favourably received. Those who support this change will probably have to wait for the experience which we shall get to show how it works. My own belief is that after we have had one summer's experience of it we shall all be enthusiastic in its favour and wonder why the change was not made before. If the only argument against the Bill is the exceptional case of the midnight twins, I think there will be no difficulty in the registrar, by orders of his own, prescribing for that event.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I learn with great concern that my noble friend Lord Balfour regards this measure as one of the most ridiculous which he has ever encountered during his Parliamentary career; and I only say, in reply, that if he is inclined to pour ridicule upon it, there are a great many other people whose influence is by no means negligible who are of an entirely different opinion. The fact, at any rate, remains that this Bill passed through the House of Commons without a dissentient voice, and that it is supported by a very large body of business opinion out of doors from quarters some of which I described to your Lordships when I addressed you on the subject last night, I admitted then, and I admit now, that there probably will be cases in which the change may produce a certain amount of

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inconvenience to industries carried on under somewhat exceptional circumstances, and it is quite likely that in the case of agriculture inconvenience may arise, and for the reason that my noble friend mentioned—namely, that there are some agricultural operations which cannot be carried on at a very early hour in the morning. But that point has been considered, and I am able to say that the Scottish Board of Agriculture and the Board of Agriculture here are both supporters of the Bill with a full knowledge of all its effects. I will not pursue seriously the extremely humorous suggestion made by my noble friend in regard to the possibility of the arrival of midnight twins at the particular moment when the clock was going to be put back again. Solvuntur risu tabulœ I do not think we need take that as a very serious objection. But I am able to reassure my noble friend to this extent, at all events, that we put forward this Bill and ask to have it passed hurriedly through Parliament upon the ground that we regard it as a measure especially valuable at this time, when the country is engaged in a great war and is consequently obliged to husband its resources as much as possible. The Bill, as my noble friend is aware, is a Bill which can be renewed de anno in annum, but only so long as the war lasts. I am inclined to think, with the noble Earl on the Back Bench, that when the time comes people will be by no means desirous of going back to the old order. But for the present we are quite content to propose
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this measure as a temporary and experimental one, justified by the special circumstances of the time.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Bill reported without amendment: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Bill read 3a, and passed.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
The following seven Bills received the Royal Assent—

Local Government (Emergency Provisions).

Courts (Emergency Powers) (Amendment).

Summer Time.

Edinburgh Corporation Order Confirmation.

Gas Provisional Orders.

Burnley Corporation.

Weston-super-Mare Grand Pier.

House adjourned at half-past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.