Lords Sitting of 22 September 1915

MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY.
Ordered, That the Report of the Lord Chancellor of the United Kingdom, made to the House of Lords on Thursday last, that the right of the Marquess of Londonderry to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland has been established to his satisfaction, be sent to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland, together with a certificate stating that such Report has been made, and that the House has ordered it to be sent to the said Clerk of the Crown in Ireland.
CLACKMANNAN COUNTY WATER ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. (No. 156.)
  GLASGOW WATER ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. (No. 157.)
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been read 2a (The Lord Stanmore), and reported from the Committee.—

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
Colonies (Annual)—No. 855. Ceylon (Report for 1914.):
Trade Reports (Annual Series)—

No. 5465. Denmark (Denmark, 1913);

No. 5466. Germany (Samoa, 1913);

No. 5467. Morocco (Morocco, 1913);

No. 5468. China (Swatow, 1914):

Miscellaneous, No. 16 (1915)—Austrian and German Papers found in possession of Mr. James F. J. Archibald, Falmouth, 30th August, 1915:—
Retrenchment—First Report of the Committee on Retrenchment in the Public Expenditure:
Post Office Charges—Statement showing the proposed increases in postal telegraph; and telephone charges and the additional revenue and saving in expenditure estimated therefrom for the years 1915–1916 and 1916–1917:
Coal Merchants—List of coal merchants in the London District who have accepted an arrangement for a limitation of profits:
Trade (Foreign Countries and British Possessions)—Annual Statement of the Trade of the United Kingdom with Foreign Countries and British Possessions, 1914,
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compared with the four preceding years; compiled in the Statistical Office of the Customs and Excise Department. Volume II:
Intermediate Education (Ireland)—Report under the Intermediate Education (Ireland) Act, 1914, as to the application of the Teachers' Salaries Grant:
Presented (by command) and ordered to lie on the Table.—
Naval and Marine Pay and Pensions Act, 1865—Three Orders in Council, dated 14th September 1915, made under the Act:
Navy and Marines (Property of Deceased) Act, 1865—Order in Council, dated 14th September 1915, amending the Order in Council, dated 28th December 1865, made under the Act:
Diseases of Animals Acts, 1894–1911—Order, No. 9512, dated 11th September, altering the date of operation of Orders, Nos. 9492 and 9493, entitled the Liverpool (Birkenhead) Irish Animals Landing Place Order of 1915, and the Liverpool (Birkenhead) Foreign Animals Wharf Order of 1915, respectively from 12th September 1915 to 22nd September 1915:
Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland—The Black Scab in Potatoes Special Area (Ireland) Order, 1915:
Shops Act, 1912—Order by the Secretary for Scotland, dated 17th September 1915, under the Act, affecting a certain class of shops in the Burgh of Ayr:
National Insurance Acts—The National Health Insurance (Navy and Army) Regulations (Scotland) (No. 2) 1915, dated 15th September 1915:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and ordered to lie on the Table.

THE DEPUTY CHAPLAIN-GENERAL.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH had the following Question on the Paper—
To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will make a statement as to the circumstances which led to the creation of the post of Deputy Chaplain-General, and the reasons for the appointment to that post of a temporary fourth-class chaplain with the rank of Major-General.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I put this Question mainly for the sake of eliciting the information for which it asks, but at the same time for the purpose, as I hope, of allaying a certain amount of misunderstanding, misapprehension, and perhaps even irritation, both at home and abroad, on the part of those who do not happen to be members of the Church of England. I think I am right in saying that what has been done is the creation of a completely new post and the making of a wholly new precedent. The post is that of Deputy Chaplain-General, and the rank that has been given to the gentleman who is serving in that capacity is equivalent to that of a Major-General in the Army. If this is a purely Church of England matter, a matter domestic to the administration of the chaplaincies of the Church of England with the Expeditionary Force, it would be presumptuous on my part to say anything or make any comment in regard to it. But if it is a purely Church of England matter—though undoubtedly the apprehensions created at first were that it was not a Church of England matter, but that there was a deliberate attempt and intention to supersede the old Service Chaplain with the rank of Brigadier-General in command of the chaplains with the Expeditionary Force in France since the beginning of the war—then I think a most unjust thing has been done. If the object is not that which has been feared, I cannot understand why a rank so high as that of Major-General should have been given.
I believe I am right in saying that in the South African War the chaplains of every Church represented were independent of one another and were directly responsible to the military authorities—in other words, there was no centralisation of control. It may have been on account of the experience gained on that occasion, and perhaps on account of the much larger numbers now employed, that when the British Force was sent to France last autumn a different system was adopted and a certain amount of centralisation of control was put in force in the person of the then Senior Chaplain, Dr. Simms, who happens to belong to the Irish Presbyterian Church, with a Deputy belonging to the Church of England, from whom I believe the Church of England chaplains took their orders. Dr. Simms had given him the rank of Brigadier-General to mark the status and the position in which he was placed. The same precedent, as I understand, has been
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followed in the case of the Mediterranean Force. In that case the Senior Chaplain is a member of the Church of England, and he has also the rank of Brigadier-General and is responsible to the military authorities for the due organisation of the chaplaincies under his command.
But all of a sudden a temporary chaplain of the fourth class is put over every one's head, with the rank of Major-General. I know that the numbers concerned are large. There is a permanent staff of chaplains connected with the Army numbering 120, but I believe I ant not wrong in saying that there is a very large number—necessarily so—of temporary chaplains serving with the Forces numbering, with the permanent chaplains, something like 750. These 750 chaplains are divided about half to the Church of England and about half to all the other Churches combined—the Roman Catholic, the Presbyterian, including the Church of Scotland, the United Free Church, the Irish Presbyterian Church, and certain English Churches. The task of the Church of England is, relatively speaking, an easier one than that of the other Churches, because the other Churches have their men for the most part scattered amongst different units in comparatively small groups, whereas the Church of England men are, speaking generally, massed together in much larger numbers.
I should like to say that I hope it will not be understood that I am saying anything against Bishop Gwynne, who has been given the post of Deputy Chaplain-General. It is very little to him, but it is a considerable pleasure to me to know that I have been on terms of close personal friendship with him for the past twelve years, and I would be the last person to desire to say a word which would give any indication that a wrong thing has been done in placing him where he is if the Church of England desire it, and if it is a purely Church of England matter. But the more that is emphasised the more it makes it extraordinary that the rank of Major-General, superior to that of any other chaplain, should be given under the circumstances in which, as I understand, it has been given. It certainly looked to me, and it has so appeared to many others, that there was a deliberate intention by this appointment to supersede everybody regardless of whether they had done their duty well or ill. I have put this Question for the purpose of eliciting an official statement from those responsible for what

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has been done, and I sincerely hope that it will be of such a nature as will allay the apprehension and to some extent the irritation which has been caused.
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD NEWTON): My Lords, the circumstances in connection with this question are as follows. At the beginning of the war the chaplains, numbering sixty-one, of all denominations attached to the Expeditionary Force were placed under the orders of the Senior Army Chaplain, who happened to be a Presbyterian—Dr. Simms, to whom my noble friend referred—and who was given relative precedence as a Brigadier-General. As time went on it was found necessary largely to increase the number of these chaplains, and on June 16 of this year, in reply to a Question addressed to me by the most rev. Primate, I gave the information that there were 425 chaplains at that time employed with the Expeditionary Force, and that of these 213 belonged to the Church of England. It will be observed that the representatives of the Church of England numbered about half of the total number of chaplains, although the Church of England has an enormous preponderance as regards the Expeditionary Force. Later it was found necessary still further to increase the number of chaplains.
Eventually, in view of the very large increase in the number of chaplains, it became advisable to appoint a chaplain at the Front to be the representative there of the Chaplain-General, and as it was considered necessary that this Deputy Chaplain-General should have episcopal as well as administrative authority Bishop Gwynne, of Khartoum, who had been serving since the war began, was selected. My noble friend has referred to this Prelate as a fourth-class chaplain. I presume that he was a fourth-class chaplain like every one else who volunteered in the war; nevertheless, he was at the same time a Bishop. This appointment was notified by a communiqué in the Press of July 21 last in the following words—
"In view of the large number of Church of England chaplains now serving with the troops under Field-Marshal Sir John French's command, and of the increases which are in course of being made to the British Forces in France, the Secretary of State for War, with the concurrence of the Archbishop of Canterbury, has appointed the Bishop of Khartoum to represent the Chaplain-General at the Front and to be his Deputy there for all purposes connected with the Church of England chaplains and Church of England troops."
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At the same time the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief the British Army in the Field was informed that Bishop Gwynne's duties would be those of a Principal Chaplain, but that his sphere of administration would be limited to matters connected with the chaplains and troops of the Church of England. I hope that announcement will be satisfactory to my noble friend. All matters affecting other denominations were to remain, as heretofore, under the control of Dr. Simms as Principal Chaplain.
At that time—I am speaking of July 31—the number of Church of England chaplains with the Army in France was 244, and the other denominations had, in all, 263 chaplains. The numbers, of course, constantly vary owing to fresh appointments, casualties, and various other causes. At the present moment there are about 370 Church of England chaplains and about the same number, in all, of chaplains of the other recognised denominations serving on the Continent; but the proportion of men of the Church of England to those of other Churches among the troops is much larger. Approximately 70 per cent. of the whole of the Expeditionary Force belong to the Church of England. But the fact, as the noble Lord pointed out, that these men are grouped together in considerable masses while the members of other Churches are usually scattered among different units, renders it necessary that the latter should have a larger number of chaplains in proportion to their men to provide as fully for their requirements.
I hope I have shown to the satisfaction of my noble friend that there is no desire to interfere with the functions of Dr. Simms, and I regret very much to hear that any irritation has been caused by this appointment. I am sure that the last thing that the Secretary of State for War would desire would be that any appointment of this kind should convey a sense of irritation to the persons concerned, and I can assure the noble Lord that there is not, as he seemed to fear, any deliberate intention to supersede any one at all. I have already explained that there is no intention of interfering with the functions of Dr. Simms, and I confess that the titular rank of these two representatives does not appear to me personally to be a matter of great importance. Although my impression may be an erroneous one, I think I may venture to claim that if higher rank

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has been accorded to Bishop Gwynne an easy explanation of that is to be found in the very large preponderance of members of the Church of England to which I have alluded.
EARL GREY: Might I ask the noble Lord whether the religious organisations outside the Anglican Church to which he referred include the Salvation Army?
LORD NEWTON: Speaking from memory, I do not think the Salvation Army is directly represented.
EARL GREY: I should like to know whether the Salvation Army is recognised as an organisation which has a right to be represented with the other Churches.
LORD NEWTON: I will repeat for the noble Earl's information the figures which I gave to the House on June 16 last. I then stated that the number of chaplains of the different denominations was as follows:—Church of England, 213; Roman Catholic, 96; Presbyterians, 55; Wesleyans, 31; United Board (including the Congregationalists, Primitive Methodists, and others), 27; making a total of 425. I do not think that the Salvation Army is included; but, if the noble Earl desires, I shall be very happy to secure the information for him.
EARL GREY: I should be much obliged if the noble Lord would do so, and I reserve to myself the right of approaching your Lordships again on this question at a later date.
THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER: My Lords, the most rev. Primate, who is to-day a little indisposed, wished me to say to your Lordships that he would have been in his place otherwise. In his absence I should like to saw a word or two on this matter, which, as your Lordships will have seen from the speech of Lord Balfour and Lord Newton's reply, is not in the least one of contention or rivalry between the Churches. It reduces itself to the question of a difference in rank between the Bishop now appointed to superintend and assist the Church of England chaplains and Dr. Simms, who by his former position and right of seniority has control over the rest. That is a matter about which I do not suppose any of us here have anything to say. I suppose it is true, as the noble Lord said, that the larger number of Church of England chaplains makes the sphere of the
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newly-appointed Deputy Chaplain-General a considerably larger and more onerous sphere, and, of course, the fact that he is a Bishop distinguishes him somewhat more and concentrates responsibility upon him in a way for which I do not suppose under the Presbyterian system there would be a possibility. This is one of the cases in which the enormously new circumstances of the war have produced new demands and led to a new development. The noble Lord opposite (Lord Balfour) took us back to the Boer War and explained that there was then a want of concentration, or, if we choose another word, a want of organisation. There is no doubt that in the present war we began with a serious want of concentration and organisation about these matters. The fact that all the chaplains of the Church of England were at that time under the control of Dr. Simms, who could not possibly know, as a member or officer of their own Church would have known, exactly their needs, was, I think, just one of the incidental results which followed. The number of Church of England chaplains concerned is a good deal over 300—the equivalent of the staff of beneficed clergy of a small diocese—and there was under our system (and, of course, we must claim that our men should be treated on the lines of that system) a very strong case for the concentration of the superintendence in the hands of a Bishop. I have heard from all sides the satisfaction that this appointment has given to all sorts and kinds of men, the chaplains themselves included; and I feel sure that, whatever difficulty there may be over this small point of difference in rank, it will be found that the new system in main substance is a great improvement, and it is one which I hope will be permanent during the campaign.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF CREWE): Your Lordships will remember that it was agreed that the House should meet tomorrow at half-past three o'clock for the Committee stage of the Naval and Military War Pensions, &c., Bill. I move, therefore, that the House do adjourn until 3.30 to-morrow afternoon.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at Ten minutes before Five o'clock, till Tomorrow, half-past Three o'clock