§ EARL GREY rose to ask—
§ 1. Whether in a letter addressed to His Majesty's Government by General Booth, 20th November, 1914, a formal request was made "that His Majesty's Secretary of State be asked to consider the official appointment of Salvation Army 1005 chaplains of the forces, at any rate for the period of the war and what reply to this request has been made by His Majesty's Government.
§ 2. Whether the War Office has intimated to the Chaplain-General's Department that Salvation Army officers cannot be appointed as chaplains to the forces.
§ 3. Whether in the absence of any such intimation, the Chaplain -General's Department, acting on its own authority, has refused to recognise the Salvation Army as a religious community whose officers are qualified for appointment as chaplains to the forces.
§ 4. Whether His Majesty's Australian and New Zealand Governments have appointed several Salvationist chaplains to accompany their forces to Egypt, and whether one of them was not the first and the only chaplain in the trenches for several days in Gallipoli.
§ 5. Whether His Majesty's Canadian Government appointed three Salvationist chaplains for service with the Canadian troops during their encampment at Shorncliffe, and whether it is by order of His Majesty's Government, or of His Majesty's Canadian Government, that these chaplains have not been allowed to accompany to the Front the forces to which they were attached.
§ 6. Whether His Majesty's Government will consider the expediency of placing themselves in line with His Majesty's Canadian, Australian, and New Zealand Governments, by recognising the Salvation Army as a religious community whose officers are qualified for appointment as chaplains to the forces.
§ The noble Earl said: My Lords, my action in addressing these Questions to His Majesty's Government has been prompted by my belief that in the past the Salvation Army has not been the recipient of very fair and generous treatment in matters which bear directly upon recruiting, and also in the hope that His Majesty's Government may make use of the opportunity which the necessity of. answering these Questions places in their 1006 hands of giving a clear indication that it is not their policy to single out from all religious denominations the Salvation Army for special disabilities as a religious community whose officers are not qualified for appointment as chaplains to the forces.
§ I will briefly state what the position is. Shortly after the outbreak of the war the recruiting officers refused to attest members of the Salvation Army as Salvationists. This naturally excited indignation amongst the members of the Salvation Army. A protest was made to the War Office, and the War Office promptly met the protest by informing the Salvation Army that in future the recruiting officers would be instructed to register members of the Salvation Army who desired to be recruited as Salvationists. I wish I could say from the information I have received that that assurance had in all cases been carried into effect. Later on the Salvation Army, in a letter addressed to the War -Office in November, 1914, made a formal request to His Majesty's Government that the official appointment of Salvation Army chaplains of the forces, at any rate for the period of the war, should be recognised. I am informed that no direct reply has been sent, but a sort of reply was made by the Under-Secretary of State for War, Mr. Tennant, in the other House last March, when lie said that there did not at present appear to be a sufficiently large number of Salvationist soldiers at any one military centre at home to justify the appointment of a chaplain. You will see how this works for the Salvation Army. First, the recruiting officers refuse to attest, them as Salvationists, and then the War Office informs them that there are not a sufficient number of Salvationists in the Army to justify the appointment of a Salvationist chaplain. I therefore hope that His Majesty's Government will be able to give an assurance to the Salvation Army that it is not the policy of the War Office to refuse to appoint Salvation Army officers as chaplains of the forces.
§ I point out in my Questions that His Majesty's Canadian, Australian, and New Zealand Governments have all appointed Salvationist chaplains, and that a Salvationist chaplain was the first and for some time the only chaplain in the trenches in Gallipoli. The Canadian Government also appointed, I think, three Salvationist 1007 chaplains for service with the Canadian troops during their encampment at Shorncliffe, and they have been very much surprised that these chaplains have not been allowed to accompany the Canadian forces to the Front. There is a wide difference of treatment of the Salvation Army by His Majesty's Government and by His Majesty's Canadian, Australian, and New Zealand Governments, and I venture to ask His Majesty's Government whether they cannot in this matter wheel themselves into line behind the Dominion Governments, who recognise the importance of giving what the Salvation Army naturally regards as its due.
§ "This is not a religious question only. I regard it as an Imperial question. All your Lordships are aware of the great work done by the Salvation Army on the basis of voluntary and disinterested enthusiasm at home—work done most effectively without a single penny of cost to His Majesty's Government; work which, if the Salvation Army did not exist, would have to be performed by the State, less effectively and at great cost to the taxpayer. But that is not the only work that the Salvation Army is performing. I have had an opportunity of realising what extremely valuable Imperial work the Salvation Army is doing in the Dominions, particularly in the matter of the migration of people from one part of the Empire to another. It is the only organisation which exists which has this machinery on both sides. The Salvation Army can do what no Government can do, because constitutional timidities would prevent His Majesty's Government here from interfering in the Dominions for fear of giving affront to the Dominion Governments.
§ And not only that, but I say that the Salvation Army is a most valuable recruiting organisation. I believe that they have recruited over 20,000 members of the Salvation Army, although they have not been encouraged to do so by the action of His Majesty's Government. I read in the newspapers to-day that the whole business of recruiting is to be transferred from the War Office to some new Department of which Lord Derby is to be the head. If Lord Derby were to obtain the co-operation of General Booth he might, perhaps, be able to increase the number of recruits; but in order to do this it is necessary to 1008 convince the Salvation Army that they are not the victims of unfair treatment, that recruiting officers will attest members of the Salvation Army as Salvationists, and that they will be treated as members of other religious communities are treated and not have a bar raised against them. I beg to ask the Questions standing in my name.
§ THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD NEWTON)My Lords, I think I may take upon myself to assure my noble friend that there is not the least desire on the part of the War Office or of any one else to disparage the value of the Salvation Army, and I shall be prepared to assert that there is nobody here or elsewhere who is not prepared to give the fullest recognition to the admirable services that they have rendered to the community. Coming to the noble Earl's Question, there is, I am informed, no record in the War Office of the letter to which he refers, and as there is no record of the reception of the letter there is naturally no record of a reply. The second, third, and sixth headings of my noble friend's Question may, I think, be dealt with together.
The facts are as follows. When the war started the Salvation Army asked whether some of their officers might accompany the Expeditionary Force to the Continent, but they were not prepared to say how many of their adherents there were in the Force, nor in what units or formations they were to be found, nor in what numbers they were in such units or formations. The proposal, therefore, was regarded as of an impracticable nature, and, as the noble Earl will see, it was obvious in the circumstances attending the despatch of the Expeditionary Force that non-combatants should be kept within the smallest possible numbers. In December of last year the question was again raised of appointing some Salvationist officers as Army chaplains. Again no particulars were forthcoming as to the number of Salvationists serving in the Army, and it was admitted that most of those who enlist usually register themselves as belonging to one of the communions that are definitely recognised. It was pointed out that a Salvationist chaplain who went out to serve with the troops would have to roam all over the Army to get into touch with the handfuls of men scattered throughout the different units. The 1009 problem, as the noble Earl may see, is one not so much of principle but really of practicability so far as the Expeditionary Force is concerned.
Now as regards the Army at home. My noble friend has made some rather severe allegations as to the action of the War Office in regard to Salvationists, but as a matter of fact a letter was written to all the commands urging them to give the Salvation Army all possible facilities in their work among the troops, and it is on record at the War Office that the authorities of the Salvation Army expressed their sincere thanks for the steps that had been taken in this direction.
With regard to the second portion of my noble friend's Question, he seems to suggest that the Chaplain-General's Department has been acting in some way independently of the Army Council. The Army Council takes full responsibility for the policy which has been pursued. The real point is that it is impossible to appoint chaplains of any religious body except to centres at which there are a sufficient number of their members serving in the Army to give them work to do to justify their appointments. The highest estimate of the number of Salvationists serving which has been given to the War Office by the Salvation Army officials only amounts to 13,000 men, and the spiritual care of so small a number amongst a force which exceeds 1,000,000 is an almost impossible task.
As regards the fourth heading of my noble friend's Question, it is the case that the Australian and New Zealand Governments each appointed a Salvation Army chaplain with their respective contingents, but there is no information at the War Office as to whether one of these chaplains was the first and only chaplain in the trenches at the commencement of the Gallipoli Expedition.
I now come to the fifth heading of the Question. It is the case that the War Office have received representations as to alleged objections raised to Salvation Army chaplains accompanying the Canadian troops to the Continent. The War Office are in communication with the military authorities in France on this matter. The matter has not yet been settled, but the Army Council are not disposed to see any 1010 objection to duly commissioned Canadian chaplains belonging to the Salvation Army being detailed to fill places allotted to Nonconformist Churches in the authorised establishment of chaplains attached to the Canadian troops.
Perhaps I may be allowed to supplement this answer by a further explanation of my own. It occurred to me the other day when I happened to be out with the troops in France that this difficulty might arise. The Salvation Army, as we all know, is organised on a semi-military basis. The organisation of the Salvation Army is thoroughly understood in this country and in the Colonies, and therefore in the case of troops in this country no difficulties arise. The same thing would presumably occur in Egypt, which is under British administration, and in the Gallipoli Peninsula there is no Administration to consider at all. But in France it stands to reason that you have to consider the action of the French civil and military authorities; and it certainly occurred to me that considerable confusion and perplexity might be caused among French officials if they were called upon to deal with individuals apparently of high military rank who upon investigation turned out not only not to be military officers at all, but possibly officials belonging to the opposite sex. It is not a very serious objection but it is one that occurs to me, and I think my noble friend might consider it, amongst others.
§ EARL GREYI understand, notwithstanding the apprehensions of the noble Lord that the despatch of Salvationist chaplains to France might be misunderstood by our Ally, that the Canadian forces are to be allowed to take out a Salvationist chaplain.
§ LORD NEWTONYes.
§ EARL GREYI hope the Salvationist chaplain who is allowed to attend the Canadian forces will not be the means of creating any misapprehensions in the minds of the French officials. The noble Lord said that this letter, a copy of which I have seen, from General Booth, dated November 20, 1914, cannot be found in the pigeon-holes of the War Department. He also stated that the Salvation Army have been informed that the local authorities have been instructed to afford the greatest 1011 possible facilities to the officers of the Salvation Army in attending to the members of their Army at home, and that in return for this action on the part of the War Office the Salvation Army have expressed their sincere thanks. One of the leading members of the Salvation Army has informed me that they never expressed thanks for that at all. All that the Salvation Army have expressed thanks to the Army Council for is the assurance that the Army Council have given that their recruiting officers will be instructed to attest as Salvationists members of the Salvation Army who desire to enlist. I have only one other comment to make on the noble Lord's reply. He pointed out that in the returns of the War Office the number of members of the Salvation Army at the Front was given at 13,000, spread over a large area, and for a Salvation Army chaplain to have a roving commission to look after men of his own faith over that length of line would, according to the noble Lord, not be very convenient. Might I ask the noble Lord to make inquiry as to what is done with reference to the Jews? I am informed that there are 11,000 Jews serving in the Army, and that there is a Jewish chaplain with a roving commission who is entitled to go from one end of the line to the other to look after men of that faith. What I maintain is that the Salvation Army should be entitled to the same privileges as are given to the Jews.
§ LORD NEWTONI am not sure that I am able to answer the noble Earl categorically with regard to the representation of the Jews. I believe they have a representative, although he did not figure in the list which I gave the noble Earl the other day. With regard to the French officials, I should like to make it clear that the apprehension of which I spoke existed only in my own mind; it was not an official one at all. It was only a suggestion which I put forward on my own account.