HL Deb 20 October 1915 vol 19 cc1093-100

LORD STRACHIE rose to ask the Civil Lord of the Admiralty—

  1. 1. Whether the anti-aircraft guns were of any more effect last Wednesday than they were during the previous Zeppelin raid on London.
  2. 2. Whether the great reduction of the lighting of London was of any real value during the last raid in comparison with the previous one.
  3. 3. Whether any steps have been taken to give London as far as possible the same protection from aircraft which Paris enjoys; and if not, why not.
  4. 4. Whether the anti-aircraft guns here were not used effectively against the Zeppelins as they might, have been for fear of doing damage to persons or buildings; and to move for Papers.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, perhaps I ought to explain why for the third time I have placed a Question on the Paper asking the Civil Lord of the Admiralty Whether he will give us information as regards the present state of things. On the two previous occasions I withdrew the Question because I understood that the noble Duke either had no information to give or that the giving of it was undesirable. That was before the Zeppelin raid that has just taken place. I cannot help thinking that it would give much greater confidence to people generally if we were told that something had been done in this matter. The time has come when the Government ought to take the country much more into their confidence than they seem willing to do. I am much emboldened in giving expression to this opinion by what has been said by the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies. Mr. Steel Maitland is not only an able politician but he thoroughly understands what the feeling of the country is by the fact that he is entrusted with the organisation of the Unionist Party. Speaking at Carlisle he suggested that the leaders of the country should take the people into their confidence more and tell them the truth. He thought the more the country was told the truth and the more the country was trusted the less there would be of controversy and the more the country would respond to the needs of the present time. Certainly no one could put better the true feeling of the people at the present moment as regards this question of Zeppelin raids.

I desire to ask my noble friend, first of all, whether the anti-aircraft guns were of any more effect last Wednesday than they were during the previous Zeppelin raid on London. One hears that there was very much less shooting on Wednesday and that whatever there was it was just as ineffective as upon the previous Occasion. If that is so, I think we might be told whether the Government have made up their mind to abandon the use of antiaircraft guns and to adopt some other system. In my next Question I ask whether the great reduction of the lighting of London was of any real value during the last raid in comparison with the previous one. As far as one can judge, it does not seem to have had the slightest, effect in preventing the Zeppelins finding a certain number of vulnerable spots in the metropolis. If the semi-darkness in which we are living is really of no value, would it not be ranch better to adopt less stringent regulations?

Then, I should like to ask my noble friend whether the Government have taken any steps to give London as far as possible the same protection from aircraft which Paris enjoys. The circumstances, I know, are somewhat different here. However, I am credibly informed by noble Lords who know what is going on in Paris that that city is entirely exempt from air raids owing to the admirable precautions that have been there taken. The noble Duke may reply that it is very difficult for us to adopt the same plan with regard to anti-aircraft guns because London is not a fortified city. But that is no defence for not having, as they have in Paris, a great fleet of aeroplanes continually scouting round and about the city. In Paris there is a proper landing place for the aeroplanes. I am told that there is no such landing place nearer London than Hendon. Why not have a landing place at Hyde Park? I hope the noble Duke will not tell me that it is a question of the cutting down of trees and that the First Commissioner of Works will not agree to this being done. I am told that the landing place provided in Paris is not very much larger than the space that would be available in Hyde Park. I was rather amused at the statement made yesterday in the House of Commons that during the last raid we had only three aeroplanes up, as if three small craft of that kind could be of the slightest advantage.

The last Question I put to the noble Duke is whether the anti-aircraft guns here were not used effectively against the Zeppelins as they might have been for fear of doing damage to persons or buildings. Statements are being put about to that effect, but personally I believe them to be untrue. I am sure we do not mind risking our own skins if we can smash the Zeppelins, and I do not think there should be any less shooting on that account if shooting is desirable. I hope that the Civil Lord of the Admiralty will be able to make a clear statement and give us an assurance that something is going to be done in order that London may be protected as effectively as is Paris at the present moment.

THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH

My Lords, before the noble Duke replies might I make a suggestion. During the last raid it was only by a miracle that there was not a terrible catastrophe in the Lyceum Theatre. A bomb fell close to that theatre, actually in the street. What I want to impress upon the noble Duke is this. I understand that the Admiralty have warning of the Zeppelins some time before they arrive over London. Having regard to the safety of the inhabitants of London I think it would be most desirable if some practicable steps could be taken, whether in the form of notices previously printed or in some other way, upon the Admiralty receiving notice that Zeppelins were sighted at sea, by which a warning could be given to the general public to remain in their houses. If some precaution of this kind is not taken, a very heavy responsibility will fall on the authorities who are answerable. I would also like to be told that measures have been taken to remove from the Record Office to some place of safety the wonderful and valuable treasures that there are there. We cannot tell where the next Zeppelin bombs will be dropped, and we ought to be assured that the priceless treasures which exist in public buildings in London will without further delay be removed to places of safety, as has been the case already with most of the prudent private possessors of pictures.

LORD SYDENHAM

My Lords, I think from the terms of the noble Lord's Question that the great difficulties of obtaining practice against aircraft with anti-aircraft guns have not been sufficiently appreciated. In order to get effective practice at night several complicated conditions have invariably to be fulfilled. The attacking Zeppelin must be found by an electric beam, or else it cannot be shot at. When a beam has found it, that beam must continue on the Zeppelin as it passes rapidly over London, or hand it over to another beam. The range of an electric light beam is considerably less than the range of a gun and may be sharply affected by atmospheric conditions. In some conditions of atmosphere its range is very short indeed. Then the gunner must know the range within very narrow limits of accuracy, and the range will change as the Zeppelin moves. The time fuse of the shell must be set very accurately in order that the shell shall burst at the proper distance from the object. There are also difficulties with sighting, because sights are based upon range tables calculated for terrestrial targets, and therefore they are wrong when you begin to shoot up into the air. When all these and other conditions are remembered I think it will be seen that to put untrained and unpractised men in charge of guns like these is very much like expecting a man who has never before fired a gun to bring down driven grouse. My own impression, from watching the shooting last week, was that there was a great deal of random shooting. Some of the shells appeared to be bursting nowhere near the Zeppelins. But if men who had practised frequently at aircraft from the trenches could be brought to London I think that very different results might be obtained.

As to the danger to us of using anti-aircraft guns, I think that is very small provided a time fuse is employed. The fragments from the shells would fall with So that except for the small risk of hitting an individual in the street, risk we must take, there is nothing to fear. Buildings would be entirely immune. The question of the amount of illumination permissible is a very difficult one, and one that can be judged only by careful observations taken at night by our own aircraft. No doubt such observations were made long ago. On clear nights I think it is impossible to prevent a Zeppelin crew knowing they are over a city the size of London, but what you want to do is to prevent them from accurately locating themselves so as to select a special target oil which to drop bombs. If the illumination is kept so low as to prevent the identification of special buildings nothing will be gained by reducing it further. As the illumination gets lower and lower it shows up more prominently our own electric lights, which help to guide the Zeppelins, and it makes more easy any flashing of signals of which aliens in our midst may be guilty. I think we have gone a, little further than necessary in lowering illumination. When the fogs arrive traffic in the streets will become, with the present low illumination, extremely difficult and dangerous, though if the fogs extend far out beyond London they will baffle Zeppelins navigated only by dead reckoning.

I notice that in some quarters it seems to be thought that our aeroplanes ought to cruise over London on the nights when Zeppelins are known to be on their way. I believe that would be useless and dangerous. In the Cast place, as far as I know there have been only two cases in which Zeppelins have been brought down by aeroplanes, and in both cases they were brought down by bombs. Lieutenant Warneford, I think, dropped five or six bombs before the last effected its object. If a fight of that kind were carried on over London we should not only have the danger of Zeppelin bombs but the added danger of our own bombs. In the second place, the aeroplane must have great difficulty in finding a Zeppelin by night and in landing safely afterwards. If you make a great illumination in Hyde Park to guide the aeroplanes back there after they have done their duty, I think you will be showing more to the enemy than is safe. We have already lost some lives and damaged many aerpolanes by sending them on wild goose chases in the dark. The real chance of the aeroplane is to attack the Zeppelin when it reaches our coast line before the light fails, or at points in its course which it passes before nightfall.

The conditions in Paris are very different from those in London, as Mr. Balfour explained in another place. In the first place, Paris is surrounded by a chain of forts powerfully crated and doubtless manned by highly-trained gunners with a large number of anti-aircraft guns. Moreover, any Zeppelin attacking Paris must pass over the line of trenches where they would encounter heavy fire. Then there is the moral factor. I do not think that the killing of women and children in Paris would give the same amount of pride and satisfaction to the Germans as they derive from attacks on London, and that may possibly have some bearing on the immunity of Paris to which the noble Lord referred.

What must astonish us most is the long delay in maturing any proper organisation to oppose these raids. We had ample warning, and threats in abundance. Yet nothing was done until recently to take the question in hand and deal with it properly, and I am not quite sure that even new we can count on such a sound and complete organisation as would prevent any question of a division of responsibility, which, as we know, implies in the long run that there is no responsibility at all. I hope the noble Duke will say that this neglect has been entirely remedied, and that measures have at length been taken which will make these cowardly and brutal enterprises too dangerous to be undertaken. I am strongly opposed to reprisals in kind, but I believe that by proper organisation and proper handling of guns by men who know how to use them we can soon assure ourselves that these raids will never be attempted again.

THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE)

My Lords, the speech which my noble friend who has just sat down has made answers to a very large extant the Questions on the Paper, and I am grateful to him for the support he has given to us on this occasion. Before I reply to Lord Strachie may I deal with the subsidiary questions raised by my noble friend Lord Portsmouth. I am not in a position to make any statement now as to the removal of valuable records and pictures to which he made reference, but if my noble friend will place a Question on the Paper I shall be glad to afford him all the information I can on that subject. With regard to the noble Earl's suggestion as to warning being given, I am told that the probable effect of announcing that Zeppelins were on their way would be to cause a far greater number of people to go into the streets than at present. That is a matter of opinion and of conjecture. But judging by the experience of the two raids which there have been over London, it is thought that any recognised warning given throughout the metropolis would probably lead to the emptying of theatres—which in itself may be a good thing—but at any rate would mean the collection of very large crowds throughout the streets of London.

In reply to Lord Strachie's first Question, I have to say that there is no evidence in the possession of the Admiralty to show that any Zeppelin was brought down by gunfire in either of the two raids on London. With regard to the second Question, that clearly must be a matter more or less of speculation; but in the opinion of the Departments concerned the reduction of lighting in London was of value. As to the third Question, the position of Paris is not on all fours with the position of London. Sir Percy Scott if, aware of what has been done in Paris, and is taking every means at his disposal to adopt such measures here as are possible for our protection. I have to say, with regard to the fourth Question, that there is no foundation for the suggestion contained therein. I can assure my noble friend that the Admiralty do not intend to rest content until every step has been taken to render the defence of the metropolis as efficient as we possibly can. The problems are by no means simple, and require great consideration. We have availed ourselves of all the best information obtainable; no effort has been spared to provide proper material; and I hope we shall be in a position shortly to make the defence of London satisfactory.

LORD STRACHIE

Arising out of the noble Duke's answer, might I ask whether Sir Percy Scott has control of the aeroplanes? From what was said in the House of Commons the other day, it would seem that the aeroplanes are under the control of the Army Council.

THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE

I understand that a Question has been addressed to the Prime Minister with regard to this matter, and that he hopes soon to be in a position to make a reply. At the present moment the Admiralty are responsible, and they are working in close co-operation with Sir Percy Scott, who is responsible for the gunfire.

LORD STRACHIE

And the aeroplanes?

THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE

The Admiralty are responsible for the aeroplanes, and Sir Percy Scott is working in close co-operation with the Admiralty.

Loan SYDENHAM

Is it possible for the Civil Lord of the Admiralty to tell us whether anything has been heard in connection with the last raid about signals having been made by rockets, or flashing up chimneys, or by other means? There have been a great many stories going about as to that, and I think it would be a good thing to have them denied if possible.

THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE

I am afraid I am not in a position to answer that question. I had not heard of it before, but I will make inquiry.