HL Deb 03 August 1916 vol 22 cc1103-15

LORD HARRIS rose to call attention to the present system of posting of recruits, and to the lack of sympathy with local sentiment displayed thereby; and to move to resolve—

That this House deprecates a departure from the system of recruitment, recognised by Lord Cardwell in the case of the Regular Army and confirmed by Lord Haldane in forming the Territorial Army, whereby recruits were encouraged to prefer enlistment in their county regiments.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I make no apology for bringing the subject-matter of my Motion before your Lordships, because I am satisfied that the principle to which I refer in it is one of profound interest not only throughout every county in the United Kingdom but in every area of any part of the Empire from which troops have been drawn. Every locality takes a profound personal interest in the men who have been recruited in its neighbourhood and has shown its desire to follow their fortune in the field, to assist them there to the utmost of its power with comforts, and, when they come home, whether wounded or sound, to welcome them with open arms. I have—and I know that some of my noble friends have—the gravest suspicion that this principle to which I refer is being discarded.

I think I ought, in the first place, to substantiate the reference I make to that very distinguished Minister of War, Lord Cardwell. In the wording of my Motion as first put down I used the word "inaugurated" incorrectly, and after discussion with a distinguished military historian I have substituted the word "recognised," because it was pointed out to me that unquestionably before Lord Cardwell went to the War Office there had been a territorial system in existence—that is to say, there had been regiments closely connected with certain counties. But I submit that it was the introduction of the double battalion system by Lord Cardwell—the setting up of the large and the small depots, and the bringing into each of the counties concerned another regiment not hitherto connected with that particular county—which inaugurated the new territorial idea. Well, it did not make very rapid advance, certainly not as regards officers. It did as regards the men, because there were the depots, and the county men were more likely to go to their county depots than to others. Even in the latter 'eighties there was no inclination on the part of officers to join their county regiments; at any rate, that was my experience. They were far more inclined to join the regiments to which their college or school friends belonged. I may say, as regards myself, that from the day when I had connection with the War Office and with this territorial system, it has been a matter of the most profound interest with me to encourage as far as I could the recognition of local sentiment and to encourage in the county itself an interest in the county regiments.

The incident which changed all this want of interest was the South African War. Suddenly the cadres of the Yeomanry and the Volunteers were called upon to do some practical work in fitting out bodies of troops, and they had, of course, to call upon the enthusiasm and the patriotism of their neighbours, and the result was an immense extension of local sentiment in local units. The gentry as well as other classes joined those units, and funds were raised in the several counties with which to equip, indeed to more than equip, those units. And when they came back from that war they were welcomed with open arms. From that day local territorial sentiment with the military units of the county was firmly established, so firmly established that when the noble Viscount, Lord Haldane, introduced his Territorial scheme, he found that from the point of view of local sentiment he had an easy task.

It is not only as regards the Army that this feeling has taken hold of comparatively small areas. The other day there was a most touching illustration of what I mean. I was present on the occasion when the storm-and battle-worn flags of H.M.S."Kent" were hoisted to their last place in the bosom of the mother church in Canterbury Cathedral. Those emblems of our naval might were borne through the streets of the ancient city before enormous and sympathetic crowds, and were placed in the Cathedral before a most reverential and sympathetic congregation. That was an extension of this idea of local territorial sentiment. It had extended beyond the human being; it had actually extended to the inanimate object of a ship. H.M.S. "Kent" was not built in the county. The ship's complement was not found in the county. It was nothing but a name. But that was enough for the county of Kent. The ladies of Kent worked the flags for H.M.S." Kent." They were flown in the battle of the Southern Atlantic, collected in tatters from the rigging of the ship, and, as I say, at last placed in the bosom of the mother church. That is a sentiment which is worth keeping, which cannot be sacrificed with impunity; and that, I hope, is a sufficient excuse for my having brought this subject before your Lordships to-day.

This territorial spirit does more, as I have already said, than act as a recruiting agent. It appeals to those charitable sentiments which are the foundation of comfort and of kindly and neighbourly love. In every county, I suppose in every locality and in every part of the Empire, there are local bodies who are collecting for the comfort of the men recruited in their neighbourhoods, and who have, by their, contributions, largely assisted His Majesty's Government in their conduct of the war. I had hoped that my noble friend Lord Dartmouth would have been here to speak on this subject. It was, however, impossible for him to get away. But he writes me this letter in connection with the supply of comforts to the county units. He had to take up the matter in connection with Sir Edward Ward's pooling scheme, and he says— One point seemed to me to be a strong lever in favour of contributions being sent to the comforts pool. For reasons unknown to us, Stafford-shire units now include men from many other counties, while Staffordshire men are being sent all over the kingdom. Thus the only way to reach one's own county men is to contribute to the general pool. That may have a discouraging as well as an encouraging effect. I will not hazard a guess as to which is the more likely.

Until the present war began, this local sentiment vitalised our whole recruiting system. It did so for some time after the war began. Then by degrees those of us who had official connection with recruiting became aware of—what shall I say? I should not like to say that it was an unfriendly feeling towards the Territorial Army, but I should say that it was a feeling that was not so favourable towards the New Armies; and much to our chagrin and disappointment, and sometimes to our indignation—at least I speak for myself, and I fancy there must be other cases as well as mine—we found tradition and precedent ignored, and touch with the counties by degrees being lost. And when the compulsory system came into being, we became aware that there was actual discouragement of the idea of the county man going to his county unit. I took the liberty in this House of calling attention to what I felt was becoming prevalent, and I remember being rather flattered by a cheer from my noble friend who represents the War Office in this House (Lord Derby). He I know, has feelings on this subject almost as strong as I have in private life—

THE EARL OF DERBY

And in public.

LORD HARRIS

And Lord Kitchener, on the occasion to which I refer, said that he attached the greatest possible importance to territorial sentiment. I subsequently spoke to him about it, and he asked me to give him instances. With his permission I called for returns from the depots of the two county regiments, and I was able to send him figures which showed that in three months, in the case of one regiment, about 1,000 recruits had been sent out of the county to other regiments, whilst about 800 recruits had been brought from other counties into our county regiments. This seems to me to be an entirely unnecessary and laborious exchange to other counties of recruits who wished to go into our regiments, and vice versa.

I subsequently addressed an official at the War Office on another case, where a recruiting officer asked for a small number of men—quite a small number of men—who wished to join a particular regiment. He sent me the names, and. I knew from personal experience that they were men whose ancestors had been serving in that regiment for over a century They wanted to join the regiment they knew best, but they were refused on the ground that the regiment in question was well up to strength. I wrote to the officer commanding and asked him what was the position of the regiment at the time, and he told me that on the date when the official answer was sent the regiment was 160 short. Subsequently 100 men were sent to that regiment from a depot outside the county. I cannot explain it; it is not my business to explain these things; but it seems to me to be absolutely inconsistent, and to point unquestionably to what I apprehend is the intention of the War Office—to do away as far as it possibly can with the territorial system. And when I am talking of the territorial system I am not thinking of Territorial regiments only. I am thinking of Regular regiments just as much. We are equally proud of the county regiments, whether Territorial or Regular.

If it be the case—and I can come to no other conclusion from the proofs that have come so vividly before me—that the War Office has come to the conclusion that the whole principle of encouraging local sentiment by encouraging the county recruit to go into his county regiment is to be done away with, then I think we ought to be told so. We ought to be warned, and we ought to have the reasons given to us. I hope that my noble friend has been put into a position to give us the reasons, if it is the case. Whatever the explanation, I personally am disposed to deprecate such a change, and I can only say that I am excessively sorry if it is absolutely unavoidable.

Moved to resolve, That this House deprecates a departure from the system of recruitment, recognised by Lord Cardwell in the case of the Regular Army and confirmed by Lord Haldane in forming the Territorial Army, whereby recruits were encouraged to prefer enlistment in their county regiments.—(Lord Harris.)

VISCOUNT HALDANE

My Lords, the question which my noble friend has raised is one which is less important to-day when the thing has happened and worked out than it would have been a year ago. But I agree with him in the view which he has expressed. One scarcely likes to make even what might seem like a criticism upon the splendid work which Lord Kitchener did with the magic of his name in raising such enormous numbers of men by voluntary appeal. I often think that we underrate the services which Lord Kitchener rendered by overlooking other directions in which he did what I am sure no other man in the country could have done. By his personal influence he persuaded India and Egypt to take Territorial troops instead of Regulars, Infantry and Artillery alike, and thereby was able to bring back Regular divisions and Regular batteries to this country. No other man would have been able to induce India and Egypt to do that. These are two services so great that I do not like even to seem to criticise the system under which the troops enlisted in such wonderful numbers and with such great success were raised at home. But I am bound to say that I do not think Lord Kitchener troubled himself very much about the procedure. I think he desired to keep up the territorial system, but he was a man who liked to get results. I have often talked with him over this. His desire was to get the results more than to consider the details. As a general question and as one profoundly affecting the future of the Army, I am in entire agreement with the noble Lord in the views he has expressed.

I do not think people realise what the Cardwell system and the subsequent development of the Cardwell system was. The Cardwell system was one by which every battalion abroad should have a battalion at home corresponding to it, and the battalion at home was not to be filled with trained soldiers in time of peace but was only to have a small proportion of trained soldiers and was to be filled up on mobilisation from the Reserve. The recruits came to the depôt, stayed there a short time, and went on to complete their training in the second battalion. That was a localised system, in which every battalion had its local connection. The battalion abroad came from a local source; the battalion at home was local; and the depôt was local. The Militia was essentially a local force if any force ever was local. They used to be raised and looked after by the Lord Lieutenant, who was at the head of them. Then came the time when it was found that the Militia was recruited only for service at home, and the discovery dawned upon the War Office that for the prospect of anything like what has happened rapidity in mobilisation was absolutely essential, and therefore it was necessary to get rid of the Militia system, on which you could not count for your troops coming rapidly, and extending things further; and the Special Reserve was substituted for the Militia to go abroad. That enabled the depôt to become, on mobilisation, a third battalion; it was a large sedentary force used largely for garrison purposes, and was a reservoir from which to feed the first two battalions. Therefore these three battalions were strictly local. Then behind the third battalion, as it became in case of war, there used to be some Militia battalions, but when those were done away with there might or might not be a Special Reserve battalion behind the depôt battalion as it was in time of peace. And behind these were the Territorial battalions. The Territorial battalions were again strictly local, but they were not intended to be recruited at the depôt; they were intended to be recruited by machinery which was made for the purpose and which was purely local, in accordance with what the noble Lord has suggested was the best plan—I mean the County Associations.

The whole fountain and origin of the trouble we have witnessed has been a certain want, I think, of understanding on the part of some of the officials at the War Office in the early stages of this war of what the County Associations were and what they could do. It was not realised that these were really in the main military bodies, consisting of men who had given their minds to military things; it was not recognised that these were the men who could squeeze out every voluntary recruit in a county, and make appeals to that sentiment and patriotism of which Lord Harris has spoken—an engine more powerful than any other engine. Nothing was comparable to the County Association as an instrument for getting recruits. The County Associations were recognised but had very little given them to do, because at the Adjutant-General's Department the plan was to use the depôt for the purpose of raising the battalions which were behind the third battalions; in other words, raising them through the general machinery of the Army instead of as a local battalion which the county was to yield, such as the Territorials essentially were.

I have always thought that if the county machinery had been taken you could have secured the whole of the forces now raised more smoothly and probably more rapidly than has otherwise been the case. Lord Kitchener's great influence would have been doubled had he only had this instrument to work through. What has been the result? The result has been that instead of the New Armies having been raised as part of the Territorial system—I mean by the Territorial system not technically what was organised under the Act of 1907, but I mean strictly territorially, that is to say locally, based on the appeal to local sentiment—they have been raised just like the Regular troops at the depots. I have known of East-end men enlisting in Highland regiments. There are plenty of what are called "Cockneys" in certain of the Highland regiments; though not in the Highland regiments that have the most local associations. You will neither find men from the South in the Black Watch nor will you find in that regiment to any large extent officers not connected with that part of the country. There are a series of regiments like the Black Watch and the Gordons, and I could name others, which have this local association so largely that both as regards officers and men they conform to the tradition of which the noble Lord has spoken. That is a most valuable tradition, and I am sorry we have got away from it.

But I do not think much harm has been done. When the war is over you will reconsider all these things, and will get your system straightened out. Therefore I say again that I do not attach the importance to this question that I should have attached at the beginning of the war. But when the war is over I trust that my noble friend (Lord Derby), who is full of understanding and equity in these matters, and who has done more with his local Territorial force than probably any other man in the country, will take up the question of local sentiment, and, more than that, the question of the principle of organisation which underlies all this, and see that the Army is put back on to what I am sure is the only footing that will keep it in a proper condition. The new feature of the Army to-day, the one feature where we have without any doubt or question made a great stride over anything we had in the past, was the rapidity of mobilisation. Where would you have been if you had not had that rapidity of mobilisation in the early stages of the war which enabled you to put 100,000 men at the place where they were wanted in France without delay? That rapidity of mobilisation depends entirely on the kind of organisation which lay at the foundation of the arrangements, such as they were, and such as they ought to have remained. You have delayed rapidity of mobilisation by collecting troops from all quarters and huddling them together in particular battalions without regard from whence they came and how they were raised. It has not mattered, because you had plenty of time to raise them in the latter stages of the war. But rapidity of mobilisation will be the bedrock and principle of the test of success of the British Army, whatever it may be in the future. I do not know what shape it will take. I trust that my noble friend, who is very keen and sympathetic about these things, will use his influence to give effect to the request of the noble Lord, and secure to us the continuance of those considerations of sentiment which make the utmost difference both to the spirit and to the efficiency of troops.

THE DUKE OF RUTLAND

My Lords, I wish to emphasise what has fallen from Lord Harris with respect to the methods of recruiting and the carrying on of the territorial system. Lord Haldane has expressed much better than I possibly could many of the views which I hold upon this subject. I venture to say, however, that I am confident that in the long run, when this war is over and when things connected with the Army are being carefully investigated, the territorial system will be found to have done as good work as any one that this country has ever had. I have always felt, having had to do with the Territorial Force from the commencement, that we should be very grateful to Lord Haldane for having initiated such a wonderful system, and one which, had it been on a little larger scale in the first instance, would have enabled us to put more men in the field than we did. Lord Haldane was the father of that Army; it is a largish Army now, and it has done and is doing wonderful work.

But it is not the Territorial Force qua Territorial Force that I have in mind, but the Line regiments belonging to the various territorial areas, and no agency has been so effective in getting recruits as the territorial system. The men have come forward in large numbers and been anxious to get into the Line regiments belonging to their particular area; but on occasion, as has happened of late, there has been a considerable number of recruits brought in from other parts of the country. I have known men to be brought from as many as seven or eight different counties to join the Leicestershire regiments. That has been owing to exceptional and peculiar circumstances; and although there have been occasions when local recruits have been sent away, as Lord Harris has described, to join other regiments in other parts of the country while at the same time recruits from outside have been brought in, those things have occurred only very rarely; and I am confident that the noble Earl opposite (Lord Derby), who, as I know, has very strong local feelings, will do his best to see that in the future the old territorial system is observed as far as the requirements of the War Office and the Army allow.

I believe the territorial system to be one of the most effective weapons we have, and it should not be lightly tampered with. But, as I say, there have been circumstances within the last year which have made it impossible to carry out recruiting solely from local areas into local Territorial and Regular regiments. That has been very unfortunate, and it undoubtedly did a certain amount of harm to recruiting at the time. But so long as we feel confident, as we do, that the War Office recognises to the full the inestimable value of the territorial system, whether applied to Line or to Territorial regiments, we can rest content that we shall never fail of a due flow of recruits to the Army.

VISCOUNT GALWAY

My Lords, before the noble Earl replies I should like to call his attention to one matter which has been overlooked in this debate, and which I think might have some influence on the territorial system. Formerly the casualty lists always stated the regiment of Yeomanry to which the officer or man belonged, but for the last few months—I do not know how long exactly—the casualty lists have stated simply "Yeomanry." Naturally every county is very proud of its Yeomanry regiment, and I think the noble Earl will admit that the county feeling has been well kept up when you consider that all Yeomanry regiments have their third line. I fail to see how it can be of assistance to the enemy if it is stated that the regiment belongs to Kent, Surrey, or whatever the county is; and as the name of the county is given in the casualty lists with regard to other regiments, I would ask the noble Earl to consider the question of allowing it in the case of Yeomanry regiments. I might add that I support every word said by Lord Harris, and I hope that the territorial system will have every encouragement.

THE EARL OF DERBY

My Lords, I hope I may be able to give a sympathetic answer to the noble Lord; and I can assure him that, although I have been transferred from the opposite side of the House to this side, my sentiments on the subject have in no way altered. If I may, I will deal first with the question which Lord Galway has just mentioned with regard to the casualties in the Territorial Force. The military authorities attach the greatest importance to not giving such information. The fact of a man being in—shall I say?—the Lancashire Hussars does not convey much information, but it may convey this information to the enemy—that this particular Brigade was in action in one particular place; and the military authorities have laid the rule down very definitely because they think publication might give valuable information. I have been into this matter personally in France. They attach the greatest importance to not giving the names of the regiments. I feel sure that when the noble Viscount knows that this is the wish of the military authorities, he will not question the decision.

With regard to the question which Lord Harris has raised, let me say that I am absolutely and entirely in sympathy with him. I strongly believe in the territorial feeling. It has been of enormous value in getting recruits in this war; and this the noble Lord can take from me as an absolute assurance—as far as anybody can give an assurance—that any departure from it is only temporary, and that we shall go back to what I believe is the right spirit, the territorial spirit, after the war. My noble friend Lord Haldane, I think, hit the nail on the head when he said that what Lord Kitchener wanted was to get the men, and that as long as he got them he was satisfied. I think there is no doubt that this was the case. Equally I have no doubt whatever that if the territorial system had been expanded it would have been worked far easier than the system of raising separate battalions. More than that—and of this I speak with practical experience—it was infinitely harder to get men to fill up a Territorial battalion which was half full than it was to get men to form a completely new battalion. Lord Haldane said that the Territorial Associations had not very much to do. They did have a great deal to do. They had to do with all the clothing and equipment of the whole of the first line; they had to make the second line, and to get 50 per cent. more for a third line.

LORD HARRIS

And there were the separation allowances.

THE EARL OF DERBY

They had to do with the separation allowances for the whole of the Force. Take my own Territorial Association. We had to do the separation allowances for two and a half divisions; and there was some work in doing that. But to return to my point. We were short in the Artillery. I tried to get men for our Territorial Artillery. Meanwhile I was asked to raise some Artillery for the New Army. I was able to raise Artillery in Lancashire and to complete two divisions before I was able to fill up the ranks of the Territorials. There was something unaccountable, but it existed, which made men prefer to go into new units than to go into old-established ones. Granted that you had not compulsory service, I have absolutely no hesitation in saying that the territorial system would have been the right one to work on. The territorial system, of which the noble Viscount (Lord Haldane) has every reason to be proud, was based not only on territorial associations, but to a certain extent on percentage of population. Therefore you would have been able to extend those divisions according to the population of the area. But the more patriotic a county was, the worse is its position at the present moment for getting recruits. Lord Harris spoke for Kent, and I speak to a certain extent for Lancashire. We were both very keen about our counties, but there were some others who were not nearly so keen, and I do not know whether he had the same experience as I did, but one of one's chief duties was warning off recruiting parties who came poaching to get recruits for other parts of the kingdom where the territorial feeling was not so strong, perhaps, as it is in Kent and Lancashire.

I quite agree with the noble Lord that, as far as possible, men ought to be kept within their county regiments. It is a great disappointment to those of us who have raised special battalions and special reserves for those battalions to find that those reserves, whom we had taken a great deal of care to bring up to the right establishment, are suddenly taken off to fill up gaps in other regiments. But we have to face this fact, that having begun in, if I may so call it, rather a haphazard way, it is almost impossible to get out of it now at the moment when the one thing we want is to make every possible use of our man power when and where it is wanted. The other day when I was in France I went into this question, and what they told me—it is sound common sense—was this. If two regiments go into action, say A and B, and A loses half its strength while B has hardly any casualties at all, and you see behind that B has enough men to make good A's casualties while A has not that reserve, you cannot stand on any rule or regulation, but you are bound to take men from B to fill up A. That is a proposition that we have to face, and I do not think anybody in this House would take the responsibility of saying to our military chiefs in the field or to our military advisers at home, "You are not to make the best use you can of your man power, because by doing so you will in some way go against territorial sentiment." To do such a thing as that would be to ask those who are responsible for the fighting in the field to fight with one arm tied behind their backs.

I entirely agree with the noble Lord that after this war we must go back to the territorial system, and I have the assurance of the military authorities that, so far as they possibly can, they will adhere to this system, because they recognise the value of keeping such men together. I ask the noble Lord to believe that I have exactly the same sentiments in this matter as he has. At the same time I ask him to agree with me that we must do nothing that would interfere in any way with the full discretion of the military authorities as to the best use to be made of the man power of this country.

LORD HARRIS

My Lords, after the extremely satisfactory reply of the noble Earl and his assurance that the interest of the War Office remains in the territorial system though they have had temporarily to depart from it, I think I ought to withdraw my Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.