§ VISCOUNT GALWAY rose to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War for further information with regard to the terms on which His Majesty's Government propose to take over the whole of the hay and straw crop of 1916.
§ The noble Viscount said: My Lords. I do not propose to repeat the arguments which I used on July 13, when I last called attention to this subject; and if the noble Earl the Under-Secretary of State for War has paid me the compliment of reading in the OFFICIAL REPORT my speech on that occasion, he will probably be able to answer some of the questions which I then asked. I inquired who was going to fix the price to be paid to the farmers. I also called attention to the excessive amount of commission allowed to hay and straw dealers, and asked whether, if a farmer is at the trouble of cutting up and trussing his hay and taking it to the station himself, he will be allowed to take the benefit of the £2 a ton on hay which the dealer is allowed to make.
§ I should like to mention to the House that I took up this question so strongly because of the peculiar character of the proceedings in this case. The Government are taking over and fixing the price for a great deal of surplus which they do not propose to use themselves. About 14,000,000 tons is the amount of hay supposed to constitute an ordinary hay crop, and this year's crop promises to reach that average. Yet the Government themselves are only proposing to take 1,000,000 tons, so that a very large amount of hay is affected besides that which is required for Government purposes. At the same time the Government propose to fix the maximum price at which farmers must sell their hay. It seems to me that the Government have gone 1084 rather further than was necessary to prevent their being forestalled by dealers buying the hay. I suggest that a scheme might be arrived at which would be fair to all—namely, that a certain time should be fixed during which the War Office representatives would go round and certify how much of the crop they want, and that after December 1 or January 1 the farmer should be allowed to sell the remainder of the hay in the open market.
§ With regard to payment by the War Office, unfortunately, Government Departments have not the reputation of being rapid payers. Indeed, one has heard that some of the billeting bills for last winter have not yet been paid by the War Office. But I hope, in regard to the hay crop, that as soon as the War Office representatives have been round and earmarked the stacks or portions of the crop which they want, 75 per cent. of the purchase money will be paid to the farmers at once. It is too frequently forgotten by those who deal with these matters that the money realised from the sale of such articles as wool, hay, and straw practically constitutes the farmer's working capital, and that it is out of this money that he is enabled to pay extra wages and to discharge his tillage bills and buy further stock. I hope that we shall have a statement from the noble Earl that prompt payment will be given for at any rate a large portion of the crop taken. I may add that a great many farmers complain that the price at which old hay of last year is being taken is not a fair one, though I do not suppose there is very much of that left for the Government to commandeer. I can assure the noble Earl that the greatest possible interest is taken by the agricultural community all over England with regard to the Government's decision in regard to the hay crop of this year.
THE EARL OF LICHFIELDMy Lords, perhaps the noble Earl the Under-Secretary of State for War will allow me to say a few words before he replies to Lord Galway. The noble Viscount has dealt so fully, both the other day and to-day, with all the points in connection with the hay and straw crop that little remains for me to add on that subject. Still there is no harm in reiterating briefly some of the matters which farmers consider might be put on a better footing. In the first place, they think it was not right to fix a price for hay and straw early in July, at a time when it was 1085 impossible to know what the quantity and quality of the hay might be throughout the kingdom. Again, they think that the producer should have a free hand for the disposal of his hay and straw not required by the Government, and also that the margin of profit allowed to dealers is excessive. They also complain that farmers at a distance from a port or troop centre should not be penalised by the extra carriage for delivery of the hay to ports or troop centres. Those are some of the matters which farmers would like, if possible, to have placed on a better footing. I know that the noble Viscount, Lord Galway, will agree with me that farmers Jo not wish to set up a grievance because these Orders are made on them, if only they are made after careful consideration and consultation with those interested and with the Board of Agriculture, so that this great national industry should be as little disturbed and interfered with as possible.
This brings me to the Notice which I have placed on the Paper to-day—
To urge His Majesty's Government to name an early date for taking over and paying for the home-grown wool clip as farmers are in need of the money, and in many cases the wool is deteriorating owing to the want of proper storage accommodation on the farms; and to ask that prompt and full publicity, with regard to the intentions of His Majesty's Government on the subject, be given to the farmers.
I have obtained the leave of my two noble friends who have Notices before mine to allow me to bring forward this matter now, so that the noble Earl who will reply for His Majesty's Government may be able to deal with the two questions in the same speech.
The first point in the Notice standing on the Paper in my name is in the same terms as that which my noble friend Lord Harris raised the day before yesterday, to which the noble Earl representing the War Office gave, as we thought, a very satisfactory answer. But on looking at the newspapers the next morning we found no mention at all of the discussion in one or two of the principal newspapers, and in others there was very scant notice taken of the answer which the noble Earl gave. It is of the utmost importance to the farmers that they should know where they stand on this question. Therefore I venture to hope that the noble Earl will be able to tell us 1086 that great publicity will be given to his answer, and that it may be published broadcast so that the farmers may hear of it in all parts of the country. They have been kept out of their money now for some time. As a rule they would get paid for the wool clip by the end of June, or by the end of July in Scotland; yet up to the present moment I do not suppose a single farmer has been paid anything for his wool crop commandeered by the Government. Therefore he is at a great disadvantage. He badly wants the money. I know of cases where farmers have had to sell immature stock in order to find the money necessary to carry on their farming. It is a very good augury that we should see the noble Earl the distinguished representative of a long line of English Earls sitting next to the representative of a long line of Scottish Earls, each representing their respective Departments; and I feel sure, with them sitting together and co-operating, we shall not again have the same state of affairs as has existed with regard to the commandeering of wool. The Board of Agriculture in this matter were never properly consulted. It is true that they were told about it, but they were only told when the matter was practically arranged, when the price had been thought out, and when all the terms had been settled. Therefore we may practically say that the Board of Agriculture were not consulted at all on the subject of the commandeering of wool. I should like to ask what is the use of having a Board of Agriculture and a distinguished gentleman at its head if the Board are not to be consulted on such a question of national importance as that of the commandeering of the home-grown wool clip.
In connection with this, we had the great misfortune that Lord Selborne had just resigned office when this question came forward. I desire to call your Lordships' attention to the fact that Lord Selborne protested against the action that had been taken, and said that the Board of Agriculture had not been properly consulted on the question. On one occasion when this subject was debated in your Lordships' House, Lord Selborne said—
I have repeatedly, on behalf of the Government, urged farmers to produce more during this time of war, and I think that in the face of great difficulties the farmers have made a noble effort to respond to the appeal made to them…. Therefore I am really concerned at the position into which the War Office has got itself over the price, of wool.1087 Again Lord Selborne said—Almost my last Minute at the Board of Agriculture recorded the fact that I could not endorse this price, and that the Hoard was instructed to protest against it and to point out to the War Office that they were, though unintentionally, using the farmer in an unjust and hard manner.I think many of your Lordships will agree with the words which Lord Selborne used about the way in which the farmers were treated on this question. I have called attention to this because, if there is a grievance, the only course is to mention it in the hope that, by co-operation in the future between the Board of Agriculture and the War Office, such a state of affairs will not occur again. I am sure your Lordships will concur that it is most undesirable in the best interests of the country that a great national industry like agriculture should be treated in the way it has been with regard to this wool purchase.
§ THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (THE EARL OF DERBY)My Lords, I will reverse the order of my answers, and reply first to the noble Earl who has just spoken. I am bound to say that I was rather pleased when I saw that there was no mention made in the newspapers of the answer which I gave to the noble Lord the other day with regard to the price of wool, because it showed that there was certainly no agitation on the subject; for the newspapers, which are hard pressed for space, naturally do not put into their reports anything which they think is accepted and requires no further discussion. I would point out to the noble Earl that although the price of wool may have been at first settled in the way he described, there was a meeting afterwards of representatives of the farmers with my hon. friend the Financial Secretary to the War Office, and the whole question was discussed and the price advanced. I would refer him, with regard to the details, to the answer which I gave to my noble friend Lord Harris on the 1st of this month. I have communicated with my noble friend the President of the Board of Agriculture as to the best way of bringing the terms and conditions before the farmers, and I have no doubt whatever that he, who has better organisation for doing so than the War Office can have, will do all in his power to see that the information is brought to their notice.
I come now to the questions which the noble Viscount (Lord Galway) put to me the 1088 other day and those which he has added to-day. One of the questions asked the other day was, Is £5 10s. the maximum price or is it a flat rate? It is the maximum price. He then asked who is to judge as to whether a lower price should be paid. The buyers are allowed discretion as to the price they give according to the quality of the hay; but if the farmer is not satisfied, he can appeal to the county committee to readjust the price, and we should act by what the county committee in those cases said was a fair price. There was a question also asked the other day with regard to the amount that was made by dealers. I have in front of me particulars of how the £2 a ton is made up, and I shall be happy to show them to the noble Viscount. I think he will see that it is a fair price to add if you accept the view that a middleman is necessary. I admit that there may be differences of opinion on that subject, but I am certain, from the inquiries I have made, that if you kill the middleman now, as you might do, it would be a serious disadvantage not only now but also after the war.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYNo, not unless he had acted in the capacity of dealer before. It is the whole question of maintaining the middleman. The farmer would be allowed a certain addition if he carted it to the railway station.
Let me say, in passing, that we do not force the farmer to part with all his hay, as the noble Viscount seemed to suggest. Any that he says he wants to keep for his own stock, we are going to allow him to keep. The noble Viscount said, I think, on the former occasion that last year was a very bad year for hay, and that therefore the amount which the farmer had last year would not be a good criterion as to the amount he ought to be allowed this year. I agree. What he is asked to state is what he wants this year; but I think it is only fair that we should ask him what he had last year and see whether there is any valid reason for his holding back more than would be considered absolutely necessary. But there is no intention whatsoever on the part of the War Office to deprive any man of such an amount of hay as would inconvenience him in regard to the feeding of his own stock.
1089 With regard to the question of price, I find that it is not the custom of the hay trade to advance more than 50 per cent. of the purchase price. We are going to pay the 50 per cent. at once; we are going to pay 5 per cent. interest from October 31 to the day of lifting; and if there is any case brought to our notice where serious hardship would be done to any man by only paying the 50 per cent., we shall be perfectly ready to consider it on its merits and, if necessary, go up to the 75 per cent. The noble Viscount referred to the commandeering at £5 9s. I have asked in the Office if they can explain how that price arose, and this is the answer which they have given me and which I think is the correct one. Presumably it refers to the natural operation of the Defence of the Realm Order dated March 31, the price named being made up of £5, which was the original price arranged as between the local county committee and the forage committee, plus 1s. 6d. a month per ton from January in respect of the dryage incurred. If there are any other details required I shall be glad if the noble Viscount will let me know, but to the question he put to me that is, I believe, the right answer.
Then I come to the more general question as to whether or no it would not be possible for the War Office to take what it wants and say to the farmer, "You may sell all the rest at any price that you can get." I confess that at first sight this appears to be the most reasonable thing to do; but it was pointed out to me, and with such force that one has to accept it, that if you do that you may be putting a great hardship on those men from whom you take hay if you take it in any quantity. You may take away the whole lot of good hay in one locality where hay is in big demand, and that would enable the men there to make a high price for second quality hay; while in the other parts you would be depriving a man of a chance of so doing.
There is another question, one which materially affects not only the farmer but the whole conduct of the war in one way, and that is the question of transport and freight in this country. What we hope to do is to be fair to the farmer and at the same time to minimise as far as we possibly can the carrying of hay from one locality to another. I have to say that because I really do not think noble Lords quite realise how hard put to it we are at the present 1090 moment to find the necessary freight in this country, with troops moving, with the amount of ammunition, I am glad to say, going up by leaps and bounds, and with the increased demands of the Army abroad. A strain is thus put on our railway service almost up to breaking point; and though it may seem a small thing to limit the transport of hay about the country, I assure your Lordships it is only one of the many steps we feel we must take—a step which we hope will not be against the interests of the farmer, but which will be distinctly in the interests of the management of the war as a whole.
VISCOUNT GALWAYMy Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Earl for his answer, and I am sure he will realise that the agricultural interest is as anxious as possible to help him in every way to have 1,000,000 tons of hay, or whatever is necessary, for the benefit of the nation. At the same time I hope he will allow farmers in the neighbourhood of large camps or elsewhere, who are able to cut the hay up and truss it and transport it themselves to the neighbouring railway station, to recover some of the money which would otherwise go to his favourite middleman. I submit that the farmer should be able to recover some of this money if he undertakes this extra work.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYThe noble Viscount may rest assured that I have the farming interest as much at heart as he has. One is bound to lay down general rules. At the same time the noble Viscount may be, quite certain that if we can find any way by which we can make it easier for the farmer without departing from the general rule we shall be very glad to do so.
THE EARL OF LICHFIELDDid I understand the noble Earl to say that he would ask the Board of Agriculture to publish without delay the Government's announcement regarding wool?
§ THE EARL OF DERBYThat is so. I have already conferred with the President of the Board, who has better machinery than I have for letting the farmers know what is the state of affairs.
THE EARL OF LICHFIELDI am much obliged to the noble Earl for his answer. It is of the utmost importance that farmers should know as soon as possible. I may 1091 say that I inquired at the Central Chamber of Agriculture this afternoon, and they had not heard a word about the answer which the noble Earl gave the other night, which was very important and should have been published, as we had hoped it would have been, in the newspapers.