Lords Sitting of 20 January 1916

Preamble
The Viscount EXMOUTH—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

PEER ADJUDICATED BANKRUPT.
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEESinformed the House that the Lord Chancellor had received from the Senior Registrar in Bankruptcy of the High Court of Justice, a certificate under the Seal of the said Court, stating that the Right Honourable William Angus Drop Montagu, Duke of Manchester, being a Peer of the Realm, was adjudicated bankrupt on the 12th day of January, 1916:
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

RETURNS, REPORTS, &c.
Births, Deaths, and Marriages (Scotland)—Sixtieth Annual Report of the Registrar General for Scotland, 1914: Presented (by command) and ordered to lie on the Table.
India (Legislative Councils)—Revised Regulations relating to Imperial and Provincial Legislative Councils, incorporating amendments made from time to time:
Local Taxation (Ireland)—Account of Receipts and Payments for the financial year ended 31st March, 1915:
Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland—Black Scab in Potatoes (Special Area, Ireland) Order, 1916:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and ordered to lie on the Table.

NAVAL FORCES (SERVICE ON SHORE) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2:
Short title.
2. This Act may be cited as the Naval Forces (Service on Shore) Act, 1916.
THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, the Amendment standing in my name to this clause is the one which was promised in another place. It has the effect of limiting the operation of the Bill to the period of the war and six months thereafter, and I hope that after what passed elsewhere your Lordships will agree to its insertion.
Amendment moved—
Clause 2, after line 14 insert the following new subsection:
"(2) This Act shall have effect only during the continuance of the present war and a period of six months thereafter."—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to. Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
The Report of Amendment to be received on Tuesday next, and Standing Order No. XXXIX to be considered in order to its being dispensed with.

ALIEN TRADERS.
VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN: My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government whether, in view of the widespread demand for information, the Government will publish—

1. A list of the names of all traders, firms, or companies with whom they have dealt or are dealing since 4th August, 1914 — (a) British; (b) neutral.

2. List of licences to trade granted to alien traders, firms, or companies in this country.

3. List of traders, firms, or companies with whom His Majesty's Government have dealt or are dealing since August 4, 1914, and who have licences to trade with alien firms in this country or enemy countries.

4. List of aliens who have been naturalised in this country who are now or have been employed since August 4, 1914, directly or indirectly, by His Majesty's Government, the nature of such employment, and the payments connected therewith.

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5. List of firms or companies predominately naturalised alien in character with whom the Government have entered into contracts since August 4, 1914.

THE MARQUESS or LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I hope the noble Viscount will not take it amiss if I mention to him one or two reasons for which, in my opinion, it would be very undesirable that he should press His Majesty's Government to provide him with the copious information for which he seeks in this series of Questions. The noble Viscount did riot preface his inquiry by any explanation, but I infer from the contents of his Questions that he is not quite satisfied that His Majesty's Government are sufficiently careful as to the people with whom they deal themselves, or as to those whom they allow to carry on business in this country. The Questions suggest the idea that we deal with aliens—and I think by aliens the noble Viscount means enemy aliens—ourselves, that we grant licences to such aliens, that we deal with firms who themselves trade with aliens, and that we are not sufficiently careful how we deal with firms or companies controlled by persons of alien origin but naturalised in this country. That is the inference which I think I am justified in drawing from the terms of the noble Viscount's Questions.
The noble Viscount desires to elicit from us a great mass of information, I presume with the object of strengthening the case for legislation in regard to these matters. I take his first Question. In it he asks whether we will publish a list of all traders, firms, or companies with whom we have dealt or are dealing since August 4, 1914. Has the noble Viscount considered the colossal dimensions of the kind of list which would have to be produced in order to satisfy his curiosity? It would include traders and firms with whom we deal in this country, in our Oversea Dominions, and, I presume, in all foreign countries except those with which we are at war. I do not think it is an exaggeration to say that if such a list were to be compiled we should have to present to Parliament, not one volume, but a series of volumes of considerable bulk; and I should hesitate very much at a moment like this to press upon the Departments concerned, which are numerous, the work of compiling such a Return.
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Then let me take the second Question. The noble Viscount asks for a list of licences granted to alien traders, firms, or companies in this country. I do not know whether the noble Viscount is aware exactly how matters stand at present with regard to this question. He will find that under Article 3 of the Proclamation of September 9, 1914, the expression "enemy" is defined as meaning a person or a body of persons, of whatever nationality, resident or carrying on business in an enemy country, but it does not include persons of enemy nationality who are neither resident nor carrying on business in an enemy country. From that it follows that prima facie enemy subjects in this country, or branches of enemy firms in this country, are not prohibited from trading here, and that no licence is required by other firms here in order to enable those other firms to deal with such companies. But, of course—and I am sure the noble Viscount is aware of it—although that is the position, enemy firms so circumstanced have to carry on their business under very strict supervision, a supervision which can, if necessary, be strengthened into control, and which will be still further strengthened by legislation now actually in progress, of which I shall say a word in a moment. As to licences, in eases where the business is not incorporated as a British company and where the proprietor or any one of the proprietors is in an enemy country, and where, therefore, the representative of the firm would be precluded from trading here, it has occasionally been found necessary in the public interest to grant a licence with the object of enabling the firm to carry on a business the extinction of which would on public grounds have been highly undesirable and inconvenient. I am able to tell the noble Viscount that cases in which licences of this kind have been granted have been rare. I can only find that seventeen such licences altogether have been granted, two of which were granted to firms connected not with enemy countries but with neutrals; and in a considerable number of cases applications for licences of this kind have been refused.
In his third Question the noble Viscount asks for a list of traders, firms, or companies with whom His Majesty's Government have dealt or are dealing since August 4, 1914, and who have licences to trade with alien firms in this country or in enemy countries. What I said a

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moment ago dealt, I think, sufficiently with the case of the alien firm a branch of which is authorised to trade in this country; no licence is required to trade with such a firm. With regard to trading with alien firms in an enemy country, I have not been able to obtain any information suggestive of the idea that there is any practice of granting licences to British firms to trade with enemy firms in an enemy country. If the noble Viscount has any special information on the subject and will kindly impart it to me privately, I will make it my business to ascertain whether there may have been any cases in which, for wholly special reasons, an arrangement of this kind may have been permitted.
Then in his fourth Question the noble Viscount asks for a list of aliens who have been naturalised in this country and who are now or have been employed since August 4, 1914, directly or indirectly, by His Majesty's Government, the nature of such employment, and the payments connected therewith. I am afraid that would mean another volume to be added to the series for which the noble Viscount asks. The list would apparently include all persons of alien origin, no matter when they were naturalised, and all such persons directly or indirectly employed by the Government, whether in connection with commercial transactions or in the service of the Government of this country. The Return would also have to specify the nature of the employment and the payments connected therewith, whatever that may mean. I presume it would mean, in the case of employees, the salaries paid out of public funds, and in the case of commercial transactions the figure corresponding with the amount of those transactions. I venture to think that the compilation of that Return would be very nearly an impossible, and certainly a very unprofitable, task.
I pass to the next and last Question. The noble Viscount asks for a list of firms or companies predominately naturalised alien in character with whom the Government have entered into contracts since August 4, 1914. I do not know exactly what the formula which the noble Viscount employs signifies. I presume that he had in his mind firms in which naturalised aliens have a predominant interest.
VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN indicated assent.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I gather that the noble Viscount agrees. I suggest that it does not in the least follow, because a particular firm contains a certain number of members who are naturalised aliens, that that firm should therefore of necessity be treated as one with which patriotic citizens of this country have no right to deal. I admit that in many cases there may be excellent reasons for watching carefully over the proceedings of such a firm; and that can be done, and is done, under the arrangements which now prevail.
I am afraid I have thrown rather a copious douche of cold water upon the noble Viscount's proposal, but I would beg him to consider in the first place whether he is not asking for a great deal of information which is not strictly relevant to the matter he has in view, and also whether we really at this moment have a right to ask the Public Departments concerned to set aside the work upon which they are engaged, and which, as we all know, already taxes their energies to the full, in order to embark upon this great work of compiling Returns in pursuance of the noble Viscount's Motion. I see my noble friend Lord Midleton on the Front Bench opposite, and I venture to say that I feel quite sure the Committee over which he presides, and which is so vigorously dealing with the question of public economy would certainly give no encouragement to this particular enterprise.
But if I may attempt to offer the noble Viscount one word of consolation before I sit down, let me assure him that this question—and it is a very important question—is not escaping attention at the present time. His Majesty's Government already enjoy extensive powers under the Trading with the Enemy Act of 1914, the Act to which reference was made in a discussion in this House not many weeks ago, and under which the Government have the power to supervise, inspect, and, if necessary control firms whose proceedings may be open to any degree of suspicion. But that is not all. Two days ago there was introduced into the other House of Parliament a Bill further amending the Trading with the Enemy Acts and conferring upon the Government powers so drastic that I cannot help thinking the House will recognise that, armed with

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those powers, there should be no difficulty at all in exercising sufficient control over any firms which may be suspected of carrying on their business in the interests or to the advantage of the enemy. I have here a copy of the Bill, and I will read an extract from the first clause—
"Where it appears to the Board of Trade that the business carried on in the United Kingdom by any person, firm, or company is, by reason of the enemy nationality or enemy association of that person, firm, or company, or of the members of that firm or company or any of them, or otherwise, carried on wholly or mainly for the benefit of or under the control of subjects of any State at war with His Majesty, the Board of Trade shall, unless for any reason it appears to them inexpedient to do so, make an order either prohibiting the person, firm, or company from carrying on the business … or requiring the business to be wound up."
It would be difficult to arm a Public Department with more drastic powers. There is another clause under which the Board of Trade is empowered to appoint inspectors and supervisors of businesses
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carried on by any person, firm, or company in the United Kingdom, for the purpose of ascertaining whether the business is carried on for the benefit of or under the control of subjects of any State at war with His Majesty; and, finally, there is a clause enabling the Board of Trade to vest the enemy property in a custodian. Those are very extensive powers, and I hope, now that the noble Viscount is aware that those powers are about to be asked for—and if they are asked for he may depend upon it that it is intended to use them—he will not think it necessary to press the House further to supply him with the great mass of information for which he has asked.
VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN: My Lords, I thank the noble Marquess for the great care he has given to these Questions, and I will for the present allow the matter to drop.
House adjourned at five minutes before Five o'clock, till Tomorrow, half past Ten o'clock.