HL Deb 25 April 1916 vol 21 cc811-8
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE

My Lords, I rise to move that the sitting of the House this day shall be secret. It is advisable that before the House is cleared for this purpose I should explain why we desire that the House should agree to this abrupt departure from its ancient traditions and its ordinary practice. Parliament has been told of the lack of agreement which for a time existed within the ranks of the Cabinet, and, as was generally recognised, the full importance of that disagreement consisted in the fact that it was a reflection of a cleavage of opinion throughout the country. No different object is desired by those who differ throughout the country except by an altogether insignificant minority. All the rest have been firmly set on the achievement of victory in the war, but they have not agreed as to the number or the kind of men who are available for service in the Navy and the Army; nor have they agreed as to the proper means of securing those who are available. The course which the Government propose to commend to Parliament may not meet the full desires of persons of either extreme view, and it is therefore our duty to recommend it so far as possible to the opinion of Parliament as a whole; and in order to do that fully it is necessary to make a statement containing, as Your Lordships will see, not a little confidential information. That being so, the Government have decided that the proper course to take is that both houses should meet for this particular purpose on this particular occasion in Secret Session, merely publishing at an early date, not of course the effect of any discussion which may take place in either House of Parliament, but a considered description of the proposals which the Government in due course will make to Parliament and the country, though without that description of the I reasons which induce us to make the particular proposals which the Prime Minister in another place and I here hope to give to Parliament. I therefore beg to move that the sitting of the House this day shall be secret.

Moved, That the sitting of the House this day be secret.—(The Marquess of Crewe.)

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, I do not rise on behalf of my friends who sit on this Bench with any desire of resisting the Motion which the noble Marquess has made, although, of course, it is one absolutely unprecedented, as I believe, in the whole course of the long history which belongs to your Lordships' House. But I do rise to say this. I think perhaps, had circumstances permitted, it would have been more in accordance with your Lordships' wishes that the conditions under which such a novel proceeding is proposed to take place should be communicated to the House before action was taken rather than after.

We all saw in this morning's papers an announcement that the Lord Great Chamberlain, acting no doubt on His Majesty's authority, had closed the Palace of Westminster to all strangers to-day, and amongst other places has apparently closed the Reporters' Gallery of your Lordships' House. I do not wish to make any difficulties on a matter of form, but I do think it is right—I am sure your Lordships will allow me, as an independent member of the House, to say this—to make something in the nature of a protest against the assumption that the House would sanction this proceeding before they had been consulted upon it. The Lord Great Chamberlain is a great Officer of State, whose duty it is to exercise His Majesty's authority in this Palace; but all the proceedings in your Lordships' House are, by long tradition, absolutely in the hands of your Lordships. No one has a right to give any order whatever as to the progress, condition, methods, or privileges of debate except this House itself; and I do not suppose that His Majesty's Government would contend that at this time of day the Reporters' Gallery is not an essential part of the equipment of the House. Therefore, my Lords, although this is not an occasion to make difficulties upon smaller matters, yet I do think it is necessary to enter this protest, and to say that, as far as we are concerned, we do not admit any right whatever residing in the Lord Great Chamberlain, or any other Officer of State, in any way to limit the conditions under which your Lordships think it right to conduct the debates in this House.

As regards secrecy, that is a matter which I venture to think your Lordships will all agree, upon the request of the Government, ought to be granted. I think it right, however, to make one observation about the Older in Council which was published this morning. That Order in Council consists of two paragraphs. I hope I am right in understanding that the second paragraph, which relates to the publication of proceedings in the Cabinet, really has nothing what ever to do with your Lordships' House—I do not think the leakage of the Cabinet takes place in your Lordships' House—and has nothing to do, therefore, with the Motion this afternoon. But the other paragraph, the earlier paragraph, makes it a high crime and misdemeanour if any of the proceedings which are going to take place in Secret Session are afterwards published or referred to. That seems to be a very necessary and proper sequel to any Secret Session. It would be no good having a Secret Session if people were afterwards allowed to publish what passed here. That follows as a matter of course. But I should like to say, if I may, that although for our part we on this Bench entirely agree to the Secret Session, that must not be taken to mean that we are in favour always of the secrecy under which the Government conduct their proceedings. Most of us think that secrecy has been carried too far, and that the Government have run a certain risk of losing the confidence of the country by not taking the country into their own confidence. But that does not affect the proceedings to-day, and I only put it in by way of caution. So far as we are concerned, subject to these reservations, we are quite willing to agree to the Motion.

THE MARQUESS OF LINCOLNSHIRE

My Lords, as my conduct as Lord Great Chamberlain has been brought before your Lordships' House, I hope you will permit me a few words of explanation. The position is this. There is no doubt that at this moment we are face to face with a very serious situation. I understood the case to be that His Majesty's Government had advised the Sovereign that there should be a Secret Session of both Houses of Parliament. The House of Commons is not within my jurisdiction. But with regard to this House I considered it my duty, on the understanding that His Majesty's constitutional advisers had recommended a Secret Session, at once to issue instructions to secure that this secrecy should be most strictly and solemnly observed. The whole House, the Lobbies, and the vaults below have been searched; and, as was my manifest duty, I have done everything that I possibly could to carry out the orders of the Sovereign, as advised by his constitutional advisers. I have, to the best of my ability, obeyed the orders of the King. I did not hesitate to do so, and I hope the time may never come when I may hesitate to obey the orders of the Sovereign.

LORD PARMOOR

My Lords, I should like to say a few words on the question raised by the noble Marquess regarding the action taken by the Lord Great Chamberlain. This matter was considered by a Committee not long ago—as late as the year 1901—and I will read two extracts from the Report of that Committee which will show that this House has not relegated control over its proceedings to any outside authority, and that in that respect we stand in reference to our privileges, whether as regards the Lord Great Chamberlain or even as regards the authority from which lie derives his office, in an absolutely and wholly independent position.

The Committee to which I refer—the Joint Select Committee on the Presence of the Sovereign in Parliament—reported in 1901: The Lord Great Chamberlain retains authority over the buildings of both Houses of Parliament when those Houses are not sitting. His authority is no greater over the House of Lords than it is over the House of Commons. In neither case has he any right to issue any mandate as regards the proceedings of the House. The same Report states what the authority of this House is. The House of Lords, the Committee say, have an— obvious and inherent right to make regulations as to the use of that part of the building which they occupy. It is a very serious matter to have a right of that kind, which has always been asserted by this House, impinged upon in any way whatever; and I entirely agree with what the noble Marquess said, that if we are to have a Secret Session, against which I am not raising any question at the moment, the secrecy should be determined by this House in the same way as it is determined by the House of Commons, and by no other authority whatever.

In the House of Commons the Question is put by the Speaker whether or not strangers should be excluded. The effect of that is that the House of Commons has, as it ought to have, complete control of its own procedure. It had contests in old days with Courts of Law without any outside interference. We have a Standing Order—Number VIII—under which strangers can be excluded from the House during our debates, and I suggest that we ought not on an occasion of this kind to allow our privileges to be invaded. What ought to have been done is this. A Motion should have been made in this House in the same way as in the house of Commons, and had it been so made no one can doubt for a moment that the House would have given authority to hold a secret sitting under the existing conditions. I enter a protest against what has taken place because it is a strong matter, as regards either House of Parliament, that its procedure on an occasion of this kind should be directed by an outside authority.

There is one other point on which I should like an answer. In connection with this Secret Session an Order has been made under the Defence of the Realm Regulations. Apparently upon the face of the Order liberty of disclosure, as regards members of this House, is not interfered with in any way; but what is done is that if any other person or a member of this House in a public speech discloses what takes place, he is liable to the heavy penalties imposed by the Defence of the Realm Act. I should like to ask, Is that interpretation correct? It seems to me that we are in this dilemma. If it is correct, secrecy is very imperfectly maintained. If it is not correct, then apart from any order of this House the Government, by Proclamation, not by legislation, have affected to interfere with the privileges of every member of this House as regards discussions which take place here at the present time. What I want to know is this. Does the Order which has been made under the Defence of the Realm Act prevent any member of this House making any disclosures as regards statements made here to-day? I think every member of this House ought to know what his position is upon a point of that kind. As regards the general question of secrecy, I say nothing at the present time. I am entirely in accord with what was said by the noble Marquess, that the system of secrecy has not produced unity and confidence, but has produced distrust and want of unity.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

My Lords, we heard with satisfaction from my noble friend Lord Salisbury that he does not desire to resist the Motion which has been made by my noble friend the Leader of the House. It is an unprecedented Motion, but the circumstances are of a wholly exceptional character. My noble friend made a protest, which I gathered was to this effect—that in his view before this step was actually taken it would have been courteous to the House that we should have consulted them as to the conditions under which this Secret Session is to be held. I am not at all sure that my noble friend's protest is not in a sense a reasonable one. But the situation was this. We had come to the conclusion that it was urgently important that certain information of a highly confidential character should be laid before the two Houses of Parliament, and with that object it seemed inevitable that there should be a Secret Session of both Houses. We were under the impression that our suggestion was upon the whole not disapproved of. We therefore thought that what was really important was that we should get into Secret Session as soon as possible. For that reason alone I think it might have been undesirable if, before steps had been taken to close this House, we had had an ordinary session and a prolonged discussion in regard to the conditions under which secrecy might be enforced. That really is the whole of our reason, and I hope that the noble Marquess will regard it as not insufficient.

I listened with interest to what was said by my noble and learned friend on the Cross Benches (Lord Parmoor) in regard to the rights of your Lordships over this building. I do not for a moment wish to contest the correctness of what he has said. But I really venture to think that if there has been any infringement of those rights, it is a somewhat technical one. At any rate, we cannot make it too clear that what has really happened in this case has been not that His Majesty has been advised by his Ministers to hold this Secret Session, but merely to issue the Order in Council punishing infractions of secrecy with certain penalties. For the policy of having resort to a Secret Session We, the members of the Government, alone are responsible, and that responsibility we fully accept.

LORD AMPTHILL

My Lords, before the Question is put I should like to ask whether any provision has been made for the publication in the ordinary course of our proceedings thus far. We have listened to very forcible and impressive vindication of the rights of this House, and I think we have a further right that what has been said should be placed on record in order that the proceedings to-day may not be made a precedent for any further encroachments on the undoubted rights of your Lordships' House. I should like to know, there being no reporters present, whether any arrangement has been made for the publication of our proceedings up to this moment, which I take it thus far have not been secret.

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE

My Lords, I quite appreciate the point made by the noble Lord. As the House will observe, the Official Reporter is so far in his place, although he will withdraw when the Motion has been put and carried. I have no doubt he will take steps to communicate to the Press in one form or another the account of what has passed up to the time of the Motion being put from the Woolsack.

LORD PARMOOR

Can the noble Marquess answer the question, What is the obligation of members of this House under the Order as regards secrecy?

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE

My Lords, the question of my noble and learned friend is important, and from a technical point of view interesting. But I feel quite confident that the particular occasion which he has spoken of as possible could not arise, because I altogether decline to believe that any member of your Lord ships' House could in any way divulge what passes in the Secret Session, so far as its substance is confidential. Therefore, as I say, the question does not appear in the strict sense to arise. It certainly does not appear to me that the Order in Council in any way infringes the privileges of your Lordships' House. It is for the House to decide what shall be published and what shall not, and to inflict such penalties as it chooses upon those who break its regulations. Therefore the Order in Council cannot, I think, in any sense be taken as infringing the privileges of your Lordships' House in that respect.

On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

The OFFICIAL REPORTER then withdrew.

House in Secret Session.

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE then made a statement to the House.

At its close the noble Marquess moved, That the House do resolve itself into Committee to consider the said statement; agreed to, and ordered accordingly: The Lord Balfour appointed to take the Chair: House in Committee accordingly.

After debate, House resumed.

House adjourned at Nine o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter-past Four o'clock.