Lords Sitting of 9 May 1916

Preamble
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
Saint John's Church, Kingston-upon-Hull.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

CLAYTON ANILINE COMPANY (RAILWAYS).
(Petition for Bill.)
The meeting of the Standing Orders Committee (which stands appointed for Thursday next) put off sine die.

GAS PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
Reported, without amendment, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
HORNSEY GAS BILL. [H.L.]
  NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE AND GATES- HEAD GAS BILL. [H.L.]
  Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bills, no parties having appeared in opposition thereto; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The Orders made on the 9th of March and 13th of April last discharged, and Bills committed.

RETURNS, REPORTS, &c.
Education (Scotland)—Minute of the Committee of Council on Education in Scotland, dated 8th May, 1916, continu-
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ing the operations of the Code of Regulations for Continuation Classes, 1915, with certain modifications:
Presented (by command) and ordered to lie on the Table.
Army (Territorial Force)—Scheme made by the Army Council for the establishment and constitution of an Association for the county of Stirling under the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act, 1907:
India—

1. (Estimate)—Estimate of Revenue and Expenditure cf the Government of India for the year 1915–1916, compared with the results of 1914–1915;

2. (Home Accounts)—Home Accounts of the Government of India;

3. (Finance and Revenue Accounts)—Finance and Revenue Accounts of the Government of India for the year 1914–1915:

Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and ordered to lie on the Table.

CASUALTIES IN IRELAND.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: My Lords, I wish to ask the noble and gallant Earl the Secretary of State for War a Question of which I have given him private notice—namely, whether he is in a position to tell the House the numbers of the military casualties in the recent disturbances in Ireland.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (EARL KITCHENER): My Lords, from the latest information the casualties in Ireland are: Army—officers killed, 17; wounded, 46; other ranks, killed, 86; wounded, 311. Royal Navy—other ranks, killed, 1; wounded, 2. Royal Irish Constabulary—killed, 12; wounded, 23. Dublin Metropolitan Police—killed, 3; wounded, 3. Loyal Volunteers—killed, 5; wounded, 3. Total killed, 124; wounded, 388.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: Do those figures include members of the Royal Irish Con stabulary wounded in other parts of the country besides Dublin?
EARL KITCHENER: The information has been received by telegraph to-day, and I believe it includes the figures for every part of Ireland to date.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS) BILL.
Commons Amendments to Lords Amendment considered (according to Order).

LORDS AMENDMENT.
After Clause 19 insert as a new clause:
"Prohibition of establishment of new routes for omnibuses.
".—(1) Notwithstanding anything in any statute it shall not be lawful after the passing of this Act for any omnibus to ply for hire on or use any route which has not been regularly used by omnibuses plying for hire within twelve months prior to the first day of March nineteen hundred and sixteen, except with the consent of the highway authority, or, if more than one, every highway authority liable for the maintenance and repair of the highways along which the route runs, which consent may be given on such conditions as the highway authority may consider fit, or, if such consent is unreasonably refused, without the consent of the Local Government Board; and if any person drives an omnibus or allows an omnibus to be driven along any route in contravention of this provision, he shall, on summary conviction, be liable to a fine not exceeding fire pounds and to a further penalty not exceeding forty shillings for every mile travelled by every omnibus in contravention of the provisions of this section, all penalties recoverable under this section to be paid into the funds of the highway authority concerned.
Provided that nothing in this section shall apply where a route is altered in consequence of the temporary diversion of traffic on account of the breaking up of any road or in pursuance of the directions of any police authority or other directions lawfully given.
Provided also that nothing in this section shall apply to any omnibus plying for hire on any route in any case where the Admiralty, Army Council, or Minister of Munitions are of opinion that an omnibus service is necessary for and is to be used solely by munition workers or other persons engaged on Government war service.
(2) This section shall not be deemed to detract from any existing powers of highway authorities in regard to omnibuses.
(3) For the purposes of this section the expression "omnibus" includes every omnibus, char-a-banc, wagonette, brake, stage coach, or other carriage plying for hire or used to carry passengers at separate fares."
The Commons agree to this Amendment with the following amendments:
Line 4, leave out ("twelve months") and insert ("two years")
Line 10, after ("if") insert ("in the opinion of the Local Government Board")
Line 11, after ("refused,") insert ("or if such conditions are unreasonable")
Line 26 after ("on") insert ("or using")
Line 28, leave out ("solely")
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, it will be withing the recollection of the House that when this Bill was before your Lordships in Committee the insertion of this new
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clause was moved by the noble Earl, Lord Northbrook, at the instance of the County Councils Association, and that the new clause was accepted by the Government. The object of the noble Earl's clause was to prevent further wear and tear to main roads by omnibuses except in cases where the roads had been regularly used by omnibuses plying for hire within a period of twelve months prior to March 1, 1916. In the House of Commons the Government accepted an Amendment to this new clause altering the period prior to March 1, 1916, from twelve months to two years. The purpose of the Commons Amendment was to enable routes to be reopened if they bad been in use within the last two years. It was represented that there were some routes in use by omnibuses in the summer of 1914 which ceased to be so used shortly after the outbreak of the war, and that it might be desirable to use them again during the course of this summer. The point is of importance in districts where large munition works are in existence, in the neighbourhood of which families of munition workers have settled for a time. It is desirable to give reasonable facilities to munition workers to reach their places of employment by omnibus, especially as at the present time there is in the neighbourhood of some of these new munition works almost a famine in house accommodation. I move that your Lordships agree with the first of the Commons Amendments.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Hylton.)
THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: My Lords, I would rather that the words "twelve months" had been retained, because I believe the proposal was a reasonable one. I admit, however, that it is possible that certain routes have not been used during the twelve months prior to March 1 last owing to the omnibuses previously plying on them having been taken for military purposes; and as it is considered desirable by the Local Government Board that a period of two years should be substituted for twelve months in this clause, I do not wish to oppose it. I may say, however, that I do not quite follow the noble Lord's argument with regard to the necessity of the Commons Amendment in the interests of persons employed in munition factories. That case, I should have thought, would

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have been covered by the last paragraph of subsection (1), which provides that nothing in the clause shall apply to any omnibus plying for hire on any route in any case where the omnibus service is necessary for and is used by munition workers or other persons engaged on Government war service. I do not wish, however, to oppose the Commons Amendment.
VISCOUNT GALWAY: My Lords, I hope we shall have an assurance from His Majesty's Government that there is clearly a right of appeal to the Local Government Board in any case where the highway authority think they have been wronged in this matter.
LORD HYLTON: The point raised by the noble Viscount will be met by the next two Commons Amendments.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
LORD HYLTON: Perhaps it will be for the convenience of the House that I should take the next two Commons Amendments together. They are, after the word "if" in the middle of subsection (1) ["on such conditions as the highway authority may consider fit, or, if"] to insert "in the opinion of the Local Government Board"; and five words further on, after the word "refused," to insert "or if such conditions are unreasonable." The Local Government Board hold that these two Amendments will carry out the wish of the noble Viscount (Lord Galway). They will enable the Board to determine whether or not a refusal or the condition attached to an assent is reasonable.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Hylton.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I may be very stupid, but I am quite unable to construe the clause as it stands, or even with the addition of the Commons Amendments to which we are now asked to agree. The words in subsection (1) "without the sanction of the Local Government Board" appear to me to have no meaning whatever in the connection in which they are used. The subsection, as proposed to be amended, runs as follows—
"Notwithstanding anything in any statute it shall not be lawful after the passing of this Act
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for any omnibus to ply for hire on or use any route which has not been regularly used by Omnibuses plying for hire within two years prior to the first day of March nineteen hundred and sixteen, except with the consent of the highway authority or, if more than one, every highway authority liable for the maintenance and repair of the highways along which the route runs, which consent may be given on such conditions as the highway authority may consider fit, or, if in the opinion of the Local Government Board such consent is unreasonably refused, or if such conditions are unreasonable, without the consent of the Local Government Board."
These last words do not seem to me to have any meaning. I should have thought that what was intended was that, in the case of unreasonable refusal, the Local Government Board should be able to override the highway authority.
LORD HYLTON: That is so.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Then the word "without" is void of meaning.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD BUCKMASTER): My Lords, I venture to think that the words are quite capable of a sensible interpretation. As I understand the clause, it provides that omnibuses shall not run without first of all the consent of the highway authority, and if, in the opinion of the Local Government Board, such consent is unreasonably refused, then they shall not run without the consent of the Local Government Board.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: The clause says "except with the consent of the highway authority." Surely it ought to go on to say "or … except with the consent of the Local Government Board."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: First of all the highway authority is the body to grant the consent. If that consent is not granted and in the opinion of the Local Government Board it is unreasonably refused, then the omnibuses shall not run without the consent of the Local Government Board. I submit that the provision is capable of sensible and effectual meaning.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: Surely the word should be "with." If the consent of the highway authority is unreasonably refused, then the omnibuses can be run only with the consent of the Local Government Board. It cannot be "without."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I do not know that there is much difference here between "with" or "without." I am not sure that either word will not do in this connection. The point is that the omnibuses shall not be run except with the consent of the highway authority. If that consent is unreasonably withheld, then they shall not be run without the consent of the Local Government Board. I should have thought it was perfectly clear.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: If the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack is satisfied, who am I to resist him? But if he thinks there is any doubt whatever, now is his opportunity of setting it right.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF CREWE): May I take a hand in this game, purely as a bystander? It seems to me that the two terms "except with" and "without" are alternative terms. The mistake that I venture to think the noble Marquess opposite has made is in putting a comma, in his mind, after the word "except," and taking the alternatives as "except with" and "except without." That is not the case. The alternatives are "except with" on the one hand, and "without" on the other.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
LORD HYLTON: The fourth Amendment made by the Commons is in the proviso at the end of subsection (1) of this clause. It is, after the words "plying for hire on,"
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to insert "or using." It is desired to extend the operation of this proviso in favour of Government war workers to omnibuses which use a route but do not ply for hire upon it. Your Lordships can imagine an omnibus being filled up at its starting point and not requiring to stop until it reaches the munition factory. It should have power to use the roads on its line of route just as it would if it were plying for hire along the route. This Amendment is really consequential on the words "or use" at the beginning of subsection (1) of this clause.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Hylton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
LORD HYLTON: The fifth and last of the Commons Amendments is to delete the word "solely" from the proviso at the end of subsection (1). It is held to be impracticable to provide any service of omnibuses if the service is limited solely to munition workers, as the conductor could not determine whether a man or woman who hailed the 'bus was a munition worker or not.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amnedment—(Lord Hylton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at a quarter before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.