Lords Sitting of 18 May 1915

MASSY'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
Petition of Hugh Eyre Barton Massy, praying that substituted service of a copy of the Bill, together with notice of the Second Reading thereof and all other Notices or Orders connected therewith, may be made upon Mr. Richard Simmons, of 10, Leinster Street, Dublin: Considered (according to Order): Counsel called in: A witness examined: Ordered that service of a copy of the Bill and of the Order for the Second Reading thereof upon the said Mr. Richard Simmons be deemed as good service of the said Bill and Order as if the same had been personally served upon Gladys Massy: Bill to be read 2a on Thursday the 17 th June next: The usual Orders made.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:

Barnoldswick Urban District Council Water.

Chelmsford Corporation Gas.

Dewsbury Corporation.

Friends' Provident Institution.

Metropolitan Water Board.

Rhondda Urban District Council (Tramways Extensions, &c.).

Southend Water.

The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Petition for additional Provision in the

London County Council (General Powers) Bill

ought to be dispensed with.
That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Petition for a Bill by the

Port of London Authority

ought to be dispensed with and leave given to introduce the Bill.
Read, and agreed to.

PORT OF LONDON AUTHORITY BILL. [H.L.]
Presented (pursuant to leave given this day), and read 1a.
SEAFORTH AND SEFTON JUNCTION RAILWAY BILL.
Reported, with Amendments.
EASTERN VALLEYS (MONMOUTHSHIRE) JOINT SEWERAGE BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
BRITISH NORTH AMERICA BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow (The Lord Islington). (No. 76.)
SPECIAL CONSTABLES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow (The Lord Stanmore). (No. 75.)

FISHERY HARBOURS BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow (The Lord Lucas). (No. 74.)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL. (No. 78.)
CONWAY FISHERIES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL. (No. 79.)
SEA FISHERIES (CARDIGAN BAY) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL. (No. 80.)
SEA FISHERIES (POOLE) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL. (No. 81.)
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

LURGAN URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
WORKSOP AND BAWTRY RAILWAY BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
NEATH CANAL NAVIGATION BILL. [H.L.]
DEAF AND DUMB POOR ASYLUM BILL. [H.L.]
ILFRACOMBE GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.

GREAT CENTRAL RAILWAY BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendment, agreed to.
MILK AND DAIRIES (CONSOLIDATION) BILL.
Message from the Commons that they have Committed the Milk and Dairies (Consolidation) Bill to the Joint Committee appointed to consider all Consolidation Bills of the present Session.
CONSOLIDATION BILLS.
Leave given to the Joint Committee to report from time to time. The evidence taken before the Joint Committee from time to time to be printed, but no copies to be delivered except to Members of the Committee and to such other persons as the Committee shall think fit until further order. (No. 82.)

THE WAR.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (EARL KITCHENER): My Lords, there has been no marked change or decisive action in the various theatres of war since I last addressed your Lordships on the military situation. In Flanders the drying up of the ground and the improvement in the weather have enabled our troops, which have been strongly reinforced, to take the offensive. The action at Neuve Chapelle was fought with great gallantry and enabled us to occupy a considerable and, from a military point of view, valuable position which had hitherto been held by the Germans.
Towards the end of last month the Germans carried out a violent attack on that portion of the Allied front held by the French to the North-east of the Ypres salient. In order to succeed in this attack the enemy employed vast quantities of poisonous gases in defiance of the recognised rules of war and of their pledged
1018
word. Our soldiers and our French Allies were utterly unprepared for this diabolical method of attack, which had undoubtedly been long and carefully prepared by the enemy. Full accounts have been published in the newspapers of the effect of the gas and the agonising death which it produces. The Germans have persisted in the use of these asphyxiating gases whenever the wind favoured or other opportunity occurred, and His Majesty's Government, no less than the French Government, feel that our troops must be adequately protected by the employment of similar methods so as to remove the enormous and unjustifiable disadvantage which must exist for them if we take no steps to meet on his own ground the enemy who is responsible for the introduction of this pernicious practice.
The forced retirement in front of the heavy clouds of gas which preceded the German advance at Ypres resulted in the left flank of the Canadian Division being exposed. The Canadians suffered severely from the poisonous fumes, but notwithstanding held on to their position in the most determined manner. This was, indeed, an ordeal to try the qualities of the finest army in the world, and all the more credit is due to the soldiers of Canada who, unprepared for such an attack and exposed to a withering fire, reluctantly and with perfect steadiness withdrew their left flank to conform to the new alignment of the Allies' position. The Canadians, however, were soon supported by British Brigades pushed up, and the enemy's advance was thereby checked, and the Germans, whose efforts had cost them dear, were unable to press forward any further in this quarter. As a result of this retirement Sir John French decided to draw back his line from the salient at Ypres which we had occupied through the whole winter. This withdrawal was carried out with masterly success on May 3, and it was satisfactory to note that though an operation of this sort, in immediate contact with the enemy, is a difficulty military achievement and usually fraught with heavy losses, no serious casualties attached to it. The Germans have since attempted furious onslaughts on our positions in front of Ypres, each of which has been repulsed with severe losses to the enemy.
In pursuance of concerted plans between General Joffre and Sir John French, a

1019
vigorous offensive was taken by the French Army South of La Bassée and from Arras in the direction of Douai, while at the same time the British Army co-operated towards the Aubers ridge. We have all followed with admiration the forward movement of our brave Allies in their offensive operations, which have been marked by complete success and which are still proceeding with every promise and indication of further wholly satisfactory results. The attack delivered by our forces was at first not attended with the same immediate success owing to the elaborate arrangements that had been made by the Germans to defend their lines after their experience of our attack at Neuve Chapelle. But on the night of May 15, by a renewed effort, the British Forces drove back the enemy on a front of approximately two miles for a considerable distance and captured more than 500 prisoners. This action is also proceeding, and we hope, in conformity with the French operations, will achieve important results.
Offensive operations against the enemy's trenches demand, as we have known for some time, an enormous expenditure of ammunition, both of our usual type and of the high explosive pattern that we are now making. Your Lordships and the country are aware of the energetic steps that have been taken to produce a sufficient amount of ammunition to supply the Army in the field. There has been undoubtedly considerable delay in producing the material which we at an early stage in the war foresaw would be required. This delay is due mainly to the unprecedented and almost unlimited calls that have been made on the resources of the manufacturers of this country. Strenuous efforts have been taken by all concerned to reduce as far as possible this delay in production, and I am glad to say that already a very considerable improvement in the output has been the result of the energy and good work of all concerned.
High explosive shells for field guns have recently been brought into prominence by comments in the Press. At an early stage in the war we took the preliminary steps to manufacture these new projectiles, and though the introduction of any new departure in munitions of war naturally causes delay and difficulty to manufacturers, I am confident that in the very near future we shall be in a satisfactory position with
1020
regard to the supply of these shells to the Army at the Front. In these recent offensive operations our losses and those of the French have been heavy, but the task that our Armies have accomplished necessitated great sacrifices, and the spirit and morale of our troops have never been higher than at the present moment.
In the Eastern theatre a concentration of German and Austrian forces, which took place during March and April to the south of Cracow, developed into active operations against the position held by the Russian 3rd Army on the line from Tarnow through Gorlice to the Rostoki Pass. These offensive operations by the German and Austrian forces were necessitated by the Russian success, after the fall of Przemysl, in the Uszok Pass and in the Carpathians, which threatened to give entire access on to the Plains of Hungary to a Russian invading force. The Austro-German offensive began on the night of April 26 by an attack in the Gorlice region, and a desperate battle raged for several days along the Russian front. The enemy's Artillery fire, especially that of their heavy guns, was overwhelming, and the Russians, despite the greatest gallantry, were compelled to fall back. Further German forces were poured in to press the Russians, who, fighting with their well-known tenacity, retired steadily towards the positions on the River San which had been previously prepared. This retirement in West Galicia led to a Russian withdrawal from part of the Carpathians, and the Russians now hold a strong line from the Eastern Carpathians to Przemysl, which place forms the pivot of their line, and thence along the San to the Vistula.
In Bukovina the Russians have made a counter offensive, and have driven the Austrians back from the River Dniester to the River Pruth. The German losses in killed and wounded in these operations have been undoubtedly enormous, and many thousands of unwounded prisoners have fallen into the hands of the Russians.
In connection with the attack on the Dardanelles forts a body of troops, comprising British, Australian and New Zealand soldiers, with a Naval Division, and in co-operation with a French force, landed on the Gallipoli Peninsula. With the assistance and co-operation of the Navy they have been able to consolidate

1021
their positions and to advance further on the lines they immediately captured. The landing itself, effected in the teeth of great natural difficulties, skilfully prepared obstacles, and armed opposition, was a masterpiece of organisation, ingenuity, and courage which will long be remembered. The progress of our troops is necessarily slow since the country is most difficult. But the Turks are gradually being forced to retire from positions of great strength, and though the enemy is being constantly reinforced the news from this front is thoroughly satisfactory.
The recent operations under the command of General Botha in South-West Africa have been brought to a most successful stage by the occupation of Windhoek. The military ability displayed by General Botha has been of a very high order, and has confirmed the admiration felt for him as a commander and leader of men. His task was carried out under conditions of considerable difficulty, especially as regards transport, water, and supplies. All these have been successfully overcome, and the campaign has now, happily, entered its final phase.
In Mesopotamia our Indian soldiers have shown their value and bravery by attacking and utterly routing the Turkish forces sent against them. Sir John Nixon is following up the results of his victory, and the whole country is gradually being cleared of all hostile forces.
In my first speech in your Lordships' House I pointed out that this war would be a long one and would demand great sacrifices. Those sacrifices have been cheerfully made by the people of this country, who not only immediately responded in vast numbers to the summons to create the new Armies required, but have since continuously supplied the constant stream of recruits which has enabled us to maintain the forces in the field and in training at their full strength and with effective men. Your Lordships have watched the growth of the new Armies, and have noted, doubtless, the difficulties which have confronted us in providing them with all the material of war they require. I cannot speak too highly of the men and of the devotion to duty they have displayed during the long months of training, or of their cheerful acceptance of hardships incidental to an inclement
1022
winter, which have provoked the admiration of the expert officers who have reported to me as to the wonderfully rapid progress made in their training to become efficient soldiers. I am certain that in the activities in the field which immediately await them these men will worthily sustain the reputation they have already attained at home.
I have said that I would let the country know when more men should be wanted for the war. The time has come, and I now call for 300,000 recruits to form new Armies. Those who are engaged in the production of war material of any kind should not leave their work. It is to men who are not performing this duty I appeal, and I am convinced that the manhood of England still available will loyally respond by coming forward to take their share in this great struggle for a great cause.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, most of us were not prepared for the extremely interesting statement which the Secretary of State for War has just made to the House, and neither he nor your Lordships will, I think, expect that I should follow him by any attempt to review the operations which have been lately in progress in the different theatres of war. I will make one or two observations only on what he has said to us. We noticed, in the first place, with satisfaction and not without relief that the account which he was able to give us of the progress of those operations was upon the whole satisfactory and characterised by a feeling of confidence. But the noble and gallant Field-Marshal said enough to show us what kind of a struggle it has been in which our troops have been engaged. He used language which was certainly not that of exaggeration when he told us that they had passed through an ordeal sufficient to try the finest Army in the world. We rejoice to think that they have emerged from that ordeal with credit. And may I say I noticed in particular with pleasure the high compliment which the noble and gallant Field-Marshal paid to the conduct of the Canadian troops at a very critical moment in these operations.
I do not think your Lordships can have been unprepared for the announcement which the Secretary of State made to us as to the intention of the Department over which he presides to take efficient steps to

1023
meet the use of poisonous gases by the enemy. We have all read the ghastly accounts of the results produced by the use of these gases upon our troops, and much as in our hearts we must abhor resort to such expedients I think we shall most of us be agreed that it would be impossible for us to allow our Army to be destroyed by such agencies as these without ourselves resorting to suitable reprisals.
The Secretary of State touched briefly upon the question of ammunition, and he admitted with great frankness that there had been considerable delay in the supply of the most essential munitions of war. I am afraid, my Lords, that those of us who have followed the course of events at the Front, who have read the documents which are open to the inspection of us all, and who have paid some attention to the other sources of information which are available, can have come to no other conclusion but this—that on many occasions and at more than one point the success of our troops has been gravely impeded by a failure to supply them with an adequate quantity of these munitions. I will not attempt to say where the blame lies. There has been failure on the part of the trade; there may have been miscalculation on the part of the military authorities; but we do rejoice to learn from the Secretary of State that he looks forward to a considerable increase in the output, and that in the near future he believes there will be a satisfactory supply of these most essential munitions of war.
I am sure that I voice the feelings of every member of this House when I say that we listened with great satisfaction to the Secretary of State's announcement that the position upon the Gallipoli Peninsula was now thoroughly satisfactory. Many of us have watched those particular operations with grave anxiety, and to us it must be a great relief to know that the noble and gallant Field-Marshal is able to speak of them as he has this evening. Will he also permit me to associate myself with him in the tribute which he paid to the military skill and patriotism of General Botha, who will emerge from these hostilities with an added reputation.
Then the Secretary of State came to what was infinitely the most important part of his statement—that in which he told the House that the time had come
1024
when he should be obliged td ask the country to give him 300,000 more soldiers. I believe the country will give him all the soldiers that he wants, certainly all the soldiers that it can give. But may I be permitted to make this remark, that this question of adding to the strength of the Army appears to me to be not merely a question of additional numbers. At this moment there is every reason to believe that a great number of men do not join the Army who might join it. There are other men who do join the Army and who probably would be even better employed if they were to remain engaged in their civil avocations—I speak particularly of those men who are engaged in the manufacture of military stores and of munitions of war. It has therefore for some time past seemed to many of us that the time had come when the whole of this question required to be reconsidered, and it was for that reason that we noted with much interest an observation that fell from the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack the other evening when, if my memory does not fail me, he told us that His Majesty's Government were ready to reconsider the whole of this question of recruiting. What we want is some better organisation of our resources, some organisation which will enable us to use every man fit to serve the country in such a manner as to turn his qualifications, whatever those qualifications may be, to the best use possible in the interests of the country, and if that desirable result is to be brought about something more than mere exhortations and appeals will, it seems to me, be inevitable.
I will add only this one further observation. I venture to express my humble concurrence in what the Secretary of State told us with regard to the new Armies. He bore testimony to the fine temper which they had shown, to their devotion to duty, to the manner in which they had stood the fatigue and the hardships of the winter. It is my fortune to live in a part of the country where a great number of these new troops are in training, and I have had some slight opportunities of judging of their fine physique. I feel sure that the Secretary of State is right when he tells us that these men who have made such excellent progress in their military training will adequately represent this country whenever the noble and gallant Earl calls upon them to take their place in the field.

EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL. [H.L.]
EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (CORNWALL, &c.) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a (according to Order).

DEFENCE OF THE REALM (AMENDMENT) (No. 3) BILL.
ARMY ACT AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

STATUTORY COMPANIES (REDEEMABLE STOCK) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Bill read 3a, and passed.

ALIENS AND NATURALISATION.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH rose to ask His Majesty's Government—

1. Whether they propose to create any machinery, and, if so, what machinery, by which naturalised British subjects of enemy origin may be brought before the tribunal which His Majesty's Government propose to create.

2. Whether it is not true that under the German Imperial and State Nationality Law, 22nd July, 1913, a naturalised British subject may also be a German subject, and may resume his original nationality without returning to Germany.

3. Whether His Majesty's Government propose to intern those naturalised British subjects who have not divested themselves of their German nationality, or to bring them before the proposed tribunal.

4. Whether His Majesty's Government consider the fact that a naturalised British subject has a son in the German Army not a sufficient reason for internment or for investigation by the tribunal.

The noble Earl said: My Lords, in putting the Questions that stand in my name to His Majesty's Government, I may say that I have been induced to do so before we adjourn for the Whitsuntide Recess because in statements and declarations that have been made in the House of Commons the Government have informed us that it is their intention, in order to
1026
deal with this question of aliens, to set up administratively—that is to say, without Parliamentary control or Parliamentary criticism, and without any possibility of Parliamentary amendment—a tribunal of their own nomination to which would be left the question of dealing with the 8,000 naturalised aliens in this country. The country is very suspicious in regard to this matter. It is suspicious of the conduct of the Government because, as I shall attempt to show to your Lordships by the recital of a few facts, the record of the Government in dealing with this question of aliens has been an eminently unsatisfactory record; in fact, it has been a very bad record.
I do not want to occupy your Lordships' time by any loose or general criticism in regard to this matter. I wish, therefore, briefly to recapitulate in historical order the various acts of the Government in regard to this alien question. War was declared on August 4, but by a Proclamation that was then issued alien enemies were allowed to embark at approved ports up to August 11. It is a terrible thing to consider how many additional men must have been added gratuitously to the German combatant forces by this action of the Government. Then came what is called the Alders case. A man called Alders, who was a Consul at Sunderland, was convicted of high treason by the Quarter Sessions of the County of Durham. He appealed, and the conviction on appeal was quashed, because his counsel was able to show that Alders had only been doing what had been permitted under the Proclamation of the Government, which Proclamation enabled alien enemies to leave this country up to August 11. There was no question of Ahlers's treason or of his treasonable frame of mind, because he stated in open Court that although he had been for some time naturalised as an Englishman he still retained his pro-German sympathies and his desire to assist the German nation. The next fact that we have to confront is this, that by a Proclamation enemy aliens who chose to remain in this country, whether as individuals or members of a company, were given all the rights of a British subject, and were given those rights upon the mere formality of registration. Compare that with the practical attitude of the Germans, by whom English companies were sequestrated and English individuals interned. Then, again, enemy aliens were allowed to remain at large, even in prohibited areas;

1027
and I know as a fact, from information which has been supplied to me, that there have been in Portsmouth Dockyards certain mysterious fires, all reference to which has been suppressed on the part of the Censor.
The last fact to which I would call your Lordships' attention as evidence that in regard to this matter the country is justified by experience in regarding the attitude of the Government with very deep suspicion, is this. The Attorney-General was asked by Mr. R. McNeill on Thursday last in the House of Commons whether any of the claims before the Prize Claims Committee came from enemy firms. The Attorney-General replied, in a somewhat evasive answer, that the only claims that can be considered are claims made by British firms or by neutral countries. That to a superficial hearer may seem satisfactory. But I want your Lordships to note this, that this answer has allowed some £40,000 to be paid to Messrs. Schröder & Company, of which the principal partner is Baron von Schröder, an alien naturalised by the Government after the war who has a son fighting in the German Army. Then, my Lords, there is another point on which I should like to obtain some information from the Government. The Prime Minister stated in another place that there are 40,000 uninterned non-naturalised alien enemies, of whom 16,000 are women and 24,000 men. He further went on to say—
"All adult males of this class, if over military age, are to be repatriated,"
That, coming from the Prime Minister, requires, I think, some elucidation. How are these people to be repatriated, and where are they to be repatriated to? It is hardly likely that the German Government will want to feed a lot of men over military age. Was the Prime Minister's statement a statement made with any care or consideration at all, or was it simply and solely a mere device to quiet popular indignation, without any coherent or practical plan for carrying the device into effect?
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I am extremely unwilling to interrupt the noble Earl, but I think he must be aware that the matters of great import on which he is now speaking do not in any sense arise out of the terms of the Questions which he has put on the Paper. If he will study the precise terms of his Questions he will see that these matters, although of great moment, are in no sense included in those Questions.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: I gather from the interruption of the noble Marquess that the Government are not prepared to explain the meaning of the Prime Minister's words?
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I will say exactly what I mean. The noble Earl's Questions on the Paper are entirely concerned with the particular matter of what is to be done with naturalised Germans. The whole of his speech, so far, has been devoted to entirely different questions. Had he been good enough to put a Motion on the Paper raising the whole question, we should have been, of course, prepared with all the facts at our command and should have endeavoured to meet the noble Earl's arguments. But he must not be surprised if my noble friend who represents the Department, not having been informed as to the kind of speech which the noble Earl desired to make, is not provided with all the data which may he necessary to reply to the noble Earl.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: I maintain, with all respect, that the former part of my speech was to the point, because if I had, or if the public had, any confidence in the Government by experience of their dealing with this question of aliens, we should not be so greatly concerned as to the nature of the tribunal to be set up. I do not mind putting the Question clown for a future day, but I should not have thought that it was one which it would have been difficult to answer. The Prime Minister has made a statement that he is going to do a certain thing, and all I have asked is, How is he going to do it? However, let that pass.
Let me come to the particular point mentioned in Question No. 2. As regards that Question, I should like to call the attention of the House to the law which was signed by the German Emperor on July 22, 1913, and I call attention to this point because it gives a very illuminating example of the process by which the German Government have, by design, attempted to deceive the nations of the world in regard to this question of naturalisation. I have read the document in the original German, but I do not think I need quote it to the House. I will give it from a translation, which is quite accurate. In order to provide for cases where a foreign

1029
nationality is solely acquired with a view to meeting business requirements—no doubt extremely largely used by Germans in this country—it is laid down that a German shall not lose his nationality if, before acquiring a foreign nationality, he obtains the permission of the home authorities to retain his German nationality—that is to say, although he may be naturalised here he retains his German nationality. It is further provided in the same law that Germans who have lost their German nationality—this is pretty wide!—through any cause whatever, may recover it without returning to Germany, even if they have meanwhile acquired a foreign nationality. I should like to ask the noble Lord who will answer on behalf of His Majesty's Government to be good enough to reply seriatim to the Questions standing in my name.
THE EARL OF CROMER: My Lords, before the noble Earl's Questions are answered, I should like to refer to one point connected with the first Question—that is to say, the machinery that is about to be created to deal with naturalised British subjects and others. I wish particularly to draw attention to the manner in which this may affect a certain class in whom I am interested—namely, Ottoman subjects who are at present in this country. Although we do not know the full details of what is to be done, at the same time from statements already made I understand that the general principle on which the Government are going to proceed is that all non-naturalised aliens should be prima facie considered as enemies, and should, therefore, be interned unless they can show cause to the contrary, and that all naturalised British subjects should be prima facie considered as not hostile, and should not be interned unless good cause can be shown for interning them. We further know that tribunals are to be set up to deal with appeals from these various aliens. I do not know of whom the tribunals will consist, but I must say that if English Judges and magistrates have to deal with the status and character and general probity of Armenians, Syrians, Kurds, and so on, they will find themselves in a difficult position. To deal with matters of that kind Eastern knowledge is required, and what I suggest is this. There are at present in this country a good many members of the Levant Consular Service who speak Turkish and many of them
1030
Arabic. I do not say that they should be given any judicial functions, but I cannot help thinking that it might assist the Judges in their decisions if some of these gentlemen were added to the Courts as assessors to assist in coming to a decision on the points brought forward.
Without wishing to attach any exaggerated importance to this matter, I do think that it is one deserving of serious consideration, because I am strongly convinced that when eventually we come to decide the terms of peace the whole question of the relations between the British Government and nation and the Moslem inhabitants of the world will require a display of statesmanship of the highest quality and also a very great knowledge of Eastern affairs. I will not, of course, go fully into this matter now. The whole question bristles with difficulties of every description. There are Moslems and Moslems. A Moslem of Egypt is not the same as a Moslem of India, and the latter is not the same as a Moslem of Persia, and so on. In view of the difficulties likely to occur I cannot help thinking that it would be advisable to do all in our power to avoid widening in any respect the breach which is to a certain extent almost inevitable by reason of our having made a very just and necessary war against the Caliph of Islam.
Since this matter was brought up a few days ago, I have been in communication with Sir Herbert Belfield at the War Office, who, I believe, deals with this subject, and he promised to inquire into it. I do not know whether anything has been done, but I understood from what Sir Herbert Belfield wrote to me that he thought the chief constables and the London Police might object to having these Turkish aliens thrown on their hands. I really do not think that in dealing with a matter of this kind a chief constable or even a London superintendent of Police is the best judge. More knowledge of Eastern affairs is required than is possessed by these gentlemen. The matter is too serious to be left in the hands of Departmental officers, and ought to receive the attention of the Cabinet as a whole. I hope, therefore, that the noble Marquess the Leader of the House will be able to tell us that the subject will receive further consideration.
LORD ST. DAVIDS: My Lords, before the noble Lord answers for the Government I should like to say a few words. The importance of dealing with this alien question has been pressed on the Government many times in this House, and it is remarkable that after nine months the Government should have adopted precisely to the letter the proposition which some of us put forward at the beginning of the war. I am sorry that the noble Earl, Lord Crawford, is not in his place to speak on this matter. He dealt with it so well on former occasions, and his reason for not being here to-day, as we all know, is highly honourable to himself. The fact that the Government have adopted this line to-day in regard to enemy aliens shows that there is a Very different tone in the country now from what there was nine months ago. At that time I proposed this very course in this House, but I was told that I ought not to have done so because it would be inconvenient to many estimable persons. We have passed the days when the country thinks of the convenience or inconvenience of a German, or almost anybody else. I have not spoken on this subject for some months past. The reason I have not done so is that it was made clear that the whole matter as regards enemy aliens was in the hands of the War Office. The thing that troubled some of us was that there seemed to be confusion, that there seemed to be several different Departments dealing with the matter; and I myself was absolutely satisfied when I knew that the matter was in the hands of the War Office and the Admiralty.
I would like to ask, Are the War Office and the Admiralty satisfied with the present position? They know now that they are to be quit of enemy aliens. What have they been told about naturalised Germans? The Government are going to treat the naturalised German as a Britisher until he has given reason for contrary treatment—in other words, they are going to treat him just like all the rest of us. Are the War Office and the Admiralty satisfied with that, or have those Departments been told that nothing else can be done and that they must be satisfied? To put it another way. Suppose that two persons go to the Secretary of State for War. One of them says, "Here is the policy; we are going to shut up the foreigner, but we are not going to shut up the naturalised man but are going to treat him like an Englishman." The other one
1032
says, "We are going to shut up the foreigner; and, if you like, we will treat the naturalised man the same way too." Would the War Office and the Admiralty, if the case were put to them in that way, prefer the latter proposition? I venture to think that if they do the country will give them their way, in spite of the Government saying that that is a course which they will never take. "Never" is a long day. We have had nine months of war. Do you think "never" is going to last for nine more months I do not.
One exception, I think, ought to be made in this matter. I have made it myself on former occasions. It is this, that when people are agitating in this country against the naturalised German they ought absolutely and entirely to accept as an Englishman a naturalised German who has sent his own son to fight in the ranks alongside our sons. That is the kind of foreigner that I am prepared to accept as a man and a brother, and I think it ought to be recognised by everybody that a man who risks his son in His Majesty's Forces is a British citizen at heart. I do not say that there are not some others who ought in the same way to be excepted from the ranks of those who should be under suspicion. We have seen in the last few days in the newspapers protests by certain naturalised Germans who have told us that all their interests are in this country, that their sons are fighting with us, and that they are heart and soul in our cause. As regards the gentlemen who signed those protests, I have not the slightest doubt that most probably all of them are entirely sincere. But there are some highly-placed naturalised Germans in this country who have lived through all these months of war, who have seen every German horror in turn, but who have not said a word. They will not say a word. Why should they? They have property in Germany. You will find against the names of some of them German honours and decorations. Have those been returned Have they been flung back? We have heard nothing of it, and I do not believe that such has been the case. It is these men at the top at whom you want to get—these men who all the time, through all these months, are trying to get the best of two worlds. Some hold English honours, too. One of them has shown the virtue at least of resignation. May we suggest that others should take the same course?

1033
I speak thus because I feel that many people are thinking like this, and it is time that things were said. Times have changed and are changing. There are many people in the country who before the war were friendly with Germans, mixed with Germans, and were intimate with them in every way. They cannot be again. Does anybody think that after this war things are going to be as they were before, that in social life, in business, in every day interests, British subjects and Germans are going to live together in amity in this country? I believe not. The Government have announced publicly that they will never differentiate between naturalised Germans and ourselves. We see to-day what a change nine months of war has brought upon the Government. Were I in the Government I would not say "never." I would not wait until I was made to act. I should look at what had happened, consider what was going to happen, and take another course before I was obliged to do so by the force of public opinion.
VISCOUNT ALLENDALE: My Lords, as the noble Marquess behind me has already pointed out, the noble Earl who initiated this debate travelled a long way outside the terms of his Questions. Although His Majesty's Government do not shrink from further discussion on this subject, I hope the noble Earl will excuse me if I am unable this afternoon to follow him into the whole of the first part of his speech, which, as I say, went a good deal outside the Questions of which he had given notice. Nor can I follow him into the cases of Ahlers, Baron Schroder, and so on. With regard to the Questions on the Paper, it may be convenient if I reply to the first, third, and fourth together—
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: I hope the noble Viscount will not do that. I should like him to answer the Questions categorically.
VISCOUNT ALLENDALE: Those three Questions hang together, I think. If there is anything further to be said the noble Marquess who leads the House, who is going to make some remarks later in this discussion, may be able to deal with the matter more fully. The first, third, and fourth Questions relate to the treatment of naturalised British subjects of enemy origin. Your Lordships will recollect that on Thursday last the Prime Minister explained the policy which the Government
1034
had decided to adopt in regard to enemy aliens. He went on to say—
"In the case of the naturalised aliens, who are in law British subjects (numbering about 8,000), we think the prima facie presumption should be the other way; but exceptional eases, established to the satisfaction of the advisory body, will be specially dealt with. There must be a power of interning in cases of proved necessity or danger."
There is nothing that I can add to the Prime Minister's statement. As to the tribunal, I understand that its composition has not been quite decided upon, but it is to be a judicial tribunal. With regard to the remarks of the noble Earl on the Cross Benches (Lord Cromer), whose great experience of Orientals and the East generally must have great weight with this House or wherever he speaks, I can only say that I am sure the suggestions which he has made will be considered by the Government before the composition of the tribunal is settled.
In his second Question Lord Portsmouth refers to the German Imperial and State Nationality Law of July 22, 1913. His Majesty's Government cannot express an authoritative opinion on the German law which is expounded in the Paper from which the noble Earl has quoted; but it appears that the German Nationality Law of 1913 provides, as the noble Earl stated, that with regard to the bearing upon German nationality of naturalisation in a foreign country a German who is not domiciled or resident in Germany loses his nationality on obtaining naturalisation in a foreign country unless before he obtains such naturalisation he has received from the proper German authorities permission to retain his original nationality. This permission, I understand, may be refused or granted. In the latter event a German naturalised in the United Kingdom would remain a German subject. I may perhaps say, in parenthesis, that I believe similar laws obtain elsewhere, as in Russia for instance. It appears also to be possible in certain circumstances—that is, where a person has applied for release from German nationality without realising its effect, or has lost it through the action of his parents or guardians—for a German to resume his original nationality without actually taking up his residence in Germany. As my right hon. friend the Home Secretary said the other day in the House of Commons, it is difficult for us to interpret the German Law, because the German Government, I am afraid, are inclined both to alter and to interpret the Naturalisation Law as it suits their own purpose.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, it really is not possible to congratulate the Government on the way in which they have dealt with this question of aliens. As Lord St. Davids reminded your Lordships, during the autumn of last year and the first weeks of this year we discussed this question at length in this House, and we desisted, not because our anxiety had been relieved, but because when once we knew that one Department of State had been made solely responsible—as we understood, the War Office—we felt that the clash of authorities against which we had protested had disappeared, and for the moment we thought we had better leave the subject alone. But it is mortifying to all of us that now, after nine months of war, the Government should only be beginning to do the very thing which they were urged to do at the commencement of the war. I confess frankly that I have never understood, and I do not understand now, why the Government dealt with this question with so much hesitation and apparent trepidation.
My noble friend behind me has asked certain Questions to-day, and I cannot congratulate him on the reply which he has received. Questions No. 1, 3, and 4 have not been answered at all. I presume that means that the Government have not vet finally decided what they are going to do on any of these three subjects. They have not yet formed their tribunal; they do not know exactly how they mean to deal with naturalised British subjects who have not divested themselves of their German nationality; and probably they have not considered what their duty would be in the case of the matter referred to in Question No. 4. Considering that the Government have obviously adopted this policy of internment rather suddenly, I am not surprised that they have not had time fully to develop its details; but in the absence of any opportunity of criticising those details I should like to say a word about the position of naturalised Germans in this country. I think we must be extremely careful to differentiate between them. It has been said that when once a country grants naturalisation it must not look behind that naturalisation except on proof positive of disloyalty; that it is not generous or justifiable to grant naturalisation in time of peace and then, when war conies, to treat with suspicion the man whom you have received as a British subject. I think that is, on a priori
1036
grounds, a perfectly sound doctrine. But then you have the German Nationality Law of 1913. That law does seem to me to make a very material difference to the whole question, because, as I understand it, a German law has been passed ostentatiously for the purpose of allowing Germans, for business purposes, to become naturalised in the countries in which they conduct their businesses, and yet to retain all the advantages of German citizenship. That being the case, I think the Government would be justified in looking behind the circumstances of each naturalisation; and that is what I hope the Government are going to do.
Lord St. Davids mentioned the case of naturalised Germans who have sons fighting in the British Navy or Army. I agree with everything he said about them. We accept them as brothers in the fullest sense of the word. But there are others who have not got sons fighting in our Navy or Army, perhaps because they have not sons old enough to fight. Many of us knew the late Mr. Alfred Beit, and many of us know his brother Mr. Otto Beit. Mr. Alfred Beit was, and his brother is, just as good and true an Englishman as any one in your Lordships' House. There are many others like them. But there is no doubt whatever that there are men in this country who have accepted British naturalisation solely for business purposes, who have never ceased to be Germans at heart, and who intend, when business purposes can no longer he served, to resume their German nationality. His Majesty's Government should probe those cases as closely as they can, because it is not just that the poor German waiter should be dealt with under one system and the rich German under another.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA(THE MARQUESS OF CREWE): My Lords, I was very sorry to rise and interrupt the noble Earl opposite in the middle of his speech, but I really did so, if the noble Earl will believe me, in the interests of the order of your Lordships' House rather than with any particular reference to the subject which he was discussing. Our rules of order here are lax, but from time to time—and I feel sure that I shall have the sympathy of the noble Earl below the Gangway opposite (Lord Camperdown) in saying this—it is desirable to call attention to the fact that where a noble Lord does

1037
not put any Motion on the Paper or where he does not include certain subjects in a Question which he asks, it is inconvenient, and it is also hard upon those members of the Government who have to give official replies, if the speaker wanders away into a general conversation on the subject.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: Having regard to that statement, perhaps the noble Marquess will be good enough to answer the Questions on the Paper which were not answered by the noble Viscount.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: So far as I can supplement anything that was said by my noble friend, of course I shall be happy to do so. First of all I may, perhaps, deal with the specific question which was asked by my noble friend Lord St. Davids. He asked how it was that this measure of general internment of aliens had not taken place before, and he asked specific questions as to whether the War Office and the Admiralty were satisfied with the distinction that was to be drawn between naturalised and non-naturalised aliens, or whether they had merely accepted it as a proposition advanced by the Government. On behalf of my friends who represent both the Admiralty and the War Office I should like to say this, that they have throughout been satisfied that, so far as they have been able to compass it, every alien against whom any kind of suspicion exists, whether he be naturalised or not, and also certain persons who are not enemy aliens, have been arrested and either imprisoned or interned.
LORD ST. DAVIDS: Am I to understand that at the present moment the War Office and the Admiralty have the power, and know that they have the power, to seize any naturalised German and shut him up without reference to any other authority?
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My noble friend knows, or can easily ascertain, what the precise powers under the Defence of the Realm Act are. They do not, of course, in any case allow the permanent imprisonment of anybody without some form of inquiry. People who are taken up have to be tried in those cases by Court-Martial. In other cases they are brought before the ordinary tribunals. But it is not possible for anybody, either the Admiralty or the War Office, to issue a lettre de cachet against an individual and throw him into gaol.
LORD ST. DAVIDS: Then I am right in thinking that the War Office and the Admiralty have not had the offer made to them, "Would you like to have the same powers over naturalised aliens that you have over enemy aliens?" That is the power want them to have.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: The position of a naturalised alien is, of course, in most respects that of a British subject; otherwise there would be no meaning in naturalisation. But I can say quite plainly, in reply to my noble friend, that the Departments have not addressed any request or made any suggestion that naturalised aliens as a class should be treated as though they were enemy aliens. Then the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, and also, I think, my noble friend below the Gangway, assumed that in taking the recent decision which they have in the institution of this tribunal the Government are now, after a long interval, adopting the steps which they were asked to take some months ago on the ground of the prevalence of espionage. It is important to contradict categorically that statement. The Admiralty and the War Office, of course, are liable to have made mistakes like other people, and it is impossible to say that all guilty persons have been seized, but both of those Departments are satisfied that, so far as they are able to discover it, all persons, whether they be aliens, or naturalised, or possibly in some cases, as they might be, British subjects, or the subjects of neutral Powers, have been dealt with, and where there has been no actual case for trying them to conviction they have been interned. Therefore this step that has been taken bears no reference whatever to what may be called the general alien question, which, as we all know, was founded upon the fears that were held either of espionage or of the conveyance of information to the enemy.
There have been various pleas advanced at different times for taking general action of this sort. One argument that was used was, there being a large number of uninterned alien enemies, that in the event of an attack being made on London by aircraft it would be possible that those alien enemies would, in pursuance of some secret organisation, combine for the purpose of incendiarism or some other form of attack. That is not an argument to which the military or the police authorities have,

1039
as I believe, attached great importance. But it cannot be disputed that this question of internment assumed a different aspect after the rapid increase to boiling point of indignation which has been felt against our enemies, in particular, of course, against the Germans, owing to the adoption of the methods which we know so well, both by sea and by land. As my noble friend stated, the temper of the country did, no doubt, change greatly after those occurrences. Everybody, I am sure, even those who desire to take the harshest judicial measures against enemy aliens of all kinds, have reprehended those cowardly attacks on individuals, many of them probably perfectly harmless individuals, involving destruction of property, violence, and looting. It is hard to speak too strongly of such conduct as that. It is, of course, an evidence of a temper among the people which has to be considered and weighed. It is altogether undesirable that those who are responsible for order should have to give daily attention to safeguarding these people from such attacks, and from every point of view, therefore, it is better that they should be put out of the way so far as can be humanely done. The proposal which has been made is for the institution of tribunals of a purely judicial character. I mention that because I think the noble Earl opposite spoke of them as being appointed by the Government and implied that they would be mere Government nominees. These tribunals are to be of a judicial character—
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: Are they to consist of Judges entirely?
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My impression is that each tribunal will be presided over by a Judge of the High Court, but I am not entirely certain of the details; and I have no doubt that the Judge will have assistance, some possibly of the character which my noble friend on the Cross Benches (Lord Cromer) suggested. His suggestion seemed to me to be a very fruitful one.
I come now to the particular Questions of the noble Earl opposite on this matter of naturalisation. As regards the first Question, I think it is quite clear that machinery will have to be created by which any particular naturalised British subject may have to be brought before the tribunal. But, on the other hand, I must associate myself with the observation made
1040
by my right hon. friend the Prime Minister in another place, which was to the effect that where a foreigner had been regularly naturalised the burden of proof must rest rather upon those who desire to take hostile measures against him than upon those who would treat him as a loyal subject of the King. The original presumption ought to be, and I feel certain that in the vast majority of cases it would be properly so regarded, in favour of the man who has become naturalised. That there may be exceptions of various kinds I do not for a moment deny, and exceptions of that kind ought to be carefully examined. I agree with the noble Earl that machinery ought to be framed by which inquiry can be made in any particular case into the circumstances or the past of a naturalised foreigner. But I do not think it would be reasonable that every naturalised foreigner should be obliged automatically to come before the tribunal and prove that he is not a spy, or something approaching it. I do not believe that in practice any such system could be found to work. It surely would by no means be difficult to create machinery which reasonable people would regard as adequate.
Then we come to the question of double nationality, which is one which I quite admit may easily give some searchings of heart to those who look into the matter. I do not remember—perhaps some members of the House may—whether when the German Nationality Law was passed in 1913 it attracted any public notice in this country and whether it was mentioned in either House of Parliament. I gathered from the noble Earl that that was not the case, and my impression is the same. At any rate, I have no recollection of our having done so. The purposes for which that law was passed may have been, or may not have been, sinister. I do not profess to know. But it is important to call attention to this fact, that the existence of various forms of double nationality is far more common on the Continent of Europe than we living in these islands are able to realise. There are a number of persons that we know of who have properties both in Belgium and in Germany, in Germany and in Austria, and also, I fancy, in Austria and in Russia. Changes of boundaries have often brought about the result that the property of one family has fallen under the sway of a different

1041
Sovereign. There are other cases in which a man is a member of Parliament of more than one country; there are several such cases that might occur to some of your Lordships. Therefore the notion of a man being a citizen of two countries, though it seems to us so strange and anomalous, is probably not regarded abroad in quite the same way as it would be here. I think my noble friend behind me (Lord Allendale) stated that this system of double nationality obtains in Russia as well as in Germany. I repeat once more that the fact of a German citizen, or any alien citizen, having when by way of being naturalised here retained what we cannot recognise as being in any way effective, I imagine—allegiance to another country—is one which demands careful examination; and it is, I think, a subject which properly might come within the purview of the tribunal to examine. For instance, it would appear to me to create a prima facie case for examination of the status of a naturalised foreigner if proof were adduced that he had retained citizenship in another country. I do not think it necessarily follows in all cases that he is a disloyal person if he has, but the circumstances might well be examined, and I cannot understand that there need be any particular difficulty in doing so. That, I think, answers the noble Earl's third Question.
As regards the fourth Question, that is a matter of particular policy which, I think, should be left to the discretion of the tribunal to decide. What particular facts may arise as regards the doings and the relations of particular naturalised persons must, I think, be a matter for the tribunal in each case, and I do not think it is possible here to go beyond that in reply to the noble Earl. It is reasonable to recollect that it is possible to attach excessive importance to the doings of these particular naturalised Germans, or Germans who are not naturalised, as compared with those of other persons in the country. There are, no doubt, a certain number of neutrals with enemy sympathies and of enemy connections whose doings might become a more appropriate subject for inquiry and watchfulness on the part of the police or the military authorities than those, not only of naturalised Germans, but even of Germans who are not naturalised. It is, I think, more important that those who have these matters in hand should concentrate their attention upon
1042
the really suspicious sorts of people—those against whom there is any reason to suppose that they cherish not only hostile thoughts but the possibility of hostile action—than merely ticket large classes of persons as hostile because of their names or place of birth. These discussions are certainly not of a character of which we complain, and I have often said that I take no exception whatever to any noble Lord raising these matters in Parliament. It would be altogether absurd and improper for me to do so. But it is desirable, I venture to think, to see the different points in their proper perspective, and not to pay excessive attention to certain dangers which may not be so real as others of which the authorities are well aware but which do not strike the public eye quite so easily.
THE EARL OF CROMER: Is it proposed to pass a special Act laying down the functions and powers of these tribunals?
VISCOUNT BRYCE: My Lords, upon this part of the subject perhaps I may take this opportunity of addressing a question to the noble Marquess. Is it intended that any direction shall be given as to how those persons shall be dealt with who are technically Ottoman subjects but as to whom the presumption is that they are not enemies to us in this country but are in sympathy with us? Is it intended that any sort of direction should be given to the tribunal to discriminate between different kinds of Ottoman subjects? We read to-day in the Press that the Turks have been, as is their wont, massacring Armenian Christians in large numbers, and we may any day read that they have begun to massacre Greek Christians also in Asia Minor. Would it not be absurd to assume that because Armenians and Greeks from Asiatic Turkey are technically Ottoman subjects they are hostile to Great Britain? The presumption is all the other way. They are naturally our friends, being the victims of the Turkish enemy. I should also like to ask whether it is intended to ignore what has been done within the last few months by the War Office in liberating a certain number of aliens who had been interned some months ago. I happen to know that the War Office has taken great pains to investigate cases of perfectly harmless and well disposed persons who are technically alien enemies, some of whom had sons serving in His

1043
Majesty's Forces, and some of whom were able to prove that they had lived harmless lives. Will these people, most of whom are of a humble station in life, whose cases have already been investigated with great care by the War Office and who have been liberated, he obliged de novo to give an account of themselves and substantiate their claims before the new tribunals When the House reassembles perhaps the noble Marquess will be able to give us some idea of the method by which these inquiries will be conducted.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: In reply to my noble friend's last question, as to whether it will be necessary for those who have already been liberated from detention to give a fresh account of themselves, I do not like to give a quite positive answer but my impression is that it will. My impression is that in respect of this new departure the tribunal will be the only authority which is able to clean the slate, so to speak, of any particular individual. My noble friend will allow me to make this reservation, that that is my impression; I do not give it to him as a decision which has been made by Government. As regards the question put by my noble friend on the Cross Benches (Lord Cromer), which was carried further by my noble friend below the Gangway (Lord Bryce), it is intended that certain general principles should be laid down for the guidance of the tribunal.
THE EARL OF CROMER: By Act of Parliament?
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: On that I should rather like to postpone a reply. But it is intended that for the guidance of the tribunal certain general principles should be laid down. Among those general principles undoubtedly will be the careful consideration of the case of technical alien enemies such as those mentioned by my two noble friends, in favour of whom a strong prima facie case must be agreed to exist. To lock up an Armenian when a number of his compatriots had been massacred in Turkey seems to be a strange and anomalous proceeding. There are other Europeans, technical alien enemies—some Austrian Poles, for instance, and others—in whose favour a prima facie case would, I have no doubt, be held to exist. But perhaps it will satisfy the noble Earl if I say that this is a matter which will undoubtedly form the subject of a direction to the tribunal.

INDIAN SOLDIERS IN GERMANY.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON*EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON rose to ask the Secretary of State for India what steps are being taken by the India Office or any other official body to obtain information concerning the whereabouts and treatment of the Indian soldiers who are prisoners of war in Germany, and whether any measures have been adopted or are in contemplation for the supply of relief to these prisoners or the amelioration of their lot.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I am sorry to impose upon the noble Marquess the obligation of answering yet another Question this evening, but my observations in putting this Question will be sufficiently brief to enable him to escape the necessity of a long reply. I am sure the noble Marquess will not expect me to offer any apology for putting this Question. The matter is really one, as no one knows better than himself, of great importance—of importance in its effect on the sentiment and attitude of our Indian soldiers who are fighting at the Front, on the opinion of the Indian soldiers who are lying in such large numbers wounded in hospital in this country, and, still more, on the opinion that will be entertained in India when the war comes to an end. When that time arrives these Indian prisoners will return to their own country with tales, not merely of the sufferings they have undergone in Gennany—and one can well believe that, in a country where no one speaks their language and where the conditions of life and food are absolutely different, those sufferings may be very great—but also of the manner, successful or the reverse, in which the British Raj had intervened to ameliorate their sufferings or to procure their release.
I have no idea myself how many Indian prisoners there are in Germany at the present time, but if we may judge from the prominent part that the Indian Forces have played in the fighting from the start, and more especially during the past two months, from the degree to which they have been in the thick of the fighting, and from their share in the general casualties which have been so severe, one can imagine that there must be at least several thousands of Indian prisoners in Germany. We know nothing about them in this country. Their names are not even published in the lists of casualties that appear in the newspapers. I have been endeavouring

1045
for some time past to obtain information on the point. We have in this country a Committee, with which I am closely associated—the Indian Soldiers' Fund—which has raised, and which distributes, large sums of money for the sending out of comforts to our Indian soldiers at the Front and for the relief of the wounded at home. In our efforts to ascertain what we could do for the prisoners, we have since the beginning of the war succeeded in procuring only one list of Indian prisoners from the Prisoners of War Help Committee, a list which contained a little over 300 names. Apart from that we have been dependent entirely upon stray pieces of information which have reached us in letters from officers who are themselves prisoners in different parts of Germany. In such cases—lamentably few, as I admit they are—we have done what we could to send out relief and to provide remittances of money to these unhappy men.
But the point of my Question to the noble Marquess is this, that surely this obligation is one which ought not to rest on a private Committee, necessarily imperfectly supplied with information, but ought to be undertaken and discharged by the India Office itself. It may be that some organisation already exists for this purpose, but if it does not I would suggest to the noble Marquess that it might be well for him either to constitute a Committee in the India Office with special direction to this object, or, if there are any reasons for not doing that, he might take our Committee, or some other Committee outside, give them the requisite authority for dealing with the matter; and provide them with funds. Amid the great issues with which we are dealing this matter may seem of small importance, but in India, it is of great importance indeed. I feel that I may, therefore, in addressing this appeal to the noble Marquess, address it, not merely to his humanitarian instincts, which alone, I think, would impel him to move, but to the larger interests of the State which are directly involved.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I have, of course, no complaint of the noble Earl in raising this question of Indian prisoners of war, which is one which has given us, as he may well suppose, much concern. Various stories have reached us, both of exceptionally harsh treatment of Indian
1046
prisoners when captured, and of exceptionally kind treatment of Indian prisoners after their detention—the latter in hopes, it may be presumed, of winning their good will and of arousing discontent with British rule. The noble Earl, I think, is not accurate in stating that in all cases communication with Indian prisoners has been impossible in Germany. I believe, as a matter of fact, in some cases great pains have been taken to send Indian-speaking gentlemen to converse with them. But, as the noble Earl knows, we have had plenty of evidence in inquiries that have been made from time to time in Parliament of the fact that our general information about prisoners in Germany has been meagre. I do not know that we are much worse off, or indeed worse off, in respect of Indian prisoners than we are with respect to British prisoners in that regard.
From time to time the Government receive lists of prisoners in Germany, forwarded through the United States Ambassador. Those lists include a certain number of names of Indian prisoners, but we do not know, of course, what the total number of prisoners detained in Germany is; and therefore it is impossible to say whether the lists are anything like complete. So far as those lists have reached the War Office, to whom they are sent in the first instance, the names and the places of internment have been sent by them to the Prisoners of War Help Committee, to which the noble Earl alluded. That Committee is presided over by an old friend of mine with whom I was associated when he was Under-Secretary at the Colonial Office, Sir Charles Lucas, and anybody who knows him should know that, both in capacity and in sympathy, nobody could be better qualified than he to preside over an inquiry of that kind. The Prisoners of War Help Committee does all that it can, through the channels of the possible, for the amelioration of the lot of British prisoners in Germany. It equally undertakes inquiry into the lot of the Indian prisoners there. It is in regular touch with the India Office, and therefore it seems to me that there would be no object in appointing a fresh body or Committee for these purposes. All that we can do at my Office is to impress upon the Prisoners of War Help Committee the particular needs of the Indian prisoners, although, so far as I know, they have shown no disposition to neglect those in favour of other prisoners. If the noble Earl has

1047
any other information which he would desire to communicate, of course we should be most glad to get it at the India Office. But, so far as I know, anything that can be done is being done by this body; and I will do my best to see that they are kept up to the mark in doing what is possible. But I am by no means confident that very much can be done in the particular conditions which obtain in Germany for the amelioration of the lot of any particular set of prisoners.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: I am sorry to say that I am not satisfied with the noble Marquess's reply. I have no doubt that the Prisoners of War Help Committee does its best, but it is a Committee constituted for dealing with British prisoners of war. The conditions operating in regard to Indian prisoners of war are wholly different, and require to be dealt with by separate men with special knowledge and experience. The only thing which the Prisoners of War Help Committee has succeeded in furnishing to the Indian Soldiers' Fund is one list containing a little over 300 names. There must be thousands of Indian prisoners of war in Germany. That fact shows that the Committee have not at their hands at the present moment the resources necessary to enable them to cope with the matter. The noble Marquess says he will impress them with the importance of the case. Well and good; and I dare say something might be done by putting men of Indian knowledge and experience on that Committee. But the work would be better discharged by the India Office itself. The noble Marquess has in his Office several able Anglo-Indian officials, and I suggest to him to reconsider
1048
my point—namely, whether he might not direct some of these gentlemen to devote themselves exclusively to this matter. You will hear a great deal of this as time goes on, and any negligence—I am quite sure not intentional—will react terribly in India after the war.
The noble Marquess did not answer this question. When you have discovered where and who these prisoners are, what are you to do for them and who is to do it? The Fund with which I am connected, and which sits in my house, administers large sums of money, but I am not aware that it is our duty to make advances to Indian prisoners of war. We have, however, done so. We have sent out a sovereign to this man and so many rupees to another, but that is distinctly an obligation of Government. Therefore what I want the noble Marquess to do, if he wishes our Committee to act in this matter, is himself out of the resources at his disposal to provide us with the funds. The two points which I venture to submit to him for reconsideration are—first, the desirability of using the great influences he has at his disposal in the India Office to consider this matter specially; and, secondly, if he wishes us to deal with it in any way, to give us the funds to enable us to do so.

IMMATURE SPIRITS (RESTRICTION) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow (The Lord Strachie). (No. 77.)
House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Three o'clock.