Lords Sitting of 20 October 1915

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (TRAMWAYS AND IMPROVEMENTS) BILL,
  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) Bill.
  Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
GLASGOW WATER ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
Trade Reports (Annual Series)—

No. 5490. China (Amoy, 1914);

No. 5491. Italy (Italy, 1914);

No. 5492. Portugal (Azores, 1914);

No. 5493. Congo (Congo, 1913);

No. 5494. France (French Congo, 1912 to 1931);

No. 5495. Greece (Corfu, 1914);

No. 5496. Portugal (San Thomé and Principe,1914);

No. 5497. Portugal (Southern Angola, 1914);

No. 5498. China (Wuhu, 1914);

No. 5499. China (Wuchow, 1914);

No. 5500. Corea (Corea, 1914);

No. 5501. Peru (Iquitos, 1914);

No. 5502. Egypt (Alexandria, 1914);

No. 5503. Japan (Japan, 1914);

No. 5504. United States (Chicago, 1911);

No. 5505. France (Pondichery and Karikal, 1914);

No. 5506. Bulgaria (Bulgaria,1914);

No. 5507. China (Canton, 1914);

No. 5508. Japan (Dairen, 1914)

No. 5509. China (Kiungehow, 1914):

Colonies (Annual)—

No. 862. Straits Settlements (Report for 1914);

No. 863. Northern Territories of the Cold Coast (Report for 1914);

No. 864. Ashanti (Report for 1914):

Australia—Report to the Board of Trade on the Trade of Australia, for the year 1914, by This Majesty's Trade Commissioner for the Commonwealth of Australia (Mr. G. T. Milne):
New Zealand—Report on the Trade of the Dominion of New Zealand for the year 1914, by Mr. W. G. Wickham (His Majesty's Trade Commissioner for New Zealand):
Rocket Life-Saving Apparatus—Report by the Board of Trade on the Life-Saving Apparatus on the coasts of the United Kingdom for the year ended 30th June 1915:
Reformatory and Industrial Schools—Fifty-eighth Report for the year 1914 of the Chief Inspector of Reformatory and Industrial Schools of Great Britain:
Reformatory and Industrial School (Ireland)—Fifty-third Report of the Inspector for the year ended 31st December 1914:
Irish Land Commission—Return of Advances made under the Irish Land Purchase Acts during the month of February 1915:
India (Sanitary Measures)—Report on Sanitary Measures in India in 1913–1914. Volume XLVII.
Presented (by command) and ordered to lie On the Table.
National Insurance Acts—The National Health Insurance (Medical Benefit) Regulations (Scotland) 1915, dated 8th October 1915:
Universities of Oxford and Cambridge Act, 1877—Statute made by the Governing Body of St. John's College, Oxford, on the 2nd July 1915 (and sealed on the 5th July 1915) amending Statute XVII of the Statutes of the College, by adding after Clause 9 thereof a new Clause numbered 10:
Foreign Jurisdiction Act, 1890—Order in Council, dated the 14th October 1915, entitled the Eastern African Protectorates (Appeal to Privy Council) Amendment Order in Council (No. 2), 1915:
Merchant Shipping Act, 1894— Two Orders in Council, dated the 14th October 1915, made under the Act:
Naval and Marine Pay and Pensions Act, 1865—Four Orders in Council, dated the 14th October 1915, made under the Act:
Dockyard Ports Regulation Act, 1865—Order in Council, dated the 14th October 1915, constituting the Dockyard Ports of Plymouth and Devonport, and repealing the Orders in Council, dated the 11th October 1912 and the 9th February 1911:
Children Act, 1908 (Grant to Day Industrial Schools, Scotland )—Recommendatio of the Secretary for Scotland as to Parliamentary Grant to Certified Day Industrial Schools in Scotland:
Shops Act, 1912—

1. Order by the Secretary for Scotland, dated 15th October 1915, under the Act, affecting certain classes of shops in the City of Edinburgh;

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2. Orders made by the under-mentioned Councils and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, affecting certain classes of shops within their respective areas—

I. County of London (portion of the County of London south of the River Thames);

II. County of Worcester (Urban Districts of Lye and Wollescote) (2 Orders):

Destructive Insects and Pests Acts, 1877 and 1907—Orders, numbered D.I.P. 248–254, inclusive, dated 9th October 1915, declaring the areas described in the Schedules thereto to be infected areas for the purposes of the Wart Disease of Potatoes (Infected Areas) Order of 1914:
Post Office, Foreign and Colonial Post (except Parcels)—The Foreign and Colonial Post Amendment (No. 13) Warrant, 1915, dated 30th June 1915:
Lunacy—Return to the Lord Chancellor of the number of visits made and the number of patients detained under the provisions of the Lunacy Acts, 1890 to 1911, seen by the several Commissioners during the six months ended on the 30th June 1915:
Foreshores—Treasury Minute, dated 12th October 1915, directing the application of moneys received by the Board of Trade in the year ended 31st March 1915, in respect of the rights and interests of the Crown in the Foreshores of the United Kingdom:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and ordered to lie on the Table.

VOLUNTEER BILL. [H.L.]
To be read 2a, On Tuesday next.

IMPORTATION OF H0PS.
LORD HARRIS LORD HARRIS rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether it is true that 147,252 cwts. of hops were imported from abroad from. January up to the end of August, 1915, and what quantity has been imported during September whether the quantity imported from January up to the end of August, 1915, exceeds by 50 per cent. the total importation during 1914 from January to December; and whether the appeal of

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His, Majesty's Government to avoid the purchase of foreign goods is meant to apply to hops.
The noble Lord said: Lords, I am tempted again to bring this question—important only, I admit, to a limited area of the country—before your Lordships' House in consequence of the sympathetic reply as regards the importance which the noble Earl the Minister for Agriculture made when I brought it forward on the former occasion, and also also because since I mentioned the matter last something very important has taken place. The market is Open, and I am sorry to say there is only one description of it—the market is a very ragged one. Factors and merchants and brewers are uncertain as to the future that prices, they can be got at all, are very inadequate and a great many cultivators cannot and a market at all. The consequence, I am afraid, will be what the noble Earl apprehended the other night; there will be a considerable grubbing of hops. That means that a great deal of capital will be scrapped and wasted, and it is an open question whether when the war is Over people will be tempted to put that, capital into this cultivation again.
We have reason to suspect that part of the cause of the present state of things is that hops are being imported from the Continent, if not direct, then through America, and are Cooling from enemy countries. There is no doubt that in 1914 hops were allowed into this country from Germany—I believe that cannot be disputed—under licence. I wish the noble Earl could tell us who was licensed to import German hops after the war commenced. Then there was an importation—I do not say it was large, only 280 cwts.—from a suspicious quarter, namely, Norway, Again, 258 cwts. came from the, Netherlands, apart altogether from the 27,000 cwts. From Belgium. In addition to that, what has affected the market this year is—I only give it as a rumour—that American hops of this year are being offered on the market at very low prices, and it is said that the reason why America can do this is that last year they imported very large quantities of German hops. Therefore they are independent. Either they can sell the German hops here, or they can sell their own. If it were possible for the noble Earl to give us a return showing what the importation of hops into the United
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States front Europe has been during the past twelve months, it would be very informative as to the idea that we have been during this last year buying from America hops which night have come from enemy countries. At any rate I do not think it can be disputed that we have bought from abroad this year something like double the quantity that we imported last year, and as the quantity purchased from abroad last year cost something like £500,000 means, this year's prices sing about the same, that something like £1,000,000 has to be found in some way or other to pay for these foreign hops. That is a pretty big sum. I do not know whether the noble Earl has done so himself, but members of the Government have been imploring the country to avoid as far as possible purchasing from abroad. Yet although this country is perfectly capable of supplying every hop that, is likely to be wanted for years to come, the financial arrangements of the country are such that people who prefer to do so can go into the market and buy foreign hops, thus sending money abroad.
The noble Earl said on the last occasion that he was not prepared to enter into a question of this kind. I do not press him to do so now. At the same time I take the liberty of warning him that what he then apprehended is coming to pass, and that, a cultivation which most important to the poorest classes of the population in its neighbourhood is going to be seriously curtailed. As the noble Earl is likely to know, those who suffer most are the children. I said to a country clergyman that I did not think children were as well clothed now as they were some twenty years ago, and he said, "No. What is more, they don't come to Sunday school as they did twenty years ago. The reason is this. Parents will not send their children to Sunday school unless they are well dressed, particularly in the matter of boots, and the 'hop money' which they earned used to be devoted to buying boots." Now the children in many cases have to go without boots because, in consequence of hops having been grubbed, they cannot earn hop money, and this has been brought about because foreign importations are knocking us out of the markets. During the period of heated argument on the subject of imports, I never advocated Import Duties except upon this one article, hops. I did so for these reasons—

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that it is perfectly possible, as I have said, for every hop required in this country to be grown here; that it is a cultivation which employs more labour per acre than any other; and that it is the poorest classes of the population who benefit by it. That is the actual position, and I desire to draw the attention of the country to the fact that these huge importations are going on in the face of the earnest request of His Majesty's Government that we should avoid as much as possible purchasing articles from abroad.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF SELBORNE): My Lords; I can answer the noble Lord's Questions, though not wholly to my satisfaction any more than to his own. The figure given by the noble Lord of hops imported from abroad from January to August, inclusive, of this year—namely, 147,252 cwts. is correct. The quantity imported in September was 7,182 cwts.—a decrease of over 11,000 on the average of the preceding eight months. If that is any indication of the future—as to which, of course, I can only express a hope, not an opinion—it would seem to show that the buyers of hops in this country may be acting more on the general advice of His Majesty's Government to purchase as little as possible from abroad than they did in the previous months of the year. That advice was most certainly intended to refer to hops as to all other commodities which may either be dispensed with altogether or produced at home. The quantity of hops imported during the first eight months of the current year was, as the noble Lord suggests, about 50 per cent. above the total importation of 1914. But—and I think it is necessary that I should state this, in order to put the matter in its proper perspective—it should be remembered that the 1914 total of 97,306 cwts. was a very low one, the total for 1913 being 262,184 cwts., and that for 1912 being 243,886 cwts. That, I think, answers all the Questions on the Paper.
Then the noble Lord put some supplementary questions to me, some of which I can answer and as to others of which I should like to have notice. He asked what quantities of German hops had been imported under licence in the year 1914, and by whose authority, and why the licence was granted. I do not know, but
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if he will put the question down I will ascertain. Then the noble Lord drew attention to the fact that some hops, not a largo amount, bad been coming from Norway. I quite agree that that is a very suspicious circumstance. I will try and find out where those hops really did come from, for I have never myself heard of hops being grown in Norway, and I think the matter requires the closest investigation. Then the noble Lord said he was informed that a large quantity of German hops had been imported into the United States Of America last year. That I believe to be quite true, and it would have taken place in consequence of contracts made before the Order in Council of last March came into force being admitted by His Majesty's Government as valid, in order not to treat with injustice or harshness American merchants who had already placed these contracts without knowledge of our intentions. Then the noble Lord inferred that American hops were being imported into this country this year because America is stocked with the German hops which they imported last year. That may be so. I have no knowledge of what the consumption has been in America of the German hops imported last year. I can only give the noble Lord the figures of the hops that are being imported into this country at the present time.

INDIAN CIVIL SERVICE (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee—(Lord Islington.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL or DONOUCTIMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Power to appoint to Indian Civil Service without examination.
1.—(1) The Secretary of State in Council may will the advice and assistance of the Civil Service Commissioners make rules providing for the admission and appointment to the Indian Civil Service by the Secretary of State in Council, during the continuance of the present war, and for a period not exceeding two years thereafter, of British subjects possessing such qualifications with respect to age and otherwise as may be prescribed by the rules, notwithstanding that they

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have not been certified as being entitled for appointment as the react of examination in accordance with the regulations and rules made under section thirty-two of the Government, of India Act, 1838, and section ninety-seven of the Government of India Act, l915:
Provided that—

(a) not less than one-fourth of the persons admitted to the Indian Civil Service during such period as aforesaid shall persons who have been so certified as aforesaid; and

(b) a person shall not be appointed to the Indian Civil Service under the rules made under this section unless the Civil Service Commissioners certify that by such means as may be seribed the rules they Intro satisfied themselves that in their opinion he possesses the necessary educational qualifications.

(2) The provisions as to the laying before Parliament of regulations and rules made under the said sections thirty-two and ninety-seven shall apply to the rules made under this section.
LORD MACDONNELL OF SWINFORD: I move to omit paragraph (b) and to insert the new paragraph (3) standing in my name on the Paper. Open competition for the Indian Civil Service has now prevailed for over sixty years and has given universal satisfaction not only in this country but also, I believe, in India; and no departure from that system should, I venture to think, receive approval from your Lordships unless on the most cogent grounds. I myself was satisfied with the statement of those grounds which was made on the Second Reading of this Bill by the noble Lord in charge of it. I think the circumstances of the time amply warrant the departure which is proposed; but if that departure is to be adopted an obligation, in my judgment, lies upon the Government to take precautions that no further variation from the system now in force should be permitted than is absolutely necessary, and that the essential fundamental principle of open competition should be as far as possible rigorously preserved. That principle, as I understand it, is that no favour or partiality shall be shown in allotting appointments, and that allotment shall be determined by the merits of the individual candidates only. That, I believe, is the principle which the noble Lord in charge of the Bill desires to enforce.
It will be in your Lordships' remembrance that in his speech in moving the Second Reading of the Bill the noble Lord foreshadowed the establishment of a repre-
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sentative Committee who were to assist the Secretary of State in making these appointments. Everything depends upon the character of that representative Committee. My object in bringing this Amendment to your Lordships' notice is to secure that this Committee shall be constituted as far as possible the light of public criticism and public opinion. The proposal in the Bill is that rules should be made under which the Committee is to be established. These rules will be framed by the Secretary of State for India after the Bill has come into operation, and action may be taken under the rules immediately on their being made. The law provides that rules framed in this way shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament within a fortnight of their being made, and the only means available to your Lordships and to the other House of Parliament of criticising those rules is to address the Crown with the object of vetoing them. That is a very cumbrous method, and one which is not altogether satisfactory. In my opinion it would be better that the rules should be, framed and submitted for your Lordships' consideration before they take effect. But if that is not permissible—and I admit it is a departure from the usual procedure—then I suggest that the classes of persons front whom the nominations to the Committee should be made should be indicated in the Bill. I believe it is far better for the Secretary of State to win the confidence of the public in that way before the Bill becomes law than to trust to winning that confidence by the character of the appointments made after the Bill has conic into operation.
Everything, as I have said, depends upon the character of this Committee. If you get a Committee which will command public confidence then I foresee that it is very possible that in this way you may secure for the Indian Civil Service a class of officers who will compare favourably, or at all events on Equal terms, with the highest class of officers hitherto appointed. This system has been adopted in manning the Egyptian and the Sudan Civil Service, and I believe it was established—I speak under correction—by Lord Cromer. Seeing the noble Earl, Lord Cromer, in his place, I can appeal to hint for confirmation of my statement that under this system he was able to obtain for the Civil Service of Egypt and the Sudan an excellent class

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of officers. In connection with the investigation into the Public Service here which was made by the Royal Commission over which I had the honour to preside, we made inquiries into the method of recruitment for the Sudan and the Egyptian Civil Service, and I privately called the attention of the noble Lord in charge of this Bill to the evidence which was given in that regard. I believe that the Committee to be appointed under this Bill will not altogether tread new ground, but will be able to derive considerable light from the experience of the Appointments Committee employed by the Oxford and Cambridge Universities in the recruitment of the Sudan Civil Service. At all events, what I wish above all to insist upon is that as much publicity as possible should be given to the constitution of this Committee. Not only should our educational institutions be called upon to nominate members of the Committee, but there should be included upon it men of experience and of weight in public affairs in the world generally. Where you cannot compare the capacities of men by a written examination it is most desirable that you should be able, by their methods of address, by their appearance, by the manner in which they frame their ideas and put them forward, to form an opinion as to the alertness and width of mind of the candidates who present themselves for these appointments.
I am myself a convinced upholder of the system of open competition, but I think that open competition has certain defects which might possibly he remedied by such interviews as I have now indicated. The proposal now is to enter upon a system which shall consist altogether of interviews, and from which the written examination is altogether to be eliminated. In my opinion you cannot form a true conception of the capacity and suitability of candidates by employing on your. Committee University dons and schoolmasters alone. You want also men of the world who have had experience of affairs and are able to say whether the candidate before them is likely to succeed in the career into which he desires to be admitted. That is all I have to say on the main subject of my Amendment. If your Lordships accept it, there will be no need for any subsequent revision of the recommendations of the Committee by the Civil Service Commission. The form of certification for finance purposes
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can readily be arranged for if the Civil Service Commission are authorised to accent the report of the Committee as sufficient authority for their action. I do not think that the Civil Service Commission as now constituted is altogether suitable for the purpose of the functions which this Bill proposes to confer upon the Committee. The question of the competency of the Civil Service Commission was fully considered by the Royal Commission on the Civil Service, who in their Fourth Report made certain suggestions with a view of improving the Civil Service Commission which I hope will in due time receive attention. I am quite satisfied in my own mind that it is far better to have a Committee of the kind that I have ventured to suggest, appointed ad hoc for this particular examination, than to trust the matter to the Civil Service Commission whose functions are properly exercised in a different sort of selection. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Clause 1, page 1, line 22, leave out paragraph (b) and insert the following new paragraph:
(b) The rules shall provide for the creation of a committee (to consist of not more than nine members) to include the First Civil Service Commissioner, a member of authority in public affairs, a proper representation of the Universities of Great Britain and Ireland, and a representative of the Incorporated Association of Head Masters. Such committee shall follow so far as possible time procedure adopted by the Appointments Committees of the Oxford and Cambridge Universities in connection with appointments to the Egyptian and Sudan Civil Service, and shall report to the Secretary of State in Council their opinion upon the respective merits and educational qualifications of candidates for the Indian Civil Service other than those selected by open competition.—(Lord MacDonnell of Swinford.)
THE EARL OF CROMER: I had not intended to speak on this subject, and I merely rise in answer to the appeal which was made to me by the noble Lord to say something about the principle that was adopted in selecting candidates for the Sudanese and Egyptian Civil Service. What was done was this. Every year a small Committee of two or three high officials belonging to the Egyptian and Sudanese Service sat in London to look over the names of candidates who had applied for employment in Egypt and the Sudan. The first thing they did was to look at the medical certificates. The

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member of candidates was always much in excess of the number of vacancies, and the first step taken was to throw out all those whose medical certificates were not first-rate. After that, the Committee looked at the reports from the Appointments Committee of the Oxford and Cambridge Universities and the other information received about the candidates who had not been at those Universities. Then they selected the candidates who appeared to be the most likely and saw them. I agree with the noble Lord that if anything is to be done in the way of a Committee of this sort it is enormously important to select the Committee well and to appoint men whose judgment may be trusted. The system in our case certainly worked well, and we got some good men by it. But I think it is only fair to state that it was tried on a very small scale, the number of men appointed to the Egyptian and Sudanese Civil Service every year being two or three, or, at most, five. Whether the system would work equally well in connection with the larger sphere of the Indian Civil Service is more than. I can say.
LORD SYDENHAM: I agree with what Inv noble friend Lord MacDonnell said in moving his Amendment, except in one particular. I am more doubtful than he is of the validity of the competitive examination as the final test for appointments of this great importance. I think an educational qualification tempered by wise selection probably gives the best results. The one point on which I do not agree with my noble friend's Amendment is think there should be on the Committee one person at least who has lived long in India, who knows the conditions of the work which those men would have to perform, and who also understands the kind of stress they would have to endure in that country. If such an addition were made to the Amendment I think it would moot the circumstances and the requirements of this important Bill.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY or STATE FOR INDIA (LORD ISLINGTON): I desire to associate myself with the remarks made by my noble friend who moved the Amendment in regard to the seriousness of this departure in suspending open competitive examination for entry into the Indian Civil Service. I will not delay the House
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this afternoon by repeating what I said on that subject in the debate on the Second Reading the other night, but I am sure it must be in the minds of all noble Lords that the circumstances of the war make it inevitable, if we are to ensure anything like the same standard of recruit for the Service in the future that, has been admitted to it in the past, that some means other than that of competitive examination must for the time being be devised. And for this reason, that a very large proportion of the candidates from the various Universities, instead of, as in the ordinary course, preparing for the examinations, are now occupied with either the Naval or the Military Forces of the Crown, and many of them are gallantly fighting for their country at the Front.
It is necessary, first of all, owing to this depletion, to adopt means by which we can ensure as soon as possible a high standard of candidates. It is also equally important that we should devise means by which those who have gallantly joined the Forces should in no way be disqualified or diverted from the career that they had hoped to enter upon in joining the Indian Civil Service. Therefore selection for a time, for the period of the war and for two years after, and in part—for three-quarters of the vacancies—is the main proposal of the Bill. The principle embodied in my noble friend's Amendment s is in entire accord with the scheme in contemplation by the Government. As I said on the Second Reading, the Government propose to set up a strong and representative Committee to undertake the work of selection. As far, therefore, as the final object is concerned there is no difference of opinion between my noble friend and the Government; and if I find myself unable to accept the Amendment which he has moved, at any rate precisely in its present form, I hope I may be able to persuade my noble friend that that fact will in no way prejudice the method of selection.
The Government consider that the constitution and powers of the Committee can best be established by regulation. My noble friend thinks that such establishment can best be introduced into the Bill. He went so far as to say that he would prefer to see the establishment of the Committee and its powers precede the Bill which is to set up the Committee. There are

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advantages in postponing the establishment of the Committee to regulations rather than embodying it in the Bill. In the first place, the selection of candidates, whenever it may take place—and it. is impossible at this juncture to say when it will take place—must be made on what I may call broad and generous grounds. Many of the hitherto standards will have to be looked at with a more lenient eve in the peculiar circumstances in which we shall stand when these candidates present themselves for entry into the Indian Civil Service. It may be that in the course of the next year some of those now fighting at the Front may be disabled to the extent of being unable to continue with the armed Forces of the Crown whilst at the same time their injuries may not be of sufficiently severe a character to disable them from passing the Medical Board for entry into and becoming useful members of the Indian Civil Service. But, of course, that is all hypothetical. We cannot say how many there will be who will be available in those circumstances; and it may be that the Selection Committee's work may have to be postponed until a later date, possibly until the termination of the war. As to the constitution of the Committee, my noble friend is anxious that there should be embodied in the four-corners of the Bill the actual personnel of the Committee. There are certain objections to that.
Loan MACDONNELL OF SWINFORD: I asked that you should embody the classes from which the personael, the actual people, ought to be taken. I foresaw that you would not be able in the Bill to name the actual members, but you ought, I thought, to name the sources from which the actual members should be taken.
LORD ISLINGTON: That would remove a certain objection. But there, again, it will tend to the better efficiency of the Selection Committee if time can be allowed for the Government to see from where the candidates are coming, whether they are coming in large numbers from one University or another, and the various conditions which there may be connected with the candidates if they come at the end of a prolonged war. I can see advantages in postponement being allowed in order that the constitution of the Committee may be framed in such a way as to meet whatever difficulties may present
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themselves at the time. Representation of the Universities—a broad generic term—would be difficult to define in selecting gentlemen to represent adequately and harmoniously all the various Universities. That will have, of course, to be carefully considered when the time comes.
There is another objection to the Amendment which I would like to bring before my noble friend. The object of paragraph (b) as it stands in the clause is for another and preliminary purpose to that of the actual work which will be discharged by the Selection Committee. The idea is that with the assistance of the Civil Service Commissioners the Secretary of State in Council may be enabled to assess a broad minimum of educational attainment no candidate below which will be entitled to go before the Selection Committee. That will be necessary because, as your Lordships know, the open competitive examination for the Indian Civil Service is a very severe one and a very high test of intellectual attainment. Whilst owing to the war and the removal of these young men from the various Universities they will not have the advantage of training to the high standard that has hitherto characterised candidates for the Indian Civil Service, at the same time I am sure your Lordships will agree that some minimum standard of education must be fixed below which it would not be advisable, or necessary even, for candidates to present themselves before the Selection Committee; and the Civil Service Commissioners are obviously the proper body to advise the Secretary of State in regard to matters of this kind. They are accustomed to set papers for and to control examinations, and they understand from long experience the broad equating of the various standards from different Universities.
There may be one or other ways by which this test of a minimum standard may be arrived at, and that, will be for the Secretary of State in Council, advised by the Civil Service Commissioners, to decide and to embody in the regulations. It may be laid down that candidates must have passed some examination towards a degree in one or other of the Universities from which they have been drawn. It may be, on the other hand, that the simplest and fairest manner of arriving at, the test will be a broad qualifying examination. That is a matter which will have to be very carefully

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considered, and in due course will be embodied in the regulations. Your Lordships will see that there are two definite and distinct processes—first, the test of a minimum educational standard; and then, when that standard has been passed, presenting the candidate before a representative Selection Committee. The analogy of the Egyptian and Sudanese examination, as the noble Earl on the Cross Benches remarked, has a certain weakness, because in the one case the average number of entries is five or six a year, whereas in the case of the Indian Civil Service the average number is over fifty; and if selection has to be postponed and you get an accumulation of years, it will be, of course, a very much larger number than that. Therefore some form of sifting the candidates before they come to the Selection Committee seems to be necessary.
It may be that my noble friend considers that paragraph (b) now in the clause gives rather too much power to the Civil Service Commissioners. If the suggested new paragraph (b) which I will read to the House would more nearly meet Lord MacDonnell's views than the paragraph as it stands I should be very glad to propose it in due course. The words which I suggest are—
"A person shall not be appointed to the Indian Civil Service under the rules made under this section unless the Secretary of State in Council has, with the advice and assistance of the Civil Service Commissioners, satisfied himself, in such manner as may be prescribed by the rules, that such person possesses the necessary educational qualifications."
That makes more clear and definite the complete authority of the Secretary of State in Council, who will merely take the advice of the Civil Service Commissioners rather than, as now embodied in the clause, be dependent upon a certificate issued by the Civil Service Commissioners. I do not think there were any other points raised to which it is necessary for me to allude. I would, however, assure Lord MacDonnell that when the Selection Committee is constituted very careful consideration will be given to all the points that he brought forward.
We fully realise that in substituting selection for open competition, even for a time and even though it be partial, we are making a great departure and one which will be regarded by many in India with a certain amount of suspicion, though I hope that all reasonable people will see the absolute necessity of this step in the circumstances. But as far as selection can be freed from
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anything in the nature of patronage or of preference, that matter will be very carefully considered in constituting the Committee, and great care will also be taken as regards getting gentlemen on to the Committee who are able to speak from the various points of view—not merely the educational point of view, but the point of view of India and the point of view of knowledge of the military conditions under which these young men will have been working during the previous years.
One word with regard to the Indians. My noble friend suggested the other day that another Committee should be set up in India with a view to selecting Indians if the proportion to be admitted by open competition had not been made up. We have considered that, and have come to the conclusion that the fairest and simplest means is to allow those Indians on the list who were unsuccessful in the open competition to have admission to the Service provided they fulfil the necessary qualifications and pass the Medical Board. I do not say this absolutely definitely, because these matters, of course, have to be decided and dealt with in consultation with the Government of India; but we are strongly of opinion, and we have it in contemplation, that this would be the best and fairest course to adopt where the proportion of Indians falls short of previous years. I am sorry I cannot accept my noble friend's Amendment, but I hope my explanation will allay his fears that due consideration is not going to be given to the constitution of the Selection Committee.
THE EARL OF CROMER: The noble Lord in charge of the Bill has suggested the insertion of words to the effect that the Secretary of State in Council should be Satisfied "that such person possesses the necessary educational qualifications." I suggest that after the word "educational" the noble Lord should insert "and medical," because the medical test for these appointments in hot climate, is quite as important as the educational test.
LORD ISLINGTON: All the candidates will be bound to go before the Medical Board and pass the medical test. That comes under a rather different category from the work which the Civil Service Commissioners would have to discharge. I think the point raised by Lord Cromer is fully met by the fact that the Medical Board will test all these candidates.
THE EARL OF CROMER: Very well.
LORD MAC DONNELL OF SWINFORD: The essential matter which I wished to bring under your Lordships' notice was that, having regard to the great change from competition to this system of nomination, the utmost publicity possible should be given to the constitution of the Committee at the time of its being constituted, in order that if any objections were taken by any section of the public they might be discussed in your Lordships' House and thoroughly ventilated. That point, I am afraid, was missed by my noble friend Lord Islington. It may have been my fault. I may not have put my views with sufficient perspicacity. But my contention was that if the personnel of the Committee could not be mentioned in the Bill—which I thought would be the better plan—the operation of the Act should be postponed until the rules had been framed and subjected to your Lordships' consideration. As matters now stand, the rules will be framed by the Secretary of State—I have not the least doubt with the intention of carrying out all the objects which the noble Lord has mentioned—but they will not see the light of day until they are placed before your Lordships' House and possibly not until appointments have been made under them. There will then be no possibility of considering or criticising the rules except in circumstances which limit your Lordships to either approval or carrying a Motion vetoing the rules. I think that in this very important matter the House and the country generally are placed at a great disadvantage in trusting altogether to the wisdom and the forethought of the Secretary of State. Animated by the most excellent intentions he may misunderstand altogether and misinterpret the feelings of certain classes of the people. The noble Lord has referred to the necessity of associating the Civil Service Commissioners with the Secretary of State in the subsequent part of the proceedings, especially in regard to the educational test which has to be demanded. There is nothing more simple than to put in the rules a statement that no candidate will be entitled to apply unless he has passed either, if you want a very low qualification, the Secondary Educational Final Examination, or, if you want a higher examination, a degree of a University. That would be acceptable as proof positive that the candidate had
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acquired a certain educational qualification. To ask the Civil Service Commissioners by talking to a candidate to say that he has acquired a certain educational knowledge is to ask from the Commissioners information which it is very difficult for them to supply. I am most anxious not to inconvenience the Government and not to stand in the way of the passage of this Bill, but this is a most important matter, important not only as regards this country but as regards India, and I think there will be misapprehensions and suspicions of favouritism, and so for h, unless advantage is taken of this opportunity of having the rules made in as public a manner as possible.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: I think every one of us sympathises with Lord MacDonnell's desire that there should be the most careful selection of these candidates; but after what has been said by the noble Lord the Under-Secretary, it is perfectly clear that the India Office propose to proceed practically on the principle laid down by Lord MacDonnell. Therefore I think we might put confidence in the Secretary of State in the case of a temporary provision of this character. Certainly if the noble Lord presses his Amendment, which I hope he will not do, I shall vote with the Government.
LORD MAC DONNELL OF SWINFORD LORD MAC DONNELL OF SWINFORD I should like, before my Amendment is put, to amend the words "a member of authority in public affairs." I desire this to read "members of authority in public affairs, English and Indian."
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: The first Question I have to put is whether paragraph (b) should remain in the clause.
On Question, paragraph (b) deleted.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: I will now put the new paragraph (b) moved by Lord MacDonnell.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
LORD ISLINGTON: I move to insert the new paragraph (b) which I have read to the House.
Amendment moved—
Clause 1, page 1, line 22, insert the following new paragraph:
"(b) A person shall not be appointed to the Indian Civil Service under the rules made under this section unless the Secretary of State in Council has, with the advice and assistance of the Civil Service Commissioners, satisfied himself, in such manner as may be prescribed by the rules, that such person possesses the necessary educational qualifications."—(Lord Islington.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
The Report of Amendment to be received on Tuesday next, and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 164.)

ZEPPELIN RAIDS ON LONDON.
LORD STRACHIE LORD STRACHIE rose to ask the Civil Lord of the Admiralty—

1. Whether the anti-aircraft guns were of any more effect last Wednesday than they were during the previous Zeppelin raid on London.

2. Whether the great reduction of the lighting of London was of any real value during the last raid in comparison with the previous one.

3. Whether any steps have been taken to give London as far as possible the same protection from aircraft which Paris enjoys; and if not, why not.

4. Whether the anti-aircraft guns here were not used effectively against the Zeppelins as they might, have been for fear of doing damage to persons or buildings; and to move for Papers.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, perhaps I ought to explain why for the third time I have placed a Question on the Paper asking the Civil Lord of the Admiralty Whether he will give us information as regards the present state of things. On the two previous occasions I withdrew the Question because I understood that the noble Duke either had no information to give or that the giving of it was undesirable. That was before the Zeppelin raid that has just taken place. I cannot help thinking that it would give much greater confidence to people generally if we were told that something had been done in
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this matter. The time has come when the Government ought to take the country much more into their confidence than they seem willing to do. I am much emboldened in giving expression to this opinion by what has been said by the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies. Mr. Steel Maitland is not only an able politician but he thoroughly understands what the feeling of the country is by the fact that he is entrusted with the organisation of the Unionist Party. Speaking at Carlisle he suggested that the leaders of the country should take the people into their confidence more and tell them the truth. He thought the more the country was told the truth and the more the country was trusted the less there would be of controversy and the more the country would respond to the needs of the present time. Certainly no one could put better the true feeling of the people at the present moment as regards this question of Zeppelin raids.
I desire to ask my noble friend, first of all, whether the anti-aircraft guns were of any more effect last Wednesday than they were during the previous Zeppelin raid on London. One hears that there was very much less shooting on Wednesday and that whatever there was it was just as ineffective as upon the previous Occasion. If that is so, I think we might be told whether the Government have made up their mind to abandon the use of antiaircraft guns and to adopt some other system. In my next Question I ask whether the great reduction of the lighting of London was of any real value during the last raid in comparison with the previous one. As far as one can judge, it does not seem to have had the slightest, effect in preventing the Zeppelins finding a certain number of vulnerable spots in the metropolis. If the semi-darkness in which we are living is really of no value, would it not be ranch better to adopt less stringent regulations?
Then, I should like to ask my noble friend whether the Government have taken any steps to give London as far as possible the same protection from aircraft which Paris enjoys. The circumstances, I know, are somewhat different here. However, I am credibly informed by noble Lords who know what is going on in Paris that that city is entirely exempt from air raids owing to the admirable precautions that have been there taken. The noble Duke may reply that it is very difficult for us

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to adopt the same plan with regard to anti-aircraft guns because London is not a fortified city. But that is no defence for not having, as they have in Paris, a great fleet of aeroplanes continually scouting round and about the city. In Paris there is a proper landing place for the aeroplanes. I am told that there is no such landing place nearer London than Hendon. Why not have a landing place at Hyde Park? I hope the noble Duke will not tell me that it is a question of the cutting down of trees and that the First Commissioner of Works will not agree to this being done. I am told that the landing place provided in Paris is not very much larger than the space that would be available in Hyde Park. I was rather amused at the statement made yesterday in the House of Commons that during the last raid we had only three aeroplanes up, as if three small craft of that kind could be of the slightest advantage.
The last Question I put to the noble Duke is whether the anti-aircraft guns here were not used effectively against the Zeppelins as they might have been for fear of doing damage to persons or buildings. Statements are being put about to that effect, but personally I believe them to be untrue. I am sure we do not mind risking our own skins if we can smash the Zeppelins, and I do not think there should be any less shooting on that account if shooting is desirable. I hope that the Civil Lord of the Admiralty will be able to make a clear statement and give us an assurance that something is going to be done in order that London may be protected as effectively as is Paris at the present moment.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: My Lords, before the noble Duke replies might I make a suggestion. During the last raid it was only by a miracle that there was not a terrible catastrophe in the Lyceum Theatre. A bomb fell close to that theatre, actually in the street. What I want to impress upon the noble Duke is this. I understand that the Admiralty have warning of the Zeppelins some time before they arrive over London. Having regard to the safety of the inhabitants of London I think it would be most desirable if some practicable steps could be taken, whether in the form of notices previously printed or in some other way, upon the Admiralty receiving notice that Zeppelins
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were sighted at sea, by which a warning could be given to the general public to remain in their houses. If some precaution of this kind is not taken, a very heavy responsibility will fall on the authorities who are answerable. I would also like to be told that measures have been taken to remove from the Record Office to some place of safety the wonderful and valuable treasures that there are there. We cannot tell where the next Zeppelin bombs will be dropped, and we ought to be assured that the priceless treasures which exist in public buildings in London will without further delay be removed to places of safety, as has been the case already with most of the prudent private possessors of pictures.
LORD SYDENHAM: My Lords, I think from the terms of the noble Lord's Question that the great difficulties of obtaining practice against aircraft with anti-aircraft guns have not been sufficiently appreciated. In order to get effective practice at night several complicated conditions have invariably to be fulfilled. The attacking Zeppelin must be found by an electric beam, or else it cannot be shot at. When a beam has found it, that beam must continue on the Zeppelin as it passes rapidly over London, or hand it over to another beam. The range of an electric light beam is considerably less than the range of a gun and may be sharply affected by atmospheric conditions. In some conditions of atmosphere its range is very short indeed. Then the gunner must know the range within very narrow limits of accuracy, and the range will change as the Zeppelin moves. The time fuse of the shell must be set very accurately in order that the shell shall burst at the proper distance from the object. There are also difficulties with sighting, because sights are based upon range tables calculated for terrestrial targets, and therefore they are wrong when you begin to shoot up into the air. When all these and other conditions are remembered I think it will be seen that to put untrained and unpractised men in charge of guns like these is very much like expecting a man who has never before fired a gun to bring down driven grouse. My own impression, from watching the shooting last week, was that there was a great deal of random shooting. Some of the shells appeared to be bursting nowhere near the Zeppelins. But if men who had practised frequently at aircraft from the

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trenches could be brought to London I think that very different results might be obtained.
As to the danger to us of using anti-aircraft guns, I think that is very small provided a time fuse is employed. The fragments from the shells would fall with So that except for the small risk of hitting an individual in the street, risk we must take, there is nothing to fear. Buildings would be entirely immune. The question of the amount of illumination permissible is a very difficult one, and one that can be judged only by careful observations taken at night by our own aircraft. No doubt such observations were made long ago. On clear nights I think it is impossible to prevent a Zeppelin crew knowing they are over a city the size of London, but what you want to do is to prevent them from accurately locating themselves so as to select a special target oil which to drop bombs. If the illumination is kept so low as to prevent the identification of special buildings nothing will be gained by reducing it further. As the illumination gets lower and lower it shows up more prominently our own electric lights, which help to guide the Zeppelins, and it makes more easy any flashing of signals of which aliens in our midst may be guilty. I think we have gone a, little further than necessary in lowering illumination. When the fogs arrive traffic in the streets will become, with the present low illumination, extremely difficult and dangerous, though if the fogs extend far out beyond London they will baffle Zeppelins navigated only by dead reckoning.
I notice that in some quarters it seems to be thought that our aeroplanes ought to cruise over London on the nights when Zeppelins are known to be on their way. I believe that would be useless and dangerous. In the Cast place, as far as I know there have been only two cases in which Zeppelins have been brought down by aeroplanes, and in both cases they were brought down by bombs. Lieutenant Warneford, I think, dropped five or six bombs before the last effected its object. If a fight of that kind were carried on over London we should not only have the danger of Zeppelin bombs but the added danger of our own bombs. In the second place, the aeroplane must have great difficulty in finding a Zeppelin by night
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and in landing safely afterwards. If you make a great illumination in Hyde Park to guide the aeroplanes back there after they have done their duty, I think you will be showing more to the enemy than is safe. We have already lost some lives and damaged many aerpolanes by sending them on wild goose chases in the dark. The real chance of the aeroplane is to attack the Zeppelin when it reaches our coast line before the light fails, or at points in its course which it passes before nightfall.
The conditions in Paris are very different from those in London, as Mr. Balfour explained in another place. In the first place, Paris is surrounded by a chain of forts powerfully crated and doubtless manned by highly-trained gunners with a large number of anti-aircraft guns. Moreover, any Zeppelin attacking Paris must pass over the line of trenches where they would encounter heavy fire. Then there is the moral factor. I do not think that the killing of women and children in Paris would give the same amount of pride and satisfaction to the Germans as they derive from attacks on London, and that may possibly have some bearing on the immunity of Paris to which the noble Lord referred.
What must astonish us most is the long delay in maturing any proper organisation to oppose these raids. We had ample warning, and threats in abundance. Yet nothing was done until recently to take the question in hand and deal with it properly, and I am not quite sure that even new we can count on such a sound and complete organisation as would prevent any question of a division of responsibility, which, as we know, implies in the long run that there is no responsibility at all. I hope the noble Duke will say that this neglect has been entirely remedied, and that measures have at length been taken which will make these cowardly and brutal enterprises too dangerous to be undertaken. I am strongly opposed to reprisals in kind, but I believe that by proper organisation and proper handling of guns by men who know how to use them we can soon assure ourselves that these raids will never be attempted again.
THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, the speech which my noble friend who has just sat down has made answers to

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a very large extant the Questions on the Paper, and I am grateful to him for the support he has given to us on this occasion. Before I reply to Lord Strachie may I deal with the subsidiary questions raised by my noble friend Lord Portsmouth. I am not in a position to make any statement now as to the removal of valuable records and pictures to which he made reference, but if my noble friend will place a Question on the Paper I shall be glad to afford him all the information I can on that subject. With regard to the noble Earl's suggestion as to warning being given, I am told that the probable effect of announcing that Zeppelins were on their way would be to cause a far greater number of people to go into the streets than at present. That is a matter of opinion and of conjecture. But judging by the experience of the two raids which there have been over London, it is thought that any recognised warning given throughout the metropolis would probably lead to the emptying of theatres—which in itself may be a good thing—but at any rate would mean the collection of very large crowds throughout the streets of London.
In reply to Lord Strachie's first Question, I have to say that there is no evidence in the possession of the Admiralty to show that any Zeppelin was brought down by gunfire in either of the two raids on London. With regard to the second Question, that clearly must be a matter more or less of speculation; but in the opinion of the Departments concerned the reduction of lighting in London was of value. As to the third Question, the position of Paris is not on all fours with the position of London. Sir Percy Scott if, aware of what has been done in Paris, and is taking every means at his disposal to adopt such measures here as are possible for our protection. I have to say, with regard to the fourth Question, that there is no foundation for the suggestion contained therein. I can assure my noble friend that the Admiralty do not intend to rest content until every step has been taken to render the defence of the metropolis as efficient as we possibly can. The problems are by no means simple, and require great consideration. We have availed ourselves of all the best information obtainable; no effort has been spared to provide proper material; and I hope we shall be in a position shortly to make the defence of London satisfactory.
LORD STRACHIE: Arising out of the noble Duke's answer, might I ask whether Sir Percy Scott has control of the aeroplanes? From what was said in the House of Commons the other day, it would seem that the aeroplanes are under the control of the Army Council.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I understand that a Question has been addressed to the Prime Minister with regard to this matter, and that he hopes soon to be in a position to make a reply. At the present moment the Admiralty are responsible, and they are working in close co-operation with Sir Percy Scott, who is responsible for the gunfire.
LORD STRACHIE: And the aeroplanes?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The Admiralty are responsible for the aeroplanes, and Sir Percy Scott is working in close co-operation with the Admiralty.
Loan SYDENHAM: Is it possible for the Civil Lord of the Admiralty to tell us whether anything has been heard in connection with the last raid about signals having been made by rockets, or flashing up chimneys, or by other means? There have been a great many stories going about as to that, and I think it would be a good thing to have them denied if possible.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I am afraid I am not in a position to answer that question. I had not heard of it before, but I will make inquiry.

THE EXECUTION OF MISS CAVELL.
THE EARL OF DESART THE EARL OF DESART rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether they are able to furnish particulars of the case of Miss Edith Cavell, who, as it is stated, was executed by order of the German authorities in Belgium on the charge of harbouring British, French, and Belgian soldiers, and assisting them to escape from Belgium; and whether they have information as to any other ladies being under trial or sentence on similar charges.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, it is but a few clays since that we listened with feelings of horror to the account given by the noble Viscount (Lord Bryce) of the terrible massacres of Armenians com-

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mitted under Turkish orders. Fresh in our memories are the brutalities and massacres committed by the Germans in Belgium and in France, and also the murder of innocent non-combatants by German submarines and aircraft. One had almost thought that the possibilities of ruthlessness had been exhausted, and that whatever instance might arise in the future there could be nothing in its nature that would shock the conscience more than, or as much as, those awful things that had taken place. When a few days ago we read in the Press the story to which my Question relates we felt that here was something not comparable, perhaps, in its horror or the extent of its consequences, but in kind as terrible as, or more terrible than, anything that had come to our knowledge since the commencement of the war. I know it so affected me. The few words which I shall address to your Lordships this evening I speak on the information which we have from the newspapers. We are familiar, terribly familiar, with the ruthlessness of German commanders. We know but too well the brutality in many cases of the forces acting under their command. And this case brings it home to us that their tribunals and those who have the power and privilege of exercising clemency are not free from the smite spirit and are not unwilling to exercise the same ruthlessness.
What are the facts of this case so far as they are known, or, at any rate, so far as we know them from the newspapers? Miss Edith Cavell was a lady of middle age, of unblemished reputation and character, living in Brussels and engaged in works of humanity and kindness—the training of nurses for the relief of humanity. She was charged with doing that which no doubt is an offence against the laws of war. The charge was that she assisted her fellow-countrymen and subjects of our Allies in distress to conceal themselves from the Germans and to escape from German control. That was her offence. She was tried in cold blood; she was convicted in cold blood; she was executed in cold blood. Here was no case of immediate terror of those who arraigned her, none of the excitement of lust, of blood and battle; it was an act of so-called justice, so conceived, so carried out to the bitter end. The scene of her execution was described in the news
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papers. I do not propose to remind your Lordships of it. It is one of those things of which one can hardly speak without more emotion than is suitable in this place. In time of war every belligerent has the right to protect itself against the offence with which Miss Cavell was charged. That she was liable to punishment of some kind I could not and do not dispute. That punishment would be such as was necessary to prevent her from carrying on the assistance she had been rendering and to warn others that they could not adopt that course without consequences. It may even be that a sentence of execution was technically one that, might be passed. But I do not think there is one of your Lordships who will differ from me when I say that though that sentence might be passed it was one that most emphatically would never have been carried out on a woman by any other country but Germany.
This is a matter which will appeal to all the world. As I have said, I do not dispute that these things must be guarded against in war time. In the case of espionage, with deadly danger to the State, there may be no measure that you are not justified, however unwillingly, in applying. But I cannot help thinking that if this offence had been committed by a German lady in this country to assist her fellow-countrymen to escape, we should have, taken prompt measures to prevent its recurrence, but there would have been no suggestion of imposing more rigorous conditions than were necessary for that purpose. This is a case of which it is seemly that some notice should be taken and some protest made in this country. As we have spoken about other horrors, we may say one word in this House to express our detestation of this particular one. Impotent as we are to punish, far away as may be retribution, I think our voices may now be raised. I think that all the facts should be made known. Those facts should reach the humane men and women of neutral countries. And not only neutral countries but Germany itself, for I cannot believe that when the facts are known there will not be some there who will feel as bitterly as we do the scandal that the governing powers should have permitted this execution. I have not confined my Question to the case of Miss Cavell, but also ask for information relating to other ladies, because there is a belief that there are other persons under similar

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charges lying in similar peril who have not yet suffered. Not perhaps by our action but through the action of neutral countries it might be possible to prevent a recurrence of what I venture to describe as one of the greatest tragedies of the war. I beg to put the Question which stands in my name.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Crewe has been called away from the House and has asked me to reply to the Question which has just been addressed to the Government by my noble friend opposite. May I be permitted, in the first place, to say that I am not surprised, and I am sure no member of your Lordships' House can be surprised, that the noble Earl should have called attention to this most deplorable incident. We have been during the last few months continually shocked by occurrences each more terrible and moving than its predecessor; but I doubt whether any incident has moved public opinion in this country more than the manner in which this poor lady was, I suppose I must say, "executed" in cold blood not many hours ago. It is no doubt the case—my noble friend did not disguise it from himself—that she may by her conduct have rendered herself liable to punishment—perhaps to severe punishment—for acts committed in violation of the kind of law which prevails when war is going on. But I have no hesitation in saying that she might at any rate have expected that measure of mercy which I believe in no civilised country would have beers refused to one who was not only a woman, but a very brave and devoted woman, and one who had given all her efforts and energies to the mitigation of the sufferings of others.
I am able to tell my noble friend that a full Report relating to the circumstances under which Miss Cavell was executed was forwarded to the Foreign Office yesterday by the United States Ambassador. We learn from this Report that the representatives of the United States and of Spain at Brussels up to the very last moment neglected no opportunity or effort in order to obtain a commutation of the death sentence passed on Miss Cavell, or even to obtain at least a period of suspense before that sentence was carried into effect. Those efforts failed. The material portions of the Report to which I refer will be published without delay.
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With regard to the second part of my noble friend's Question, I am able to tell him that two French ladies have been condemned to death on a charge of sheltering British and French fugitive soldiers. These ladies were to have been executed on Monday last, but I am glad to be able to add that as the result of strong representations made by His Majesty the King of Spain and by the Pope the execution of these sentences has been postponed pending consideration by the German Emperor of the reports on both cases. I will only add that I am convinced that there is not a man or woman in this country who will not join with the noble Earl in the protest he has made.
THE EARL OF DESART: There was a list of names, more than those of the two French ladies, in the newspapers this morning of people who had been sentenced to various terms of penal servitude. I do not ask for an answer now, but possibly at some future time we may be informed whether or not those reports are correct.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I would rather not make any statement upon that at the moment.

SIR E. CARSON'S RESIGNATION.
LORD WILLOUGHBY DE BROKE: My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government why Sir Edward Carson has resigned his office. I am well aware that this is a question which may be very difficult to answer, but I think your Lordships will agree that it is not an unnatural one to be put. When at such a time as this a Minister whose integrity, courage, and strength of purpose must be a valuable national asset apparently tenders his resignation and leaves the Government, it is bound to excite a great deal of public curiosity and anxiety. The truth attending Sir Edward Carson's resignation will, I submit to your Lordships, have to be disclosed to the nation sooner or later; and perhaps it will be well, if it is not impertinent for me to offer advice to the Government to say that this public anxiety should be allayed at the earliest possible moment. For instance, people are asking one another whether Sir Edward Carson resigned on account of something to do with Home Rule for Ireland; whether his resignation is in any war connected with the question of National Service;

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whether he resigned because he had a policy and His Majesty's Government had no policy at all; whether he resigned because he had a different policy from that of His Majesty's Ministers, and, if so, what was that policy and what is the difference.
I know quite well that I shall not receive a very conclusive or satisfying answer to my Question. I shall probably be told that Sir Edward carson will make his own statement in his own House at the proper time. I hope that I shall get that answer. I am voicing what every one to whom I have spoken feels when I express the wish that if that statement is made it will be complete in every possible way and that we shall knew the whole story. On the other hand I may be told that it is undesirable in the public interest to lift even the corner of the veil of secrecy with regard to Sir EC ward Carson's resignation; that there are some things about which one ought not to speak for fear of disheartening our Allies and heartening our enemies.
I hope it will not be out of place if I say a word with regard to the suppression of news that has been going on since the war began. I have not mixed very much in political circles during the last twelve months, but I am not giving an unfair account of what being said by everybody with regard to the Censorship or suppression of news generally when I say that if the withholding of news is dictated purely by military and naval necessities—if an Adimiral or a Field-Marshal says that certain news is not to be published, and if the country was told that it was on military or naval authority that news was being so withheld—the people would cheerfully acquiesce. But there seems to be a very general impression——it may or may not be well founded—that news is being kept bark and things glossed over, not because the naval or the military operations demanded it, but because the position of politicians demanded that certain things should not be brought to light. With the greatest respect if suggest that this kind of thing breeds mistrust of the Government out of doors and is the one thing likely to react unfavourably and dangerously upon their authority in the country. Are you quite sure, my Lords, that the secrecy to which we have been treated is, after all, so very necessary? Will it make such a tremendous difference to the attitude of Germany towards this country? Is it not true that there are things published in
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the German newspapers which are suppressed from the British newspapers, things which we might very easily know?
I address this last remark to His Majesty's Government with all the sincerity that I can command. It seems to some of us that what is dragging us down now and is more likely to cause comfort and support to the enemy than the publication of news is a deliberate and well-organised pacifist, in effect pro-German, propaganda which is in progress all over the country. Why do you not suppress that? The people who are conducting this agitation are those whom we should like to see suppressed. I am not speaking without the book. I saw a well known citizen of this country yesterday afternoon, and I was informed beyond a shadow of doubt that there is a most dangerous anti-national campaign being carried on in this country which has for its object an inconclusive and premature peace which, if arrived at, would be the wickedest crime that this country could be guilty of, and would throw away every single thing for which British lives have been laid down and British money spent. I do hope that this aspect of the matter will engage the attention of Ministers. There is a body called the Union of Democratic Control, or something of the kind, the leaders of which are so democratic that they do not respond to the wishes of the majority of their constituents. If the Government want to suppress something, why do they not suppress that organisation? You would get the ardent support of the very best part of the nation. Unless we can get a clear idea that the Government of the day are going to proceed on inure healthy and more aggressive anti-German lines we shall feel that we are not putting forward all our strength, and our Allies will feel the same. And there will be a demand in this country for a national pro-English and anti-German policy which either this Government or some other Government, if we are going to win the war, will be bound to carry into effect. I do not apologise for having wandered rather far away from the subject with which I began. This is the only House now where you can really get up and say what you like. And, after all, if we do digress somewhat it is only a vindication of the ancient privileges that your Lordships have enjoyed, and, I hope, will continue to enjoy.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I would be the last person in the world to suggest that the Question which my noble friend has put to His Majesty's Government is prompted by idle curiosity. We must all recognise that at a moment like this the resignation of a Minister, and particularly a Minister of Sir Edward Carson's importance, is a grave incident, and it is not surprising that it has attracted a great deal of public attention. My noble friend was good enough to suggest in anticipation one or two different forms of answer that I might possibly give to him. One of the formulæ which he suggested was an answer to the effect that Sir Edward Carson would make his own statement in his own House at the proper time. I am not going to give exactly that answer, but I am going to give one not very far off it. My answer is that Sir Edward Carson has already in his own House, and at the time which he thought convenient, made a statement of the reasons which have induced him to separate himself from his colleagues. That statement, I believe, is to be seen exhibited in a conspicuous place not far from where we are sitting. I really feel that I have not the right to add anything to that statement or to take away anything from it. But this I may be allowed to say. My noble friend said that it had been suggested that Sir Edward Carson's resignation might possibly have something to do with the old Home Rule controversy. Now, we who know Sir Edward Carson will feel perfectly confident that at a time like the present he would not allow himself to be deflected by an inch from what might seem to him his proper political course by any old political prepossessions on questions concerning domestic policy.
LORD WILLOUGHBY DE BROKE: Hear, hear.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: All I can add is an expression of my own very deep regret, both on public and private grounds, that I should no longer have the satisfaction of counting Sir Edward Carson as one of my colleagues. I am sure my noble friend will excuse me if I do not attempt to follow him into the somewhat discursive remarks which he made upon what I think he described as the suppression of important intelligence. It is quite possible that mistakes have been made, and that in some cases news may have been withheld which might without any public disadvantage have been made public. All I will say is that these matters are being considered. My noble friend, as every one else, must realise that to set up the vast machinery which has been established on both sides of the Channel for regulating the publication of news does present immense difficulties, and if in those circumstances mistakes have been made one cannot be surprised. But the matter is being carefully attended to, and there certainly is no desire to keep back from the public any news which can be given without at the same time giving assistance to our enemies.

BUSINESS THE HOUSE.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, as there is nothing on the Paper for to-morrow, I move that the House do adjourn, except for Judicial business, until Tuesday next, October 26.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at half-past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.